PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

CalcioCalabrese said:
Budgets and cash are probably more the limitation, than the actual people available to work on it.
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No, budget is not the issue. this game is released every year and sells at least 1 million copies. that's enough to pay everyone on the staff.

I think you might be over simplifying the process of making a game. (Even if it is just to build upon an earlier version like PES 2011-2012.) It is not as easy to create as a few people working on it...
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i am not simplifying. Look at EA. how come they do a great job, but fail at gameplay? that's because they don't have the people to address that issue. (they are selling millions of copies, i know).

5 years! how many years do they need? There is no excuse.

This game is almost perfect. and improving sound will make it even more perfect. 5 years is not simplifying. it's laziness.
 
I work in government finance...I know about budgets. Big dollars my friend lol. Budget issue isn't about having the money. It's about choosing where to spend the money. So they might think sound is not the most pressing problem and focus their expenses on other areas of development.
FIFA has the people to address gameplay...it's probably just their view of what football gameplay should be is not what some of us think. In their eyes, it plays a great game...but to us, there's many faults.
 
Sound is just as important as graphics though. A great sound engineer (with an appropriate budget) can really make the difference in any game. Focusing resources on just the graphics and facial animation, while the sound engineer operates in a broom closet is just bad management. They've said that improvements have been made to the environment, let's hope that said improvements include the sound quality as well.
 
Going back to the commentary with NBA2K11

YouTube - NBA 2K11 Gameplay Video: Philadelphia 76ers vs. New York Knicks with Halftime Show

They don't seem to talk about the action too much. it's true it don't even sound like a video game at all, just seems just like in real life two people just discussing the action. Factor in it's just the NBA with all the licenses and limited teams. I can see PES ever coming near to this.

What could be done like Jamez suggested get a European studio up! Which will take care of all the sounds and have the commentary updated on a regular basis. That should work!
 
DICE are proud of their boombastic audio (War Tapes) in BC2, all companies should feel this way about their product. I once made the mistake of putting a plate on top of my subwoofer whilst playing BC2, one Destruction 2.0 kill later and the rest is history.

If Konami really cared about the quality of the commentary then they would have done something about it. Its a running joke but its not funny anymore.

In recent times they've shown that they are listening and implementing fan feedback. If the commentary is terrible again this year then we the fans should make some noise. The nets people got their hearts desire this year.

Regarding the 200 people working on PES 2011/12, I highly doubt that the same number of people are working on NBA 2K. There is no excuse for having shit audio.

I also don't buy into this nonsense about NBA games being easier to get right because of less teams, players etc. Ask EA if its easy.
 
tobi said:
Regarding the 200 people working on PES 2011/12, I highly doubt that the same number of people are working on NBA 2K. There is no excuse for having shit audio.
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Agree!

I also don't buy into this nonsense about NBA games being easier to get right because of less teams, players etc. Ask EA if its easy.
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All I'm saying is i just don't think PES would reach that level. I mean the commentary on NBA2k11 gives you intricate details on pretty much every NBA player plus you can see in the video they don't commentate play by play with the intensity you would see in Football games. I think FIFA's would be perfect if they upgraded and refreshed their commentary every month, 3 weeks or so! That's the benchmark!
 
Surely it depends on how the game is setup, the NBA Today commentary is deeper than the regular commentary because the game (and the mode) updates everyday. 2K have added new animation pakages into the game via the updates when you boot up the game before so I wouldn't put it past them doing the same with the commentary. I'd imagine though that the core of the audio/lines would be on disc already.

EA should be able to do the same with their equivalent but people would have to pay to for the privilege.

Konami should hire people with experience of writing these scripts and give them all the support they need. Or better still bring the commentators into the studio and have them commentate live.
 
PES 2011 is so good that I'm not expecting too much from PES 2012.
Here are my few

1) Gameplay should be slowed down.
2) ML must have options to change managers and switch teams.
3) Smooth and consistent gameplay.
 
tobi said:
Surely it depends on how the game is setup, the NBA Today commentary is deeper than the regular commentary because the game (and the mode) updates everyday. 2K have added new animation pakages into the game via the updates when you boot up the game before so I wouldn't put it past them doing the same with the commentary. I'd imagine though that the core of the audio/lines would be on disc already.
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Animation packages, wow that's impressive. What animations though? can you explain what they have added. i mean do they have people mo-capping animations 24/7 and they add new ones everyday?

Same with the commentary are the guys creating new lines everyday :CONFUSE:

EA should be able to do the same with their equivalent but people would have to pay to for the privilege.
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FIFA has more important issues to sort out!

Konami should hire people with experience of writing these scripts and give them all the support they need. Or better still bring the commentators into the studio and have them commentate live.
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Like Jamez said, sign with a European studio and let them handle all the audio!
 
I can't remember whether it was 2K10 or 2K11 but they definitely added new dunk packages via the start screen update. On a separate occasion they fixed a bug too.

Regarding the unique commentary lines in NBA Today, that's speculation on my part but sometimes it sounds like I'm watching a game on TV so they must be doing something.

I missed the game European suggestion, I agree with that.
 
Konami have consistently shown that they cannot produce decent audio in-house - be it on-pitch sfx, crowd noise and chants, or commentary - they just can't do the game of football justice.

So I strongly feel they should outsource the work to a company that can do a better job, ideally in Europe, at the heart of football culture.

It's not uncommon for games developers to outsource work. Forza Motorsport is a good example: Turn 10 outsource a lot of the car modelling work to companies using efficient techniques, whereas for GT5 Polyphony Digital did it all in-house with a smaller crew. Each premium car in GT5 took an incredible 6 months to model. The result is that Turn 10 have released three Forzas in the time it took to make GT5.

I sometimes think the Japanese developers are too proud or too controlling to outsource work to companies that could do a better job. Perhaps this is why the Japanese gaming industry is trailing far behind western developers?
 
please stop comparing to other sport titles. if we would all agree that KONAMI is lazy, they would have addressed this issue long time ago.

They should start at the basic. commentary should have fewer lines, but good ones. don't just say Robinho, say it like you say it on tv.

is it so hard to go to a match record some crowd and go to the studio and edit it? what we now have is noise people, NOIISSEEEEEEEEEEEE, not real crowd. as if they recorded a television with no cable and decided to edit that in the studio.

After all these post i am really wondering what the sound engineer is doing right now. if this guy get's 10 months to implement new stuff. there should be improvements, even if they are small improvements. but no, they are from 5 years ago.

pre 2011 release they showed us the studio. they have high tech equipment. Use it KONAMI, use it!!
 
Jamezinho said:
Konami have consistently shown that they cannot produce decent audio in-house - be it on-pitch sfx, crowd noise and chants, or commentary - they just can't do the game of football justice.

So I strongly feel they should outsource the work to a company that can do a better job, ideally in Europe, at the heart of football culture.

It's not uncommon for games developers to outsource work. Forza Motorsport is a good example: Turn 10 outsource a lot of the car modelling work to companies using efficient techniques, whereas for GT5 Polyphony Digital did it all in-house with a smaller crew. Each premium car in GT5 took an incredible 6 months to model. The result is that Turn 10 have released three Forzas in the time it took to make GT5.

I sometimes think the Japanese developers are too proud or too controlling to outsource work to companies that could do a better job. Perhaps this is why the Japanese gaming industry is trailing far behind western developers?
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The motion capture in PS2 days for PES were done in a separate studio (you can see it in the credits), which I imagine was bigger and more appropriate than the in-house "cubicle" they have now... We saw how that turned out... Why can't they!?
 
Jamezinho said:
I sometimes think the Japanese developers are too proud or too controlling to outsource work to companies that could do a better job. Perhaps this is why the Japanese gaming industry is trailing far behind western developers?
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Japanese developers are very proud. I do honestly think that PES has time constraints and the budget thing is an issue more so than anything. I can't help but disagree when you say the Japanese games industry is trailing behind western developers, atleast if you meant in anything but mass-popularity and sales.

The real reason that Western developers sell more and seem to be ahead is because of the level of marketing they do, plain and simple. It just sells games and makes them more recognisable to your average Joe. Even a big japanese game like MGS4 showed this by selling bucket loads because of the big marketing in the west for the game. This remains in stark contrast to so so many other Japanese games which remain generally unheard of in the west because they are released with next to no talk of their release. In fact Konami are one of the few Japanese developers (along with Capcom etc) who actually seem to market their games in the west to any kind of degree. PES is one of the bigger marketed Japanese games IMO but it is still nowhere near the level of big titles from western developers and of course we can draw the comparison of Fifa here.

A Japanese developer like Atlus never seems to market its games (or atleast i can't remember seeing any kind of marketing), they just happen to sell well enough because they've built up a decent reputation in the west. I hadn't even heard of Demon's Souls or Shin Megami Tensei till they kept cropping up on internet forums. It used to be the exact same way with PES. Word of mouth etc. It didn't mean that it mattered if they were trailing behind though. I assume most Japanese devs would rather do this than waste more money on marketing.

I guess i'm a bit baffled that you implied that 'trailing behind' was a negative thing. IMO it makes no difference to the quality of the game and quite frankly if anything i think that Japanese games are better than western games. They seem to be proud to make games that challenge people where as a lot of western devs just make games to please as big a number as possible. I'd rather that they didn't sell out even if that means their place is firmly behind western devs in terms of sales.
 
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Jamezinho said:
Konami have consistently shown that they cannot produce decent audio in-house - be it on-pitch sfx, crowd noise and chants, or commentary - they just can't do the game of football justice.

So I strongly feel they should outsource the work to a company that can do a better job, ideally in Europe, at the heart of football culture.

It's not uncommon for games developers to outsource work. Forza Motorsport is a good example: Turn 10 outsource a lot of the car modelling work to companies using efficient techniques, whereas for GT5 Polyphony Digital did it all in-house with a smaller crew. Each premium car in GT5 took an incredible 6 months to model. The result is that Turn 10 have released three Forzas in the time it took to make GT5.

I sometimes think the Japanese developers are too proud or too controlling to outsource work to companies that could do a better job. Perhaps this is why the Japanese gaming industry is trailing far behind western developers?
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Which companies do you think Konami should talk to for audio purposes?
 
I think it's well known and accepted in the gaming industry that Japanese games aren't hitting the highs they once were. Marketing may play a big part here, I agree. But just going from personal experience of Japanese games I feel they are often suffer from archaic design choices and lack a general progressive feel that western games have on this generation of consoles. They just feel old fashioned to me. PES is a great example, as is GT5. Excellent games in their own right, but could benefit significantly if they swallowed some pride and looked at what the competition does so much better.
 
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kobayashi said:
Which companies do you think Konami should talk to for audio purposes?
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I haven't got a clue Klash, as I have no knowledge of that industry. All I'm saying is there must be audio production companies in Europe that could help.

A bunch of Japanese blokes huddled round a mic trying to recreate European club football chants isn't working.
 
There is an argument to be had that Konami shouldn't be old-fashioned when it comes to sports games because it is all about evolution after all, so if that's what you're saying then i can completely agree with you Jamez.
 
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Jamezinho said:
I haven't got a clue Klash, as I have no knowledge of that industry. All I'm saying is there must be audio production companies in Europe that could help.

A bunch of Japanese blokes huddled round a mic trying to recreate European club football chants isn't working.
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According to Konami's audio team (the one guy) circa PES 3, he went to J-League matches and wore an audio-capturing device on his head... like a cap.

They need to do something anyway, PES has no atmosphere. At least the stadium lighting is spot-on.
 
this year will be the year of gameplay since the birth of this game, the graphics are at peak all that matters right now is the gameplay and that will be accomplished all good news
 
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