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PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

PES methods for graphics aren't as good technical compared to EA but are more than double in effectiveness. EA's method will only really start to look stunning with the PS4 etc.. now, they all just look like cartoons, I'm sorry.

PES, unspectacular photo realistic old school method just looks much better and more true to life for me!

EA's faces do look more 'orgainc' but that's it, the overall effect is cartoony :(
 
Jamezinho said:
Player faces in PES2010 and PES2011 were stunning for the most part. I wouldn't worry too much about this department, Konami do a very good job with player faces.

The method of face creation in PES may be old-fashioned but it does allow for some fantastic option files full of new faces.
Click to expand...

How i say, maybe for this engine , it's optimal! They look.. Ok in most part,.. but.. there is one.. big .. but !
 
kobayashi said:
PES methods for graphics aren't as good technical compared to EA but are more than double in effectiveness. EA's method will only really start to look stunning with the PS4 etc.. now, they all just look like cartoons, I'm sorry.

PES, unspectacular photo realistic old school method just looks much better and more true to life for me!

EA's faces do look more 'orgainc' but that's it, the overall effect is cartoony :(
Click to expand...
Exactly. EA's method is very good and accurate, but they'll have to constantly travel around the world to shoot the players they want which leads to a deadlock.
Anyway, I don't know for you guys, but I've been very impressed by the face of...Alou Diarra (http://img.jeuxactus.com/datas/imag..._Soccer_2012/screenshots/xl/4e172f938b59a.jpg). I personally think his face in PES 2012 looks way better than in FIFA 11, where he actually had the 8-cameras method applied to him. It shows Konami can still make very faithful faces using their "old-school" method.
 
Ryuga-san said:
Exactly. EA's method is very good and accurate, but they'll have to constantly travel around the world to shoot the players they want which leads to a deadlock.
Click to expand...

That's really going to limit the amount of players they can scan, so it will probably only be players from a few big teams from each league, which I'm sure is expensive enough to do as it is.

PES can go a lot deeper than that with their faces. It's surprising how many players have real faces, even middle to lower teams have the odd real face here and there.
 
Ryuga-san said:
Exactly. EA's method is very good and accurate, but they'll have to constantly travel around the world to shoot the players they want which leads to a deadlock.
Anyway, I don't know for you guys, but I've been very impressed by the face of...Alou Diarra (http://img.jeuxactus.com/datas/imag..._Soccer_2012/screenshots/xl/4e172f938b59a.jpg). I personally think his face in PES 2012 looks way better than in FIFA 11, where he actually had the 8-cameras method applied to him. It shows Konami can still make very faithful faces using their "old-school" method.
Click to expand...

Now there lies a huge problem for EA. If they want like Konami who have really amassed a huge library of faces for so many players, they can't do this using their 8 high def camera method! Too much time and money needed to ship their crew here there and everywhere and money to pay the players and clubs to schedule a day to capture everyone.

They need to make sure they have a solid, in house method of capturing players faces realistically which can sit somewhat to an extent alongside their new face capture tech. It's certainly the future although it's still completely dwarfed by the tech used by rockstar with L.A Noire. Just not effective to build up a huge library
 
AntrAcsA said:
:) Yes, he is , he is.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k135/filianthur/FIFA_11_Benzema1.jpg?t=1281630109
or here
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_g851vbDBpdk/TBbbqJ7RuEI/AAAAAAAAEUo/eKyIWku-TiU/fifa11_chelski.jpg
They look like a real humans , that what i mean :)
Good night .
Click to expand...

EA are using high tech methods for capturing players faces in real time. EA has lots of videos showing how they are capturing the faces and as far as i remember, Fifa's faces are all fugly expect the ones done with their high end capturing tech. KONAMI are still doing a great job with their, but it is obvious that they are really getting behind the tech department.
 
Well there is the possibility once the tech is simplified enough that they can just send one bloke with a laptop and the software and he rents cameras on location. It's the same basic premise being used in LA Noire and the like, too, so it's tech that will become more and more readily available. But yes, it's unlikely you'll see a huge proportion of the faces being 'real'. Plus it means that the faces that aren't 'real' look pretty shoddy too, as there isn't the commitment to get it right.
 
don't really understand all the fuss about faces and shit. you will never see those faces when you're playing anyway, except for cut-scenes. face motion capture like in la noire is the biggest waste of time in a football game and i don't see that ever happening.

also ea's method is very uneconomical and inefficient. just like their other so called features like personality+ it only covers 1% of the players in the game with players in relatively top teams like udinese and palermo not even a single player has a proper non-generic face. it is a real shame. but everyone uses real madrid and chelsea in fifa so allow it.
 
Some of FIFA's faces are photo realistic for sure. Just the way they are taken. It is more like NBA 2k11-ish. To me, this face stuff is more like an art on how to blend it with other graphical aspects. To certain extent, having a photo realistic face is nice to see. But, in other hand having artificial kits, grass, stadium, lighting, facial expression, unknown player etc is a challenge to have overall balance in graphical attempts.

To me, what PES 2012 offers is a welcome and it blends better with other aspects, more balanced that's the key for me. For instance, having a player that not well designed to his real counterpart is no problem because the model it self blends well with more genuine looking player.

I was playing arsenal last night, pes 2011, looking at the players models i said wow konami is really really good painter to remake balanced human-like model. Enjoyable cutscene, goal celebration, player complaining etc. Again, because of the graphical balance.

Unless Konami can imitate all graphical aspects in ultra HD photo realistic way including how all single player moves differently in pitches, i hope they are not taking current fifa's attempt to just take ultra realistic still HD image. It will be soulless model :P.

To some cases, i agree if one says wow some pes 2012 faces have devil looks :JAY: at least it's soulful devil :SMUG: wtf i am talking :JAY:

But Fifa's player face model of certain team is good for advertising to wider audiences.
 
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when you have the most biggest FFIA fanboys saying 'ONLY THING GOOD IS PES IS GRAPHIC, EVERYTHING ELSE IS ROBOTIC, RUBBISH GAME! ARCADE.'

You know it's effective! I think it's best shown when you use HDMI for PS3 or HD with your xbox to play PES and FIFA, you see just how fantastic PES looks, and despite FIFA having the better tech and faces up close looking perfect for those with the 8 camera treatment, PES is optimized best for this generation, where as i feel EA's methods will only be truly amazing on the PS3 where the lighting effects and renders will be more powerful.

Then again it's only a rather small issue, it's just graphics, as long as they are solid, that's the most important thing!
 
Konami have only struggled with technologies on this gen because the technological jump between last gen and this one was huge, lots of completely new technologies. Japan (in general, not just Konami, not just PES) struggled because they weren't prepared for that. In fact, as history it self will tell you, in most cases Japan is the last to "get the memo". History will also tell you that once they get it, and get used to those new technologies, they'll eventually nail them and do better than other countries. That happened with graphics, seems to happening with gameplay, though they haven't managed to do with regarding animations... Don't think we're too far away from it tbh.

Problem is, those innovations now happen at an incredible fast rate, not easy to keep up. If the jump is similar between this gen and next one, I could see them struggle again..
 
Which is why Konami should look into expanding their horizons in order to stay on top of latest technologies. Employ western staff, set up a separate studio outside Japan, or sub-contract work to companies that can help them.

Game development is a much bigger operation these days.
 
_anderson said:
Konami have only struggled with technologies on this gen because the technological jump between last gen and this one was huge, lots of completely new technologies. Japan (in general, not just Konami, not just PES) struggled because they weren't prepared for that. In fact, as history it self will tell you, in most cases Japan is the last to "get the memo". History will also tell you that once they get it, and get used to those new technologies, they'll eventually nail them and do better than other countries. That happened with graphics, seems to happening with gameplay, though they haven't managed to do with regarding animations... Don't think we're too far away from it tbh.

Problem is, those innovations now happen at an incredible fast rate, not easy to keep up. If the jump is similar between this gen and next one, I could see them struggle again..
Click to expand...

What happened is that there where too many PES snobs about who paraded the game to be perfect around the key time of 2004 and early 2005 when the Xbox 360 was on the horizon, there wasn't enough request for Konami to innovate and truly evolve the game.

The wave of ignorance finally died in 2008! Thing is the issue was that EA sports developed a next generation engine in the year 2005 to run alongside the new consoles capabilities and specs. This is because EA has so many sports titles all could benefit for the investment.

PES is the only sports title Konami produces to the mass market and the only tittle which was in desperate need for technological innovation. They just didn't plan ahead.

They won't make the same mistake next time, we won't allow them to :))
 
_anderson said:
Konami have only struggled with technologies on this gen because the technological jump between last gen and this one was huge, lots of completely new technologies. Japan (in general, not just Konami, not just PES) struggled because they weren't prepared for that. In fact, as history it self will tell you, in most cases Japan is the last to "get the memo". History will also tell you that once they get it, and get used to those new technologies, they'll eventually nail them and do better than other countries. That happened with graphics, seems to happening with gameplay, though they haven't managed to do with regarding animations... Don't think we're too far away from it tbh.

Problem is, those innovations now happen at an incredible fast rate, not easy to keep up. If the jump is similar between this gen and next one, I could see them struggle again..
Click to expand...

Can we say for now future fox engine will probably benefit PES :)):
YouTube - Kojima Fox Engine: E3 2011 Demo
 
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_anderson said:
:CONFUSE:
:COAT:

The only one which has something strange in his face color is the one with the 3 italian guys, the one on the middle who I think is Aquilani
Click to expand...

Actually I think he's Matri. IMO, it doesn't really look like him.

But all the French players are perfectly reproduced, particularly Diarra and M'Vila (who already has the same face in PES 2011).
 
Ryuga-san said:
Actually I think he's Matri. IMO, it doesn't really look like him.

But all the French players are perfectly reproduced, particularly Diarra and M'Vila (who already has the same face in PES 2011).
Click to expand...

Yeah I recognize all the players except that one lol. I think you're right, face and body structure looks like Matri. Konami does that well too, the face may look generic but you can see it's him when in comparison.
 
_anderson said:
Konami have only struggled with technologies on this gen because the technological jump between last gen and this one was huge, lots of completely new technologies. Japan (in general, not just Konami, not just PES) struggled because they weren't prepared for that. In fact, as history it self will tell you, in most cases Japan is the last to "get the memo".
Click to expand...

I can't even begin to imagine what the basis for this argument even is. Apart from PES what other Japanese title can you suggest has struggled to get to grips with this gen? Arguably GT5 and its aesthetics but that's because they took the decision to spend so damn long making each individual premium car look perfect that they didn't factor in enough time for other things. In comparison it sounds like PES not only struggled slightly with optimising graphics but much moreso the general programming in many other aspects of the game. I can't think of too many other Japanese games where this was the case. What i'm trying to say is that the ineptitude of PES Productions is not inherently linked to the entirity of Japanese games development.
 
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kobayashi said:
when you have the most biggest FFIA fanboys saying 'ONLY THING GOOD IS PES IS GRAPHIC, EVERYTHING ELSE IS ROBOTIC, RUBBISH GAME! ARCADE.'
Click to expand...

Well in my experience Fifa fanboys actually think PES' graphics are terrible in comparison. It's a great insight into their mentality when you know that they're actually arguing against something almost visually objective rather than the subective merits of the gameplay. Especially the faces.

I acknowledge they might be unable to distinguish between animations and graphics though and made their judgement based on this, or at least i kind of hope they are.
 
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How many people here have actually calibrated their TV's and xbox/PS3 inputs? I have and it makes a big difference. I did it for my friend's TV's and their washed out FIFA colours look much easier on the eyes and PES looks more natural, which I think it is to begin with anyway. I think sometimes FIFA looks like you're watching a game on TV but PES feels like you're out there playing a game or watching from a good seat in the stands.

Anyway - re shooting for PES 2012. I agree with the last couple of comments. There's plenty of time to fix it and make it more "organic". I spent a few hours over the weekend playing FIFA 10 World Cup and I think it's got pretty good shooting physics. The ball swerves/bounces/dips quite well according to player's body position etc. Whether or not you can "learn" the shooting system in PES 11 or PES 12 is a separate matter - the ball should still behave like a real football.

If they can make it right for passing, crossing and free kicks, then they should be able to make it right (or a lot closer to right) for shooting. Again, it's not about body positioning, stats or whatever - all of which I think works decently for now - it's about how the ball trajectory reacts to those factors. Under pressure you might sky the shot or hit it well wide or stub it into the ground and it will roll to the keeper - but currently, the ball trajectory doesn't match the situation it tries to represent.

It seems quite rigid at the moment - having brilliant gameplay but disappointing shooting is like scoring a playboy bunny then finding out she only wants to cuddle...

p.s. to be honest, the more you play it, the more you realise there's quite a few animations on FIFA that are not as natural looking as PES.
 
triple tap should be taken away from the game. it spoils on line gaming. same goes with sliding tackle, it should be difficult to master and any mistake should be paid with a yellow or a red.

A few things: camera should move to player camera at penalty kick, if the penalty is deflected it should move back istantly to the camera of your choice. it would make penalties so much more exciting. We need to be able to select day or night for ML games. I can't play a ML with 99% games at night!

adn WHY ON EARTH THEY HAVEN'T CHANGED THE RUNNING ANIMATIONS? THEY SPOIL THE GAME FFS!

Anyway, gameplay is looking as solid as ever from what i've read. New ball physcis is very much needed!
 
I can no longer sit on the sidelines with this "realistic vs cartoony" RUBBISH any longer:

Uncanny valley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Repliee_Q2.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Repliee_Q2.jpg/200px-Repliee_Q2.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/a/aa/Repliee_Q2.jpg/200px-Repliee_Q2.jpg

I am an 3D tutor/lecturer and spent time in the animation industry, so I am qualified to point out a few things.

Of particular note is the graph in that link above - showing the HUGE fall in brain's acceptance of something seeming real...

EA looks to use photo-stitching techniques, vs Konami hand painting textures with some reference images used to a lesser degree inside the textures.

To back up the un-canny valley (above link) explanation:

a) EA's photo stitching is too close to real that people either reject it or accept it, NO in-between

b) Konami's interpretation suspends the viewer's belief of it being too real, thus people generally accept it on some level

c) Subtle facial animation and posing (again going for realism) can go un-noticed in some scenes, and looks poor if displayed at a small resolution, worse in replay slowed down (i.e. background players having facial poses is often un-noticed). The other factor is that our brains tend to throw away the subtle information because it is seen so often in real-life human interaction.

d) Extreme, or over the top facial animation and posing is easily seen in small resolutions and is memorable, but again, because the viewer interacts with real-life human faces so often, the believability in it seeming real is lessened.

So balance is indeed the most important thing when appealing to a wide audience, IMO.
 
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GraGra said:
I can no longer sit on the sidelines with this "realistic vs cartoony" RUBBISH any longer:

Uncanny valley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am an 3D tutor/lecturer and spent time in the animation industry, so I am qualified to point out a few things.

Of particular note is the graph in that link above - showing the HUGE fall in brain's acceptance of something seeming real...

EA looks to use photo-stitching techniques, vs Konami hand painting textures with some reference images used to a lesser degree inside the textures.

To back up the un-canny valley (above link) explanation:

a) EA's photo stitching is too close to real that people either reject it or accept it, NO in-between

b) Konami's interpretation suspends the viewer's belief of it being too real, thus people generally accept it on some level

c) Subtle facial animation and posing (again going for realism) can go un-noticed in some scenes, and looks poor if displayed at a small resolution, worse in replay slowed down (i.e. background players having facial poses is often un-noticed). The other factor is that our brains tend to throw away the subtle information because it is seen so often in real-life human interaction.

d) Extreme, or over the top facial animation and posing is easily seen in small resolutions and is memorable, but again, because the viewer interacts with real-life human faces so often, the believability in it seeming real is lessened.

So balance is indeed the most important thing when appealing to a wide audience, IMO.
Click to expand...

"EA's photo stitching is too close to real that people either reject it or accept it, NO in-between".

Are you suggesting EA's graphics 'look too close to real' and so the brain either sees this for what it is, or misinterprets it as 'cartoony' because it looks too realistic?

If so, what a load of rubbish. FIFA player models look anything but realistic, for starters the players' physiques are still wrong, and the faces look plastic, like waxwork dummies. They look cartoonish in a pixar pre-rendered kind of way, which is why the generic players tend to look like zombies. That article is very interesting, but I really don't think it applies to the graphics in these two games. They're still primitive at best.

Photo stitching my arse.
 
Some of the FIFA face "models" are indeed photo-realistic, because, well, they ARE photos, 3D photos. The problem is, the expressions on players faces are still, for some reason, almost not existent, making having a photo-realistic face model useless 'cause players expressions are too basic.

In fact, they don't just look basic, they look wrong, eyes wide spread most of the time, mouth open in a retarded way... Also, FIFA player models still look "wrong". And I'm saying "still" because when I look at FIFA screens, I can see some of the characteristics that were present in the PS2 days, strange arm position, players turning their head strangely. But this happens because the models (for the most part, since last year they finally introduced different model types, built around a small number of players, specifically for them) are not adequate.

The "waxy" look some refer too is down to a)Faces that aren't "3d-photographed" have too basic textures. Plus the rest of the player model, on nearly all players, have those same basic textures. This happens in PES too for the majority of unknown players but point b) makes the difference; b)Although much improved, lighting still isn't up to scratch in FIFA when it comes to it's effect on players, stuff like shadows, and overall dynamics.

This ends up being quite ironic since FIFA is the one with all the technology, but they still manage to fail in some of the crucial points. PES lighting is superb since PES 2010, plus overall great player models and textures... All it's lacking is proper animations...
 
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