PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

JimboPL said:
When you control a player you also can do things they wouldn't make in real life. You can shoot from 30 meters with Inzaghi whole game, you can even dribble with goalkeeper. They probably wouldn't do it in real life.
Maybe let's just sit and watch AI games, just to avoid accidentally taking away players' individuality.
The runs itself don't make players great. What they can do with the ball after the run is more important.
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Try scoring with Inzaghi from 30 meters out and then we'll talk. But when Busquets becomes Barça's top scorer you should think something MIGHT be rotten in the state of Denmark.
 
JimboPL said:
When you control a player you also can do things they wouldn't make in real life. You can shoot from 30 meters with Inzaghi whole game, you can even dribble with goalkeeper. They probably wouldn't do it in real life.
Maybe let's just sit and watch AI games, just to avoid accidentally taking away players' individuality.
The runs itself don't make players great. What they can do with the ball after the run is more important.
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Spot on!
 
JimboPL said:
When you control a player you also can do things they wouldn't make in real life. You can shoot from 30 meters with Inzaghi whole game, you can even dribble with goalkeeper. They probably wouldn't do it in real life.
Maybe let's just sit and watch AI games, just to avoid accidentally taking away players' individuality.
The runs itself don't make players great. What they can do with the ball after the run is more important.
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Hi, Jimbo the one that i bold is for on-the ball individuality.. The assisted team mate control is probably overriding ai tactical awareness (off-the ball) that differs one player to the other. When he got the ball then its back to on-the ball individuality.

By giving this assisted off-the ball control, we are losing a tactical awareness kinda thing, no ?
 
JimboPL said:
When you control a player you also can do things they wouldn't make in real life. You can shoot from 30 meters with Inzaghi whole game, you can even dribble with goalkeeper. They probably wouldn't do it in real life.
Maybe let's just sit and watch AI games, just to avoid accidentally taking away players' individuality.
The runs itself don't make players great. What they can do with the ball after the run is more important.
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still the stats and abilities limit you to what you can do with certain players.
these runs can be performed by anyone you select which won't make that realistic at all.
though you make a good point of what is more important is what you do with it afterwards the fact is the opportunities will be created which would never be there in the first place if it relied only on the stats
 
danyjr said:
Warning: Early Impressions
Let's just say PES 2012 is going to be like FIFA, without all the good animations and technology.
Konami fucked up big time.
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Big exaggeration. It's one feature, ONE, if it ends up being a complete screw up, those who "care" won't be using it, and it will still be PES, a completely different game.

My only worry would be if it was easily exploitable, but I really don't think it will.

Cutbacks have always existed, doesn't mean you use them. You can be a sprinting whore since pretty much the early days, doesn't mean you choose to be.

I still honestly think this feature will allow us to do some proper, non-unrealistic plays that we haven't been able to do before, as well as making defending more powerful. Really looking forward to that. If people don't see any advantage in using it, you don't have to use it.
Ultimately, if it ends up being exploitable, Konami must remove it asap.
 
I don't know what to say..

iroinc since yesterday i was thinking if Konami screwed up 2012, I'd probably just cry and never bother to discuss PES again.

Player off the ball Ai had room from PES improvement but from what can see they are going way too far and they really are going to kill the off the ball Individuality.

Also the Center backs in the video are turning way too fast! Where the grandad turn which teaches you to use players to their strengths and not try anything fancy with center backs or players with poor technique???
 
romagnoli said:
Early impressions:

elmo-suicide-random-7054698-460-705.jpg
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:LMAO::LMAO: come on it can't be that bad.
 
i like two videos...

The AI is on the lowest difficulty...In PES 2012 defenders moves and AI are very good i think and don't forget the offsides!!!
 
_anderson said:
The vids, as usual, don't do the best job on reassuring people it's not going to be OTT. The reaction is sort of normal 'cause it seems too effective. That's because it has to be in order to show it working lol. These vids are on the lowest difficulty possible me thinks, players have too much free space compared to what we have seen already, that's why it seems to effective. According to Adam it's really hard to have a chance to use it as in the video. So you guys assuming it's going to be abused, I think you should re-think that.

Although I'll be honest and say that I would go well without the "Assisted" setting.

Challenge Training mode :APPLAUD: I wonder what else :D

Messi off the cover, I think it's simply a statement that this game is different from the rest, like all the PES covers from the past games, the cover shows the intent of what the game is. Ditching Messi is a wise decision, just hope they don't pick Ronaldo hah.
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I'd prefer a black cover with my Seabass' avatar pic on it.
 
Probably worth pointing out that the second player under control will be jogging instead of running, so you can't sprint like a mad man everytime, with every player.
 
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The videos make the off the ball runs feature look fun and interesting - and another one of the new additions this year that may draw the interest of discontented FIFA players - but it sure does seem like Konami have possibly opened a massive can of worms. I can see this being a big win for Konami in the press and for its marketing vis-a-vis FIFA, but the last thing I'd want to see is PES turn into a game of 10 players bombing forward nonstop.

Implementation, and the defensive AI's ability to respond adequately, will be crucial.

But can't wait to hear about how ML has "evolved"!
 
I hope this can be disabled so I don't feel the need to use it, would prefer to judge the game on its own AI.

Even wrote on my blog last year I would hate a trigger run button and that is all it is.

Shame for me personally as what has been shown so far has been great but this....eurgh.
 
So because you can now essentially trigger runs, stats no longer matter? There is a lot more to player individuality in PES than just how players behave off the ball.

Also, what's to say that this feature won't be affected by stats? Say, a player with worse attack gets told to trigger a run, but does it slower than a player with a great attack stat would, or they run too far offside and don't watch their line (as you can see the England players do in the video) etc, stats CAN affect this. It just needs to be done right.

Also, there were sometimes in PES 2011 where players, no matter what their stats SHOULD have made an easy dart forward but never did. Even good players would do this, and having an option like this in that game would have been a godsend at times.

I do understand that it has a huge potential to be exploited if they do it wrong, and it could be terrible... but everyone should calm down and remember that the people who are making this aren't the people who are making FIFA and for a long time now they have done things differently.

Just give it a chance...

Oh and remember, you don't HAVE to use it.
 
wabak said:
So because you can now essentially trigger runs, stats no longer matter? There is a lot more to player individuality in PES than just how players behave off the ball.

Also, what's to say that this feature won't be affected by stats? Say, a player with worse attack gets told to trigger a run, but does it slower than a player with a great attack stat would, or they run too far offside and don't watch their line (as you can see the England players do in the video) etc, stats CAN affect this. It just needs to be done right.

Also, there were sometimes in PES 2011 where players, no matter what their stats SHOULD have made an easy dart forward but never did. Even good players would do this, and having an option like this in that game would have been a godsend at times.

I do understand that it has a huge potential to be exploited if they do it wrong, and it could be terrible... but everyone should calm down and remember that the people who are making this aren't the people who are making FIFA and for a long time now they have done things differently.

Just give it a chance...

Oh and remember, you don't HAVE to use it.
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Good point. Obviously slower and less agile players will probably struggle to find the space. That's key really, if the defense is good than we shouldn't be worried about that.
 
_anderson said:
In the end, regarding individuality, what's the difference between this and getting attacking players pressuring in the defense, 1.or Puyol as an attacking midfielder like we seen some joker do in the leaked vids, or 2. changing the tactics in exploitable and unrealistic formations where you can play the way you're not supposed to with weaker teams?

Better or worse, that's something you were always able to do to some extent, 2.manipulate the game to play it in unrealistic ways. At the end of the day, it's still a game.

Individuality is only lost if people use it "the wrong way". I still think most people won't be able to exploit it, but if they do, it won't be anything new.

Konami's intents were obviously the best (considering the rest of the announcements), the fact that not all people will be using it the way it should be used, it's a sad reality but it's nothing new really.
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For the sake of discussion, in my oppinion
1. When you put puyol in midfielder, automatically his stats for tactical awareness as a midfielder wont'be as good as iniesta. Hence, he won't be as good as iniesta to look for good spaces. If the game provide a logic that way, we wouldn't bother to put puyol there.

2. The game should provide a way so as to this unrealistic way would not work, Simple example : by restricting it.

_anderson said:
Big exaggeration. It's one feature, ONE, if it ends up being a complete screw up, those who "care" won't be using it, and it will still be PES, a completely different game.

My only worry would be if it was easily exploitable, but I really don't think it will.

3. Cutbacks have always existed, doesn't mean you use them. You can be a sprinting whore since pretty much the early days, doesn't mean you choose to be.

I still honestly think this feature will allow us to do some proper, non-unrealistic plays that we haven't been able to do before, as well as making defending more powerful. Really looking forward to that. If people don't see any advantage in using it, you don't have to use it.
Ultimately, if it ends up being exploitable, Konami must remove it asap.
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3. That's why Konami should find a way to improve defensive system, ball physic, GK awareness, crossing system. And for sprinting whore thats why konami should look back at their stamina system implementation. why bother implement something or not implement good thing that let/give chances for people to use it as an exploit in the first place ?

IMO, If a game provide/encourage something to be realistic at the start. Then you wouldn't bother calling people cutback/sprinting whore in the future :))
 
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wipsnadepoo said:
I'm disappointed at this announcement - when I first heard KONAMI had abig announcement coming up I was sure it would be something like Euro 2012 being unveiled as a new mode etc. When I think how much time KONAMI would have spent developing this off the ball control I wonder what else could have been achieved in other areas of the game rather then this (which I'm sure for many People will be a 'white elephant' meaning it is rarely used). Seriously who on all the forums asked for this?? I can't remember seeing anyone in the past couple of years?
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Players who didn't really understand the game and over competitive players with no patience have!
 
wabak said:
So because you can now essentially trigger runs, stats no longer matter? There is a lot more to player individuality in PES than just how players behave off the ball.

Also, what's to say that this feature won't be affected by stats? Say, a player with worse attack gets told to trigger a run, but does it slower than a player with a great attack stat would, or they run too far offside and don't watch their line (as you can see the England players do in the video) etc, stats CAN affect this. It just needs to be done right.

Also, there were sometimes in PES 2011 where players, no matter what their stats SHOULD have made an easy dart forward but never did. Even good players would do this, and having an option like this in that game would have been a godsend at times.

I do understand that it has a huge potential to be exploited if they do it wrong, and it could be terrible... but everyone should calm down and remember that the people who are making this aren't the people who are making FIFA and for a long time now they have done things differently.

Just give it a chance...

Oh and remember, you don't HAVE to use it.
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good points because they aren't FIFA after all so you could be right.
bring on the demo, i really want to test this game.
 
Thespeedster84 said:
For the sake of discussion, in my oppinion
1. When you put puyol in midfielder, automatically his stats for tactical awareness as a midfielder wont'be as good as iniesta. Hence, he won't be as good as iniesta to look for good spaces. If the game provide a logic that way, we wouldn't bother to put puyol there.

2. The game should provide a way so as to this unrealistic way would not work, Simple example : by restricting it.



3. That's why Konami should find a way to improve defensive system. And for sprinting whore thats why konami should look back at their stamina system implementation.

If A game provide/encourage something to be realistic at the start. Then you wouldn't bother calling people cutback/sprinting whore in the future :))
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1 & 2: The game sort of tries to restrict both of the situations by reducing stats effectiveness depending on the position they're in, but we know that if you put him there, better or worse, if you manipulate the tactics he'll still be making runs. It's not ideal since he's not fast enough and not agile enough, but the game knows what the role of an attacking midfielder is and it kinda still "work" to some extent. That's why in that leaked vid, playing Puyol as AMF worked.

It's one of the hardest aspects to nail in AI programming, since there are tons of aspects to take in, lots variables that kinda mean you can't "have it all".

3: If previews are anything to go by, they have already done that. Obviously we have to play it/see it to believe it. Until we see a match against the AI in top difficulty levels, we won't know that. And even then we won't know for sure, as it may look good at first but there may be ways around it (for those who think they've done too much progress in a short period of time in that aspect lol).

I'd take a wild guess and say that's why this feature won't be as effective as it can seem at first impression, because a) You won't have enough time on the ball, and b) The defense won't allow space most of the time.
 
klashman69 said:
Players who didn't really understand the game and over competitive players with no patience have!
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Apparently on konami's survey in 2010 this was second most suggested thing so obviously there were quite alot of people asking for it. Loads and loads of fifa fans obviously asked for it. Its not konami's fault blame the gamers of today. anyway it can be turned off so whats the big deal. Also its extremely hard to use. People always over do it. The game is still going to be amazing
 
Wasn't something like this implemented on Wii versions? I mean, you could choose a man and make him run towards the direction you wanted.

So, why not to make this work with MOVE?
 
wipsnadepoo said:
I'm disappointed at this announcement - when I first heard KONAMI had abig announcement coming up I was sure it would be something like Euro 2012 being unveiled as a new mode etc. When I think how much time KONAMI would have spent developing this off the ball control I wonder what else could have been achieved in other areas of the game rather then this (which I'm sure for many People will be a 'white elephant' meaning it is rarely used). Seriously who on all the forums asked for this?? I can't remember seeing anyone in the past couple of years?
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LOADS of people have been asking for something like this - just not the hardcore. Anyone who dares to venture in the official FIFA forums may recall that not having any control over player runs has been one of the biggest gripes among those who played both games but still preferred FIFA.

That's not necessarily a defense of Konami's decision to add the feature but I can certainly see why they may have felt pressured to do so.
 
wabak said:
So because you can now essentially trigger runs, stats no longer matter? There is a lot more to player individuality in PES than just how players behave off the ball.

Also, what's to say that this feature won't be affected by stats? Say, a player with worse attack gets told to trigger a run, but does it slower than a player with a great attack stat would, or they run too far offside and don't watch their line (as you can see the England players do in the video) etc, stats CAN affect this. It just needs to be done right.

Also, there were sometimes in PES 2011 where players, no matter what their stats SHOULD have made an easy dart forward but never did. Even good players would do this, and having an option like this in that game would have been a godsend at times.

I do understand that it has a huge potential to be exploited if they do it wrong, and it could be terrible... but everyone should calm down and remember that the people who are making this aren't the people who are making FIFA and for a long time now they have done things differently.

Just give it a chance...

Oh and remember, you don't HAVE to use it.
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Funnily enough I just addressed most of these points over on WENB's forums.

In short:

We know physical and ethnical individuality is still there, but mental and tactical individuality is a huge loss. There is zero evidence that stats matter for this and zero reason to think they will.

The fix to PES2011 players not making runs when they should is to fix the AI, not give us a button.

I don't consider exploiting someone's back line of 1 player to be any more enjoyable than being the victim of exploits myself.

We don't have to use this? Great. How do I stop the other guy using it against me and still ruining my game?
 
geeg said:
Wasn't something like this implemented on Wii versions? I mean, you could choose a man and make him run towards the direction you wanted.

So, why not to make this work with MOVE?
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Exactly anyone who played the wii versions would know that it was extremely difficult to do.And certainly didnt break the game. So whats the big deal you guys are plain mad.
 
romagnoli said:
Funnily enough I just addressed most of these points over on WENB's forums.

In short:

We know physical and ethnical individuality is still there, but mental and tactical individuality is a huge loss. There is zero evidence that stats matter for this and zero reason to think they will.

The fix to PES2011 players not making runs when they should is to fix the AI, not give us a button.

I don't consider exploiting someone's back line of 1 player to be any more enjoyable than being the victim of exploits myself.

We don't have to use this? Great. How do I stop the other guy using it against me and still ruining my game?
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Its in the wii version yet it isnt used to abused. Its going to be hard to use and the defensive AI is capable of dealing with it. If someone uses it you will learn to defend against it simples. Thats where the new challenge mode comes in you will probably have to face against it and try and defend.
 
geeg said:
Wasn't something like this implemented on Wii versions? I mean, you could choose a man and make him run towards the direction you wanted.

So, why not to make this work with MOVE?
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Oh, now that you mention it, yeah it seems to come straight from Wii ahah. Greyhound lending stuff.
 
romagnoli said:
Funnily enough I just addressed most of these points over on WENB's forums.

In short:

We know physical and ethnical individuality is still there, but mental and tactical individuality is a huge loss. There is zero evidence that stats matter for this and zero reason to think they will.

The fix to PES2011 players not making runs when they should is to fix the AI, not give us a button.

I don't consider exploiting someone's back line of 1 player to be any more enjoyable than being the victim of exploits myself.

We don't have to use this? Great. How do I stop the other guy using it against me and still ruining my game?
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So, you're no longer worried about individuality? Good enough.

I doubt it will be exploitable, but we'll have to wait and see really. Nothing else we can do at this stage.
 
Can you imagine how difficult it would actually be to effectively use this option, especially on manual... It's hard enough to control one player and get them to do exactly what you want!

I'll probably just leave the AI to get on with it most of the time, the AI actually looks much better this time around :).

I play 2v2 (same console co-op) very often in PES 2011, which is basically what this new system mimics on one controller, and it doesn't remove all of the individuality - the initial positions players find themselves in is still very much down to stats. PSG are the team I tend to use most in PES 2011, and Erding always seems to pop up in the right positions despite us both controlling a player each, whereas other strikers are usually off the mark by a yard or so.
 
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