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PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Someone commented on my video in the video thread that I had no one in the crowd during a master league match - I have my own created team and stadium and it's my first season. Could it already be in there but it's not as noticeable?
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
Someone commented on my video in the video thread that I had no one in the crowd during a master league match - I have my own created team and stadium and it's my first season. Could it already be in there but it's not as noticeable?
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i noticed this, too
when i was in second division with Rosenborg on my ml offline the stadium was almost empty, now it has much more crowd, but it's not full yet
so, crowd attendance is definitely in, the problem is the crowd noise is always the same
even when the stadium is almost empty the crowd noise is loud as the stadium is full of people
i remember this was not the case with ps2 pes, in fact in pes 5 when the stadium was almost empty the noise was like the one during training,very low,and it was just a little bit louder when there was a goal or a miss opportunity

it really gave you the feeling you were playing in a less important match
 
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Yup, variable attendance is there in PES 2011 ML, probably in BAL too.

In ML campaigns with Div2 teams stadium is nearly empty. In campaigns where I used strong(er) Div1 team with huge fanbase, there was full stadium in home matches, but still nearly empty stadiums in e.g. away cup matches against Div2 opposition.

It's there, but unfortunately, as we all saw:
- it isn't configurable via menus for exhibition matches
- 'amount of noise' being generated doesn't correspond to the size of the audience
 
It's been 5 years that I've asking the game to be fully manual with the D-pad only for tactical settings you could save.About fucking time it's implemented :D
 
What annoys me so much about variable attendances is that it's already ingame. Just needs an option to select the attendance in friendlies and tournaments.

As for crowd noise, i dunno. Playing WE9 it seems the crowd noise was the same all the time even in near empty stadiums. I just tested it and there was a change but not a huge change. just felt a bit more 'echo' like. I think it's a general bug!

Still variable attendances please god!
 
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allewet said:
guess what though, they are in direct competition. if they don't release it early enough people simply aren't going to buy it to play it for what, 4 months? most people are already sick of pes 2011 and fifa 11 and waiting for the new one title to arrive. also this extra 2-3 months, is this going to be a one-off delay or pes titles are going to go through 16 month development cycles from now on? that would be even worse. they are never going to do that. fortunately.


more polish? see what happened to duke nukem forever. developers took so long to 'polish' this game, around a decade, for it to finally come out with (maybe polished) noughties graphics and gameplay which are absurd. to an extent there is a point in time where you gotta release your game and it better be polished by that time. for seasonal sports game, that is when the season starts



no one wants to play the game when the season is over no matter how good it is.
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Don't agree with any of this. Firstly, I don't think a delay for the game would hurt sales, the same people who currently buy it would still buy the game a little later, even more so if the extra development time meant that the game was looking awesome. As for 16 month development cycles, that would be great, the more time Konami have the better. Short cycles between games is exactly what's holding back the football genre in games. You don't see other companies releasing sequels to games every 12 months, look at the likes of Killzone, Drake's Fortune, Gears of War, Halo etc. They all rely on having longer development cycles and it largely pays off.

Secondly, Duke Nukem' was a one off. They didn't spend 10 years 'polishing' the game, but it was obviously plagued with problems from the start. What ended up was them effectively trying to polish a turd, which you can't really get away with these days.

Thirdly, do you seriously only want to play football games for the duration of the season? Not sure that speaks for everyone else. If anything, a good football game gives me a decent quota of football over the summer when the season is over. It tides me over until the next season starts in real life.

On a different note, I've read the impressions on the Winning Eleven site and it sounds amazing, though I'm still reticent to get excited because I know all about that particular site and their tendency to exaggerate, shall we say. However, the write up does include an accurate and balanced criticism of PES 2011's problems before saying how they've largely been fixed.

Trying to not get excited for this game, as it's still waaaaay off being released, but it's difficult!
 
LTFC said:
Thirdly, do you seriously only want to play football games for the duration of the season? Not sure that speaks for everyone else. If anything, a good football game gives me a decent quota of football over the summer when the season is over. It tides me over until the next season starts in real life.
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Agree. Not just that, i like to just keep things i that current season until i get the new game. When i first get the game it's all about the clubs! Then after the season finishes i update the national teams or play with south Americans etc.. So I'm looking forward to Copa America :) and playing with internationals. Copa Librtadores etc.. :BOP:

Again, still enjoying PES 2011, even though i'm seeing more bugs that usual. (disk scratched maybe :LOL:)
 
kobayashi said:
Again, still enjoying PES 2011, even though i'm seeing more bugs that usual. (disk scratched maybe :LOL:)
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I remember this happening to me on PC.

When first playing the game out of the box and then patching it to the official 1.03 patch, at first everything didnt seem as bad, but little by little things seemed to get worse.

In one game my centre back did the Pirlo shuffle 3 times resulting in me conceding a goal on one occasion.I really dont see how that could happen. Maybe teamvision blows a fuse after so many games. :CONFUSE:

Edit - sorry thought i was posting in the 2011 thread.
 
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LTFC said:
Don't agree with any of this. Firstly, I don't think a delay for the game would hurt sales, the same people who currently buy it would still buy the game a little later, even more so if the extra development time meant that the game was looking awesome. As for 16 month development cycles, that would be great, the more time Konami have the better. Short cycles between games is exactly what's holding back the football genre in games. You don't see other companies releasing sequels to games every 12 months, look at the likes of Killzone, Drake's Fortune, Gears of War, Halo etc. They all rely on having longer development cycles and it largely pays off.
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a delay for seasonal sport games do hurt the sales big time, period. business is pouncing on the opportunity and for these games that is when the season is about to start, in the build up to the season, new transfers, everyone wanting to try their new team, do a season or two on manager mode or whatever. as for 16 month development cycles, that's probably the most stupid idea i have ever encountered. just to give you a tidbit, that 'solution' of yours would mean 3 games every 4 years. for games like fifa and pes, that is suicide. fortunately they will never do it.
 
Like every year the WENB playtest comments make the game sound like a footballing masterpiece but we've heard before haven't we.

Amazing & very ironic how WENB can write a masterclass on the ills of PES 2011 when it's time for yet another yearly ... PES 2012 in this case. I mean SO many pointed how much these problems frustrated them out of the game a month or so after 2011 release & much of these issues were gleamed over as minor when they all together produce a highly frustrating experience, almost unplayable at times.

Some of the the things they say are plainly paradoxical, for instance they mention the refs are 99% (99 freaking percent?!?) spot on yet they were complaining of how they'd call fouls on tackles where the ball was won - a hallmark PES 2011 trait regarding tackling from behind or slide tackles.

Having said that, reading into what Suff was saying ... either there really is a significant change. But then again he could have been sucked in by the hype. I'm more inclined to believe it might hold it's own this year ... we'll see. It could be a serious game if all these features are implemented successfully which has always been a problem with konami.

Taking into consideration WENB's previous hyping of the franchise I suppose one really should take all this in with an IV of sodium attached. But I must say the below quotation was a pretty spot on account of the pitfalls of 2011.

Lets develop that last point. Dribbling in context in PES 2011 is actually excellent. Beyond laboring the point of inertia, it’s well developed and thought out, with realism the key point. No foot sliding, no turning into impossible angles, all believable. Problem is, it lacked fluidity. It also screamed lack of faith from Konami, as they clearly weakened its effectiveness in release code. The slowing down of a dribbler’s speed, and implementing what we now call the catch up bug, created an extremely frustrating experience.

It’s an offset of variables all hindering each other. Slowing down dribbling speed and creating heavy touches, but at the same time making any physical presence powerful, with the ability to stumble the player and take him out of your control. Then there was the fact defenders never committed into a challenge, meaning your nice two-touch dribbles that created space never allowed you the opportunity to put distance between you and the player you’re facing. Because A) he was never trying to win the ball, just contain, and B) Konami were worried about players being able to fly past people so they put in a catch up mechanism. So even if you did beat a man, you wouldn’t be able to stay ahead for long.
Lets keep this web of evil spinning.


So the physicality in the game created a feeling of not wanting to hold onto the ball for any length of time when under pressure. Mix in inconsistent referees that you never really trust, and it makes the player never trusting the game will play out fairly. Now you know how Mourinho feels.


So not wanting to hold the ball meant you’d pass, and pass quickly. Here we realized the flaws of the ball physics and general rules a player could break. Inconsistent outcomes with accuracy and power bar never gave any sort of satisfaction. Passes were easy to misplace without reason. The new freedom elements were a godsend, but the directness and laser guided feel and excessive speed made it all look and feel unrealistic. It was like setting the coordinates to a missile and watching it go.


It almost felt like players would think the same, avoiding through ball interceptions as if their leg might get blown off. And even if they did intercept, passing it first time was not allowed. Unwritten law apparently.
Wind back to the catch up bug, as I feel it has a lot to do with shooting. Again it’s all about taking your time when in space in front of goal, but even when put clean through, there’s never any feeling of trust in the game playing out things how you would want. Players would catch up in an instant, and getting that time and space would be at premium. Especially with the inconsistent outcome of the shot, and the time it took your player to actually fire it off.
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source

This is a truly brilliant write-up of why PES 2011, although having a promising foundation, is a very flawed game. It's a pity how PES fanatics never seem to consider these observations or simply allay them to user error or whatever conjured up excuse for really horrible game decisions & implementations until a newer title is in the horizon.

All very interesting times nonetheless.
 
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TanMak said:
...

Some of the the things they say are plainly paradoxical, for instance they mention the refs are 99% (99 freaking percent?!?) spot on yet they were complaining of how they'd call fouls on tackles where the ball was won - a hallmark PES 2011 trait regarding tackling from behind or slide tackles.

...
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Despite my gripes about refereeing in 2011, to my liking, this moment you talk about should be in PES 2012 provided that it happens very rare occasion that could fit match time scale. Just like in real life. It's fun to shout at Ref while playing if from our POV he makes wrong decision.

The same as unresponsive button press for defender stopping through ball or pass from opponent for example while being counter-attacked. while running back and body position of defender, in real world sometimes we see defender could not properly stop the ball. To justify this and let myself enjoy PES 2011. I thought this may be what konami wants to convey in PES 2011 :)) but unfortunately is not good if button responsiveness is the one to be sacrifies to deliver this. Just my thought tho.
 
Speedster_84 said:
Despite my gripes about refereeing in 2011, to my liking, this moment you talk about should be in PES 2012 provided that it happens very rare occasion that could fit match time scale. Just like in real life. It's fun to shout at Ref while playing if from our POV he makes wrong decision.

The same as unresponsive button press for defender stopping through ball or pass from opponent for example while being counter-attacked. while running back and body position of defender, in real world sometimes we see defender could not properly stop the ball. To justify this and let myself enjoy PES 2011. I thought this may be what konami wants to convey in PES 2011 :)) but unfortunately is not good if button responsiveness is the one to be sacrifies to deliver this. Just my thought tho.
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Execution & implimentation, something else Konami always struggle with. I'm all for programmed error & a realistic frequency to said situations but as it is in PES 2011 - it is a consistent referee problem with regards to tackles from the side or behind being punished although fair. The issue with the defenders is again the frequency and consistent lack of awareness by your AI players combined with unresponsive controls & player selection that create an avalanche of frustration.

I would love x factor situations like re-introducing handballs, offide & penalty errorneous decisions etc to make the game more dynamic but of course these should come with a slider of frequency perhaps as well as a choice of having them in at all.
 
tak, with the refs. I wouldn't be to worried this time. Both PES 2010 and 2011 have had pretty shocking bad collision detection (especially 2011, it's plain shit) So with the farce over tackles and almost no advantage play whatsoever! Along with collisions in general being poor. The refs where never going to be great. They are just about bearable for me.

I could see by the E3 trailer and in one of the close up user videos the collisions are now properly up to standard. so the ref's will follow suit!

That's why i haven't voiced my concerns on 2012 much. Because Konami are using their common sense and fixing the obvious and showing us in good time. Last year it was a little more ambiguous since PES 2010 was deeply broken and PES 2011 focused so much on the brand new movement.
 
TanMak said:
Some of the the things they say are plainly paradoxical, for instance they mention the refs are 99% (99 freaking percent?!?) spot on yet they were complaining of how they'd call fouls on tackles where the ball was won - a hallmark PES 2011 trait regarding tackling from behind or slide tackles.
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The usual wenb hyperbole unfortunately. If refs are still getting many decisions badly wrong then saying they are 99% fixed is just stupid. Thing is, in the run-up to PES2013 they will then say how bad the refs in 2012 were.

That's the name of the game with them though. Still, Suff sounded very enthusiastic about PES2012, something unheard of on this gen. Whether you like the guy or not, he does talk a lot of sense.
 
Jamezinho said:
Agreed. The first generation football games on a new console are generally gash so wouldn't be missed. That would be the ideal time to take a year out.
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They dont need to wait for ps4. start developing it for the pc's and dumb it down for consoles like what BF3 is doing
 
Very small feature, but does anyone else miss that "view stadia" option in the Gallery in the PS2 PES games?

You could view any stadium in the game from various camera angles, really showed off the graphics well I thought - impressed me in the PS2 days anyway.

Might be nice to have the ability to view some accurately modelled stadia from various angles, if only to get an idea as to what they look like in real life.

I also used to use it to check out the pitch textures so that I could choose one I liked for my ML side's home ground, I seem to remember the stadium "Porto Folio" having nice green turf, and there was another with a particularly horrible yellow/brown pitch with weird lines down it which I edited out of every team in my ML :P.

Just remembered it for some reason, it's one in a long list of things that have disappeared from the series over the years, along with situation training (which if done properly, would be so important such is the depth of the game), challenge training, International Challenge, random selection matches, kit mixing, snow, breath effects, shorts getting muddy, serious injuries, proper fatigue, the tactical arrows and probably much more...

By no means do I want a PES6 clone, far from it, but they should bring back the stuff they've done well in the past.
 
How about when players go down they roll around clutching their face and get stretchered off and while they're on the sidelines getting worked on, you can kick the ball at them lol
 
I'd love them (wenb guys)to give more informations about the 1v1s between attackers and defenders.The way it appeared in the trailer was great but I'd like to know if the duel is balanced.I mean that it would take real skill to dribble past or stop the opponent and if for instance the CPU can use that dribble mode as realistically as possible cause a decent human player could
 
Lami said:
The bloody awful Cuito Cuanavale stadium that made my eyes bleed. I did the same as you, editing it out of every team in PES.
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Oh god. Memories. Brescia. 93rd minute. Knocking out my ML team in the D2 cup. FUCK YOU BAGGIO. FUCK YOU.
 
kouroux said:
I'd love them (wenb guys)to give more informations about the 1v1s between attackers and defenders.The way it appeared in the trailer was great but I'd like to know if the duel is balanced.I mean that it would take real skill to dribble past or stop the opponent and if for instance the CPU can use that dribble mode as realistically as possible cause a decent human player could
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Listen to the podcast :)
 
allewet said:
a delay for seasonal sport games do hurt the sales big time, period. business is pouncing on the opportunity and for these games that is when the season is about to start, in the build up to the season, new transfers, everyone wanting to try their new team, do a season or two on manager mode or whatever. as for 16 month development cycles, that's probably the most stupid idea i have ever encountered. just to give you a tidbit, that 'solution' of yours would mean 3 games every 4 years. for games like fifa and pes, that is suicide. fortunately they will never do it.
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So let's get this straight, you think that it's better for Konami to release the game, unfinished, in October so you can have a quick couple of seasons then abandon it later in the year, rather than wait just 8 or so weeks and have a massively more polished and complete game. Hmm.

As for releasing the game in October, I don't buy what you're saying. The fact is that the two games come out at the same time, but Konami's sales had been falling with each year, and that directly corresponded with the largely held opinion that the game had gotten worse and worse. So, no, just getting the game out to correspond with FIFA hasn't helped it's sales in the slightest. No game with a reputation for being a bit shit will ever succeed, which is why if it's necessary for Konami to release the game a little later to improve it's quality, then the better wider opinion will ultimately sell more copies in the long run, as well as garnering the wider opinion that the game is a viable competitor to FIFA.

The same analogy can be said about Modern Warfare 2 and Battlefield. MW2 came out around October, sold by the bucketloads (like FIFA), but then along came Battlefield Bad Company 2 nearly 5 months later in March, and it's done incredibly well because it's proven to be a far better game. Subsequently, the critical success has meant that the next instalment of Battlefield 3 is destined to become huge. Had DICE rushed out Bad Company 2 months early just to coincide with MW2's release, you'd have had a far worse game and it wouldn't have converted a lot of people in the first place, and the Battlefield franchise wouldn't have kicked off anywhere as much as it seems to be this year.

Quality sells, not early release dates. Sure, if you can get the game out to compete with FIFA then great, but only if the quality is right - because if it's not, people will still buy FIFA in October and not PES.

I see what you say, if the games were evenly matched then one coming out later would be commercial suicide, but they're not. General opinion has swung to the point where the majority seem to think FIFA is now the market leader for football games, and Konami need to make sure their title begins to overtake EA's game in quality before they even start to think about getting their release dates in early.

As for the 16 month cycle being ludicrous, well, that depends on what you want. I want a game where each new edition has great improvements in gameplay, features, graphics, everything. You on the other hand seem happy to have the same game released at the beginning of each season with a couple of extra bells and whistles attached, and new kits, nothing more. Which is fine. All depends on what you want. But if you want them to release a game each October and expect massive improvements each time, it ain't gonna happen, because developers need more time than that. Take the Halo series. It's considered one of the best examples of the FPS genre, but in 10 years they've only released, what, 4 games? I wouldn't say that should be the case for football games of course, but improvements and advancements take time, something consumers themselves aren't allowing.
 
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LTFC said:
So let's get this straight, you think that it's better for Konami to release the game, unfinished, in October so you can have a quick couple of seasons then abandon it later in the year, rather than wait just 8 or so weeks and have a massively more polished and complete game. Hmm.

As for releasing the game in October, I don't buy what you're saying. The fact is that the two games come out at the same time, but Konami's sales had been falling with each year, and that directly corresponded with the largely held opinion that the game had gotten worse and worse. So, no, just getting the game out to correspond with FIFA hasn't helped it's sales in the slightest. No game with a reputation for being a bit shit will ever succeed, which is why if it's necessary for Konami to release the game a little later to improve it's quality, then the better wider opinion will ultimately sell more copies in the long run, as well as garnering the wider opinion that the game is a viable competitor to FIFA.

The same analogy can be said about Modern Warfare 2 and Battlefield. MW2 came out around October, sold by the bucketloads (like FIFA), but then along came Battlefield Bad Company 2 nearly 5 months later in March, and it's done incredibly well because it's proven to be a far better game. Subsequently, the critical success has meant that the next instalment of Battlefield 3 is destined to become huge. Had DICE rushed out Bad Company 2 months early just to coincide with MW2's release, you'd have had a far worse game and it wouldn't have converted a lot of people in the first place.

Quality sells, not early release dates. Sure, if you can get the game out to compete with FIFA then great, but only if the quality is right - because if it's not, people will still buy FIFA in October and not PES.

I see what you say, if the games were evenly matched then one coming out earlier would be commercial suicide, but they're not. General opinion has swung to the point where the majority seem to think FIFA is now the market leader for football games, and Konami need to make sure their title begins to overtake EA's game in quality before they even start to think about getting their release dates in early.
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Bold part, you're so wrong. FIFA would simply dominate the market from that year on, even if the game released in the next year was technically superior in every aspect. Konami would lose buckets of money. It's simply not viable, specially now...

PES games never felt incomplete in the last gen because the original formula was really good and all they had to do was improve on it. This gen has been a mess with completely different games each year. PES 2012 is the first game to build completely on it's precedent base. And tbh, I don't think releasing games or not releasing them has a real impact in allowing them to build "the good stuff".

PES2012 is already sounding like a "masterpiece" in terms of gameplay and AI (btw, Jon Murphy is really confident about that: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/309707/news/pes-2012-will-support-d-pad-control/), with only a couple of things to iron out. Obviously in terms of animations and collision systems, sound and atmosphere it's still far behind. But considering the reports on what they've done with gameplay (it was their true focus this year), if the jump is the same in the following years if they decide to focus on that stuff, they wont need to "take a break to rebuild" at all.

So, if you want a game really good in all aspects just skip this years game yourself and buy it next year :P
 
I don't think this has been posted here yet:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/309707/news/pes-2012-will-support-d-pad-control/

C&VG said:
Konami has told CVG that D-pad control will be supported in PES 2012 - despite the company's desire to ditch it.The code the firm showed at E3 earlier this month only allowed for control via the analogue sticks. The news apparently left a handful of vocal fans disgruntled - particularly those that rely on the pad to execute sharp turns during tournament gameplay.

As a result of the feedback, Konami - as community-centric as ever - has now elected to keep the feature in the game. However, it has warned fans that the option won't be in the series forever.

"We've decided not to take out D-Pad this year, because a some fans have told us that they still use it - particularly those ultra-competitive ones who rely on it to quickly change direction," PES Team Leader Jon Murphy told CVG. "The game will default to the twin sticks, but the option will be there to play with a D-Pad.

"Eventually, it will have to come out, so we're encouraging people to move over to the analogue stick. We made a lot of progress last year in a lot of areas, which included freedom of movement. That's a little bit wasted if you use the D-pad, so we don't expect the option will be there in the next couple of years."

CVG caught a behind-the-scenes glimpse at PES's new feature yesterday, and walked away very impressed indeed. Seabass and co's focus this time round has obviously been on pure gameplay, rather than atmospheric 'trinkets'.

Major alterations include a new smart AI, which not only sees CPU-controlled players making much earlier runs, but ensures that defensive players provide more intelligent cover. One of the cleverest new touches relates to set pieces, free kicks and throw ins: players can now use a flick of the right stick to select the recipient of the ball, then manually make a darting run and call for delivery.

The accuracy of goal kicks have also been dramatically improved (hurrah!), whilst the perpetual problem of odd gaps appearing between defence and midfield (and, therefore, the opponent running for yards and yards unchallenged) appears to have been fixed.

"I really do believe that the offering we've got this year will pull some fans back from the competition," said Murphy. "Perhaps we'll see another year when people buy both games, but after six months, we want to make sure they trade-in only one of them - and it's not ours.

"[FIFA] has the atmosphere, the crowds and certain licences we don't - and everybody knows they've got better commentary than us. I can't see that changing. And some of the stuff they're doing with the collisions looks great, depending how it works as you actually play.

"But if you want pure gameplay, I think we'll smash them this year. We've got so many things going for us, but just the lightness of touch and the way the players move independently is fantastic. You notice it instantly.

"You can put the pad down and see your team's movement as individuals. I really hope we can get the demo out to people as soon as possible, because it's all very well me talking about these things - it's when you play it that you see instantly.

"We don't want everyone, it's not about that - we want the front runners, the opinion formers, the players who tell their friends "you've got to check out PES this year". We want to bring them back, and I think we can."
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Bold claims from Murphy.
 
Gotta love the philosphicalismality in theese parts.

My opinion? Games are being bought regardless. Kids will pressure their parents into buying what they want and the cheeky salesman will aid happily. Quality well sell by the bucket-load no matter what. Maybe waiting 2 months is a good decision. By that time, Fifa would have been played and tried to death by many. So people might want to pick up something different for a change after a while. When releasing 2 football games at the same time, one might pick one over the other as they're both the same to him.

That's my falafelosofy.
 
Gotta love the philosophicalismality in these parts.

My opinion? Games are being bought regardless. Kids will pressure their parents into buying what they want and the cheeky salesman will aid happily. Quality will sell by the bucket-load no matter what. Maybe waiting 2 months is a good decision. By that time, Fifa would have been played and tried to death by many. So people might want to pick up something different for a change after a while. When releasing 2 football games at the same time, one might pick one over the other as they're both the same to him.

That's my falafelosofy.
 
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