PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

romagnoli said:
Interesting. Who did you ask?

It's a question worth trying to answer though. How come EW isnt being held in the esteem that it probably should, when it has so much to offer?

The main problem we have here as far as I can see is that we don't have a front-end. The forum is everything we have; there is no news section, no blog offering think-pieces about aspects of the game, no podcast... and no subsequent readership to which EW would effectively be marketing their product to. Being a forum isn't enough because we aren't in a position to report our thoughts on the game to a significantly wider audience. If we then get an exclusive hands-on then it waters down the significance of early plays to the sites that do have a large following.

If we want the sort of presence and influence that WENB has then we'd need to take some steps towards offering what they have, and then use our collective knowledge to offer something more in-depth. Tactics and formation talk, for example, or weekly/bi-weekly contributions from various posters (something WENB can't compete with as they don't have a forum as rich in knowledge and well-formed opinion as ours).

We could also leverage the fact that we are FIFA literate too, creating a football game site rather than two separate fronts or just going down one road.
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Now this at is an interesting post. Obviously, anything which would have to be done would require design work, and EW's management being on side with it in the first place, so I don't know about the practicalities of all this - but it would be very interesting to see EW take a bigger place in the community.

It's ironic for a site full of PES fans or ex PES fans, and for a site which is called evo-web, that we I believe have the biggest concentration of regular posters who are GameChangers of any site. We already have the potential for a great platform for FIFA, because we have the preview opportunities we need. That is a clear confirmation of the potential being wasted. But for the game which this site grew with, while the discussions here are top quality, it's totally out of the loop when it comes to preview opportunity and influence, which is a huge pity and a huge waste.

There's no doubt in my mind that there is a gap in the market. News is covered very well - there is nothing complex or difficult about posting every snippet of information which comes out about FIFA and PES. What isn't covered so well is the normative stuff: not what is the case, but what should the case be. There is no doubt that the people on this forum can compete - we can equal what is out there already if necessary, and provide something which isn't provided anywhere else. Right now EW has two particular assets. The understanding and knowledge of its community members and the luck of having a handful of GameChangers who regularly read and post here, who get the opportunity to play FIFA early. If EW had people who got to play PES early too that would be greatly beneficial to anything like this.

Could EW become a force in terms of actually pushing both games forward, FIFA and PES? Surely it could. There is a lot of stuff written on this forum which deserves a bigger platform.
 
These words bring a tear to my eye. I honestly think EW is the biggest out there in both quantity and quality. And I would love to see EW take its rightful place.

EDIT:

Anyway, here are a few more chaos_PES tweets from yesterday:

@chaos_PES GREAT NEWS MAN ..... also does it feel like ps2 days ?? and whats wrong with the shooting ? but does it feel better then 11

@amz_ali never played PS2. ;-) shooting is hit and miss, there were great shots/goals. But then sometimes floaty and slowed down..

@chaos_PES SO ITS NOT LIKE PES 11 WERE MOST TIMES IT WOULD GO SKY HIGH WICH PISSES ME OFF MAN :/ ALSO WHATS THE PASSING LIKE BRO ?

@amz_ali no, it's not. We had not one ball flying high. Passing is great. Wait for my summary ;-)
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@chaos_PES is there an abundance of animations , touches , esp in controlling the ball. also, in passing.

@mercibeaucoupe wouldn't call it abundance. There are several new animations and they look good. But definitely not like FIFA.

@chaos_PES is Curling ground through passes possible now? is bringing under better?

@mercibeaucoupe Bringing under control you mean? Yes, works great. Curled passes are possible as well. "The Ball" itself is great :-D
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I know the game will be excellent this year but the point I was putting across to Konami was it will still sell poor, where are the webdocs detailing the changes? Where is there a focused official place for opinions where the devs can make themselves known and be seen as being active? Which casual gamer (which is every companies targeted audience even if they don't admit) has heard of a WENB or a PESfan? They have the most popular sport inthe world and making the best representation of it yet they are treating it like a niche title, why isnt there a trailer with Murphy talking over the changes! Times have changed but they are still acting like 10 years ago, one man on twitter does not cut it (I said it nicer to them though)

And thats not about budgets either, all the above is achievable with existing staff, the only part which is budget related and is unfair and misleading is the deal EA made with Future Publishing last year, hint, if you ever read a magazine which has the words "world exclusive review" across the front of it be very wary!
 
DarthKebab said:
I know the game will be excellent this year but the point I was putting across to Konami was it will still sell poor, where are the webdocs detailing the changes? Where is there a focused official place for opinions where the devs can make themselves known and be seen as being active? Which casual gamer (which is every companies targeted audience even if they don't admit) has heard of a WENB or a PESfan? They have the most popular sport inthe world and making the best representation of it yet they are treating it like a niche title, why isnt there a trailer with Murphy talking over the changes! Times have changed but they are still acting like 10 years ago, one man on twitter does not cut it (I said it nicer to them though)

And thats not about budgets either, all the above is achievable with existing staff, the only part which is budget related and is unfair and misleading is the deal EA made with Future Publishing last year, hint, if you ever read a magazine which has the words "world exclusive review" across the front of it be very wary!
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I think they will still detail many stuff and have some good press releases about it, but I get what you're saying, for the most part, there's no proper "link" between Konami Japan and general public. When I saw the Seabass movie (that looked to be the first of a video series) I thought "wow they're learning", but after that, absolute blackout, unlike what you would expect... E3, a trailer that didn't showed enough, a press release and a screen batch that wen't almost unnoticed.

But we still don't know much about the game itself. Nearly everything we know isn't due to Konami itself, but thanks to WENB and other playtests. Jon Murphy isn't regular anywhere, the #pesQs Video came late as hell, 95% of it everyone knew about already.

It's way too "sporadic" to have proper results. End of July/August has always been the months for PES but once again, not really due to Konami. I can see some videos up ahead containing new game modes and other stuff, but most of the information will still come from a) Preview Code impressions from the press and b)Gamescom.
 
I guess it's easier for feedback about nets to be passed on to Japan than it is to talk about very fiddly technical details via a third party like Jon. After all, it's not just Seabass who needs to understand, but Jon (or whoever it is that translates) needs to be able to understand it and be able to convey it in both languages.
 
@Darth,

is it pesevolves that you are running ?

First time reading PES 2012 ideas there for its simplicity, is much easier to read and understand without too much complexity in technical language.

I sometimes look back at PESfan "have your say", WENB's, and pesgaming's feedback thread thinking that is a good job at least trying to cater fan's wishes. I dont know how it was summarized and feedback procedures is done, either waiting for konami staff to read that as they wish or just send them a bulk of document.

For me, it is inevitable there are still amount of good suggestion in the feedback there but it is also possible to be overlooked if it is not properly managed before submission. Not to say that simplicity of explanation and language barrier should be put into consideration.

Let's say if i am a konami programmer and supposed to take notice of pesgaming feedback thread forum, i would not bother reading lol. It is not necessarily because of the content, but merely the structure or management of the feedback.

Simplicity and scale of priority is most the important point i guess. It is clear what simplicity is all about without sacrificing the depth of the feedback. Scale of priority concerns more about what to add first to the last version of the game to make it more balance and how it would benefit future addition (gameplay, animation, etc) to the game.

It is important to know how is konami's culture of developing PES. Awareness of their current and future technical ability should be put into consideration as well. Without pressing them straight forward like "Seabass, you should get a new engine". :TTTH:

Considering amount of staff and tech they have and how many heads will shout their suggestion to be implemented, in my opinion, it is such a good idea to have separated thread about gameplay, animation etc or whatever format it fits and discussion start there with certain point to talk in a time frame how do we hope to see improvement should incorporated to last year version etc. At the end, some capable members summarize based on priority discussed and simplicity of language. Poll should be last options to be used. January/february is a good time to submit the suggestion.

Last but not least, the approach we give our feedback would be better if based on what is foreseeable to be added to latest PES edition and should not talk about how football game should work in general and throw it to them. Because it may not only leading to some confusion but also the possibility to have the same game as FIFA. Yes, about the approach, in most cases, this is the way it is held here on Evo-web discussion. Same, it is quite hard to track.

Before submission, let's see it together. Now the question is are we waiting for konami or our initiative ? sure, it seems to be a voluntary work for the worst.

My two cents. Hope can be started for PES 2013.

PS : Any word from Marty, yet ?
 
romagnoli said:
I guess it's easier for feedback about nets to be passed on to Japan than it is to talk about very fiddly technical details via a third party like Jon. After all, it's not just Seabass who needs to understand, but Jon (or whoever it is that translates) needs to be able to understand it and be able to convey it in both languages.
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Couldn't agree more but the simplicity and less complex language from a feedback plays important rules too. The shorter and the simpler it is the easier for them to understand. Dont you think there is some japanese member over here, like jenkey if language barrier is too much a problem ?

OOT, Jenkey's pes 2011 tool is great :WORSHIP:
 
Thespeedster84 said:
@Darth,

I sometimes look back at PESfan "have your say", WENB's, and pesgaming's feedback thread thinking that is a good job at least trying to cater fan's wishes. I dont know how it was summarized and feedback procedures is done, either waiting for konami staff to read that as they wish or just send them a bulk of document.
Click to expand...

That's what is done at WENB. But I do think some stuff is lost in translation, overlooked, even with a well structured, summarized feedback document. I don't think any of the devs there knows enough English to understand it all, and I know from experience that if translators aren't competent enough, they often "do it all wrong", specially if they don't know much about what they're translating. I think they should look for ways to improve this aspect, such as having a proper European dev team, not just PR representative like we currently have, but one that actually contributes to the game development and makes stating their intents easier in terms of understanding what fans really want.
 
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Yeah that was my blog mate, its pretty much redundant as I have no info and I never wanted to be a news site, just a place where I can drop some long thoughts in to keep me sane while I was unemployed at the time.

But the lack of anything now from Konami has killed it stone dead.
 
DarthKebab said:
Yeah that was my blog mate, its pretty much redundant as I have no info and I never wanted to be a news site, just a place where I can drop some long thoughts in to keep me sane while I was unemployed at the time.

But the lack of anything now from Konami has killed it stone dead.
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Actually, this particular period of time of "nothingness" is pretty usual. The problem is, the information we got up until now wasn't substantial enough, therefore there's a big lack of things to discuss. We could talk about AI improvements and gameplay additions but even about that we know the "theory", we haven't seen any of it yet... We should.
 
DarthKebab said:
I know the game will be excellent this year but the point I was putting across to Konami was it will still sell poor, where are the webdocs detailing the changes? Where is there a focused official place for opinions where the devs can make themselves known and be seen as being active? Which casual gamer (which is every companies targeted audience even if they don't admit) has heard of a WENB or a PESfan? They have the most popular sport inthe world and making the best representation of it yet they are treating it like a niche title, why isnt there a trailer with Murphy talking over the changes! Times have changed but they are still acting like 10 years ago, one man on twitter does not cut it (I said it nicer to them though)

And thats not about budgets either, all the above is achievable with existing staff, the only part which is budget related and is unfair and misleading is the deal EA made with Future Publishing last year, hint, if you ever read a magazine which has the words "world exclusive review" across the front of it be very wary!
Click to expand...

What deal did EA make with Future Publishing? (Note, allegedly, just in case!).

I agree with everything you say here though, Konami will always sell poorly compared to FIFA because of the way the game is marketed, plain and simple. It's bizarre they never learnt from the PS2 days, when they had the far superior game yet FIFA still outsold it for the main part.

Konami should engage the community of gamers online, and if they're going to market the game in the west, they need to actually tailor it to meet the target audience's expectations. I mean seriously, I winced at last year's promotional video showing off the game with some awful music playing that was like a cross between 90's videogame music and jazz. It shouldn't matter of course, the product should sell itself, but this kind of thing turns the more casual people out there right off. Similarly, the total lack of any kind of videos highlighting new features, ways of playing etc is bizarre, especially with a near series reboot that we had this year. Really bizarre. Having one man on twitter who kind of sounds like he's being fed info just to pass on to us doesn't cut it.

That said, the ML beta last year was a nice touch, and helps with the game's promotion a little, but the whole feel of PES needs to be more current to identify with more of the general public. Seeing some video with videogame jazz playing over the top, then seeing Konami release a video showing five Japanese guys in an audio booth trying to sound like a 50,000 crowd aren't the way to promote a game to the masses in Europe. Not when FIFA are simultanously releasing promo videos detailing all their gimmicks set to some modern electro band, for example.
 
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As soon as PES is in a position to advertise itself to the casual market, I'm sure it will do exactly that. If anything though, as long as it's selling well to the hardcore, Konami can afford to take a bit longer to regroup and spend more of their budget elsewhere (though I agree it's not just down to money) until they're in a position to broaden out to try and win over casuals from EA.
 
LTFC - wasn't told or asked for specifics but when you read a review saying 10/10 Football Perfection in a world exclusive review then that magazine becoming prominent in electronic adboards, adverts etc you kind of get the drift, look we all know know it happens on a lot of big games, then all the other reviews followed from that publisher which was enough to make me cancel my subscription to one of their magazines after 13 years, a real eye opener.
 
here some impression for you guys

A Dream Come True

Itʼs 10.07 in the morning, the sky is a bit cloudy but itʼs warm. I stand in front of Konami of Europe HQ in
Frankfurt (Main). Itʼs some kind of a special moment for me. For years, I have envied magazines and
websites (like WENB) for getting early access to games and PES, especially. I wanted to be with them,
play with them, discuss the game. Today, Iʼm going to do the same. Iʼm here to play an early version of
PES 2012. Together with Marvin from prorevo, who has invited me. Itʼs a dream that has come true. But
enough sentiments, letʼs plunge into work (or should I say fun?).

Who Moved For Motion?

I was honoured with the role of the spectator in the first match as Marvin played against a Konami
employee. First thing that struck me was the motion on the pitch even before the playersʼ entrance. A
few groundsmen were walking over the field and checked the grass. A few moments later, the view
switched and you see the referees talking a bit, before they led the players out of the catacombs.
Camera men, stewards, managers, all moving and looking great. They didnʼt stop to move when the
match started, no, you could see the managers walking up and down in the coaching area, the cameras
tried to follow the ball, the stewards walked along the boundaries of the field and the stewards were
looking back onto the pitch from time to time; they normally look at the crowd. Just as they do in real
life. Nice touch with regards to the crowd: they wore the kits of the home team, looked really cool.
Moving to the on-the-field-event. There were many new animations for sliding, passing and shooting
but for little things as well. For instance, when another defender was going to cover another attacker, he
waved to his team mates that heʼd take over from them. If a player realised, that he would not reach the
ball with a kick, he pulled back. Wow. Oh, and when we played with national teams, volunteers were
standing/sitting next to the teams, holding the particular national banner.
Altogether, very eMOTIONal.

Can You Keep Up?

I think, that could have been the phrase Christiano Ronaldo said to Badstuber when he ran past him.
Badstuber couldnʼt. Germany conceded a goal. Doesnʼt sound like PES 2011, does it? Well, it isnʼt.
PES 2012 manages to balance those two aspects, attacking and defending, that represent the core of
football. Attackers can outsmart defenders and vice versa. Take that example from above. Ronaldo kept
the ball close to his feet, fooled the defender by shifting to the left and passed him by on the other side.
With no one left to block him, he could even outran Badstuber by a few meters and had enough time to
place his shot. Would you like an example to prove the opposite? Marvin played against me with Messi.
Messi went missing for 90 minutes. Say no more.
The keepers keep you well in play, rest assured. They seemed to be more aggressive at corner kicks or
free kicks and plucked the ball out of the air. They were more reliable and overall good. In 25 matches
we had maybe one situation where we thought the keeper could have kept that ball.

Thatʼs Not Fair!

Erm, it is. Why? Because the referee said so. And he was always right.
You can say that refereeʼs are fixed and much better than last year. Neither did they shed cards nor
were they mean when it came to yellow-/red-carding. They acted just… right. We never felt as if we
were betrayed by the referee.
It was the same with offside. We had maybe three or four off side situations and they were all correct.
At one point, Marvin stopped to play because he thought my player to be offside. However, the referee
was right again. Too bad I missed my shot.
A word (or two) concerning penalty kicks. As Adam already said, the camera is back to normal, behind
the player who earned the penalty kick. It works, and it works great. It is fair.

Thatʼs What I Call Intelligence.

I wonʼt go into detail here about player behaviour. Not yet, as I canʼt at the moment. But I will tell you
about that loss I tweeted earlier. The glorious 1-4 defeat. Yes, I lost against a lower rated team and I
loved it. In PES 2011, if a player was near your goal, he tried to shoot, most of the time. In PES 2012, it
is completely different. It feels alive. Letʼs go:
0 – 1: Counter attack by my opponent, four defenders, three attackers, one in the middle, one on each
side. I closed the center striker down and expected him to shoot. However, he played a high deadly
pass to the left winger who slowed down the ball, took a short look and played a precise cross to the
right outer corner of my box. To the right winger, of course, who then hit home volley. I was like:
ʻawwwwʼ (eyes wide open).
0 – 2: Mistake by myself, I passed the ball to an attacker instead of kicking it away. He outsmarted my
keeper! He feinted a shot, moved the ball out my keepers reach, ran a few yards and scored.
0 – 3: The best goal today. An attacker got the ball in my 18 yard area. However, he didnʼt shoot
instantly – what he would have done in PES 2011 – but laid the ball back for an attacker that was in a
much better position to shoot – and to score, of course. He lifted his foot and played the ball with so
much silkiness that I lowered the controller and stopped playing. My mouth copied the behaviour of my
eyes. I think I replayed it 4 times? Needless to say that I had none but one chance to score in the first
70 minutes – I hit the post.
0 – 4: Nice header after I mistimed the header of my defender. Timing is extremely important in this
game. Not once did I have the feeling that the CPU cheated me. I always mistimed actions. And I knew
that I failed.
1 – 4: 88 minute, regular goal, nothing special. Of course not, as it was I who scored.
Whew!

I played that match with wide cam because this pitch side cam takes time to get used to. Furthermore, I
used the “completely manual” setting for passes which was complicated enough. About an hour before
we left, I tried to combine this setting with the new cam. Looks great, plays great, I got smashed. By the
gameplay, by the AI.

So is it the perfect package?

Sadly, it isnʼt. Two things are spoiling the party, at least a bit. One thing is shooting but thatʼs covered by
Adamʼs essay already.
The other thing is a bit weird to explain. When you pass the ball to or behind a team mate (deadly
pass), that player runs towards the ball and then, all of a sudden, slows down and jogs towards the ball.
Meanwhile, an opponent might run there and steal you the ball. It doesnʼt happen all the time, but
worryingly often. Something I will need to see how it changes through development.
 
The above PES5 ad was banned.

They should recreate the PES5 box art with Messi and Ronaldo, its crying out for it. Instant attention grabber in the shops.

{Edited by Lami}- Click on the spoiler to see latest images:
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Stade de France has re-emerged from the Konami Triangle:

{Edited by Lami}- Click on the spoiler to see latest images:
4e172f9610eb5.jpg
 
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the 4 difficulty and all the other things is fixed,and ome more thing the facial expression look great and very realistic in motion.
 
i very much doubt they will get shooting right before release. but overall sounds like a good improvement over 2011. can't wait to try it or at least see some footage.
 
zeemeister said:
Yeah I dont know the whole shooting is broken story. People are still saying that about PES2011 and I think its damn good and pretty realistic
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Thing is, Adam didn't had any problem with PES 2011 shooting and it simply wasn't good on his playtest. Surely it's not about it's mechanics, something else.
 
zeemeister said:
Yeah I dont know the whole shooting is broken story. People are still saying that about PES2011 and I think its damn good and pretty realistic
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Really Zee ?

I mean yes, i understand to certaint extent what konami wants to deliver regarding PES 2011 shooting, it is related body position, angles, being pressured or not, stronger foot, position of the ball to players foot, jogging or running, etc but in some cases output of the ball physic ruins it. i mean REALLY bad.
 
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