PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

mfmaxpower said:
Maybe Konami realized limitations exist in trying to have the CPU predict when and where to make runs, and so here we are. We are still severely limited with this gen's tech of how well we can represent real world intelligence and variety, so maybe Konami saw the lesser of two evils to be giving the player greater control of how their teams play. Giving the gamer as much control as possible is one of the major trends of this gen's sports titles, so this ultimately shouldn't be that big a surprise.
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That doesn't really wash though. We've been told from numerous sources just how fantastic and far evolved the AI is in PES2012, and that team mates are constantly making intelligent runs and offering themselves in space to receive the ball.

Thus this new inclusion doesn't stack up. It's not needed. Even Adam said that after a couple of games him and Suff didn't bother using this as they felt it hampered the good the AI was doing. That's comforting to read, at least.

Edit - sorry for the Adam reference.
 
mancan said:
YouTube - Fifa 2004 Trailer
Skip to 2:20 this is how fifa implemented it. But the AI of the defence was horrible so it could be terribly exploited. I just hope it nothing like this.
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just watched this.
FIFA has been lying for years now and i thought that this was something that Mr Rutter started.
still this new option was something FIFA tried there has to have been a good reason why they canceled it.
lets hope KONAMI implements it in such a way that we can all say "why the hell were we concerned?".
 
Well I do think he's been a nice guy when I've met him. I wasn't airing the dirty laundry here to try and bitch on him - I was just surprised by that turn of events.

As far as the forum in general, obviously nothing compares to EW so it's unfair to really expect so much ;)
 
Jamezinho said:
That doesn't really wash though. We've been told from numerous sources just how fantastic and far evolved the AI is in PES2012, and that team mates are constantly making intelligent runs and offering themselves in space to receive the ball.

Thus this new inclusion doesn't stack up. It's not needed. Even Adam said that after a couple of games him and Suff didn't bother using this as they felt it hampered the good the AI was doing. That's comforting to read, at least.

Edit - sorry for the Adam reference.
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Yeah, I'm not particularly convinced by my argument either. But while you - and you're not alone - are saying "it's not needed," obviously Seabass disagrees. Off the ball movement was a big issue last year, and despite a supposed massive upgrade to the AI, many -MANY- people were asking for some form of run trigger.

But considering that Konami have explicitly marketed that they are targeting hardcore fans with 2012, I think we should still be able to feel confident that they wouldn't add a noob feature that totally compromises gameplay for the rest of us.
 
As all the concerns have already been covered here I share my thoughts
about the presentation.

The videos are hazy, it looks like if the contrast were set to 30% and overall they leave a very amateurish impression.

I hope that the nite lighting looks nothing like on these videos.

Even the leaked shitty phone videos looked much better lighting wise.

KONAMI never learns how to advertise their game.

Also the very long press release is fishy.. Let the game speak for it selves.

Show us real gameplay on high difficulty, beautiful goals scored using the newly implemented features, instead of some dodgy, prepared situations.

Do not misinterpret my words. I'm very excited after watching the leaked game play footage, but it annoys me, how poorly KONAMI is promoting themselves.

They had requested to remove the leaked footage, and showed us something, that looks far worst.

IMO only.

Cheers. Bring on October.
 
bonyi said:
As all the concerns have already been covered here I share my thoughts
about the presentation.

The videos are hazy, it looks like if the contrast were set to 30% and overall they leave a very amateurish impression.

I hope that the nite lighting looks nothing like on these videos.

Even the leaked shitty phone videos looked much better lighting wise.

KONAMI never learns how to advertise their game.

Also the very long press release is fishy.. Let the game speak for it selves.

Show us real gameplay on high difficulty, beautiful goals scored using the newly implemented features, instead of some dodgy, prepared situations.

Do not misinterpret my words. I'm very excited after watching the leaked game play footage, but it annoys me, how poorly KONAMI is promoting themselves.

They had requested to remove the leaked footage, and showed us something, that looks far worst.

IMO only.

Cheers. Bring on October.
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Yeah I know, Konami can't even get their colors right in videos. This has been happening since Konami is responsible for their own youtube channels and vids, weird ass, washed out color-pallets completely different from the actual game. Happens with trailers too, check the last few E3/Gamescom PES trailers.

They're a real mess when it comes to PR lol.
 
Jamezinho said:
That doesn't really wash though. We've been told from numerous sources just how fantastic and far evolved the AI is in PES2012, and that team mates are constantly making intelligent runs and offering themselves in space to receive the ball.

Thus this new inclusion doesn't stack up. It's not needed. Even Adam said that after a couple of games him and Suff didn't bother using this as they felt it hampered the good the AI was doing. That's comforting to read, at least.

Edit - sorry for the Adam reference.
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Actually some reviews here in France weren't very amazed by the AI. Some of them said they saw a difference, but also stated they would need many more hours to really judge it.

Anyway, players in France are quite satisfied by the recent trigger runs announcement, there's a real contrast between people here at evo-web and on a famous PES related french forum.
 
romagnoli said:
Well I do think he's been a nice guy when I've met him. I wasn't airing the dirty laundry here to try and bitch on him - I was just surprised by that turn of events.

As far as the forum in general, obviously nothing compares to EW so it's unfair to really expect so much ;)
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Yeah Rom i saw you're quest to preach to the masse's, well done for standing your ground. I think sometimes its hard to derail a hype train that at times today was hitting record speeds. :LOL: But what i didnt like was the attitude that we are a moaning bunch of so & so's. :RANT: people should visit this site more often then they wont make judgements like that.

And to prove i am not bitter, what time is the poddie up?
 
Bloody speculation is killing me. Lami my friend you need to really take a hard look at these features and report back mate.
I need to know how this affects the game overall. As long as there is a balance to attack and defence and a consequence to pushing a DMF up the pitch I am happy.

Surely king seabass will not move away from his philosophy? Surely?

A simple thing like a legitimate stamina system would do so much. Sure, run like a mad man but expect your players that have covered kilometers to not be able to go the distance and become fatigued later in the game.
 
Buzzyhead said:
But what i didnt like was the attitude that we are a moaning bunch of so & so's. :RANT: people should visit this site more often then they wont make judgements like that.
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We don't believe everything we're spoon fed and like to question things. That's what I like about Evo-Web. I think the crowd here is generally very mature and willing to have in-depth, intelligent discussions, not always the case with other PES forums.

No-one likes us, we don't care!
 
Jamezinho said:
We don't believe everything we're spoon fed and like to question things. That's what I like about Evo-Web. I think the crowd here is generally very mature and willing to have in-depth, intelligent discussions, not always the case with other PES forums.

No-one likes us, we don't care!
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hopefully our outspoken and intelligent views will not make konami change their mind about lami getting his preview copy in the post:CONFUSE:
 
Ryuga-san said:
Actually some reviews here in France weren't very amazed by the AI. Some of them said they saw a difference, but also stated they would need many more hours to really judge it.

Anyway, players in France are quite satisfied by the recent trigger runs announcement, there's a real contrast between people here at evo-web and on a famous PES related french forum.
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i don't think it's problem to call the site by its name :P
on wearepes French players are excited to this new feature, in Italy there is mild concern, in England high concern
Does this show they all have different football gaming conception?
 
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Ryuga-san said:
Actually some reviews here in France weren't very amazed by the AI. Some of them said they saw a difference, but also stated they would need many more hours to really judge it.

Anyway, players in France are quite satisfied by the recent trigger runs announcement, there's a real contrast between people here at evo-web and on a famous PES related french forum.
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I don't thing there are members there like we have hear like Jimmy, Romagnoi etc.. the bonafide hardcore.

I heard in the french community they where heavily opposed to removing the D-Pad.

Also, I'm worried about Jimmy, me, and others here have been very disappointed by the news, i think Jimmy might had gone and topped himself!

It's going to kill online play when i see players buying average players like Agbonglahor and making them move and find space as if they are Ruud van Nistlerooy in his prime :RANT:

Ameppe said:
i don't think it's problem to call it by name
on wearepes French players are excited to this new feature, in Italy there is mild concern, in England high concern
Does this show they all have different football gaming conception?
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Yes, that's my point. I think many of that french community plays FIFA on manual as well. (Kalexo)
 
Ameppe said:
i don't think it's problem to call it by name
on wearepes French players are excited to this new feature, in Italy there is mild concern, in England high concern
Does this show they all have different football gaming conception?
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Maybe...
What's sure is that the debates we have here at evo-web aren't present on wearepes. The priorities are clearly not the same.
 
tbh i don't like french pes community
they would like pes to be more like fifa...

Anyway regarding this feature
one word:useless
i will never use it offline, i feel it will be like cheating
if online this will make cheaters unstoppable, i will send Jon Murphy a kind :RANT: message on twitter to make him understand how much i love this "feature"
 
Again, other than having a go at that guy who said we were trying to be fashionable, I was just doing what we do here. I wasn't trying to prove anything or be a Jimmy Big Nuts.

Our playtest is actually round Adam's so I wouldn't be doing myself any favours to pick fights or anything (that's not why I think he's a nice guy btw!). I just didn't see that I'd done anything that wasn't par for the course here.
 
romagnoli said:
Again, other than having a go at that guy who said we were trying to be fashionable, I was just doing what we do here. I wasn't trying to prove anything or be a Jimmy Big Nuts.
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No need for an explanation Rom i knew where you was coming from, looking back at my post i may have been a bit fast & loose with the word "preach" :LOL: this may have mislead you.
 
I'm passive about this new feature. It'll either not work & there'll be a massive outcry, Jon Murphy will develop a sweat so strong that his aviators will slip off his ears and there'll be a patch to tone it down / ramp up the AI. Or, it'll work and we'll either use it or not. Hopefully there will be an option to remove it from the controls completely for the folk who end up hating it. Plus online, an option to allow it or not in a forthcoming match / tournament.

Still excited about the rest of the game, loving how challenge training is back (I really could have done with it in PES2011 to be honest!). Hope there's news to come on possible Edit Mode additions and / or Stadium Editor upgrades.

Not sure whether to stick with playing PES on the laptop, or buy it on PS3. When I get on my laptop I've always got work to do, but the modding is far superior. On the other hand, the PS3 is available many hours a day! Decisions, decisions...
 
Ameppe said:
tbh i don't like french pes community
they would like pes to be more like fifa...
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Yes, you're right. I'm part of this community but I don't share all their ideas. But it's true that many old french PES players have become huge FIFA fans and maybe unconsciously, they want it to be more FIFA-ish with trigger runs etc.
 
YouTube - PES 2012 Gameplay - Teammate Assisted [HD]

just looking at that again makes me think that the cpu ai will cover the spaces if set up correctly, the france team in that vid is playing a 2-5-2-1 formation which is laughable. im hoping konami couldnt show how the system worked with a normal 4-4-2 as the defender ai would have stopped the run dead

its also good to see the linesman doesnt flag anymore for players not interfering with play,check Fábio Coentrão's run and then check to get back onside when the ball is played
 
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goalgerd said:
YouTube - PES 2012 Gameplay - Teammate Assisted [HD]

just looking at that again makes me think that the cpu ai will cover the spaces if set up correctly, the france team in that vid is playing a 2-5-2-1 formation which is laughable. im hoping konami couldnt show how the system worked with a normal 4-4-2 as the defender ai would have stopped the run dead
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Too many people coming to conclusions. On that clip the defending team is playing with a deep back 2, and likely being on the lowest difficulty setting. As I mentioned before, Konami would be better off letting everyone know what set-up they have used when giving us demostration videos so it's all clear.
 
I have just played FIFA 09 demo on slow and my God the possibilities! I have missed a lot of football action since I decided to stick with PES 2011. I could finally play a lob cross (L2+cross), use right stick to send the ball forward and actually stand on the ball and shield it unlike when I tried to stop with R2 in PES and my player would usually continue running!!

I almost scored a goal in which I played a medium cross to the edge of the box and one of my midfielder received it with his chest which gave him advantage over the defender who actually couldn't get to the ball and BOOM rocket shot!! Unfortunately it was saved by the super goal keeper.

I am surprised I could do a lot of stuff in FIFA "09" which I can't make in PES "2011", or precisely PES feels dull. If I had that chance in PES, my player would likely stand still for a moment after receiving the cross and the defender would run into the ball before my player gets to again probably!

I just posted this here because I find that I demand a lot of variety in PES 2012. Doesn't anyone here find PES lacking in that matter?
 
goalgerd said:
YouTube - PES 2012 Gameplay - Teammate Assisted [HD]

just looking at that again makes me think that the cpu ai will cover the spaces if set up correctly, the france team in that vid is playing a 2-5-2-1 formation which is laughable. im hoping konami couldnt show how the system worked with a normal 4-4-2 as the defender ai would have stopped the run dead

its also good to see the linesman doesnt flag anymore for players not interfering with play,check Fábio Coentrão's run and then check to get back onside when the ball is played
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Hah, good eye. Was it that hard to do it they needed to change tactics around, so much they made it look too effective?
 
It's not ideal having triggered runs, but I think people are getting a bit carried away...

Weeks ago, everyone was loving what we were hearing about PES 2012 and praising Konami's approach, now after this one announcement, people are crucifying them...

Despite the AI improvements, I think it will still fall well short of achieving realistic player positioning and movement on it's own...

I'd rather have the ability to override stupid AI decision making than put up with it and have it ruin the experience.

It's up to the mechanics of the game to balance it out - if someone starts running loads of players forward, some solid defending and smart passing should give you a great chance to threaten on the break.

Also when you look at the individuality, I think people exaggerate the effect this control would bring - in real football, if you take fullbacks for example, attacking fullbacks bomb forward a lot because they're good at it; they are usually quick, athletic players who are comfortable in possession and can distribute the ball well.
If you try making a more physical, defensive-minded, less technically-gifted fullback bomb down the wings, your progress should be halted much more easily, so it wouldn't be of any advantage to use that option
Same with making big target men play on the shoulder of the last defender trying to run in behind, defensive players joining attacks etc. it just shouldn't pay off, meaning you'd end up having to try using it in a realistic way to actually gain from it.

I don't really think the AI will be deep enough in PES 2012 to make individual strikers movement up front noticeably different, the only things in PES 2011 which made a big difference were the "Goal Poacher" and "Fox in the Box" cards. Until the AI is actually at a very advanced and realistic level can this feature be considered a great detriment to the individuality.

It shouldn't ruin online play, in fact it should give the "footballers" like us more of an advantage if anything.
 
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Ryuga-san said:
Yes, you're right. I'm part of this community but I don't share all their ideas. But it's true that many old french PES players have become huge FIFA fans and maybe unconsciously, they want it to be more FIFA-ish with trigger runs etc.
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There's some dude called kalexo or something there.

Remember having an argument with him last year and he didn't really seem to care much about individuality. he was all concerned about freedom and instant turning etc..

I don't understand why they would want PES to just be a FIFA clone. If they prefer FIFA that's fine but how will PES improve by being a fifa clone? I simply do not get people with this attitude.

I very concerned. I'm worried that PES 2012 will turn into the letdown that FIFA 09 was by going too far with the responsiveness and now this with player runs again going way too far.

I'm also very concerned at the amount of control Puyol had while dribbling in the long 38 minute video. He didn't seem to have that slow turning cycle which is one of main reasons i've enjoyed PES 2011. It teaches you to use players to their strengths and not to do anything fancy with players of a poor technical standard. just like with FIFA 08 to 09, responsiveness was an issue so instead of JUST sorting out the bad transitions and cutting down on players being stuck in animation cycles, they make every player totally and instantaneously responsive and make all players run the same way.

If I'm not impressed with the demo, i just give up with football games for the time being!
 
klashman69 said:
There's some dude called kalexo or something there.

Remember having an argument with him last year and he didn't really seem to care much about individuality. he was all concerned about freedom and instant turning etc..

I don't understand why they would want PES to just be a FIFA clone. If they prefer FIFA that's fine but how will PES improve by being a fifa clone? I simply do not get people with this attitude.

I very concerned. I'm worried that PES 2012 will turn into the letdown that FIFA 09 was by going too far with the responsiveness and now this with player runs again going way too far.

I'm also very concerned at the amount of control Puyol had while dribbling in the long 38 minute video. He didn't seem to have that slow turning cycle which is one of main reasons i've enjoyed PES 2011. It teaches you to use players to their strengths and not to do anything fancy with players of a poor technical standard. just like with FIFA 08 to 09, responsiveness was an issue so instead of JUST sorting out the bad transitions and cutting down on players being stuck in animation cycles, they make every player totally and instantaneously responsive and make all players run the same way.

If I'm not impressed with the demo, i just give up with football games for the time being!
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Bold part, ask people like mancan who played the game @PesRankings, players like Puyol turn very slowly. I've seen someone complaining about that (saying it was too slow) too.
 
In the video the guy was messing about with puyol for a bit and he was able to acheive the same level of close control i see in PES 2011 with a player like Schwienstieger or Fabregas, literally. he kept doing that heel cutback thing while Turing to try and fool a defender (he lost the ball in the end) but he just had way to much control. Didn't notice a substantial PES 2011 like difference between the players in the video to be honest.

Adam said he turned slower compared to others but Adam's definition of slow could be a lot different to what i see as slow.
 
klashman69 said:
In the video the guy was messing about with puyol for a bit and he was able to acheive the same level of close control i see in PES 2011 with a player like Schwienstieger or Fabregas, literally. he kept doing that heel cutback thing while Turing to try and fool a defender (he lost the ball in the end) but he just had way to much control. Didn't notice a substantial PES 2011 like difference between the players in the video to be honest.

Adam said he turned slower compared to others but Adam's definition of slow could be a lot different to what i see as slow.
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Didn't talked about Adam at all :P Seriously, ask mancan when he's around.

These videos are speeded up due to several factors (you're recording 60fps footage from a screen with a crappy phone with bad lighting that can only record 30fps max, then uploaded to Youtube, all that summed up should be a speed increase of 200%) and may give you the impression reactions are instant for every player. Tunizizou is other guy from these boards that can tell you the same thing.
 
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