PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Jimmy G-Force said:
Anything but.

This game provides both options, Sim and Arcade, and probably a mixture of both with the settings Jamez utilises.

Zero Assistance on Professional has always been the most simulated and balanced option. For all the many reasons I have written here since release. PES has never been anywhere near as simulated as what this provides, not even close.

4-Bar Passing Assistance with all other Assists On, and 0 to +2 Speed is the Arcade option.

2-Bar Assistance with all other Assists OFF, is your 'Sim-Cade'.

Play which ever way your preference suits.

The only problem with this system is Online, it needs Filters like Fifa. Although, even Fifa didn't have them from the get-go as I remember from Fifa 09. Konami should have learnt from this.
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i play on professional and zero assistance and i can tell you pes 2012 has almost no simulation approach
this is above all because of the highly scripted and cheating AI, but also because 0 assistance is still too assisted. The real "0 assistance" setting is passing with L2
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
Anything but.

This game provides both options, Sim and Arcade, and probably a mixture of both with the settings Jamez utilises.

Zero Assistance on Professional has always been the most simulated and balanced option. For all the many reasons I have written here since release. PES has never been anywhere near as simulated as what this provides, not even close.
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Which part of simulation and balance includes my having 60-65% possession?
 
It is a problem, a big one that I hope is addressed in 2013. I've settled on professional, zero assists, 20 minute games, like many of you, but I just played Braga (possession game) in a Europa League game and had 68% possession.

But....saying that, and I'm a massive 'possession bug bear' guy, the game has become much more enjoyable on the console lately.
 
Ameppe said:
i play on professional and zero assistance and i can tell you pes 2012 has almost no simulation approach
this is above all because of the highly scripted and cheating AI, but also because 0 assistance is still too assisted. The real "0 assistance" setting is passing with L2
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No Simulation ? The very fact you are required to take a touch before moving the ball on to be the most successful in all area's is adhering to Rule Number 1 of football. In any other version, 'Ping-Pong' football, without the need to take a touch was standard proceedure. That alone changes everything, never mind the body-balance, posture, correct foot etc etc bleeding over.

As for the high possession stats, sure the A.I should not look to be so direct, but if your own game is based around possession, then don't be suprised for those stats to fall in your favour. Only one team can't have the dominance in that regard. Also, the fact you cannot, pass, pass, pass through-ball, shoot-score anymore, against these tight defences, ensures you have to retain possession to break team down.

Regardless of the lesser CPU possession statistics, it doesn't mean the simulated approach to basic footballing techniques have been compromised. They haven't. If you believe they have, tell me why and how.

I'll check that Calcio, I had a look the other day but the stream kept breaking up on the work PC and also I had no sound. I will check at home.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
No Simulation ? The very fact you are required to take a touch before moving the ball on to be the most successful in all area's is adhering to Rule Number 1 of football. In any other version, 'Ping-Pong' football, without the need to take a touch was standard proceedure. That alone changes everything, never mind the body-balance, posture, correct foot etc etc bleeding over.

As for the high possession stats, sure the A.I should not look to be so direct, but if your own game is based around possession, then don't be suprised for those stats to fall in your favour. Only one team can't have the dominance in that regard. Also, the fact you cannot, pass, pass, pass through-ball, shoot-score anymore, against these tight defences, ensures you have to retain possession to break team down.

Regardless of the lesser CPU possession statistics, it doesn't mean the simulated approach to basic footballing techniques have been compromised. They haven't. If you believe they have, tell me why and how.

I'll check that Calcio, I had a look the other day but the stream kept breaking up on the work PC and also I had no sound. I will check at home.
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It would appear here that you are at least willing to concede the 'balance' point in your previous post. Disproportionate possession rates deny any notion of balance in PES 2012. I know that possession rates are just numbers, but for good gaming experience, they are important numbers.

With respect to 'simulation' you hit the nail on the head in many ways. All of us (I think) are on this forum because, in your hearts, we just love the PES franchise. I suspect for most of us it's because it most closely simulates the delicacies of football, as you said, including first-touch, posture, etc....all those things the PES 2012 does so wonderfully.

So yes, 'footballing techniques' have not been compromised; in fact, they are better than in any other iteration. But for me, footballing experience has been compromised. Placing the blame for disproportionate possession rates on the human player ignores the manner in which the CPU plays football.

For example, why is this statement not true for the CPU offense?--

"Also, the fact you cannot, pass, pass, pass through-ball, shoot-score anymore, against these tight defences, ensures you have to retain possession to break team down."

Of course, for PES 2012 I would just change that slightly to 'pass, pass, pass, cross'.

The reason it's not true is that PES 2012 is an incredibly sublime, wonderfully technical and precise game that lacks just a smidge of good gameplay experience. In a nutshell, I don't want to play offense for 65% of a 20 minute game. I never had to do it in any other iteration (that I can think of).
 
Jamezinho said:
I see Adam is massively stoking the hype train's fire over on his forums. :))
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i want evo web to be the safe place to go to talk about pes, not a forum where if you say something wrong with the game you are called an hater.
 
Ameppe said:
i want evo web to be the safe place to go to talk about pes, not a forum where if you say something wrong with the game you are called an hater.
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Then you have found Utopia Ameppe. WENB is like kindergarden....this is where the grown ups talk PES! ;))
 
ccshopland said:
Then you have found Utopia Ameppe. WENB is like kindergarden....this is where the grown ups talk PES! ;))
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Nice. A condescending comment towards another community shows a higher level of maturity. I mean of course it does.

As does going onto other forums, and coming here and making 'clever' remarks.

And Ameppe, we know your alias on WENB, you post there regular enough. If you don't want to post anymore let us know ;)
 
curdstar said:
Nice. A condescending comment towards another community shows a higher level of maturity. I mean of course it does.

As does going onto other forums, and coming here and making 'clever' remarks.

And Ameppe, we know your alias on WENB, you post there regular enough. If you don't want to post anymore let us know ;)
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Err, I don't bother with WENB at all now Alan, thought you knew that!?! And are you stalking me or something day and night on here ready to pounce on my posts lol?

Shall we do each other a favour Al, and just avoid each other.

Thanks.
 
ccshopland said:
Err, I don't bother with WENB at all now Alan, thought you knew that!?! And are you stalking me or something day and night on here ready to pounce on my posts lol?

Shall we do each other a favour Al, and just avoid each other.

Thanks.
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I was talking about the forum as whole, which was rather obvious.

Then again, you and your selective reading hey!
 
Jamezinho said:
I see Adam is massively stoking the hype train's fire over on his forums. :))
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Trust me, I'M GOING TO GET ON A PLANE AND BULLY SEABASS. HE NEEDS THIS DEMO OUT AS EARLY AS F*CKING POSSIBLE.
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Adam should know by now that the demo's play nothing like the final game. God knows why he's going on about early demo's, sure they will be good but aint they all? Lets focus on the final game not the demo's that are always good. :Y1

edit: unless they are bringing out the full game of the demo build.
 
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Flaw3d Genius said:
Adam should know by now that the demo's play nothing like the final game. God knows why he's going on about early demo's, sure they will be good but aint they all? Lets focus on the final game not the demo's that are always good. :Y1

edit: unless they are bringing out the full game of the demo build.
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Perhaps if Konami released an early demo or closed beta then the final game would be what we want?

Konami should release another beta version but this time do it much earlier. The MLO beta for PES2011 was a great idea but they released it too late, and more importantly, it was only a test for the MLO mode, not gameplay.

Get something out sooner so that they have time to collect and respond to feedback.
 
Flaw3d Genius said:
Adam should know by now that the demo's play nothing like the final game. God knows why he's going on about early demo's, sure they will be good but aint they all? Lets focus on the final game not the demo's that are always good. :Y1

edit: unless they are bringing out the full game of the demo build.
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I've seen some of the mandates Adam has passed over, and 'early demo' is right up there, pretty much in everything he has sent across.

The idea is, with the game running further down the line than before (same engine etc), it will be stable earlier. Then the initial demo is only iterated on through feedback.

Great idea, but I do worry about the sort of avenues they'll go for feedback. Community will be the focus, but some of those posts on Facebook from FIFA solutionists....

Trigger runs :CONFUSE:
 
curdstar said:
I've seen some of the mandates Adam has passed over, and 'early demo' is right up there, pretty much in everything he has sent across.

The idea is, with the game running further down the line than before (same engine etc), it will be stable earlier. Then the initial demo is only iterated on through feedback.

Great idea, but I do worry about the sort of avenues they'll go for feedback. Community will be the focus, but some of those posts on Facebook from FIFA solutionists....

Trigger runs :CONFUSE:
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Trigger runs are already in and to be fair they help PES's poor AI (Dont get me wrong it's much better than Fifa's but that's not something worth shouting about) and lets face it Konami did a good job as i prefer Konami's way of trigger runs to EA's.

This year for me Demo's are going to be pointless as people have already being took for a ride with PES 2011 & 2 PES 2012 demo's, from reading forums no one is going to trust a demo when they think the final game will be different. Now give us a demo of the final build and lets see how good it is.
 
curdstar said:
I've seen some of the mandates Adam has passed over, and 'early demo' is right up there, pretty much in everything he has sent across.

The idea is, with the game running further down the line than before (same engine etc), it will be stable earlier. Then the initial demo is only iterated on through feedback.

Great idea, but I do worry about the sort of avenues they'll go for feedback. Community will be the focus, but some of those posts on Facebook from FIFA solutionists....

Trigger runs :CONFUSE:
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I agree Alan. Could Konami release a fairly limited closed beta to a select (lucky) few from each PES community? Keep it away from the great unwashed so they can benefit from some more intelligent feedback?

By the way, I hate trigger runs. It's just a 'get out of jail' for bad AI.
 
Jamezinho said:
I agree Alan. Could Konami release a fairly limited closed beta to a select (lucky) few from each PES community? Keep it away from the great unwashed so they can benefit from some more intelligent feedback?

By the way, I hate trigger runs. It's just a 'get out of jail' for bad AI.
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That's the plan. But I do think if we get our way with one thing, they might see the opportunity for a bigger volume of feedback.

I'm not sure, we're working on it.
 
A get out of jail for bad AI? Hardly. At least on PES players run somewhere. You don't have to make a forward run to be counted as a run. A lot of football's off the ball movement is not forwards but into space, which is where PES, in my opinion, is a lot more active than FIFA.

Funny that some of you guys slate the AI for wanting to go forward all the time but then you imply that the AI on your own team should always be making runs?

Watch a football game and especially when your own team plays and tell me how many times you scream at a player to be moving into space or forward or whatever....yep - there's a lot of those moments. But on Pro Evo, unlike when watching your own real team, you can use a button to initiate a run. In real life, a player would do this by shouting at his teammate or gesturing to move somewhere. That's because players are not always running forward in real games.

I much prefer the AI now than last year when there were 20 offside calls per match because players kept running blindly forward...
 
I don't like trigger runs full stop. I'd rather my team-mates movement is decided by their intelligence, vision and positional sense than me pressing a button to send them on a run. It should be another layer of individuality.

Perhaps we are a long way off that though.
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
A get out of jail for bad AI? Hardly. At least on PES players run somewhere. You don't have to make a forward run to be counted as a run. A lot of football's off the ball movement is not forwards but into space, which is where PES, in my opinion, is a lot more active than FIFA.

Funny that some of you guys slate the AI for wanting to go forward all the time but then you imply that the AI on your own team should always be making runs?

Watch a football game and especially when your own team plays and tell me how many times you scream at a player to be moving into space or forward or whatever....yep - there's a lot of those moments. But on Pro Evo, unlike when watching your own real team, you can use a button to initiate a run. In real life, a player would do this by shouting at his teammate or gesturing to move somewhere. That's because players are not always running forward in real games.

I much prefer the AI now than last year when there were 20 offside calls per match because players kept running blindly forward...
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This is where KONAMI have to be careful with Active AI. I love the 'life' PES has this year with player movements, but it becomes a fine line if there is also too much player movement especially ahead of the ball, as this then triggers the attack followed by counter attack mechanism.

The midfield HAS to be an issue once more! The CPU teams I kind of struggle with this year are the ones that sometimes have 3/4 in attack, leaving a barren midfield. And since the CPU look to not play a possessive game the game descends into anarchy. It's kind of like this online to where I feel where noobs pick 4 or 5 forwards for Real etc. There should be a massive counter balance or punishment to this.

Playing more of the console version this week I honestly don't think that KONAMI are that far away in terms of game structure. Where there have to be massive improvements are these -

1) Defensive lines - these need to blatantly shown as extreme in the game. A defensive line of 20 should literally have your defence not move from the halfway line and entire team quashed into the opponents half, and likewise 1 should see the team retreat camped inside their own area. Combined with this is pressing - a properly implemented stamina system for both human and CPU (no cheat boosts) will make this game a joy and moire tactical.

2) Hardness - by this I mean that Top Player and Superstar shouldn't just be cheat mode gone bad and have the CPU chase for 90 minutes pressuring here there and everywhere, but have the CPU play more tactically, press more intelligently with their strikers on my defenders (but know when to stop if I create a way out of defence), but this involves a somewhat live and accurate stamina system for both CPU and human. The tactical game of PES should be much much deeper. Someone highlighted yesterday on like ISS or something that you could assign zonal, pressing, man marking etc for each and every player. What if I want to press with my strikers and AMF, but have the rest of the team in banks defending deeper!?!? It seems a lot of early good tactical stuff has been taken out of PES.

3) Team/player style variety - must be more. They need to nail core teams. Barcelona/Swansea/Arsenal etc etc, these teams need to keep the ball forever. For teams like Barcelona there should be massive prolonged game time where the human doesn't touch the ball, with Swansea more football in their own half as they look to work you from your defensive units. Now I'm not saying look at every team - but a team which has possession as their team style or ultra possession as I would like to call it, will literally keep the ball for ages. Now the players have a part here too, because their stats need to reflect the technical ability to keep the ball, so team styles must fit hand in glove with player individuality.

Now I would love for PES to work on graphics and aesthetics this year, but really and truly, as long as these things are implemented above, then I don't really care about these things.

BUT - just to emphasise, safe players, in which every team has 4/5/6, must perform to their individuality and pass the ball around. It's amazing how the game will change and will test the players patience if they have to defend properly for a minute of Earth time. It may be a hardcore system, but it needs to be implemented.

Apparently Adam has promised and hinted us individuality in player styles and team styles this year. So, once again we will see.
 
curdstar said:
Nice. A condescending comment towards another community shows a higher level of maturity. I mean of course it does.

As does going onto other forums, and coming here and making 'clever' remarks.

And Ameppe, we know your alias on WENB, you post there regular enough. If you don't want to post anymore let us know ;)
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No problem if you and Adam know who i am on wenb. I want to continue to post on wenb because there are great users over there but i just don't like being like in a sort of regime because of Adam.

Anyway, if you ask me i would prefer a closed beta, not a demo, to test the game. Obviously the beta should be fixed everyday thanks to beta players feedback with updates like every normal software house does. A beta is useless if it's treated like an early demo.
 
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I hope people refrain from insulting fellow forums. We are more mature than that, right?

It's ok to not agree with everything anyone says or does, but it's not ok to be condescending. Say what yous want but keep it respectful.

We're not here to encourage flame wars among us fellow forums.

Arigatou Gozaimasu.
 
I do not think konam should release early or two demos! This is was a total mistake! Demo must be based on final code. The demo used to sell the full game, must be perfect.

At best option is to launch open beta version , like the big game developers do , which will have the option for feedback for the key elements in the game .

Over the years it became clear that, Konami has not quality testers, why the forums do not help them?

PES need BETA for testing , no early demos !
 
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ccshopland said:
This is where KONAMI have to be careful with Active AI. I love the 'life' PES has this year with player movements, but it becomes a fine line if there is also too much player movement especially ahead of the ball, as this then triggers the attack followed by counter attack mechanism.
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That, combined with the relentless run tracking by CPU, may be the cause for ridiculously deep CPU defending and quick bus parking.

Following is happening way too often - my player is trying to run behind the d-line, nearest CPU defender will simply run along him and totally disregard that my player would most likely be in offside position if he (CPU defender) had chosen to maintain his position in d-line. And other defenders then usually follow their colleague and drop deeper to maintain the line. So before you can spell Rumpelstiltskin, the bus is parked.

There's something wrong with tracking decisions that AI makes ... there's too much emphasis on tracking and/or it takes way too long to realize that there's no point in tracking ... if they give up, it usually happens after 5-10 meters of needles chasing/shadowing. E.g. try to move your CF with right stick during long free kicks as close as possible towards goalkeeper ... CPU marker will always retreat and stay behind his back for at least 5 meters, totally messing-up the d-line, before he realizes that he should return in the line and leave your CF stranded in offside.
 
I personally think that PES2012 has a 'park the bus' mentality because the game still hasn't addressed stamina in any way whatsoever. The CPU is able to sprint at full speed with no limits to their stamina. A real person can only sprint at full speed in very short bursts and it drastically affects their body in terms of power, stamina, not least their sprinting ability will be less than it was initially.

Yet, in PES2012, the CPU relentlessly sprints after the ball carrier, then relentlessly sprints back into position when you pass the ball. It makes the CPU become able to spend the whole 90 minutes doing something a real person could only do quite rarely.

I tried demo 2 last night and I even saw it there, albeit to a lesser extent, but within two seconds of controlling the ball I'd have three players triple press me at full sprint. Pass the ball, then they will sprint back into position and another three will leave their defensive line and sprint at you. It's beatable, but makes the game anything but realistic. Stamina is as much an equal as technique, but Konami just ignore it.

This oddly helps the player to keep high possession rates though, as you can easily keep the ball from pressing players fairly deep in your own half. Get further up, and the pressing obviously becomes more squeezed. There's no real sense of the CPU cutting off passing lanes, it's just press, press, press. So you run out of space further up the field, but when deeper, well, it's like a training excersise in keeping the ball from mad onrushing opponents.

As for trigger runs, I hate them. They don't even work properly in FIFA anyways, you use them and your player just runs in a straight line. Rubbish.
 
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AntrAcsA said:
Over the years it became clear that, Konami has not quality testers, why the forums do not help them?

PES need BETA for testing , no early demos !
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Konami's greatest asset is their dedicated, almost cult-like community for PES. They have to take advantage of this. It makes no sense not to.
 
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