PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

[Suuuuupertalk]

I read earlier people saying that the off the ball movement now available doesn't detract from individuality because apparently off the ball movement is only a small part of a player's ability.....erm nope.

PES2011 is the first game where I've actually felt like midfielders like Xavi, Fabregas etc actually have a really good use. In most previous football games, such players didn't have a massive amount of use - it was all about dribbling, speed, shooting - none of which are such player's key attributes, so they tended to just feel 'average'.

But the brilliant think Konami developed was their off the ball ability. Playing with rubbish players in ML, say, your defensive midfielder would be rubbish on the ball, but also he'd be out of position a lot. Then I bought Hargreaves, an experienced international (okay, so a crocked one), and the game really makes having him far more beneficial than ever before, because he takes up noticeably better positions. He's always in the right place at the right time, and his ability to find space to recieve a pass is so much more noticeable than other players in the team. This makes him a constant outlet to play the ball to, to relieve pressure, start attacks etc.

This applies even more to players like Xavi for example, who's value depends in PES2011 by what space he takees up, and how much better he is than other playes at taking up space to give him more time on the ball, in better areas with more options open to him. Such an ability is now vital to the game, which isn't the case in FIFA.

Sure, the AI in PES2012 has been referred to as being great, so I just hope what I've talked about will carry on in the next game. But the potential is there, particularly online, to have players bombing forwards making the most silly runs possible just because they now can.

FIFA has none of the positional mentality and importance on stats off the ball, which is why it needs the trigger runs, but is also why almost every player feels the same bar the likes of Messi. In FIFA, you can't tell the difference between Fabregas and Makelele, and this is the key factor PES must not lose. Trigger runs look like being the first step to blurring the differences between such players though.

 

[BigZombieMonkey]

Spike, the AI there is on the lowest difficulty setting so there is no tracking of runs. The guy on the ball could have just waltzed through without passing.

Thank god for that, I was worried I was going to be cussing like an Irishman with no booze.

Yes this dude has become a FIFA fan, but he's far from being the only one. He and some other guys are invited each year by EA, says it all.

I don't get why there is all this "you're one or the other".. it's like slightly preferring one game means you're an outsider.

I may think twice when I choose between cornflakes and frosties in the future, might be made a cereal outsider.

 

[Lami]

PES2011 is the first game where I've actually felt like midfielders like Xavi, Fabregas etc actually have a really good use. In most previous football games, such players didn't have a massive amount of use - it was all about dribbling, speed, shooting - none of which are such player's key attributes, so they tended to just feel 'average'.

But the brilliant think Konami developed was their off the ball ability. Playing with rubbish players in ML, say, your defensive midfielder would be rubbish on the ball, but also he'd be out of position a lot. Then I bought Hargreaves, an experienced international (okay, so a crocked one), and the game really makes having him far more beneficial than ever before, because he takes up noticeably better positions. He's always in the right place at the right time, and his ability to find space to recieve a pass is so much more noticeable than other players in the team. This makes him a constant outlet to play the ball to, to relieve pressure, start attacks etc.

This applies even more to players like Xavi for example, who's value depends in PES2011 by what space he takees up, and how much better he is than other playes at taking up space to give him more time on the ball, in better areas with more options open to him. Such an ability is now vital to the game, which isn't the case in FIFA.

Never had any problems with previous PES versions regarding this, ever since PS2. It was one of many things that made me love PES. Playing in ML specially, where I had to spend hours literally comparing many players for just the one position, taking into consideration all the stats for that position. Individuality made PES what it is long time ago really.

 

[DuduBR9]

good point
in fact in online master league nowadays many people uses one-twos where one of the players makes a run and through passes
now i feel a little more relieved

I wonder how good and realistic the game could be if the L1 had gone and the attacking runs were depended on players individuality and team work, considering that now we have a super AI.

If it was like this, than it would be cool having only the manual teammates avaliable as an extra feature.

What do you guys think ?

I think this formula would be the best!!

I hope you get what i mean.

 

[Thespeedster84]

I wonder how good and realistic the game could be if the L1 had gone and the attacking runs were depended on players individuality and team work, considering that now we have a super AI.

If it was like this, than it would be cool having only the manual teammates avaliable as an extra feature.

What do you guys think ?

I think this formula would be the best!!

I hope you get what i mean.

Yup, i have seen some ppl talking about one-two using manual team mate control.

@LTFC
Now, it is all about the implementation of assisted. There is always away to insert mentality awareness there.

Btw i guess there is till a bit misunderstanding when it comes to discuss "individuality" in assisted stuff. The context should be separated clearly :
1. in attacking pov
2. in defending pov

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

Good convo's in here. I don't think it should be entirely down to the AI unless they make it work extremely realistically. For example, if the players with good positioning continue to make runs when you don't want them to (holding onto a lead, they're fatigued, etc) then that would be a problem. If they could ensure that off the ball tendencies of players are balanced with formations/tactics and proper stamina, then sure, leave it entirely up to the AI.

Don't think we're at that level yet are we?

 

[CurryWasShott]

Guys think of it more like your the coach on the sidelines and your screaming for one of the players to do a certain something. Think of it when your playing this trigger thing is used for the coach when a player is doing something stupid. I mean in pro you cant hear it but they do it. Also in youth under 18 the coach yells for you to do something and when your coach is screaming at you to do something you do it or your ass is fried.

Technically the coach intervenes with a players movements all the time. And in pes if you want it more realistic there needs to be a coach. Thus this right stick thing appeared and labeled Coach by me.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

On a sidenote - I tweaked my TV's colours with my calibration disc and filters. Got rid of some colour casts Tried out PES and then the FIFA 11 demo.

Wow - PES graphics and lighting is SO much more natural and less saturated. The difference is day and night...

 

[Ern Dog]

Never had any problems with previous PES versions regarding this, ever since PS2. It was one of many things that made me love PES. Playing in ML specially, where I had to spend hours literally comparing many players for just the one position, taking into consideration all the stats for that position. Individuality made PES what it is long time ago really.

I think he has a point. The ps2 pes games relied heavily on what you did in the fotmation screen with the defence levels and attacking arrows for the off ball player movement. By removing these options players have now become more individual because of their increased reliance on stats for their positioning. In pes5 i could have fabregas play well in any of the 3 midfield roles by adjusting his defence/attacking options, his role and his position in the formation. In pes2011 I would bet that he is crap as a dmf and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

I think he has a point. The ps2 pes games relied heavily on what you did in the fotmation screen with the defence levels and attacking arrows for the off ball player movement. By removing these options players have now become more individual because of their increased reliance on stats for their positioning. In pes5 i could have fabregas play well in any of the 3 midfield roles by adjusting his defence/attacking options, his role and his position in the formation. In pes2011 I would bet that he is crap as a dmf and there is nothing you can do about it.

Which highlights Zee's point perfectly.

 

[Gab_]

What is worrying me though, is the removal of the 'catch-up' bug. I would hate to see PES go back to the old days, (with the exception of PES 5 where they did something similiar to prevent the sprint whores ) where the sprint game took prevalence over football. That is my only real concern right now.

Would it not be best to actually come up with a realistic solution to this problem though? I would argue that this isn't a problem in real life because when you run full speed with the ball you can't have perfectly even touches all the time. This means sometimes you make a bad touch so that you have to slow down a little to keep the ball under control, and sometimes it goes to far ahead so that a defender can step in. If they actually implemented unique touches, calculated error on every touch, this wouldn't be a problem. I have been nagging about this for years in both FIFA and PES feedback since both games always have to try to nerf speedy players. Am I crazy or isn't this the solution to this problem?

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Yes, that is the perfect solution Gab. Running with the ball at speed is a very hard to technique to master. Very few in the world game can do it at a consistent level, and for the most part, those players usually are smaller with a lower center of gravity. PES has never really nailed this, not even close for the most part, and it is an area that needs work. I think we are getting there though, the first touch was a huge step into the right direction, the dribbling side combined would merely be an extension of whats already in place.

That reason alone, is why I've never been upset with the catch-up bug, it makes PES actually more realistic than the sprint-fests of previous versions. Players will get caught when running with the ball, only when you knock the ball out of your feet and sprint on PES 2011 do you really see the speed differential. Or, over the first couple of yards, which is how it is at present. Sure it's not perfect, but it's a hell of alot more realistic than seeing a Messi or Walcott run past 4-5 players and half the length of the pitch like previous titles. Oh, and without getting tired.

 

[Lami]

I think he has a point. The ps2 pes games relied heavily on what you did in the fotmation screen with the defence levels and attacking arrows for the off ball player movement. By removing these options players have now become more individual because of their increased reliance on stats for their positioning. In pes5 i could have fabregas play well in any of the 3 midfield roles by adjusting his defence/attacking options, his role and his position in the formation. In pes2011 I would bet that he is crap as a dmf and there is nothing you can do about it.

Really? I still remember picking the wrong player for the position wasn't a good idea back then, that's why I spent hours looking for the one. For example, I remember playing as Palermo, and having Corini as DMF and was terrific, as opposed to an AMF or SMF like Foggia who was just terrible even if I set the arrows.

 

[kouroux]

Yes this dude has become a FIFA fan, but he's far from being the only one. He and some other guys are invited each year by EA, says it all.

Anyway about Puyol in the video 5 (or 4 ? don't remember), he's actually placed a n°10 which is awful ! But about his dribbling abilities, I'm not that shocked because it do happen in real life that a defender starts dribbling one or two guy, making roulettes or great feints. Take a look at PSG defender Sammy Traoré : YouTube - Sammy Traoré dit "Sammyradona"

Indeed I think individuality in PES 2011 is nothing like it used to be in the old PS2 PES. When I play with Zidane for example, he moves and feel quite rigid although he's 98 in technique and 97 in dribbling ! Nothing like the real one or like his counterpart in the old PES...

Ce bon vieux Sammy hahhahah

 

[klashman69]

Would it not be best to actually come up with a realistic solution to this problem though? I would argue that this isn't a problem in real life because when you run full speed with the ball you can't have perfectly even touches all the time. This means sometimes you make a bad touch so that you have to slow down a little to keep the ball under control, and sometimes it goes to far ahead so that a defender can step in. If they actually implemented unique touches, calculated error on every touch, this wouldn't be a problem. I have been nagging about this for years in both FIFA and PES feedback since both games always have to try to nerf speedy players. Am I crazy or isn't this the solution to this problem?

I agree, great idea! I do believe PES 2011 does show the first signs of making sprinting a 'skill'. It's got a long way to go though.

I want to see a system in which you have to tap the R1 button to sprint and each tap represents the player keeping his balance while sprinting (or something along those lines). If you tap R1 too quickly his touch will go long. Depending on his stats and how tried the player is or if he's injuries should determine how difficult it is to keep his balance.

What's good about tapping R1 to maintain a balance is it makes the player really have to focus on getting is dribbling with the ball right. On games like PES 2010 and PES 6, Spiriting with the ball was piss easy and it was a given, players as soon as they got free for a 1 on 1 had so much time to think about scoring past the keeper since they didn't have to worry about defenders catching them.

Having this system with make staying ahead of the defender a skill. It'll make sprinting a skill in general and not something which anyone can't just abuse with ease. Also factoring in stamina, morale etc.. players will think more about just sprinting madly with the fast layers every time they give them the ball.

Crisitano Ronaldo and Theo Walcott, while they aren't the best dribblers around. (Cristiano uses tricks almost exclusively to beat players) They are both top class with running with the ball at speed. This is very much a skill in itself. Knowing consistently how many strides to take between each touch of the ball while sprinting. If it wasn't Usain Bolt would automatically be a top player.

 

[Ern Dog]

Really? I still remember picking the wrong player for the position wasn't a good idea back then, that's why I spent hours looking for the one. For example, I remember playing as Palermo, and having Corini as DMF and was terrific, as opposed to an AMF or SMF like Foggia who was just terrible even if I set the arrows.

You have gone a bit extreme here, obviously an amf or smf will be crap in that role because they arent meant to play there. I am not saying that any player can play anywhere, just their off ball movement in the defined area they play in will be massively influenced by what you do with their defence levels and attacking arrows.

Corini in PES5 is a perfect example and my favorite PES player. I got him in ML when he was 16 and used him as a dmf, set him up with high defence and two diagonal attack arrows pointing back to cover the holes my wing backs would leave. He was very good like this and would sit deep as asked and covered the gaps on the flanks when the ball went there.
I think he had a playmaker star and when he got a bit older his passing was superb so I took his defence level down to low, stuck forward attack arrows on him and used him higher up the pitch. He was even better here, he would no longer try to sit deep and defend, instead he would get into the final third and could be used to play clever passes into the box and he would also make late runs into the box and got quite a few goals(got a hat trick with him against Man UTD).
You do not have this level of flexibility with the new system, Corini would be defence minded with little to no attacking intent and you would have to live with it.

I agree with what you are saying with regards to the individuality in the old games, I am not saying it wasnt there but it wasnt set in stone as it is now.

 

[Ern Dog]

I agree, great idea! I do believe PES 2011 does show the first signs of making sprinting a 'skill'. It's got a long way to go though.

I want to see a system in which you have to tap the R1 button to sprint and each tap represents the player keeping his balance while sprinting (or something along those lines).

This is something I thought about a while ago and also came up with tapping the sprint button but you would have to time your tap to coincide with the touch of the ball. Its a similar concept to those rhythm games like dance dance revolution or guitar hero. If you tap to soon your touch is horrible and it slows you down but if your tap is spot on you maintain full speed. Also I thought about using the same system for first touch where R2 is used when you recieve the ball.

Edit: just to add that the better the dribbling stat the bigger the margin of error is for timing the button press.

 

[Thespeedster84]

@Klash

Interesting one.. it would be nice if PES has L3 sensitive first both for sprinting/sprint dribbling, jogging/dribble, walking/slow dribble.. then for dribbling purpose, R1 will be tapped to adjust players balance with the ball. The necessity of tapping will be based on player's s dribbling ability. Wow, near complete simulation of dribbling

 

[RAMAXWY]

Once we master the defensive side of PES 2012, there shouldn't be any problem stopping sprint whores mate If we want a sim, we have to accept the fact that in real life you have players who depend solely on speed and skill, which gets on some defenders tits leading to chopping a few legs off While some defenders prefer to play a different game and enjoy the challenge. Good players who can master defense should do the same in PES 2012. Enjoy the challenge and the mind games. Makes sprint whores suffer and feel they can't beat you. Then they get nervous, and eventually lose

Back in PES 6, when online was fine for me, I never had a problem playing such people. They were the easiest to beat. They had no other ways to play, just one style. It was real fun.

fully agree.

 

[henrys hand]

The old Fifa 04/05-off-the-ball-control-feature in PES 2012 is a disaster and goes against core-fundamentals of realistic football:

In real football and I hope that's what PES aims and tries to recreate, when you are on the ball, you can't dictate other players to do runs or see opportunities... you can try to shout or make signs and hope the other understands what you want and sees what you see and you hope that the other agrees with your assessment and idea but ultimately the other has his own head and eyes and what he thinks and decides is not under your control... so he can react to your shouting or signing (maybe with a delay) or decide to try something else... and even if he does what you wanted his execution will be in his own variation.

With this 2-player-control all that is taken away, you dictate the other player's run and he follows it immediately and 100% and that is unrealistic to the max!

I'm not worried because of exploits or defense-AI not able to cope with run-spamming, I'm worried because it is completely unrealistic and takes away an important element of football.

I'm really shocked that Seabass who vehemently and fully right argued numerous times against triggered runs lets this happen.

I can only hope that the fans of PES and realistic football will raise hell so that the feature gets scrapped and abolished before the game gets final... Fan-pressure worked regarding d-pad-control, although that was a clearly wrong retraction, but you get my point...: Pressure works, let's do this!

 

[Thespeedster84]

PES should replace "Trigger run" with "Trigger shout"

 

[Me!TheRaven]

If with that touching of R we could have a real analog left stick A la Nintendo where u could feel weight and its shifting, that would come close to sim the real thing. A player with the ball is different than without it.

 

[sincover]

PES should replace "Trigger run" with "Trigger shout"

I quite like this idea. Instead of triggering instant runs, pressing the button makes the player shout/use gestures for assistance. Depending on the target player's stats (Teamwork/Mentality), he will make runs to: open up space, exploit space, bum rush forward or not move much at all. Such a system would preserve player individuality but still allow the player to 'trigger' runs when the right people are around him.

Of course this could be done without a trigger at all, but it seems like it could be a working compromise. What do you all think?

 

[romagnoli]

Going by what we've been told, I'm willing to hear it out.

I think even the podcast didnt really address the central point of individuality as we'd like. The way I'd have put it, going by what we know, is that this feature is so hard to use meaningfully that it is only really useful in very limited situations. As such, even if you use this in the right situations the vast majority of your interplay, and of others who you face online, will be controlled by the AI. Incisive runs, #10s, marauders, free roamers - they will be in control 99% of the time, and the AI being better as a whole improves the depth for us too. You won't be able to use this to the extent that it will completely, or even significantly, change who wears the trousers between you and the individuality of the players. While these videos make it look like each and every run can be user dictated, the reality is that you'll barely get a look-in by comparison and the individuality we know and love will be very much intact.

That's how I'd have put it anyway, and I hope that still stands on the 1st August.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

I've no problem with the catch up bug being eradicated if it's implemented properly, so that'll be really interesting to learn how it works. I think PES2011 has it about right in that it's tough to overtake players. No problems there. The annoying thing is when you have a head start, or even get played through on goal with yards to spare, and the defenders go all turbo boost and catch you in a ridiculously short space of time.

I think the PES games of old have always had the problem that Jimmy says, where you could sprint half the length of the pitch and actively accelerate away from players. With the right players I think you need to be able to at least stay ahead of a defender, for example if they've been played in behind the defence and you have a good head start - but it's all down to the stats really. Crouch should probably be caught up by most defenders if he goes past a defender, or is in behind the defence, but I really don't think the likes of Walcott should be rapidly caught by slow, aging defenders if he has space to sprint into.

But again, the balance needs to be so that you can use the pace of certain players without being able to run up and down the touchline all day long. I don't think PES2012 will have a problem, going past players will hopefully still be difficult because you won't be able to sprint at insane speeds in relation to a defender. It should be tough to beat a man for pace, but doable, but if you get double pressed for example by a covering defender then it should be really hard. But at the same time, if you have a player with reasonable to good sprint/accerleration then they really shouldn't have to put up with latching onto through passes only to see a defender catch him up by 10 yards in two seconds. That's not realistic either.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Oh and thinking about the second man control issue, people will probably disagree strongly but it might have been an interesting idea to make this feature only available when you have specific players on the ball, namely anyone with a really high vision or playmaker stat. This could have brought a whole new dynamic to having a slow playmaker in the mould of Riquelme for example.

Get a top playmaker on the ball, and suddenly you'd have a whole world of passing opportunities by allowing yourself to control other team mates and dictate your passing options. You'd find yourself actively trying to start moves through your playmaker, but as soon as you release the ball the option is turned off until that particular player got back on the ball later in the game. It could have been a good way of dictating the play and the set up of your attacking moves through using a playmaker, though of course once you'd played a pass you'd then have had to cope without the second man option.

That said, the idea probably wouldn't work online, as the top teams would contain playmakers and speedy dribblers, whereas playing as a lesser team with no playmakers, you'd not have the second man option even though your opponent does. Maybe it could be just disabled for online.

Nevertheless it would have been a great addition to Master League etc for offline modes, reintroducing a whole new importance for playmakers.

Just a thought....

 

[Ern Dog]

Thats an interesting idea and should work with assisted runs also, where depending on who your are controlling more or less players are available to make a run.

 

[mr_man]

New vid.

http://youtu.be/FVP_IgCqtD8

Oh and in HD.

 

[Isslander]

@LTFC
Yeah I can just see how adding that into the mix would make the whole thing intuitive Like "Now let's see, I pass the ball to my playmaker, now I have the option to move this other guy at the same time, sweet, I will just take him over here... wait my opponent has already won the ball and scored."

 

[only1ronaldo]

new gameplay vid from saturdays playtest in HD (credits to dan_persie11 from WENB)

YouTube - Vid 1 A C Milan v Barcelona 1st Half