PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

[romagnoli]

Fair enough - I see what you mean. But number 10 is a playmaker, not a run into space guy. When have you ever seen Totti or Baggio run harder than they have to LOL.

Exactly my point. If you're able to make Classic #10's run around the pitch like madmen, then they aren't playing like #10's.


I appreciate the point about not being able to control these runs all the time via the manual option. Or rather, I do now - the videos made it look very easy to get three or four people darting about in various directions. I was just clarifying why we were perfectly justified to be very worried about loss of individuality.

 

[Ameppe]

Doesn't people online use "trigger run" anyway with the pass and run button? I think it has been mentioned already, but it's not like playing online currently gives you a realistic experience. I don't think people will notice any difference, it will probably just mean a little less pass-and-run exchanged with trigger runs.

I wonder what happen if you take a second player (manually) and running just in front of him, obstructing oncoming opposition, if it will actually be a freekick against you.

good point
in fact in online master league nowadays many people uses one-twos where one of the players makes a run and through passes
now i feel a little more relieved

 

[Autogolazo]

Exactly my point. If you're able to make Classic #10's run around the pitch like madmen, then they aren't playing like #10's.


I appreciate the point about not being able to control these runs all the time via the manual option. Or rather, I do now - the videos made it look very easy to get three or four people darting about in various directions. I was just clarifying why we were perfectly justified to be very worried about loss of individuality.

There isn't loss of individuality if you don't bother using the feature. The player cards and mentality will still have the same importance as it did before.

Of course though people are justified to being worried but we do have a say whether we want to use it or not. And as long as it's not overpowered then I don't see why it's such a big issue.

 

[theCRO]

@ Lami. Well obviously but you are like minded and sort of understand our angle. So it will be a good indication if what to expect. But you're right we will have to make up our own minds and in some instances it takes days/ weeks/ months to get to grips with things.

@calcio, I play PES2011 a hell of a lot and have come to understand the games finer details like how to get defenders to push up and which areas they have a tendency to move into. I am just concerned that this trait or individuality is now lost because I can make any defender run up the field like Daniel Alves or Maicon. So if I am playing master league does this mean I no longer need to search for a player with the right stats for my team?
Or does it mean that I can have one universal formation regardless of the team I am using because I can get players to play one formation and dictate where they move?
The beauty of PES is how each team has its own style and you need to understand their style and players to use them effectively.
As stated enough times already we need to see this in action for ourselves before writing it off but in my opinion, at face value, it is a move away from PES philosophy.

Excellent post.

I think this could potentially be a GAME BREAKING flaw if the defensive awareness is even slightly off in most situations. I'm afraid that fter a few months play the hardcore 'gamers' will figure out a formation and a few simple ways to make an unmarked run and putt a through ball which is unstoppable unless defensive AI covers the runner perfectly.

I don't trust Konami to create defensive awareness which will actively follow the runner at an angle relative to the pass which is about to be played.

Worst case scnerio, the messi/ronaldo whores play some awkward formation which guarantees them playing the ball into a semi-dangerous position on the side and initiating their messi/ronaldo to run unmarked for the 1v1 nearly everytime.

Which would in turn mean that all of their attacks will be geared to this particular play or a few others which are similar.

That would be game breaking online, an absolute travesty.

I hate to even think about it.

 

[romagnoli]

There isn't loss of individuality if you don't bother using the feature. The player cards and mentality will still have the same importance as it did before.

Of course though people are justified to being worried but we do have a say whether we want to use it or not. And as long as it's not overpowered then I don't see why it's such a big issue.

We seem to be going round in circles. The 'it's just an option' argument doesn't hold water if the people you play against online use it. If the other guy can make his #10 run around like a maniac then the experience is just as damaged.

Before somebody says 'well it's up to you to exploit the gaps they leave', I don't find beating a run trigger spammer 7-0 any more enjoyable than being beaten by a run trigger spammer. Well, maybe a bit! But it still isn't football, and it's not a victory for football as much as having a match against a random player who happens to play the game properly.


Again, I'm a lot less concerned now than I was yesterday. I'm just satin the above because tree are a lot of counter arguments flying around that just don't hold up to scrutiny.

 

[BigZombieMonkey]

I don't know, football games for me have been wholly unsatisfying on this generation of consoles, and I get the feeling old-fashioned football game purists like myself and most others here are not the target market for these games any more. I'm slowly drifting away from the genre with each passing year if I'm honest.

I don't get this statement. Have you played any football games from the previous generation of consoles recently? I have and I can assure you they are dire in comparison so why would you mention the generation since the previous generation was worse.

PES5 is a nostalgia whore, you remember it as the perfect game but in realism when you go back and play it the game lacks a stupid amount of vital features, AI etc

I'll put this part of your post down to frustration as I agree this feature was an unnecessary addition and does defeat player individuality but this generation of consoles easily have the best football games and wishing to go backwards is not something I wish to do at 30 years of age lol

Can we not talk about bloody Adam from WENB so much? He may be a useful source of news from time to time, but the guy's a total bellend who spends his online life surrounded by yapping 14 year old sycophants telling him he's The Man (for no particular reason), and he gets arsey when he's spoken to any other way. That weird cult of personality thing spills over into the forums, and it's why no actual debate is possible there. Let's just stick to talking about the game

Bit harsh, I've met the guy and he's a nice guy and has some good thoughts at times.

YouTube - PES 2012 Gameplay - Teammate Assisted [HD]

just looking at that again makes me think that the cpu ai will cover the spaces if set up correctly, the france team in that vid is playing a 2-5-2-1 formation which is laughable. im hoping konami couldnt show how the system worked with a normal 4-4-2 as the defender ai would have stopped the run dead

its also good to see the linesman doesnt flag anymore for players not interfering with play,check Fábio Coentrão's run and then check to get back onside when the ball is played

My main concern in that video is how Frances 2-5-2-1 formation doesn't adapt. I mean the 5 are in a perfect line and rarely break that despite strikers running into space between the two behind. With new AI for attacking where is the AI for defending as at least one of those 5 should be covering runs being made or at least dropping into the space to cut out a simple through ball.

One of my biggest pet hates about FIFA is how static players can be in situations where in real life a sensible player would read the situation and break the formation for the better of the team, it seems from that video that PES is suffering a similar problem with manual off the ball runs.

Listening to the podcast and remembering from the game menus (they have a place for a faceshot), it seems to me that you will create your own Pro player like in FIFA. And you'll get points for your player when you do stuff in Challenge mode. If they do this, the "Epic" news that Adam talked about (Football Life I guess) is probably about a Clubs mode or something similar. The only thing that goes against this theory is their record of having shit network code. But I think they really need to try their own Clubs mode since it is so popular in FIFA.

In all fairness if Konami introduce a clubs mode for PES I'll most definetly play it more as this is my key area of interest with FIFA (that and being able to play as Bristol City ).

Clubs on FIFA took a massive hit this year due to poor servers and so on and many people within the clubs community have already stated "If PES has clubs I'll be switching", maybe this is something Konami picked up on when FIFA was released and clubs was literally broken. Either way, it's something that would interest me greatly as I'd finally be able to play PES the way I want to, online as part of a team rather than a small group.

 

[Ameppe]

We seem to be going round in circles. The 'it's just an option' argument doesn't hold water if the people you play against online use it. If the other guy can make his #10 run around like a maniac then the experience is just as damaged.

Before somebody says 'well it's up to you to exploit the gaps they leave', I don't find beating a run trigger spammer 7-0 any more enjoyable than being beaten by a run trigger spammer. Well, maybe a bit! But it still isn't football, and it's not a victory for football as much as having a match against a random player who happens to play the game properly.


Again, I'm a lot less concerned now than I was yesterday. I'm just satin the above because tree are a lot of counter arguments flying around that just don't hold up to scrutiny.

online matches against random people have always been the farthest experience from football, in every football game
cheaters will always find a way to exploit a game's weak points to their advantage
the choice is
accept this fact and play a fake football match or play with friends and enjoy the most from online experience

 

[romagnoli]

Spike, the AI there is on the lowest difficulty setting so there is no tracking of runs. The guy on the ball could have just waltzed through without passing.

Ameppe - I don't think that has to be true. For quite a while before the triple tap and speed merchant types really settled in, I thought MLO in PES 2011 was great online, even against randoms. The 'just play against friends' line is too defeatist for me - people say the same about FIFA as a counter to people saying that it is unrealistic and doesn't play like football. It's not a solution, it's ignoring the problem.

 

[Autogolazo]

We seem to be going round in circles. The 'it's just an option' argument doesn't hold water if the people you play against online use it. If the other guy can make his #10 run around like a maniac then the experience is just as damaged.

Before somebody says 'well it's up to you to exploit the gaps they leave', I don't find beating a run trigger spammer 7-0 any more enjoyable than being beaten by a run trigger spammer. Well, maybe a bit! But it still isn't football, and it's not a victory for football as much as having a match against a random player who happens to play the game properly.


Again, I'm a lot less concerned now than I was yesterday. I'm just satin the above because tree are a lot of counter arguments flying around that just don't hold up to scrutiny.

Fair point. There's nothing you can do about online unless you play with people you know otherwise you'll come across idiots who have stupid formations and don't play anything that resembles football. I don't get satisfaction beating players like this, it's why I hardly bother with online anymore.

 

[Dryzer]

So is there any news on bringing broadcast camera back in its original form? Not the weird one from last year where it swings about at each end?

 

[Dryzer]

Can we not talk about bloody Adam from WENB so much? He may be a useful source of news from time to time, but the guy's a total bellend who spends his online life surrounded by yapping 14 year old sycophants telling him he's The Man (for no particular reason), and he gets arsey when he's spoken to any other way. That weird cult of personality thing spills over into the forums, and it's why no actual debate is possible there. Let's just stick to talking about the game.

Although to be honest, I'm not sure how much there is to say until we see more - this new feature could either be great or it could ruin the game, impossible to tell from what's been shown so far.

Agree Pere. The fact that he is called 'The Pes Messiah' makes me wince.

 

[Lami]

Since the whole point is about showing off their "Teammate Controls", they've most probably set the AI to the lowest, and the defense to the minimum so that they can show off the goods easily without struggle.

And of course, it came at the expense of the defensive part of the game, which we shouldn't be concentrating too much on in these videos, simply because from a marketing point of view, that's not what the video is about.

If we want to talk about the defensive AI, then we should take a look at the videos talking about it. I'm pretty sure they've already mentioned and emphasized how improved it is this year, and how it works. Combine both together and you should get the big picture.

 

[Thespeedster84]

If it is true that many people want this trigger button in PES, personally, i would just accept it as it is. Look at quite many comments over the internet, many people welcome it.

In addition, the minority/majority talks will arise at some point. But, sure there is still a chance mentality attribute can come into equation besides physicality without having to remove the feature many people most likely would like to have.

It is about "minority" putting their ideas that majority would love to see too.

 

[klashman69]

I played in defence but could also play in midfield or up front. They're world class footballers - why would it matter that a player is a defender? They CAN have amazing technique. Not all but some do. If they had bad first touch, they'd be conceding a lot more goals

No, seriously, they are world class, but world class with their defensive positioning and tackling, they aren't world class on the ball. With many top defenders their technique is really at times no better than part time players.

I've played as an center back too. You do get ball playing center backs but any of the best partners i worked with were big, no nonsense old fashioned ones with little or no technique.

One of things i really enjoyed in PES 2011 and even though the idea was good and the execution was rather robotic, was dubbed the 'grandad turn'. There aren't too many 'ball playing center backs' at the top level. You have Lucio, Pique, Ferdinand, Vermaelen, Kompany (heavily versatile)

There others like Kosceilny, Kolo Toure etc..

Even top center Backs like Vidic, Puyol, Nesta, Pepe who have modest technique. You watch them on the ball, they do not try anything fancy, no sharp turns or feints whatsoever. I mean Puyol does play at right back at times where he started out but again he won't try anything remotely fancy because he dosen't have the technique and the precision required when on the ball.

Of all the center backs i mentioned. Vermaelen, Pique and Kompany are pretty comfortable on the ball. while I'd say Lucio is the only one who could take it past 2-3 players and even score from a run.

That's what i love about PES. Knowing you players limits on the ball. With FIFA. at times it's ridiculous when you could take it past 6-7 with ease with a center back because they can turn like anybody else. I even stuck a keeper upfront and he could turn on a six pence.

With my Master league team in Sunderland, i have been trying to change their playing style and buy center backs with good technique (above 75 and approaching 80) So i can play like Arsenal, where most if not every player is comfortable on the ball. I don't want a game in which even players like Ryan Neilsen who is a great center back but has no technique being able to turn with ease.

Just saying it' very, very important for me. It really brings out huge individuality in ball handling. Even for players like Sessengion who has amazing stats for everything apart from.. wait for it.. technique (78)! So you can run at players with him and beat them, try tricks. but you can't get away with doing those lightning turns that you can with Robben, or Messi etc.. He's a very typical sort of African player. Great pace, power and all round game but his technique is a little lacking!

 

[Ryuga-san]

There's some dude called kalexo or something there.

Remember having an argument with him last year and he didn't really seem to care much about individuality. he was all concerned about freedom and instant turning etc..

I don't understand why they would want PES to just be a FIFA clone. If they prefer FIFA that's fine but how will PES improve by being a fifa clone? I simply do not get people with this attitude.

I very concerned. I'm worried that PES 2012 will turn into the letdown that FIFA 09 was by going too far with the responsiveness and now this with player runs again going way too far.

I'm also very concerned at the amount of control Puyol had while dribbling in the long 38 minute video. He didn't seem to have that slow turning cycle which is one of main reasons i've enjoyed PES 2011. It teaches you to use players to their strengths and not to do anything fancy with players of a poor technical standard. just like with FIFA 08 to 09, responsiveness was an issue so instead of JUST sorting out the bad transitions and cutting down on players being stuck in animation cycles, they make every player totally and instantaneously responsive and make all players run the same way.

If I'm not impressed with the demo, i just give up with football games for the time being!

Yes this dude has become a FIFA fan, but he's far from being the only one. He and some other guys are invited each year by EA, says it all.

Anyway about Puyol in the video 5 (or 4 ? don't remember), he's actually placed a n°10 which is awful ! But about his dribbling abilities, I'm not that shocked because it do happen in real life that a defender starts dribbling one or two guy, making roulettes or great feints. Take a look at PSG defender Sammy Traoré : YouTube - Sammy Traoré dit "Sammyradona"

Indeed I think individuality in PES 2011 is nothing like it used to be in the old PS2 PES. When I play with Zidane for example, he moves and feel quite rigid although he's 98 in technique and 97 in dribbling ! Nothing like the real one or like his counterpart in the old PES...

 

[Jamezinho]

I don't get this statement. Have you played any football games from the previous generation of consoles recently? I have and I can assure you they are dire in comparison so why would you mention the generation since the previous generation was worse.

PES5 is a nostalgia whore, you remember it as the perfect game but in realism when you go back and play it the game lacks a stupid amount of vital features, AI etc

I'll put this part of your post down to frustration as I agree this feature was an unnecessary addition and does defeat player individuality but this generation of consoles easily have the best football games and wishing to go backwards is not something I wish to do at 30 years of age lol

What I mean is I simply don't play football games as much as I did 5 or 10 years ago. It's not a time issue, I still have plenty of free hours for good gaming sessions, but these days I'd rather play an online shooter like Bad Company 2 or a racer like Forza 3/GT5.

That to me says something has been lost in the football game genre, and I couldn't tell you what it is. Football games are technically better than they have ever been but I don't get that same feeling playing them that I used to.

It's hard to explain, football games these days don't feel as magical and addictive as they once did. But that's just me.

 

[Ameppe]

Ameppe - I don't think that has to be true. For quite a while before the triple tap and speed merchant types really settled in, I thought MLO in PES 2011 was great online, even against randoms. The 'just play against friends' line is too defeatist for me - people say the same about FIFA as a counter to people saying that it is unrealistic and doesn't play like football. It's not a solution, it's ignoring the problem.

this is the same exact situation that will happen IF this feature will be unbalanced online
since it's difficult to master at the beginning online master league will be good, then i'm sure someone will find an exploit
by the way, don't get me wrong, i'm angry as you with Konami, they could have avoided to add this useless feature
they say they want to appeal to hardcore but this feature is not hardcore at all

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Excellent post.

I think this could potentially be a GAME BREAKING flaw if the defensive awareness is even slightly off in most situations. I'm afraid that fter a few months play the hardcore 'gamers' will figure out a formation and a few simple ways to make an unmarked run and putt a through ball which is unstoppable unless defensive AI covers the runner perfectly.

I don't trust Konami to create defensive awareness which will actively follow the runner at an angle relative to the pass which is about to be played.

Worst case scnerio, the messi/ronaldo whores play some awkward formation which guarantees them playing the ball into a semi-dangerous position on the side and initiating their messi/ronaldo to run unmarked for the 1v1 nearly everytime.

Which would in turn mean that all of their attacks will be geared to this particular play or a few others which are similar.

That would be game breaking online, an absolute travesty.

I hate to even think about it.

I'm confident bud, to an extent, this highly touted defensive A.I. will be able to cope with the through-balls. I'm actually not in the boat that thinks through-balls are a real issue in PES 2011. For the first time ever, they actually do want you want them to do most of the time. I agree if your not defensive savvy they can create issues, but for the most part, I like to think they can be stopped. I dont like the blatant coding that happens sometimes to ensure the pass meets it's intended target, like defenders parting or them missing the ball, but thats another issue for the most part.

What is worrying me though, is the removal of the 'catch-up' bug. I would hate to see PES go back to the old days, (with the exception of PES 5 where they did something similiar to prevent the sprint whores ) where the sprint game took prevalence over football. That is my only real concern right now.

 

[Jamezinho]

He's ok everyone!

 

[Ameppe]

He's ok everyone!

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

He's ok everyone!

Who is ? Have I missed something ?

 

[Lami]

I'm confident bud, to an extent, this highly touted defensive A.I. will be able to cope with the through-balls. I'm actually not in the boat that thinks through-balls are a real issue in PES 2011. For the first time ever, they actually do want you want them to do most of the time. I agree if your not defensive savvy they can create issues, but for the most part, I like to think they can be stopped. I dont like the blatant coding that happens sometimes to ensure the pass meets it's intended target, like defenders parting or them missing the ball, but thats another issue for the most part.

What is worrying me though, is the removal of the 'catch-up' bug. I would hate to see PES go back to the old days, (with the exception of PES 5 where they did something similiar to prevent the sprint whores ) where the sprint game took prevalence over football. That is my only real concern right now.

Once we master the defensive side of PES 2012, there shouldn't be any problem stopping sprint whores mate If we want a sim, we have to accept the fact that in real life you have players who depend solely on speed and skill, which gets on some defenders tits leading to chopping a few legs off While some defenders prefer to play a different game and enjoy the challenge. Good players who can master defense should do the same in PES 2012. Enjoy the challenge and the mind games. Makes sprint whores suffer and feel they can't beat you. Then they get nervous, and eventually lose

Back in PES 6, when online was fine for me, I never had a problem playing such people. They were the easiest to beat. They had no other ways to play, just one style. It was real fun.

He's ok everyone!

Who is ? Have I missed something ?

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Jeez, I was only gone for one day, and that was my day off work. Thanks for concern though Rom ( I read back a few pages) XXXXXX.

 

[klashman69]

I'm confident bud, to an extent, this highly touted defensive A.I. will be able to cope with the through-balls. I'm actually not in the boat that thinks through-balls are a real issue in PES 2011. For the first time ever, they actually do want you want them to do most of the time. I agree if your not defensive savvy they can create issues, but for the most part, I like to think they can be stopped. I dont like the blatant coding that happens sometimes to ensure the pass meets it's intended target, like defenders parting or them missing the ball, but thats another issue for the most part.

What is worrying me though, is the removal of the 'catch-up' bug. I would hate to see PES go back to the old days, (with the exception of PES 5 where they did something similiar to prevent the sprint whores ) where the sprint game took prevalence over football. That is my only real concern right now.

Jimmy, your still alive, i along with others where worried you would've of done something crazy hearing player runs are now in PES

As for the bold part i wholeheartedly agree. I do NOT want another FIFA 09, when Not just Crisitano Ronaldo and Eto'o where the king. But even Average players like Agbonglahor, where unstoppable. Even Luton Shelton was better and more effective than Messi Because he was faster and taller

I think both me and Northzzz would probably commit suicide if it turned into even a PES 6 fast players orgy. Even in PES 2011 fast players are still very effective!

 

[klashman69]

Yes this dude has become a FIFA fan, but he's far from being the only one. He and some other guys are invited each year by EA, says it all.

Anyway about Puyol in the video 5 (or 4 ? don't remember), he's actually placed a n°10 which is awful ! But about his dribbling abilities, I'm not that shocked because it do happen in real life that a defender starts dribbling one or two guy, making roulettes or great feints. Take a look at PSG defender Sammy Traoré : YouTube - Sammy Traoré dit "Sammyradona"

Indeed I think individuality in PES 2011 is nothing like it used to be in the old PS2 PES. When I play with Zidane for example, he moves and feel quite rigid although he's 98 in technique and 97 in dribbling ! Nothing like the real one or like his counterpart in the old PES...

I used to do that at least once every game while playing as a center back. because i was the teams fastest player and my dribbling was, well pretty good

Anyway. Notice that run. he steamed forward like Lucio does! I take it he's a pretty quick defender. He didn't try to turn at 75 or 90 degrees, He made very light runs, not turn with the ball at more than I'd say 20 degree's. You can do that on PES 2011 still. You just can't try a sharp turn

The individuality i agree has absolutely gone to a whole new level in PES 2011 and it's light years away from even PES 5.

 

[_anderson]

@Jimmy and Klash: Isn't it a bit illogical to presume the AI won't be able to cope with speed demons and at the same time believing the defensive AI will be able to handle through balls and other sorts of passes well? If the defensive AI is as good as we have heard, those shouldn't be much of a problem either. Or is it just a concern 'cause so far the catch-up bug seems to have been the only working fix to stop them to some extent?

The approach we see in the feature vids aren't new tbh, with zonal and individual marking seeming really tight, organized and overall effective, that's how it used to work in PES 5 and co. So even if the player is really fast, it's up to the defense to stop them with realistic approaches, not by recurring to some "intentional bug" to fix it.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

I have the utmost confidence in Konami Anderson, I really do. They always come through, and historically, everything they have done, for the most part, has worked. It has always been left to us to realise our initial concerns where in fact, wrong, and they knew best all the time.

In saying that, I'm yet to see a PES where the speedy players havent had a massive impact on how the game plays out. With the exception of PES 5 and PES 11 where they were coded not to have that exact impact. The fact they are now relevant again, makes me slightly worried because of what I have seen before. Hopefully, they have used PES 11 as the base, and now they can assure fast players are now relevant, but at the same time give us the relevant A.I to combat the non-footballing threat these type of players can pose from a spamming perspective.

 

[Thespeedster84]

From the leaked video, isn't it heartwarming to have a defender catching a dribbler in a better mechanic. They look separate entity now. lol

 

[_anderson]

I have the utmost confidence in Konami Anderson, I really do. They always come through, and historically, everything they have done, for the most part, has worked. It has always been left to us to realise our initial concerns where in fact, wrong, and they knew best all the time.

In saying that, I'm yet to see a PES where the speedy players havent had a massive impact on how the game plays out. With the exception of PES 5 and PES 11 where they were coded not to have that exact impact. The fact they are now relevant again, makes me slightly worried because of what I have seen before. Hopefully, they have used PES 11as the base, and now they can assure fast players are now relevant, but at the same time give us the relevant A.I to combat the non-footballing threat these type of players can pose from a spamming perspective.

I get what you're saying, it's all about balance. PES 5 indeed had the best balance of all.

PES 2011 got really annoying to me exactly because of the catch-up bug, it always felt wrong to me 'cause it was too blatantly obvious, once you pressed R1 even once, players next to you would sprint their way towards you to stop you almost completely from doing anything, passing, shooting, moving. It's totally unrealistic imo 'cause it barely happens in football unless you're left or right back that does the whole wing, getting past a player and then having him immediately catch-up with you just because you used R1.

Only way to get around it was to not run at all, doing that the defense would allow you tons of space until you got near the area. There, depending on the team, defenders would get it easily from you for the most part, at least on Top Player. Imo, PES 2011 would have been able to contain speed demons for the most part already, without the need for the catch-up bug.

 

[_anderson]

From the leaked video, isn't it heartwarming to have a defender catching a dribbler in a better mechanic. They look separate entity now. lol

Yep. In the vids where the guys playing it didn't suck you could see it was easy to handle fast players for the most part, without any HINT of the catch-up bug being there at all.