PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

curdstar said:
Jimmy, I am not saying there is not first touch mechanics in place in PES2012 (neither was Adam with his post) and I am well aware of the nuances to 1st touch in the game. What is being touted by Konami is further refinement and more depth/options/variety to first touch techniques.

The existing system is not quite the same as that which was found in N64 ISS, and although I do not wish a carbon copy of that games system, something which echoes it in some way would be welcome.
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Fair enough Alan, I'm all for that. It is the most important fundamental basic of footballing technique. So the more it's elaborated on, the better.
 
I bought two new copies so I've done my bit. Perhaps that is what is holding up sales? Us disillusioned fans buying, selling and re-buying the game because, no matter how bad the game is, we still need that PES fix.

I bet the second hand stores are full of copies of PES2012.
 
I've been doing my usual monthly potch, and I'm almost positive each and every patch makes the gameplay worse in terms of CPU super dribble. I formatted the PS3 two days ago and have been doing some test games with myself and watching some games. It seems with the patches (ie anything but out of the box) every CPU player goes forward almost all the time with their initial touch before seeing how far and fast they can sprint and dribble. Occasionally they will pass it, but their first intention to a man, is to dribble forward at high speeds.

Out of the box is a little different to me. The goalies aren't as good granted, but the player positioning (tactics screen) seems to work better, general player positioning (not parking the bus) is better, and CPU players are at least aware a little of where you are and attempt to offload the ball much more than with the patches. Also, there does seem to be more of a midfield battle as a result, yesterday I had a 20 minute Top Player game v Spurs with 6 shots apiece on goal.

What do others think? If only the goalies could be 'fixed' with the out of the box gameplay.
 
this whole talk about r2....KONAMI should really make a proper manual this year. to me r2 is never evident. everyone talking about it is either lying or not explaining it very good.

It amazes me why Japanese gaming developers keep so many things a secret. I do get it, but in a football game?
 
ImpossibleYesbutitsTrue said:
good one :APPLAUD:
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I think scripting is good, especially in defending. Defenders should alway's have an advantages and depending on how good the player is, holding the controller it should calculate if the defender get's beaten.

The scripting in defending was very evident in the ps2 day's. an example was when the ball wasn't even passed the defender would come in front of the player who was supposed to receive the ball. this was to balance the defending and attacking.

It was scripted, but it was good scripting.
 
Yep Rob, that Pes 11 mlo experience, was worth it. I bagged nearly 800 online matches, and was so satisfied with my bunch of players that never went for Messi, Ronaldo, Eto`o, xavi and the likes. My best player (really) was Forlán. Great, great moments i had with that mlo. Pes 12 Mlo is ,for me, u-n-f-u-c-k-i-n-g enjoyable. 17 games it lasted for me, in wich i bagged 27 goals with Oscar Cardozo, without any decent service...lame...
 
Got to say guys I'm having a complete revelation since I formatted my drive and am playing version 1.00 (PS3). Haven't noticed any glaring keeper fk ups that wouldn't have been otherwise, and tonight for the first time since I can remember, the CPU kept possession for an eternity. Playing Swansea as Liverpool, using whatever tactics I wanted, Swansea held onto the ball from 80-86 minutes on the clock - simply unheard of for me playing with the patches.

I have played numerous games in exhibition, and now in ML, and the CPU plays much more like a human using the out of the box game. Possession stats for the last game v Swansea was 52-48 to me. I'm normally around the 63% mark. No CPU AI crazy dribbling, apart from the quick players like Bale feeling like they have some extra dribbling ability.

Why didn't I do this before? For my money, the patches have fked up the gameplay and CPU build up play big-time. Version 1.00 is the way to go for me, and I think I can even put up with the odd blunder should it happen if it means excellent CPU build up play and no parking the bus.
 
ccshopland said:
Got to say guys I'm having a complete revelation since I formatted my drive and am playing version 1.00 (PS3). Haven't noticed any glaring keeper fk ups that wouldn't have been otherwise, and tonight for the first time since I can remember, the CPU kept possession for an eternity. Playing Swansea as Liverpool, using whatever tactics I wanted, Swansea held onto the ball from 80-86 minutes on the clock - simply unheard of for me playing with the patches.

I have played numerous games in exhibition, and now in ML, and the CPU plays much more like a human using the out of the box game. Possession stats for the last game v Swansea was 52-48 to me. I'm normally around the 63% mark. No CPU AI crazy dribbling, apart from the quick players like Bale feeling like they have some extra dribbling ability.

Why didn't I do this before? For my money, the patches have fked up the gameplay and CPU build up play big-time. Version 1.00 is the way to go for me, and I think I can even put up with the odd blunder should it happen if it means excellent CPU build up play and no parking the bus.
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Look here, buddy, before I get all hot and bothered, you better be damn sure! I'm going to have to dig my PES 2012 out of the hole its buried in. And it's not that I don't trust you, but could you post a Match Details photograph? And can you confirm this on Top Player or would I have to play Super Star?
 
ccshopland said:
Got to say guys I'm having a complete revelation since I formatted my drive and am playing version 1.00 (PS3). Haven't noticed any glaring keeper fk ups that wouldn't have been otherwise, and tonight for the first time since I can remember, the CPU kept possession for an eternity. Playing Swansea as Liverpool, using whatever tactics I wanted, Swansea held onto the ball from 80-86 minutes on the clock - simply unheard of for me playing with the patches.

I have played numerous games in exhibition, and now in ML, and the CPU plays much more like a human using the out of the box game. Possession stats for the last game v Swansea was 52-48 to me. I'm normally around the 63% mark. No CPU AI crazy dribbling, apart from the quick players like Bale feeling like they have some extra dribbling ability.

Why didn't I do this before? For my money, the patches have fked up the gameplay and CPU build up play big-time. Version 1.00 is the way to go for me, and I think I can even put up with the odd blunder should it happen if it means excellent CPU build up play and no parking the bus.
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Yeah version 1.00 was by far the best version.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
It's always been there bud, has Adam only just realised this ? We have been talking about First Touch on here since PES 2010 when it became it's most prominent.

The First Touch is very evident now individuality wise, with or without R2.
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Yep. First touch was very prominent in PES 2010 but hardly any one seems to have noticed. Its definitely in the game this year with the 'ball control' stat. e.g. when Wilshere receives the ball or gets his first touch, I can feel a big difference compared to lower stat players. It especially helps in midfield if you have a high ball control stat, as you're able to control the ball more easily under pressure and transition to a smooth dribble or a more accurate pass more quickly out of your feet which won't be struggling to control the ball.

It's enhanced also because in general dribbling is improved - you really feel the physics, momentum, weight shifting, inertia, leg placement to a greater degree and with more fluid animations in 2012.

If they've ramped it up even further in 2013 that'll be great, but we shouldn't go to extremes, it is ALREADY in 2012, sometimes you don't even need R2 if the player is good enough.

henrys hand said:
Actually, there are nowadays quite a lot of teams in which every player has no problems getting the ball under control and receiving even hard passes with ease. It was different just a few years (5-15) back, in former times only the offensive players had a good first-touch, but this sort of technical ability sort of expanded to the midfield-players and eventually to the defenders as well.
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I too had the notion when playing the demos that too many players could control and dribble too well, but they've improved things in the final game, not everyone can, there are subtle and nuanced differences. I think the complaints stem from the generally improved responsiveness compared to 2011, which can make it SEEM like dribbling and technique comes too readily for most players, but look more deeply and you can definitely see the differences. They are professional footballers after all, there has to be a general level of trapping the ball and being able to pass at a basic level.

I'm speaking mainly from building my master league online teams, some are expert dribblers with wonderful technique like wilshere, others are cloggers like De Jong with less technique that you can actually feel subtle and sometimes larger differences. But I actually pick most of my players to have good technique to suit a passing game.
 
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That's the thing you notice a lot of when you play a master league or a MLO. Which players have certain strengths and in what areas. So you definitely need to know your players inside out to get the best out of your PES experience. FIFA on the other hand offers quite a generic experience, despite the shiny exterior.

I mean when Messi and Van Persie hit rockets from outside the 18 yard box with their RIGHT foot, you can't exactly call that game a simulation...
 
radha1 said:
Look here, buddy, before I get all hot and bothered, you better be damn sure! I'm going to have to dig my PES 2012 out of the hole its buried in. And it's not that I don't trust you, but could you post a Match Details photograph? And can you confirm this on Top Player or would I have to play Super Star?
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Err, bit aggressive aren't you. I'm just stating my findings, it's up to whoever to test them and see if it fits them. All I know is that in five games from the start of the ML season, the games have been much more enjoyable, CPU build up play is definitely more prevalent, shooting and passing is excellent, and the players actually do what they are commanded on the tactics board. I think somewhere with all these patches, there has been quite bad gameplay changes.

My examples, like I said, are Swansea who gave me a 52-48% game on TP, zero assists, -1 gamespeed. Blackburn who gave me a 55-45 game and now currently AEK Athens, who are 1-0 up at half time, with 48% possession. The things I have noticed is that players who haven't got high dribbling/response/cards, play like they would, and by that I mean will look to go forward if there is space, but ultimately pass the ball around a bit. I never felt this with 1.03. It seemed all players, and indeed from testing and watching games, go forward all the time with their first touch almost sprint like.

There's a nice variation between parking the bus teams (cos this does happen IRL) and teams that commit players and formations forward. This has the double edged sword it seems of making you pass through their midfield whilst also giving you the ability to counter attack should it be on.

The key to it al though is still good defending; defending and patience some times, and aggressive pressure some other times is ultimately what it boils down to. All I know is that I'm playing the same way defensively as WITH the patches, and the games are far more balanced, scripts have been a minimum or none (so far) and in patches in games, the CPU is keeping hold of possession for lengthy periods. Like I say, I couldn't believe it last night when Swansea (or Swearcle) out of the box, kept possession for literally a minute of Earth time - something that just amazed me after recent months.

EDIT -

Just to add, finished my game v Athens and was well and truly schooled. 3-1. Did I enjoy it...oh yes. The three goals from AEK were essentially passing moves. For some reason 1.00 is more contextual, again AEK played some prolonged periods of football, passing it sideways, back etc. Possession was 55-45 to me I believe, but even the possession stats don't tell the full story. You see the computer may have decent possession stats with the game patched, but if all they do is dribble dribble dribble then it's misleading. When the CPU actually passes the ball about a little sometimes even 60-40 to the human can seem more like 50-50, it's difficult to explain. The second goal from AEK their striker skinned my CB Ayala, BUT, dribbling out of the box (1.00) from the CPU seems more contextual and believable. To get to that situation they played four or five nice passes, then their striker totally skinned my one on one CB - this I don't have a problem with because it's contextual and stat related. After all this was my third/fourth choice CB Ayala with lowish response and general stats against their prime striker. What I don't want the CPU doing is blatantly dribbling and running into trouble way down the field when there are passing options available.

To me anyway, it's night and day between the general gameplay and build up play of version 1.00 compared to the patches. I firmly believe CPU players are more aware of the human and are prepared to pass and hold onto possession better. Dribblers who have the ability to dribble CAN still dribble; think Tevez and Aguera and Silva for example. They'll be running at you all day even IRL. But I don't mind this. But dribbling and the CPU awareness of space and passing options has to be contextual, and this for me is where version 1.00 is regaining my love.

Possible downside - okay the keepers. Now I must be honest, in six games of playing there hasn't been a single occasion when I have thought the keepers were broken. They may not be as good as 1.03, but they will do for me if I can get the build up play of the CPU and general feel of the game right.

These are the highlights Radha (sorry for the baby in the background, needed to get the cane out), not that you can see much mind, but trust me the CPU were very good in possession.

YouTube - AEK Athens v Liverpool (3-1)

And here's the match details for this game -

Athens 3-1 Liverpool
Possession - 45-55
Shots (Target) - 7-5 (5-3)

Bear in mind, I play TP, zero assists, 15 min games, -1 game.
 
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CalcioCalabrese said:
That's the thing you notice a lot of when you play a master league or a MLO. Which players have certain strengths and in what areas. So you definitely need to know your players inside out to get the best out of your PES experience. FIFA on the other hand offers quite a generic experience, despite the shiny exterior.
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I'd disagree there, Ultimate Team is exactly what you have just described there.
 
ccshopland said:
Err, bit aggressive aren't you.
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Sorry about that lol. I'm always under the assumption that on this forum everyone has a sense of humor and a thick skin ;))


Do you think it was necessary to reformat your drive as you mentioned in a previous post? I recently went back to the retail, out of the box version of PES 2012 to check the 433 formation disaster and, although I didn't pay too much attention to the gameplay after confirming my continued disgust with the 433, I thought that little was different in possession rates and CPU build-up variation. However, my test was limited...
 
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radha1 said:
Sorry about that lol. I'm always under the assumption that on this forum everyone has a sense of humor and a thick skin ;))


Do you think it was necessary to reformat your drive as you mentioned in a previous post? I recently went back to the retail, out of the box version of PES 2012 to check the 433 formation disaster and, although I didn't pay too much attention to the gameplay after confirming my continued disgust with the 433, I thought that little was different in possession rates and CPU build-up variation. However, my test was limited...
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Well like I say, players don't seem to go forward into sprint mode all the time after they take their first touch for me, there seems to be more laying off, passing sideways, and generally looking to keep and shield the thing as opposed to dribble forward into no-man's land, albeit with their super human dribbling capabilities. I'm enjoying it at the moment have to say, and the shooting mechanic seems to be pretty much spot on.

But like everything PES, I'm going to wait to at least a quarter of the season before making any concrete assumptions.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
Fair enough Alan, I'm all for that. It is the most important fundamental basic of footballing technique. So the more it's elaborated on, the better.
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What I am hoping is that what we will see is more in they way of variety as to how players can control and take balls out of the air. Maybe what we are getting is something that allows for players to leap and chest the ball either basically or on the move and into space, or perhaps players blessed with superb technique can receive a lofted pass by sitting it up for themselves via a cushioned touch...or two. Obviously, if this was to be the case then the defensive side of the game would need to be able to offer a viable counter but maybe with more variety it means air balls will have more in the way of how they are contested.
 
ccshopland said:
Well like I say, players don't seem to go forward into sprint mode all the time after they take their first touch for me, there seems to be more laying off, passing sideways, and generally looking to keep and shield the thing as opposed to dribble forward into no-man's land, albeit with their super human dribbling capabilities. I'm enjoying it at the moment have to say, and the shooting mechanic seems to be pretty much spot on.

But like everything PES, I'm going to wait to at least a quarter of the season before making any concrete assumptions.
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Before i give a new try, would you mind addressing directly whether you thought that reformatting the drive somehow helped. Also, did you play with those radical formations that you posted earlier or was it all default formations and team styles? Thanks.
 
radha1 said:
Before i give a new try, would you mind addressing directly whether you thought that reformatting the drive somehow helped. Also, did you play with those radical formations that you posted earlier or was it all default formations and team styles? Thanks.
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I reformatted the drive to erase all patches/option files etc so that I had a perfect day one game. The formation I use is a generic 4-3-2-1 formation. Although I have tried 4-4-2 to for the early games. Both seemed to be compatible with stemming the CPU and making them play football, so I'm assuming it's more to do with the gameplay that the CPU plays a little more football rather than formations etc.
 
For future PES ML, I think a ML only stats would be useful. I hate to see certain players go to bitter rivals. I've seen Puyol in Madrid! Something hidden that increases over time for players that spend a long time in a team, maybe out of 8 or 10. Would that make sense? The higher the stat the harder it is to get that player away from that team, and it becomes even harder if the team trying to sign him is a rival.

Also, regens, like in FIFA. Based on location of team and not older players that have retired. While I loved old ML for it, old ML wasn't attempting to be realistic, this last iterations are trying to be more realistic, so the way new players come through should also be more realistic.
 
Flaw3d Genius said:
I'd disagree there, Ultimate Team is exactly what you have just described there.
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I was getting at the point that with FIFA, player stats or strengths aren't as noticeable as with PES. With PES you can have a low rated player who is still perfectly suited for doing the role you need him for in your team.

I haven't played a lot of Ultimate Team but I'm not sure that having differing levels of players through Gold, silver or bronze denominations is exactly synonomous with what I was trying to get at with my PES example. I can see it would be similar, but as I said above, I still think you can have weaker players in PES who are suitable for certain roles because the different stats actually mean more.
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
I was getting at the point that with FIFA, player stats or strengths aren't as noticeable as with PES. With PES you can have a low rated player who is still perfectly suited for doing the role you need him for in your team.

I haven't played a lot of Ultimate Team but I'm not sure that having differing levels of players through Gold, silver or bronze denominations is exactly synonomous with what I was trying to get at with my PES example. I can see it would be similar, but as I said above, I still think you can have weaker players in PES who are suitable for certain roles because the different stats actually mean more.
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Im not sure why but UT plays completely different to the other game modes and players individuality stands out a hell of alot more so much so that it really does give PES a run for it's money. Saying that im basing my UT experience on Fifa 11 which i played constantly...this year's UT i've not played it other than a few games here and there with my mates's teams.
 
Well I'm still going through a career mode so haven't played more than a few games of UT this year. I don't like how many games they expect you to play for the achievements though. You need to play FIFA for a whole year for a few hours every day lol.
 
Me!TheRaven said:
Yep Rob, that Pes 11 mlo experience, was worth it. I bagged nearly 800 online matches, and was so satisfied with my bunch of players that never went for Messi, Ronaldo, Eto`o, xavi and the likes. My best player (really) was Forlán. Great, great moments i had with that mlo. Pes 12 Mlo is ,for me, u-n-f-u-c-k-i-n-g enjoyable. 17 games it lasted for me, in wich i bagged 27 goals with Oscar Cardozo, without any decent service...lame...
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Same here, I never went for the superstars really, although towards the end I did have the likes of Giggs, Berbatov, Van der Sar, Mexes and Sneijder due to the accumulated funds I felt like wasting :P.

Fair enough, some (most) people just fleshed out their teams with the very best players in the game and had very few weaknesses in their side so could just play in a FIFA-esque way and not worry so much about players making mistakes.

For me though, the act of building a team whose skills complemented each other in a gameplan was what me spend so much time on it.

After each game or even after specific moments I'd ask myself stuff like "Why did I not dominate possession?", "Why did the opponents keep getting into dangerous areas", "Could I have stopped that goal?", "Why couldn't I break through the defence?" etc.

There's three answers:
1) An individual player (or two/three) are too lacking in key areas so need to be replaced.
2) The tactics were wrong.
3) The opponent was simply better or I had a bad game/bad luck. (Easily mistaken for 1 or 2, resulting in rash sweeping changes to the side that backfire :P)

This evaluation and making changes based on it that make significant, evident differences was probably the most fun I've had on a footy game to date.

Getting all nostalgic, and it's only been 12 months haha!
 
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