PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

curdstar said:
Really does make my skin crawl reading your posts. We've been here before. Your stubborness and unwillingness to actually see someones point is your weakness. It's been pulled up before on these boards even, not sure if it's pride or you really do have selective reading.

Your accusations at WENB are false and disrespectful. If you acted half as decent as you do on here on there, you'd never have been banned.

I think you'd be a true asset if you didn't weigh so much on your opinion, and at the same time show willingness to listen. I see you as a huge fan of yourself, and because of that your valid points are lost on me.

Oh well.
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No probs. I'll weigh in only on the patch section.
 
lons_pl said:
Look how FIFA has evolved and Pes.

Pes 2008 - beta version of the game with terrible animations,slow downs, terrible online (lags), poor edit mode, fast arcade pace,automatic passing.

Pes 2009 - continue beta Pes 2008 with the same problems but without slow downs but with the same problems like Pes 2008.

Pes 2010 - Nice graphics, some new animations but still looking ugly, with better pace. Game looks like Pes 2008 and 2009 with better wrapped

Summary:

Three years and still have problems with basic things.

Pes 2011 - good move from KONAMI. Freedom in passing, good pace, better online, shooting not so bad but better than Pes 2012. A.I not good. The game was fresh. It feels like new menatality of the game.

Pes 2012 - Continue Pes 2011 but with a lot of bad things like assist passing, terrible shooting, the same some ugly animations, scripting game, primitive keepers A.I. New and nice ball physics.

Summary:

Another two yeras with good A.I and ball physics. Rest is poor.


FIFA 08 - new engine with good pace, maybe to slow, nice graphics,something fresh and in particular good basic for the futere. Good online.

FIFA 09 - another huge step in animations and collision system. Better ball physics but still to floaty. Nice grapahics and big step forward. Good online with 11 v 11.

FIFA 10 - 360 degree, better ball physics, upgrade animations and collisions, A.I much better for keepers + animaytions for them etc.

FIFA 11 - they try make better individuality but still not good, better graphisc, better turfs, pace good.

FIFA 12 - new collision engine with a lot of bugs but technically looks superb. Nice new camera, a lot new animations and upgrade old one, upgrade ball physics, new commentary and good audio + chants like all Fifa's.

Summary:

They know want they want and they do it.

Compare this to ways how two games evolved in this generation of consoles. FIFA change things for better, and adds, upgrade new one. They have one idea and don't change mentality of the game. Pes don't know what they want. In one game they created freedom passing in another adds automatic arcade style. What is going on? Why they dont' continue good thigs? and change it for bad? I don't know. That's all.
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My point, exactly! KONAMI lost their way and there is no force in this world that can change my mind about PES 2013, we've all been a part of this 5 year old torture fest, that KONAMI made us the VIP's, while the FIFA hardcore fans were singing and laughing, enjoying themselves.

For me PES died with PES 6, anything that was produced after that title was not Pro Evo. If KONAMI ever manages to prove that they still got it, the next title for me will be called "PES 7" until now, the series are dead for me. I just can't bare the disappointment again and again. :TUMBLE:
 
lons_pl said:
Look how FIFA has evolved and Pes.

Pes 2008 - beta version of the game with terrible animations,slow downs, terrible online (lags), poor edit mode, fast arcade pace,automatic passing.

Pes 2009 - continue beta Pes 2008 with the same problems but without slow downs but with the same problems like Pes 2008.

Pes 2010 - Nice graphics, some new animations but still looking ugly, with better pace. Game looks like Pes 2008 and 2009 with better wrapped

Summary:

Three years and still have problems with basic things.

Pes 2011 - good move from KONAMI. Freedom in passing, good pace, better online, shooting not so bad but better than Pes 2012. A.I not good. The game was fresh. It feels like new menatality of the game.

Pes 2012 - Continue Pes 2011 but with a lot of bad things like assist passing, terrible shooting, the same some ugly animations, scripting game, primitive keepers A.I. New and nice ball physics.

Summary:

Another two yeras with good A.I and ball physics. Rest is poor.


FIFA 08 - new engine with good pace, maybe to slow, nice graphics,something fresh and in particular good basic for the futere. Good online.

FIFA 09 - another huge step in animations and collision system. Better ball physics but still to floaty. Nice grapahics and big step forward. Good online with 11 v 11.

FIFA 10 - 360 degree, better ball physics, upgrade animations and collisions, A.I much better for keepers + animaytions for them etc.

FIFA 11 - they try make better individuality but still not good, better graphisc, better turfs, pace good.

FIFA 12 - new collision engine with a lot of bugs but technically looks superb. Nice new camera, a lot new animations and upgrade old one, upgrade ball physics, new commentary and good audio + chants like all Fifa's.

Summary:

They know want they want and they do it.

Compare this to ways how two games evolved in this generation of consoles. FIFA change things for better, and adds, upgrade new one. They have one idea and don't change mentality of the game. Pes don't know what they want. In one game they created freedom passing in another adds automatic arcade style. What is going on? Why they dont' continue good thigs? and change it for bad? I don't know. That's all.
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One team had a vision and put money into the game and got better each year and has now reaped the rewards.

One team wanted to put in little effort and decided to put graphics before gameplay and did not put any money back into the series purely to maximise profits.
 
Ameppe said:
i have to say that pes 2012 gives its best if played at slower pace, playing with a passing game always using hold up play, without rushing towards opposition players spamming X (or A) button, it can be frustrating and difficult to control at first, but once mastered this will hugely help with the defensive side of things
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Yeah I've played like that in the beginning, the only thing I did in defence was using hold-up play all the time and fast switching from defender to defender. You can use holdup play for other things: to cut down passing lanes and even to get in front of your marker in a mid air duel.
But I don't like to play like that because your movement is very automatic and it doesn't feel like I'm in control.
 
I'm trying very hard to enjoy PES but I'm not quite getting it. Whenever I go back to it I love it for the first few games playing on Regular but the moment Regular gets too easy and I bump it up to Professional I just can't enjoy it anymore.

Any advice?
 
Advice depends on a few things I guess. What game mode are you playing? What teams are you playing with and what's the difference between the two difficulties that's annoying you?
 
I'm mainly playing exhibition but dabbling in tournaments like the Champions League or Euro 2012. I play with all sorts of teams, big vs big, big vs small, small vs big, small vs small.

I'm not quite sure what the differences are. I guess one of the main factors may be increased AI pressure that annoys me too much so any tips for finding more time on the ball would be nice. Defensive tips would be nice too, although I think I just need to remember to be disciplined and not dive in as much as I am.
 
StayingPower said:
I'm mainly playing exhibition but dabbling in tournaments like the Champions League or Euro 2012. I play with all sorts of teams, big vs big, big vs small, small vs big, small vs small.

I'm not quite sure what the differences are. I guess one of the main factors may be increased AI pressure that annoys me too much so any tips for finding more time on the ball would be nice. Defensive tips would be nice too, although I think I just need to remember to be disciplined and not dive in as much as I am.
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Do you play on semi-assisted cursor settings?

Defensively, the main thing to do is sit back a little and watch your AI controlled team-mates track the ball carrier. It's easy to get caught up switching to a player and immediately wanting to stop the guy with the ball. If you do that, you might notice a team-mate of yours was honing in on the same player and then he sees you there and changes his run.

I try to anticipate the next pass and close off the option or if I'm the best option to track the ball carrier, I'll try to get in front of him and not dive in if I don't have cover behind me.

Offensively, it depends on how you like to play the game and if the team's tactics are set up accordingly. If you like to move the ball quickly but your player support is low, for example, then you might not have enough players getting forward quickly.

Try playing a game but go into the tactics screen first and set up the first tactic slot with a setup that would appear to match your preference and see if players are moving to the right spot for you.

If you don't mind being patient, it can pay to play the ball backwards where you need to rebuild an attacking play. You will notice runs being made, but you might have a short timeframe in which to use that option before it gets closed off. Risk vs reward comes in here as to whether you should play it or rebuild and wait for something better. Patience "might" help with the pressure. See how you go!
 
Those tips helped a lot! I beat Zaragoza 2-0 with Bilbao and had 74% of the possession. That was on Regular difficulty but I've never had that much possession. A few more questions:

Is it common to have several players at "red" fatigue level by around the 80th minute, and almost the entire team by the end of the match? Or am I using sprint too much? I felt like I wasn't using it that much in this game especially but I still had lots of tired players.

What camera do you guys recommend? I usually use wide but I loved the Broadcast angle in the older PES games. I tried Live Broadcast but that really does emulate an actual broadcast, camera changes and all, which is pretty hard to play with.
 
Funnily enough I thought it would be cool to have a camera that emulated a real camera but now seeing it in action I'm not so sure lol. I think Lami and I joked about it a few months back. Medium is good for the detail and feeling in the game but I have been a long time user of Long cam and only recently shifted to wide cam which gives a lot more view and has a flatter camera angle. I'm liking that one at the moment :)

Good to hear those tips helped! A few here would argue that 74% possession is too high :P hehe but try going to professional now and see how you go.

Players are making runs off the ball or without your control, so to speak, so they can still get tired without you sprinting all the time. Not sure why they're all that tired to be honest. I notice the fatigue levels in my Master League campaign and if I play an exhibition game to work out who should come off. But I don't pay it much attention...maybe I should lol
 
Yeah 74% was too much but for a test on Regular it was a definite improvement. I just beat Man City 2-1 as Stoke with 64% of the possession on Professional so perhaps I should turn it up again? I don't think I'm good enough to win or even draw on Top Player, the possession seems to be an anomaly. No harm in trying though!

As for the fatigue, it seems like red doesn't mean they can't move any more which is always my first assumption when I see a red fatigue bar! I think I'll just turn off the fatigue indicator on the pitch so it won't bug me anymore.
 
Give it a go! Try it with a Euro 2012 tournament though as you might get different results. Not sure how relevant the fatigue actually is as I've never really tested it properly but the indicator could be handy so you know when a player should be subbed.
 
StayingPower said:
Yeah 74% was too much but for a test on Regular it was a definite improvement. I just beat Man City 2-1 as Stoke with 64% of the possession on Professional so perhaps I should turn it up again? I don't think I'm good enough to win or even draw on Top Player, the possession seems to be an anomaly. No harm in trying though!

As for the fatigue, it seems like red doesn't mean they can't move any more which is always my first assumption when I see a red fatigue bar! I think I'll just turn off the fatigue indicator on the pitch so it won't bug me anymore.
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Your disproportionate possession rates are not an anomaly, but look, frankly, if you are enjoying the game then just ignore it and have fun. I wish you the best of times and keep posting your progress.
 
I gave professional a go yesterday with zero assistance, twenty minute games, and I must say the games were a lot more enjoyable.

I can beat the system so to speak on Superstar, but the game just descends into anarchy. The only problem with professional - yeah you guessed it the possession stats.

BUT I've come to a bit of a truce with the game now that this years iteration simply doesn't reflect this very well at all, so if I get say 60% possession then I'm happy that this isn't so bad. For the first time in ages I was actually enjoying the creative side of things, in terms of focusing more on player individuality, instead of screaming the ball around the ball at 100mpg to get that fraction of space.

Whilst it's not ideal to keep having astronomical amounts of possession, I feel that at least I can put the console version on and enjoy the damn thing instead of just looking to win.

I just wish that KONAMI could have implemented the team work gameplan better, yesterday a team I played against who had possession as their game plan just couldn't hold onto it, and some other team with long ball, had about 40% possession. But I felt it was s step in the right direction for me v console this year.
 
ccshopland said:
I gave professional a go yesterday with zero assistance, twenty minute games, and I must say the games were a lot more enjoyable.

I can beat the system so to speak on Superstar, but the game just descends into anarchy. The only problem with professional - yeah you guessed it the possession stats.

BUT I've come to a bit of a truce with the game now that this years iteration simply doesn't reflect this very well at all, so if I get say 60% possession then I'm happy that this isn't so bad. For the first time in ages I was actually enjoying the creative side of things, in terms of focusing more on player individuality, instead of screaming the ball around the ball at 100mpg to get that fraction of space.

Whilst it's not ideal to keep having astronomical amounts of possession, I feel that at least I can put the console version on and enjoy the damn thing instead of just looking to win.

I just wish that KONAMI could have implemented the team work gameplan better, yesterday a team I played against who had possession as their game plan just couldn't hold onto it, and some other team with long ball, had about 40% possession. But I felt it was s step in the right direction for me v console this year.
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Totally agree ,anything above professional results in God mode AI.
This years problem is the direct play from AI,they must be more human and tactical in PES2013 not just goal scoring machine
 
You're free to laugh at me, I've been having very enjoyable games on regular. It's easier yes and you can keep possession forever but there's no AI interference in players actions and there's no insane amount of pressing that exists in other difficulties bypassing any possible team instructions. Also it seems that players play more according to their stats. It's a more laid back experience but very satisfying.
 
I've been having more fun with this game playing on two bar pass assist and having a more arcade style kickabout (on default speed). The individuality seems better too. As a whole the game feels better by playing more assisted, at a higher speed - kind of like the good old days.
 
Jamezinho said:
I've been having more fun with this game playing on two bar pass assist and having a more arcade style kickabout (on default speed). The individuality seems better too. As a whole the game feels better by playing more assisted, at a higher speed - kind of like the good old days.
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so it is confirmed that the game is build to be played as an arcade game
to be honest, this is a shame since pes has always been a simularcade, not a full arcade game
 
Ameppe said:
so it is confirmed that the game is build to be played as an arcade game
to be honest, this is a shame since pes has always been a simularcade, not a full arcade game
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Well, not confirmed, just my preference. I find the unassisted passing to be too unpredictable in this game, and with the relentless pressure of the CPU and the entrenched defences, it's just frustrating. Now it's easier to knock the ball about and think about playing nice passing moves rather than trying to place every pass inch perfect. It's just more fun to me.

In my opinion, football games should be 'sim-cade'. A 100% simulation would be boring and unachievable within the 10 minute time frame which is the de facto standard for football games. The experience needs to be like a caricature of a football match, condensing the highs and lows into a smaller time frame.
 
I've tried to keep this undercover lads, but this week I've really been enjoying the game on the console (with Chimps) far more than the PC version, played on professional, zero assists. I am now playing on pitch side cam gamespeed 0, but the game (after playing both PC PES and FIFA) seems to be much more simulated based. It's been really weird.

Because of the AI not pressure crazy (normally play on superstar), I've been focusing more on the little nuances especially in regards to one on one situations, and am really liking it again.

I just wish there would be more possessive variation in build up play from the CPU though, and more varied styles of play. But, it's been a pleasant experience with little or no scripting that has been THAT obvious so far.

I know, it shocked me too!
 
ccshopland said:
I've tried to keep this undercover lads, but this week I've really been enjoying the game on the console (with Chimps) far more than the PC version, played on professional, zero assists. I am now playing on pitch side cam gamespeed 0, but the game (after playing both PC PES and FIFA) seems to be much more simulated based. It's been really weird.

Because of the AI not pressure crazy (normally play on superstar), I've been focusing more on the little nuances especially in regards to one on one situations, and am really liking it again.

I just wish there would be more possessive variation in build up play from the CPU though, and more varied styles of play. But, it's been a pleasant experience with little or no scripting that has been THAT obvious so far.

I know, it shocked me too!
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CC have been tempted to do the same, I play SS -2 0 pass assist 15 minute matches and despite me finding some sort of equilibrium with SS the AI can be infuriating, I have 10 majestic games on SS and then suddenly Bolton become football masters, as if their stats have been boosted by about 50 percent.

I think pro is more balanced and realistic in terms of stats, ie less stat boosting for the AI my only concern is after getting somewhat used to SS pro may lack that competitive edge that SS provides. I have a good win ratio on SS but man it can be unrealistic almost to the point that it insults your intelligence. One thing I will say about this game is it keeps me coming back for more, something incredibly addictive about it.

Whoever at konami decided to implement scripting to this extent must be a cretin though, I started to notice it in pes 2010 and its got steadily worse. Of course the last gen game had scripting but not at these crazy levels.

Oh yeah the biased refs on superstar are fucking hideous at times, its the year 2012 and konami still need biased refs to make the game that bit harder, embarrassing really when you think about it.
 
Yeah, so I've read all the posts on this page. It's amazing how far we will go to try and find even a reasonably good gaming experience with PES 2012.

I've tried zero assists on Professional, Top Player and Superstar; I've tried one and two bars on all three settings: I still end up with over 60-70% of the possession. I just don't see how that amounts to a good gaming experience.

And you know, I've been playing (when I do, rarely now, go back to this game) very speculative football, with lots of long ball and lofted through balls and unlikely shot-taking; heck, I'm trying to give the ball back to the CPU, for god's sake. They just don't want to keep it!

It feels weird that in the back of my mind, while I'm playing, I kind of want to give the ball back to the CPU, to give them some possession. This morning, I played as Newcastle vs. Stoke, and after a very speculative through ball I lost possession (thank god!) in Stoke's penalty box. The CPU CMF picked up the ball and dribbled to the circle (like a demon) and passed it to Crouch, who dribbled (amazingly well, of course) to the edge of my penalty box, passed it back to the CMF who took a shot. How is that good gameplay? It is the antithesis of PES/WE...

I don't know why Konami won't release a simple patch. Forget all the small problems with the game. I can forgive everything except the lack of CPU build-up/variation. And I'm convinced the problem is not hard to solve:

That is, I really don't blame the CPU for its directness. Because of the extraordinary amount of overlapping runs from SBs and midfielders in the game, you end up (when playing offense) with a completely empty field (aside from your CBs who have moved up to the edge of the circle). When the CPU dispossess you, why shouldn't they just drive forward like maniacs? The whole field is basically empty. I can't blame the CMF from Stoke for just dribbling forward--one of my SBs had overlapped, two of my three midfielders had made runs. Why should the CPU CMF wait, why be patient? Its empty space before him.

All Konami has to do, I think, is decrease the runs. Players should be more likely to maintain their positions...I think it would force the CPU to reconsider its strategy.

This doesn't have to be a fatal or irreversible flaw in the game. Decreasing automatic player runs should not be hard to accomplish.
 
I've been thinking about difficulty levels and specifically the question:

"In a stats based game of football, how do you make the AI better or worse without boosting or decreasing stats?"

In other words, if CPU stats were NOT lowered for beginner/regular level and NOT boosted for top player/superstar level, what other ways are there of making the game easier or more challenging?
I can't think of anything that doesn't involve manipulating the default stats.

Perhaps leave all stats untouched except the teamwork stat? So, all players would shoot, run, tackle etc. true to their stats no matter what level you are playing, with the only thing changing being how coherently the CPU "Team" plays together at the different levels.

Or have no difficulty levels at all but just make stats, individuality and tactics so influential in the game engine that there's a huge difference between the very best and very worst teams. If you want a challenge, pick a bad team and almost every game should be difficult because all opponents are better. If you want it easier, pick a top team and have a clear advantage over the worst sides but still face a really stiff challenge against similar or better sides.
 
ollywolly said:
I've been thinking about difficulty levels and specifically the question:

"In a stats based game of football, how do you make the AI better or worse without boosting or decreasing stats?"

In other words, if CPU stats were NOT lowered for beginner/regular level and NOT boosted for top player/superstar level, what other ways are there of making the game easier or more challenging?
I can't think of anything that doesn't involve manipulating the default stats.

Perhaps leave all stats untouched except the teamwork stat? So, all players would shoot, run, tackle etc. true to their stats no matter what level you are playing, with the only thing changing being how coherently the CPU "Team" plays together at the different levels.

Or have no difficulty levels at all but just make stats, individuality and tactics so influential in the game engine that there's a huge difference between the very best and very worst teams. If you want a challenge, pick a bad team and almost every game should be difficult because all opponents are better. If you want it easier, pick a top team and have a clear advantage over the worst sides but still face a really stiff challenge against similar or better sides.
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I know what your are saying, but there are 'other' variables IRL aside from player stats that influence the outcome of the game are there not?

I don't think that stats boosting is THE definitive way to make the game better/harder personally, but I don't know how hard it is for KONAMI to ensure that players play like their stats and teams follow team styles.

I mean the game this year has been set up for attack and counter, that's the way it is. You can play possession, but this involves patience, which I can do, but what you have then is a complete and utter offsetting of possession %, sometimes as high as 70% against a top three or four team, which is absurd.

So, what I'm trying to say is that with enough team styles, and enough players playing to their stats, this will make the game invariably harder anyway, and a lot more interesting tactically. What we have now, is the human player playing a possession game, the active AI taking all his players ahead of the ball carrier, the CPU parking the bus, and then countering with blistering speed with insane dribbling speed and accuracy. Now reverse this; and what do we have - not the same, because if the human player decides to play a counter game, the CPU is a) unable to hold onto the ball for more than 5 seconds b) is programmed to STILL dribble as direct as possible with insane accuracy.

SO - what is the CPU not doing?!?

Well, it's not taking into consideration individuality. Take Man Utd for example, who I just played. Even Fletcher was just smashing forward dribbling away like no tomorrow. So what is needed is a complete clean slate from KONAMI on how both the CPU and human play off.

Fletcher should be lateral passes, backward passes. So to Carrick. Scholes, small touches and small ten fifteen yard passes in triangles.

The main problem is that the CPU just aren't programmed to be aware of where they are on the pitch, where the human threat is, how many of the human threat there is, and where their players are in relation to the human. If the CPU actually had build up play for say teams like Swansea and Arsenal, then the game would suddenly be a lot more tactical, and a lot more realistic. Stoke could still fire in long ball after long ball, but the teams that look to play football will play football and not be afraid to pass backwards and laterally. It's as if the CPU either isn't aware of the danger of the human pressing defence, or just doesn't care. Now IRL, if a CPU defender was put under extreme pressing pressure, it would pass back to the goalie or pass laterally....not on your life in PES, it's just straight straight straight.

I like the idea that that Curdie bloke put forward, with players having tendencies or something. Even something as simply as 1) safe player (which would be your bog standard possession type footballer 2) flair player (who looks to hit through balls, dribbles etc) 3) Long ball lumper (who plays it long from the back or looks to lump it forward).

These are just off the top of my head by the way.

The tactical defensive side for the human player should be THE most interesting part of the game for me, in that you must defend patiently and correctly or the CPU will pick passes through your midfield. The midfield HAS to be brought right back to the fore again. This then brings a whole tactical dimension to proceedings, where if you play say Barcelona they will just pick their way through you, so you almost HAVE to adopt a defensive line of say 3/4 approach. BUT, if you play a weaker team with less possession/ball skills, then you can look to press them.

The tactical side of PES is totally lost at the moment for me. Until KONAMI get the game tempo down to a tee, and have players playing like their counterparts with default tendencies or something, then the game will continue to be quite linear.

It's getting to a stage with KONAMI where I don't really give a shit if there's some kind of in-built possession indicator code that sets off the CPU to maintain possession for a bit if the human player has it way too high.

Also intertwined with all this is the stamina system. Active AI is great, but seriously players simply cannot move like they do both for the CPU and human like this for the whole of the match, there has to be periods of relative slowness.

So what I want as you go through the difficulty levels perhaps, is not how cheaty the CPU becomes, but how better it keeps possession and works the human player. If this was in place, then the real sim side of PES would shine I'm sure, and we could all start having 20/25 minute matches, which will show off team/player individuality, bring out tactics and gameplans, and have safe yet good players playing it safe and good, the dribblers occasionally taking people on, and the long ballers lumping it.


How easy is all this? I don't know.
 
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I didn't really want to get into what's wrong with the game and how to improve it, I think that's been done enough. I just saw a few people talking about the AI playing above their stats on higher levels and genuinely wondered what else apart from boosting stats Konami can really do to make the game harder?
That's not to say I agree with this method, I want there to be something else but can't think of much.

ccshopland said:
I know what your are saying, but there are 'other' variables IRL aside from player stats that influence the outcome of the game are there not?

Sure, one I mentioned was tactics. The best teams have a clear "Tactic A" which plays to their strengths. Top managers can also adapt tactics perfectly for each opponent or change them on the fly in a match to fit the situation. Maybe Konami could implement a system where teams become tactically better and more flexible as you move up levels. Other variables are fatigue, confidence and referees but these shouldn't affect the difficulty of the game. your players shouldn't be more tired or less confident and the ref shouldn't always favour the opposition just because you are playing on SS-level. These should be variables that affect both teams from time to time at any difficulty level.

I don't think that stats boosting is THE definitive way to make the game better/harder personally, but I don't know how hard it is for KONAMI to ensure that players play like their stats and teams follow team styles.

It shouldn't be too hard. It was possible to get teams playing a certain style in PES2011.

I mean the game this year has been set up for attack and counter, that's the way it is. You can play possession, but this involves patience, which I can do, but what you have then is a complete and utter offsetting of possession %, sometimes as high as 70% against a top three or four team, which is absurd.

So, what I'm trying to say is that with enough team styles, and enough players playing to their stats, this will make the game invariably harder anyway, and a lot more interesting tactically. This is what I said in my last paragraph where I tried to suggest a way of increasing difficulty without boosting stats. If there is enough difference between individual players and different team styles, the difficulty will come from facing top teams and constantly facing different styles, some of which will give your particular style big problems What we have now, is the human player playing a possession game, the active AI taking all his players ahead of the ball carrier, the CPU parking the bus, and then countering with blistering speed with insane dribbling speed and accuracy. Now reverse this; and what do we have - not the same, because if the human player decides to play a counter game, the CPU is a) unable to hold onto the ball for more than 5 seconds b) is programmed to STILL dribble as direct as possible with insane accuracy. this is a flaw in the game at all levels so not really what I want to talk about

SO - what is the CPU not doing?!?

Well, it's not taking into consideration individuality. Take Man Utd for example, who I just played. Even Fletcher was just smashing forward dribbling away like no tomorrow. So what is needed is a complete clean slate from KONAMI on how both the CPU and human play off.

Fletcher should be lateral passes, backward passes. So to Carrick. Scholes, small touches and small ten fifteen yard passes in triangles.

The main problem is that the CPU just aren't programmed to be aware of where they are on the pitch, where the human threat is, how many of the human threat there is, and where their players are in relation to the human. If the CPU actually had build up play for say teams like Swansea and Arsenal, then the game would suddenly be a lot more tactical, and a lot more realistic. Stoke could still fire in long ball after long ball, but the teams that look to play football will play football and not be afraid to pass backwards and laterally. It's as if the CPU either isn't aware of the danger of the human pressing defence, or just doesn't care. Now IRL, if a CPU defender was put under extreme pressing pressure, it would pass back to the goalie or pass laterally....not on your life in PES, it's just straight straight straight.

I like the idea that that Curdie bloke put forward, with players having tendencies or something. Even something as simply as 1) safe player (which would be your bog standard possession type footballer 2) flair player (who looks to hit through balls, dribbles etc) 3) Long ball lumper (who plays it long from the back or looks to lump it forward). All good suggestions to improve the game but again I want to focus on difficulty levels. It wouldn't be right to have a long ball player and just boost his long ball accuracy at higher levels, so what to do instead? Perhaps have a decision making stat. Every time a CPU player has the ball, he could have 3 or 4 decisions to make. At higher game levels let the CPU chooses the correct decision more often while still staying true to stats. Example, a slow centre back has the ball - decision 1: long ball to fast winger, decision 2: short pass to crowded player, decision 3: take on the opponent. We're playing high level so CPU should take option 1 most often, but success of that long ball should still depend completely on stats.

These are just off the top of my head by the way.

The tactical defensive side for the human player should be THE most interesting part of the game for me, in that you must defend patiently and correctly or the CPU will pick passes through your midfield. The midfield HAS to be brought right back to the fore again. This then brings a whole tactical dimension to proceedings, where if you play say Barcelona they will just pick their way through you, so you almost HAVE to adopt a defensive line of say 3/4 approach. BUT, if you play a weaker team with less possession/ball skills, then you can look to press them. Yes, this is how it should be, but again how do things change as you go up in difficulty? The things I've thought of so far are getting rid of difficulty levels alltogether, only boosting one stat such as teamwork or implementing a new decision stat. No way I'm saying these are the only ways, I'd love to hear some other thoughts, anything that doesn't involve stat boosts.

The tactical side of PES is totally lost at the moment for me. Until KONAMI get the game tempo down to a tee, and have players playing like their counterparts with default tendencies or something, then the game will continue to be quite linear.

It's getting to a stage with KONAMI where I don't really give a shit if there's some kind of in-built possession indicator code that sets off the CPU to maintain possession for a bit if the human player has it way too high.

Also intertwined with all this is the stamina system. Active AI is great, but seriously players simply cannot move like they do both for the CPU and human like this for the whole of the match, there has to be periods of relative slowness.

So what I want as you go through the difficulty levels perhaps, is not how cheaty the CPU becomes, but how better it keeps possession and works the human player. I was going to say, how can this be done without boosting passing or teamwork stats and wouldn't long ball teams then start keeping better possession too? And how I was against that. Then I realised I earlier suggested increasing teamwork stats and nothing else as you go up in difficulty, but now I'm against even that. I'm confusing myself and probably you now, but I conclude that no stats should ever be boosted or lowered, If individuality and tactics were more pronounced, the difficulty should come from who you are playing with or against and there should be no need for difficulty levels. If this was in place, then the real sim side of PES would shine I'm sure, and we could all start having 20/25 minute matches, which will show off team/player individuality, bring out tactics and gameplans, and have safe yet good players playing it safe and good, the dribblers occasionally taking people on, and the long ballers lumping it.


How easy is all this? I don't know.
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I´ve had the same opinion all my videofootballing life. Difficulty should be the same for everybody, regarding opposition stats and strenghts, and your tactical and technical input. Just like a racing game, your opposition is going to do their job, and you use "help" if you don´t have what it takes. This would separate boys from men, being nevertheless made for both. I dream about it since NES Konami Pro Evolutions...
 
And why must have good and huge ONLINE mode. If you want more difficult , found good players and play .
Every offline mode, every offline playing function like to play co-op Leagues,Cups, Training, Master Leagues and.. all, all modes must be available for onlyne and then PES will be best seller , i'm 100 % sure. Is all about people, players, sociality, community.
EA realized that now make lots of money while konam wonder what is wrong and fix what is not broken.

And now when I read the nonsense that Adam has been written about PES 2013, if it's true, in my head comes on some very good advertising motto for the new PES.
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:D But he is always wrong
 
Some good posts here lately :)

The "tendencies" thing is sort of there already I guess because you might have a midfielder who is offensively minded, neutral, or defensively minded. There's a stat name I think but I can't remember it. The way you described it (or Curdie did) is good but has to be balanced within the team structure and style. If a guy has a "lump it forward" tendency but his team is set up with a slow build up, then obviously we don't want that guy knocking long balls into space without any players there...which sometimes happens now lol

I too play on Professional with zero assists (-1 speed) and I've been enjoying it a lot lately. Agree that it would be nice to see all teams pass the ball around more, with the relevant teams building up slower and less directly.

Just got promoted to the Premier League and have noticed the quality of buildup is better. Not necessarily less direct, but with the better passers on some teams, they play some wonderful diagonal passes into space in behind the full backs. Picked up a guy called Lala - not sure if he was in my youth team or what lol, but he got on the end of 2 beatiful passing moves against Fulham in the 2nd game to become a favourite of mine haha.
 
Ameppe said:
so it is confirmed that the game is build to be played as an arcade game
to be honest, this is a shame since pes has always been a simularcade, not a full arcade game
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Anything but.

This game provides both options, Sim and Arcade, and probably a mixture of both with the settings Jamez utilises.

Zero Assistance on Professional has always been the most simulated and balanced option. For all the many reasons I have written here since release. PES has never been anywhere near as simulated as what this provides, not even close.

4-Bar Passing Assistance with all other Assists On, and 0 to +2 Speed is the Arcade option.

2-Bar Assistance with all other Assists OFF, is your 'Sim-Cade'.

Play which ever way your preference suits.

The only problem with this system is Online, it needs Filters like Fifa. Although, even Fifa didn't have them from the get-go as I remember from Fifa 09. Konami should have learnt from this.
 
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