PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

I agree about Gerrard. I've never been a huge fan of his, although I acknowledge he is clearly a very talented player. My problem with him is that he lack he seems to lack the discipline to play a position. He's an all-action box-to-box kind of player, which works well in English football but I think you have to play more intelligently at international level. I can't think of many occasions when he's had a memorable performance for England.
 
I find it funny how I make a simple 1 sentence post in plain English and it still gets mis-interpreted!

I said he was brilliant for club, which he is. I also said he hasn't shown the same quality at international level, which is written in black and white, plain text, right in front of your eyes. If you can show me ANY International game where he has been ANYWHERE near as good as at club level, then show me. Maybe a couple here and there, but nowhere near as brilliant as for Barcelona.

How does THAT downplay how good he is?:FAIL:
 
Does nobody else think the CPU pressure is ridiculous on this? One of the things I loved about PES was being able to play a slow game where I can pick my passes. Now I'm constantly being harassed by the CPU sprinting over to tackle me immediately. Not covering my passing lanes, not jockeying me, but flying in for tackles.

It really put me off PES, it's like the old FIFA games in that sense.
 
I'm going to defend ol' Gerrard here (and on PES - see it's PES related lol).

People say he's over-rated, and is not a good a player of his generation as most people think. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. For me, Gerrard embodies everything I want out of an English player playing in the most physically demanding league in the world.

Gerrard's first goal for the club was when he dribbled past three players before scoring. He confirmed his big match player tag with a long range stunner against Southampton on New Year's Day January 2001. March 2001 a stunner v Man Utd, fantastic goal. PFA Young Player of the Year award 2001 and PFA Fans' Player of the Year award 2000-01 and 08-09. Scintillating performance in League Cup Final 2003. THAT goal against Olympiakos when all was lost which put them through the qualifying stages.

Then - Istanbul, three nil down at half time, with all the Liverpool players dejected. After it was unveiled that Gerrard gave them a right bollocking at half time, Gerrard came out and single handedly drove the team towards victory, scoring the first and dragging the belief of the Reds up off the floor. Suddenly ALL the Liverpool players became bigger than their counterparts to a man and the rest is history. 2005 Club Footballer of the Year - the second English man to have won it! PFA Player of the Year 05/06. FA Cup Final v West Ham anybody?!? A stunning equaliser, pulled right out of his arse, ultimate pressure at a key moment. FWA Player of the Year 08/09. 100 goals for the club v PSV. March 2009, a Gerrard virtuoso performance v Madrid, scoring 2 goals. Gerrard/Torres combination, some of the best inter-play anywhere anytime. Napoli? 1-0 down at half time, Gerrard comes on and scores a second half hat-trick as sub!??

I could go on....

For me, Gerrard has been one of the most influential players ever in the Premier League. Let's look at some other reasons why I rate him.

When you think of other great players in the Premier League era, Keane, Scholes, Giggs etc you envisage the class players they had around them. The Man Utd championship sides have had brilliance right through their core, you look at the Arsenal invincible's and the great sides down the years for the Gunners, when you think of Henry you look at his partners, Bergkamp, Viera, Petit, Overmars, Ljundberg and the excellent defences that accompany both teams. You think of Chelsea - you think of the unstoppable Drogba, surrounded by Lamprard, Robben, Duff, again solid defence. These are world class players surrounded by world class players.

Steven Gerrard, apart from the Torres/Alonso years where his true class showed, has been playing in a team of muppets since he started playing at the club. Players like Leonhardsen, Dundee, Heggem, Traore, Camara, Heskey, Biscan, Xavier, Berger, Smicer, Diouf, Ngog, Cheyrou, Le Tellec, Diao, Steve Finnan, Cisse, Josemi, Gonzalez, Zenden, Sissoko, Penant, Veronin, Benayoun, Babel, Dossena, Aqualani, Konchesky, Poulsen, Cole, Jovanovic, Shelvey, Spearing, Henderson.....

I mean all these wouldn't get into the Lamb and Flag 11 on a Saturday morning. Look at all the various combinations he's had to endure, it's just bonkers. Since his professional debut he has almost single handedly driven Liverpool year after year. On a physical and mental note, this has taken its toll on him. Add to this the expectation of the fans week in week out, and you get the picture.

So, in my mind, he's a superstar of his time.

Now the England issue. Let's be serious for a second, England haven't produced world class players on the international stage for years. Some players transcend their club form, think of Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer. BUT - hindsight is always so rose tinted, even these players had average years, with poor World Cup performances and Euro showings. There have been times through history where even the 'great' teams have been dumped out of major competitions, and it will always be the case.

Yes, I'm going there - Messi is undoubtedly the best in the world, the best ever may be. But you cannot deny his international form has been very poor by comparison. Does that make him exempt from being 'world class' all of a sudden? Also bear in mind that England haven't had a decent goal scoring striker since the Shearer/Sheringham axis and then Michael Owen. So to be a creative play maker with strikers and forwards who are not really of international calibre against the worlds best defenders, will obviously have an affect on his play and decision making.

The other issue I want to highlight is that the English league is just so, so unique, physically. Look at class players like David Silva and Aguero who have come out in recent weeks and said that they are absolutely shagged. The Premier League is the most physically demanding in terms of games and the 90 minutes on the pitch, week in, week out. Only now for example does a player like Silva understand that the Premier League is definitely a marathon and not a sprint. So is it any wonder that the England players are totally f'ked going into major tournaments when they are at it hammer and tong every week. There is a trade off I'm afraid, if England want to focus on team England then they need to rip up the blue-print for the Premier League - which will never happen because it's the most lucrative league in the world. So it's a stale-mate, and no doubt the players will be shagged again for the Euro's and be dumped out again at the group stages.

I think someone like Giggs is world class! But has he ever done it for Wales....no! So what does that mean? He's not world class? lol!?? Nobody foreign has bid for Giggs, does that mean that he wouldn't get into ANY side over the last 15 years in the world? Of course not, but the scouts and agents will only go for the kill on targets that can be moved from clubs, so the fact that say Giggs has never played for Barcelona, I mean is that an indication that he's not world class? And why are the Barcelona's, Madrid's, Milan's of this world THE yardstick for world class-ism? Sure now, at this moment, Barce and Madrid are streets ahead of the rest, but it wasn't so long ago that the English clubs dominated Europe....things go in cycles! Ultimately money will talk and the likes of Madrid, Barce, Man City will be the big boys unless they have cash problems down the line.

Also the great teams of yesteryear had a philosophy that they stuck to going into international games. By this I mean - when the Dutch players got together for international games they were already playing a technical passing system in their clubs. Nothing was foreign to them. Spanish players now, have the base of playing technical football from their clubs. The powerhouse Italian teams adopted the same style internationally (solid defence, big centre forward) into World Cup teams.

What you have in the England team is a group of people who have been running around like headless chickens in the Premier League making it the most exciting in the world, trying to come together and play some sort of tactical system that is foreign to them. The day the media and the public recognise that the England players, technically and systematically are nowhere near good enough to win major tournaments will be a day that the expectations of a nation get lowered to something more realistic. This is why Redknapp may be the man to just impinge and 'English type' fast paced game onto the opposition and not try and play their game. Be direct and decisive, much like his Spurs team. It's obvious England can't pass more than three times to each other because the players around the play-makers can't keep hold of the ball long enough in tight areas, so it's little wonder the likes of Gerrard and Lampard can't go looking for that creative element and have to pass sideways and backwards.

For me Gerrard embodies everything I expect from a British footballer and in spades, and that is why I think he is neither over-rated and why I think he is world class, in a team for over a decade that has been quite poor by comparison for both club and country.

(head down and back in the trenches :COAT:)
 
ccshopland said:
I could go on....
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Yeah, no one said he was crap. He does score important goals, he does regularly bust his bollocks to drive his team on and he does have the specific skills to do this. If he didn't, we wouldn't even be talking about him in the first place. The question isn't whether that's enough to be a top player in an upper-mid-table English club - of course it is - it's whether that's enough to be considered world class.


ccshopland said:
Steven Gerrard, apart from the Torres/Alonso years where his true class showed, has been playing in a team of muppets since he started playing at the club. Players like Leonhardsen, Dundee, Heggem, Traore, Camara, Heskey, Biscan, Xavier, Berger, Smicer, Diouf, Ngog, Cheyrou, Le Tellec, Diao, Steve Finnan, Cisse, Josemi, Gonzalez, Zenden, Sissoko, Penant, Veronin, Benayoun, Babel, Dossena, Aqualani, Konchesky, Poulsen, Cole, Jovanovic, Shelvey, Spearing, Henderson.....
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Christ alive, when you put it like that... I knew Liverpool's transfer policy had been pretty shocking over the last few years, but lining 'em up like that it makes your eyes bleed. I mean, to be fair, some of those players have been very good at some point (Zenden was a fine player in his younger days, Berger was OK and Aquilani and Benayoun have both had their moments) but yeah, that's a grim roll-call. And you missed out Carroll. And Downing. And Adam.

I'd say that Liverpool's disproportionate success in Europe a few years back had more to do with Benitez' knack of drilling a team for those kind of games, than Steven Gerrard's personal ability. We're also talking about the time when he had properly good players around him as well as all that flotsam. Now that he ONLY has crap players around him, and a manager who's basically a tactical dinosaur, he looks completely lost.



ccshopland said:
I think someone like Giggs is world class! But has he ever done it for Wales....no! So what does that mean? He's not world class? lol!?? Nobody foreign has bid for Giggs, does that mean that he wouldn't get into ANY side over the last 15 years in the world? Of course not, but the scouts and agents will only go for the kill on targets that can be moved from clubs, so the fact that say Giggs has never played for Barcelona, I mean is that an indication that he's not world class?
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Hang on, where do you get the idea no one foreign has bid for Giggs? It was common knowledge for years that every team in Italy (Juventus in particular) would have snapped Ferguson's hand off if there'd ever been the slightest suggestion of selling Giggs. Figures of 10 or 15 million were mentioned, I believe, back in the day when that was an absolutely absurd amount of money. He was more coveted in the 90s than Gareth Bale is now. There weren't any direct bids because everyone knew it was pointless, yes, but the interest was always there. The same isn't really true of Gerrard, it has to be said.

Not because he's a bad player, but because he doesn't have the specific skills required to succeed in other top European leagues. He can't follow tactical instructions, he's not very good at keeping the ball, etc etc. Real Madrid and Barcelona looked at that 3-man Liverpool midfield and went for Alonso and Mascherano. Who went for Gerrard? Just Chelsea (he would have been happy to go, and very nearly did, so the idea he couldn't be moved on from Liverpool is not strictly true). This tells you all you need to know about Gerrard's suitability for the English league as opposed to the Spanish or Italian leagues (as well as how absurdly overpriced English players are).


ccshopland said:
What you have in the England team is a group of people who have been running around like headless chickens in the Premier League making it the most exciting in the world, trying to come together and play some sort of tactical system that is foreign to them. The day the media and the public recognise that the England players, technically and systematically are nowhere near good enough to win major tournaments will be a day that the expectations of a nation get lowered to something more realistic. This is why Redknapp may be the man to just impinge and 'English type' fast paced game onto the opposition and not try and play their game. Be direct and decisive, much like his Spurs team. It's obvious England can't pass more than three times to each other because the players around the play-makers can't keep hold of the ball long enough in tight areas, so it's little wonder the likes of Gerrard and Lampard can't go looking for that creative element and have to pass sideways and backwards.
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Agree with almost all of this, although I'm not convinced you can pick out Gerrard and Lampard as the creative element - they're not really, they've both played best in teams where they're surrounded by foreign players who'd do a lot of the creative work for them. I also doubt the Redknapp style would work for England in the long term because again, he just wouldn't have the players. Spurs without Bale, Van der Vaart and Modric would be a pretty average team... they'd just be kind of fast. Headless chickens, like you say.



ccshopland said:
For me Gerrard embodies everything I expect from a British footballer and in spades, and that is why I think he is neither over-rated and why I think he is world class, in a team for over a decade that has been quite poor by comparison for both club and country.
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I think he's become part of the problem for Liverpool, to be honest, more than he's part of the solution. He's pretty much undroppable, and let's face it, even without his personal significance to the club, few managers would drop a player who can score a matchwinning goal out of nowhere. But for as long as he's there, you've got little hope of developing a well-rounded, tactically-astute team because Gerrard can't be a part of a team like that unless he's given a specific, limited role (which plays to his strengths and conceals his weaknesses) and sticks to it. That's not how he rolls these days. As he gets older and his powers decrease, he feels more and more that he has to be the heart of the team, making lung-busting runs into nowhere, taking it upon himself to shoot all the time, always going for the Hollywood ball, etc. His occasional moments of magic cover up his often destabilising effect on a team. For me, that destabilising effect is why he's not world class, and most pundits' failure to notice that is why he's overrated.
 
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Played Demo 2 last night after having a loan of my mates Fifa 12 for a week which i've been enjoying with Placebo's sliders....Demo 2 smashes it...i was pretty gobsmacked how much better it was. The shooting is fantastic not a single WTF moment in 4 games. How Konami got the final game so wrong i'l never know.
 
Lovely stuff Pere. Completely agree about Gerrard. I used to think he was the nuts when I was younger, as that classic British engine in midfield. But his decision making is atrocious and so self-centred that any thoughts I once had about his ability to waltz into any top team now seem very naïve in retrospect. He would have approached playing in any team with exactly the same mentality, almost oblivious of context or instruction. It would have been interesting to see how he'd have developed differently at another club, with better players and less reverent fans - would he have become a more effective team player if he felt he could trust those around him and with fans who would get on his case, or is it hard-wired into him to be his own man for better or worse?

I remember reading an interesting article in The Blizzard entitled 'Roy Of The Rovers Ruined The English Game', which bemoaned how that mentality of being outplayed for 89 minutes before then thumping in a spectacular winner is to blame for us never really thinking about how to control those 89 minutes in the first place. There's also an anti-intellectualism to English football stretching right back to the 19th century that has never really been shaken off for various reasons, which the Roy Of The Rovers mentality suited very well. While Bielsa is a footballing Monk or House (Monkhouse?), his system destroying the team due to break the EPL's points record, England's next manager is likely to be the man who told Pavlyuchenko to 'fucking run about a bit'.



...Football titles have never really got this right.
 
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Long time lurker but had to join to say excellent analysis from Pere Ubu and Romangnoli 'The Blizzard' is pretty good isn't it. Well better than talksport or the MOTD cretins.

BTW what does Jimmy G-Force think to Ubu's analysis - isn't he the Ray Houghton of evo-web - all "I know the game cause I played it" bluster? Joking!
 
Again, sorry for off topic, but how do you England supporters feel about the amount of foreigners in your top flight? Do you think that has taken away from developing younglings or has it been more helpful as new ideas from overseas come over?

I ask because I come from a small country, but the team I support is the second biggest there and if we ever had a team that didn't have players that aren't from the youth system and/or Honduran, there would be a big problem for the owners.

I guess it comes down to the fact that the English care more about their club than their national team, and the community aspect of the game (ie Londoners playing for Tottenhan, Arsenal or Chelsea, who grew up at the ground supporting the club) has been lost. But in all honesty, I am not sure. Hence, the question.
 
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GUYS IM BACK AGAIN THE DILEMMA MAN, NA IT'S ALRIGHT SHE'L BE RIGHT MATE

GOTDA SAY IM ENJOYING PES 2012 SO MUCH, EVEN MORE THAN PES 2009, BOTH SERIES HAVE VERY SIMILUR GAMEPLAY

I RECOMMEND A GOOD CPU THOUGH LIKE AN AT LEAST CORE i5
 
Pere Ubu said:
Yeah, no one said he was crap. He does score important goals, he does regularly bust his bollocks to drive his team on and he does have the specific skills to do this. If he didn't, we wouldn't even be talking about him in the first place. The question isn't whether that's enough to be a top player in an upper-mid-table English club - of course it is - it's whether that's enough to be considered world class.




Christ alive, when you put it like that... I knew Liverpool's transfer policy had been pretty shocking over the last few years, but lining 'em up like that it makes your eyes bleed. I mean, to be fair, some of those players have been very good at some point (Zenden was a fine player in his younger days, Berger was OK and Aquilani and Benayoun have both had their moments) but yeah, that's a grim roll-call. And you missed out Carroll. And Downing. And Adam.

I'd say that Liverpool's disproportionate success in Europe a few years back had more to do with Benitez' knack of drilling a team for those kind of games, than Steven Gerrard's personal ability. We're also talking about the time when he had properly good players around him as well as all that flotsam. Now that he ONLY has crap players around him, and a manager who's basically a tactical dinosaur, he looks completely lost.





Hang on, where do you get the idea no one foreign has bid for Giggs? It was common knowledge for years that every team in Italy (Juventus in particular) would have snapped Ferguson's hand off if there'd ever been the slightest suggestion of selling Giggs. Figures of 10 or 15 million were mentioned, I believe, back in the day when that was an absolutely absurd amount of money. He was more coveted in the 90s than Gareth Bale is now. There weren't any direct bids because everyone knew it was pointless, yes, but the interest was always there. The same isn't really true of Gerrard, it has to be said.

Not because he's a bad player, but because he doesn't have the specific skills required to succeed in other top European leagues. He can't follow tactical instructions, he's not very good at keeping the ball, etc etc. Real Madrid and Barcelona looked at that 3-man Liverpool midfield and went for Alonso and Mascherano. Who went for Gerrard? Just Chelsea (he would have been happy to go, and very nearly did, so the idea he couldn't be moved on from Liverpool is not strictly true). This tells you all you need to know about Gerrard's suitability for the English league as opposed to the Spanish or Italian leagues (as well as how absurdly overpriced English players are).




Agree with almost all of this, although I'm not convinced you can pick out Gerrard and Lampard as the creative element - they're not really, they've both played best in teams where they're surrounded by foreign players who'd do a lot of the creative work for them. I also doubt the Redknapp style would work for England in the long term because again, he just wouldn't have the players. Spurs without Bale, Van der Vaart and Modric would be a pretty average team... they'd just be kind of fast. Headless chickens, like you say.





I think he's become part of the problem for Liverpool, to be honest, more than he's part of the solution. He's pretty much undroppable, and let's face it, even without his personal significance to the club, few managers would drop a player who can score a matchwinning goal out of nowhere. But for as long as he's there, you've got little hope of developing a well-rounded, tactically-astute team because Gerrard can't be a part of a team like that unless he's given a specific, limited role (which plays to his strengths and conceals his weaknesses) and sticks to it. That's not how he rolls these days. As he gets older and his powers decrease, he feels more and more that he has to be the heart of the team, making lung-busting runs into nowhere, taking it upon himself to shoot all the time, always going for the Hollywood ball, etc. His occasional moments of magic cover up his often destabilising effect on a team. For me, that destabilising effect is why he's not world class, and most pundits' failure to notice that is why he's overrated.
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Load of nonsense:YAWN:
 
Ok I think we've gone way off-topic now. If yous still feel the need to continue then please use the football discussion forum.

Thanks for all the good discussions and let's get back on topic.
 
DagsJT said:
Does nobody else think the CPU pressure is ridiculous on this? One of the things I loved about PES was being able to play a slow game where I can pick my passes. Now I'm constantly being harassed by the CPU sprinting over to tackle me immediately. Not covering my passing lanes, not jockeying me, but flying in for tackles.

It really put me off PES, it's like the old FIFA games in that sense.
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Couldn't disagree more, it's gone too far the other way. The CPU will happily back off and camp in their box, letting you do what you want to up until you're 18 yards away from goal.

Far too easy to saunter up the pitch unopposed. Midfield battles are non-existent.
 
I think both games this year have that problem - if you rarely sprint and just play the simple passes then you can far too easily dominate possession even against much stronger sides...

Not many football games can find a decent balance between feeling harassed into playing "hot potato" rushed football all the time and being able to slowly build up play carefully. PES5 and PES 2011 are the best in that regard IMO, although 2011's sprint pressuring was a bit too easy which showed online.
 
Although the rush you on the ball tactics should only be applied by those teams that actually play that style. One famous team comes to mind...

Some teams play zone defence until you hit the 18 yard box, some play high up the park but don't come at you full on, while others double and triple team you. It's about solid research and applying the correct tactics for each team and making sure the AI follows those tactics.

There is no 1 default way the AI should play.
 
rob brother pes 2012 has come a long way well since pes 2009 in my opinion, i don't know if you can remember the gameplay od pes 2009, i have a strong opinion that the gameplay of pes 2012 is very similar in gameplay wise, pes 2011 was a complete failure it just wasn't pes, i can assure you that konami have really brought the gameplay back from retro perspective. for the first time this year im not actually looking forward to pes 2013, because all that i have wanted since pes 2009 is back with pes 2012, im really enjoying the game especially after a new pc, the game really has taken over my emotions
 
I agree in part on the tactical element having to be looked at to get more variety across the board. Pressure is a key element through the levels but to get this right requires some deep programming I believe. It's more to do with pressure intensely in certain situations and not pressuring at all in others.

I really do think the wider issue which encompasses this point is the lack of a real-time stamina system which should be hand in glove with teams' pressing tactics and more importantly the imbalance between attack and defence, both for you and the CPU.

I have played PES extensively this last week, and by extensively I mean a truly ridiculous amount of games more than normal. I've done the whole spectrum; PS3, PC, then modded PC, then Chimps option file with PS3, etc etc. I've tried the levels from professional to superstar and have played from 15-25 minute matches, with one bar to zero assist, in trying to figure out what makes the game tick.

Don't get me wrong - I have caned the game this year and it has kept me immersed, at times it is simply a brilliant game.

But there's just lots of weird stuff in there. First off the scripting is just insane, near enough on all levels. Professional is the most balanced, but even on this in ML there are games that are just meant to be x and y. I had a 6-6 draw v QPR two days ago. But the key thing that stands out time and time again for me is just the way that the game is on two different footings for me and the CPU. This kills the enjoyment particularly against fast speed merchant teams; the game descends into true chaos then.

Take Superstar, zero assists, 25 minutes yesterday. The game was like a true sim, from me. Lots of passes backwards and sideways from me, with a real intensity in every pass. It was against Villa by the way. But for every hard earned yard from me, the CPU could just attack in a totally different way, with everyone dribbling, unaware of my players, unaware of passing lanes/pressure areas, just not like a human with no fear of dis-possession. It made the game rather silly. I won the game 2-1, but they had 21 shots on goal to my 12 and was lucky to survive the game. The crux of my argument - well that the CPU build up play gives a damn hard game, but realistic, well hardly.

Teams like Villa trouble me, and teams like Man City. Anyone with speed in the game automatically becomes a super dribbler. And when you then balance this out against a CPU tactic that has 4 speed strikers for Villa, it's just a nightmare.

So for me the core issues that need addressing are -

1) Game balance - both the CPU and human have to be singing off the same hymn sheet. If the human has to build up with caution and concentration then it should feel like the CPU has to do it too

2) Real life pressure - I don't mean hunt my players down, or retreat into their own box, it's again about balance. When I have the ball in defence the CPU strikers (and midfield unit behind them) should be intelligently cutting off space making it difficult to just work my way up the pitch, not in a cyborg like capacity, but just making me think twice about this and that. IRL most teams' set up defensively from the front gives the other teams defensive 50/50 options. If you pass it from there to here fine, but if this player mis-controls it there'll be immense pressure. In fact most teams even welcome the opposition playing the ball from defence to midfield because to lose possession there would almost mean disaster. This should not impinge on 'levels of difficulty', I honestly believe the levels of difficulty should all be to do with how the CPU play and keep the ball better rather than adding more cheat scripts and pressure.

3) And I really believe that if you get these two things right the tactics thing should be a by-product where you can actually play any tactic you want. The counter attack from the CPU for example is just anarchy. Tie in some sort of stamina system where you really have to decide when you press, for how long, and in what parts of the game and you'll near enough have a fantastic representation of the game.

PES still has the soul factor, something that no matter how many impact engines EA throw at FIFA, they'll never capture. So with this bottle of magic as a starting point in each and every series it really is about ironing out and improving.

Like a say, hardness shouldn't be about cheat scripts/super AI dribbling and incessant pressure in wrong areas, more to do with the CPU keeping possession longer and really punishing the human player for tactical discrepancies (in a slower more methodical manner). The centre midfield zone at the moment is just a total waste of time.

I think I've taken the game as far as I have. I have learnt a great deal this year and must say the learning curve for this title has been right up there with anything I have played. I still have nightmares about demo 1 (or 2) and Napoli. It took me twenty games (yes 20) to beat them. It borderlines a great game when the CPU decides to pass the ball a bit, but there's just too much going wrong in general for it to be considered as such.

So, I'm looking forward to 2013 now, I'm not holding my breath, and will just let things flow. After the debacle of the last few years' demos to retail I'm fully aware that KONAMI have the undisputed ability to fk up a piss up at a brewery. Hopefully the summer sun and cricket season can take my mind off the wait, but I think it's time I played my Uncharted from Xmas!!
 
dannyfc2 said:
Again, I think it's the lack of technical depth being represented.

Every team harries, the only reason the top teams have so much time on the ball is because their touch is sublime. If you had bobbles and touches shooting off shins it'd be a lot harder to retain possession, without resorting to amping up the CPU pressure. That is where you'd get difference in styles, if you're a low-skilled team where every pass carries a risk, you'd be lot less inclined to play it about effortlessly. As is the case now. Ruskin shouldn't be able to receive the ball flat out sprinting, with an inch perfect flick of the heel.

Both games ignore the unglamorous intricacies that make football what it is. Which is understandable as the core audience doesn't want that, they want 30 yard strikes and rainbow flicks.
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Exactly. The reason why teams pass the ball backwards and across isn't necessarily that the pass is difficult, is that the receiver may very well lose possession. This then brings into the football game of using the long ball, which just isn't used enough in football games, basically because you don't have to. I'll bet 99% of people that play footy games play them in a universally generic way of pass, pass and pass. What the next footy games need, is a much more tactical, much more realistic and much more lifelike approach to build up play. Strength can be best used with hold up play etc, make aerial players a real handful. If you have speed then you shouldn't just be able to dribble like Messi, first touch, control stats etc should all be taken into consideration. How the games are online are the EXACT opposite of what I want and need in a modern football game.

But I fear it's too much of a risk to make these games truly sim like.
 
ccshopland said:
Exactly. The reason why teams pass the ball backwards and across isn't necessarily that the pass is difficult, is that the receiver may very well lose possession. This then brings into the football game of using the long ball, which just isn't used enough in football games, basically because you don't have to. I'll bet 99% of people that play footy games play them in a universally generic way of pass, pass and pass. What the next footy games need, is a much more tactical, much more realistic and much more lifelike approach to build up play. Strength can be best used with hold up play etc, make aerial players a real handful. If you have speed then you shouldn't just be able to dribble like Messi, first touch, control stats etc should all be taken into consideration. How the games are online are the EXACT opposite of what I want and need in a modern football game.

But I fear it's too much of a risk to make these games truly sim like.
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That's exactly it. It's not that possession football shouldn't be admired, but that the risk/reward balance isn't well represented. If passing football is easy to emulate, the sense of achievement when you link up a flowing move is undervalued.

The nitty, gritty adds that value. It means when you manage to pull off a spectacular move you truly appreciate it for what it is, and feel that its well earned.

The game needs more depth, variation and strategy. If you're up against a superior side, it should be advantegous to play it over the top and hit them direct. It should force you to utilise your stonger/quicker players to compensate for lack of technical ability. Equally, this should mean such players regularly miss-control, are less positionally aware, less accurate.

I'm an advocate of introducing variation in touches (someone brought this up a couple years ago on here and its stuck with me). Using Walcott, maybe the first and second touch are enough to burst past, but then maybe the third is too far ahead and the momentum is lost, for instance.

I don't think adding such variables is that big an ask, especially when compared to the scope of other games this gen. It's just whether or not, like you said, it ultimately pays-off in sales. While it may not be a feature you can champion on the back of a box, I do believe it is something that the casual will appreciate (because of the risk/reward), even without fully knowing.


It's a pipe-dream. The only way I can see it happening is if a developer connected to the grass-roots scene (as per Sports Interactive and FM) entered the market. Clearly there is an audience out there for a sim, its just making it aware that not everyone is content with the in-your-face brashness of FIFA.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
True, to an extent. These simple 5 yard passes to retain possession though don't give you an automatic end product. In fact, far from it. These simple passes along the deck to retain possession give the CPU Ai plenty of time to get men behind the ball. It's the clever final pass that is hard to achieve in both real-life and this PES. Possession means very little if you don't do anything with it. Once you start to attempt to pick that lock, that's when possession will more often than not, turn over.

The final pass in PES 2011, in hindsight, was far too easy to achieve. In my opinion.
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I wish that this were true for the CPU on offense and for the human on defense. Wouldn't it be great if the CPU offered simple passes along the deck to retain possession so that I could play positional, strategic defense while it looked for the clever final pass that is hard to achieve? Instead of the human spending 63% of the game working hard to pick that lock and the CPU just driving through like a hurricane?
 
radha1 said:
I wish that this were true for the CPU on offense and for the human on defense. Wouldn't it be great if the CPU offered simple passes along the deck to retain possession so that I could play positional, strategic defense while it looked for the clever final pass that is hard to achieve? Instead of the human spending 63% of the game working hard to pick that lock and the CPU just driving through like a hurricane?
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Yes it would.
 
Primepeace said:
rob brother pes 2012 has come a long way well since pes 2009 in my opinion, i don't know if you can remember the gameplay od pes 2009, i have a strong opinion that the gameplay of pes 2012 is very similar in gameplay wise, pes 2011 was a complete failure it just wasn't pes, i can assure you that konami have really brought the gameplay back from retro perspective. for the first time this year im not actually looking forward to pes 2013, because all that i have wanted since pes 2009 is back with pes 2012, im really enjoying the game especially after a new pc, the game really has taken over my emotions
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me and my mates enjoyed pes09 online, it was fun in 2v2
last game online that was enjoyable a whole year in online mode

012 not even bought it, second demo was OK to play
full is shit(before u ask, yes yes yes, im not stupid to buy pes full just to try the full, since pes08 im not that dumb, and u shud too :) )
 
Actually, there are nowadays quite a lot of teams in which every player has no problems getting the ball under control and receiving even hard passes with ease. It was different just a few years (5-15) back, in former times only the offensive players had a good first-touch, but this sort of technical ability sort of expanded to the midfield-players and eventually to the defenders as well.

Of course the development of the offensive players didn't just stop either, they have improved as well and developed abilities that the other players in the team don't have (yet!), for example to control the ball at high speed (with Messi being the best right now in that aspect) but especially in reading the game (vision and forethinking) and making that brilliant last pass that opens up the defense.

But the intelligence of pressuring developed as well to the next level, teams operate more organic and organized to disrupt long pass-combinations, they pressure intelligently where needed, block lanes go with two on one sometimes... and always try to think where the next pass might go and disturb it, or allow it in order to create a trap... to create a dead-end... all of this they do in order to pressure the opponent's mind into making a mistake, a wrong decision.

The less time the opponent has the more probable a mistake or a wrong decision will be made. Ideally a team would pressurize constantly but in reality that's not possible cause humans can't do that for 90 minutes and still have enough energy to create goals themselves, stamina, fatigue, fitness, mind-fitness has to be taken into account and therefore pressuring has to be done in an intelligent way to achieve a much as possible with as little as possible in effort.

Unfortunately all of that and more is not represented in PES nor in Fifa right now and I guess it won't be until next-gen.
 
A couple of snippets from Adam today:

Individuality means so much more these days than just the player feel or how they perform an action. It's how they do such a thing, too. It's almost like Konami 'get' individuality again, thanks to so much focused and also vague feedback.

They've even included a key element into the game, that is not only a gamechanger of sorts, but something that is fundamental to football in real life.

Let's see who answers this correctly: what is the most important aspect of being an excellent footballer?
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Bingo!

First touch.

The most important aspect in football. It starts the beginning of any move. To pass, to shoot etc, it stems from the player bring the ball under control.

Currently in PES, players know over the years R2 has been the button that dictates first touch. It's been marginalised over the years, and makes a MASSIVE comeback this year. Not only stat based, but a key element in PES 2013.

More on this when the game is announced.
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The talk of the R2 button and first touch sounds brilliant.

This should get Jimmy moist at least. :))
 
Jamezinho said:
A couple of snippets from Adam today:





The talk of the R2 button and first touch sounds brilliant.

This should get Jimmy moist at least. :))
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It's the usual yearly hypetrain. This year it's individuality that Konami got right? Last year I remember it was also supposed to be individuality... and AI... and animations... and goalkeepers:))

I'm open to PES 2013 but I also know that so much is wrong with PES 2012, that it would require a miracle to get it right.

And I know not to trust the hype until I get to play the full game for a few weeks. Burned once too often.
 
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