AntrAcsA
Banned
- 8 November 2006
PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......
- Thread starter Jimmy G-Force
- Start date
Flaw3d Genius
Banned
When you say professional footballers can only run for very short burts how short are you talking here as this day and age football players are very fit and are able to sprint a half of a football pitch no problem.
ccshopland
Premier League
- 4 January 2011
5-10 yards as far as Carroll is concerned!
Flaw3d Genius
Banned
Poor Liverpool lol, 35 million for that lump.
Jamezinho
Golden Boot Winner
Matt Le Tissier spent his career within the centre circle.
- Thread starter
- #14,376
Jimmy G-Force
Resident PES Fanman
Jamezinho
Golden Boot Winner
He did wonderful things with the minimum of effort. A lazy player but so gifted, a regular goal of the month entrant and probably kept the saints in the premier league longer than they should have.
Lons
AMIGA 1200 HARDCORE FAN!
- 15 December 2007
100% agreed!!! It was the biggest mistake released two demos! People jugde it and hate it. One demo with the latest code.
zeemeister
foxy engine
One of my favourite players this. Loved his style of play and that range shooting was just magnificent.
ccshopland
Premier League
- 4 January 2011
^ Sorry to continue off topic, but his penalty ratio was phenomenal too I believe. Wonderful player, which shows it takes all sorts in this world.
jammiedodger
Premier League
Some out of this world goals. Goals every pes player aspires to be able to create and execute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XsMjB1kosKE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XsMjB1kosKE
ccshopland
Premier League
- 4 January 2011
Now they, were awesome!
Suuuuupertalk
International
- 17 August 2010
- Luton Town
Well we all know how far a pro sportsman can sprint at full speed. It you take a professional footballer and order him to sprint without stopping for 90 minutes he'd collapse with exhaustion. Do you see Messi sprinting not stop? No. He probably only sprints at full whack for 2% of an entire game, but it's so devastating because he knows where and when to do it.
Flaw3d Genius
Banned
Take your finger off the run button? :p Computer games are only 10 or 15 mins a match so they need to try and get that full excitement of a 90 min into 10. Having Messi only sprint 2% of the time in a 10 min match would be odd would it not? I guess it comes down to waiting a full sim or not like Rod wants with Fifa. A full sim with every mach 90 mins your point would be alot more valid i just dont think the gaming world wants this?
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Nobleknight
Manual Player
I agree with you ,it just need a realistic stamina system that can reflect 90 min into 10 min
We all know that PES2012 has no realistic system at all.It needs to be like fifa in that aspect 1.bar for sprint speed 2.bar for full match effort
really?!If he did so will the AI do the same or your online opponent do the same.
It needs a system that forces everyone to respect the reality of footballers being humans not just robots
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- Thread starter
- #14,386
Jimmy G-Force
Resident PES Fanman
Absolutely incredible.
I own the Matt Le Tissier DVD, and I never get bored of watching his talent. He was a flawed genius in every sense of the word.
Well here is a tip that might be usefull...
Use teammate control MANUAL instead of ASSISTED
I know in MANUAL mode it's difficult too manage and coordinate two joysticks in two different directions at the same the time.
But when you use teammate control in manual mode you don't have to run too long with the selected teammate.
I just select him with the rightstick, I turn in him into the direction I want, straight, diagonal, lateral or even backwards and I release rightstick. He will run into that direction for a short while just like they do when you trigger runs in assisted mode. But the good thing about manual mode is that you can trigger runs in any direction you want, the player doesn't stop when you deselect him. Great to make them run into the small gaps, great to make them run into open spaces. Switching from assisted to manual has another big advantage. In manual mode you can select one teammate after the other, you don't have to wait until he finishes his run before you can select another one.
It needs some practice at first, but believe me it can make a big difference when you get used to it. It saved my ass many times.
Ps: I play PES2012 on PC, but I guess teammate control on the consoles works the same.
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Sorry for going off-topic, but I can't help not ask, why wasn't he ever in the English National team? Or maybe he was but I never recall it happening.
ccshopland
Premier League
- 4 January 2011
It may have been something to do with work rate I suppose. In the Southampton 11 they had to cater for him, because he was their match winner and goals would have been gold dust down the bottom.
At international level, you cannot really carry anyone (at least England couldn't because they've never been good enough), and so probably was left out on this issue alone. But nevertheless a great player. I loved those Premiership years, used to listen to five live as a little nipper and have Ceefax on watching all the scores. The last day of the season with the championship deciders and relegation deciders were fantastic too. Don't forget teams like Man City went down with players like Kinkladze etc.
At international level, you cannot really carry anyone (at least England couldn't because they've never been good enough), and so probably was left out on this issue alone. But nevertheless a great player. I loved those Premiership years, used to listen to five live as a little nipper and have Ceefax on watching all the scores. The last day of the season with the championship deciders and relegation deciders were fantastic too. Don't forget teams like Man City went down with players like Kinkladze etc.
Jamezinho
Golden Boot Winner
He was seen as a luxury player, perhaps a little lazy (he was) for international football. Maybe someone who wouldn't give enough running.
That's the way the England set up viewed him in my opinion. I didn't agree with that view. He would have been in my England team all day long. Someone with his ability and creativity can open up and change games.
A massive mistake and waste of talent in my opinion.
ccshopland
Premier League
- 4 January 2011
Just had the craziest game ever....a 6-6 v QPR! I think the 'script tide' was in cos DJ Campbell scored 4 lol.
It was to be short - the most absolutely bonkers game of computer footy I think I've ever played - nuts with a capital KP! But some of the goals were electric.
It was to be short - the most absolutely bonkers game of computer footy I think I've ever played - nuts with a capital KP! But some of the goals were electric.
Keith Houchen
League 1
- 8 November 2006
Le Tissier certainly was in the England team. He played eight times, pretty badly on each occasion as I recall.
henrys hand
Premier League
- 2 September 2010
LOL, it seems he made most of the goals just because he got tired and didn't want to run anymore, very lazy and very efficient at the same time,
.That's exactly what I want, too, and I think this is the future of all sportsgames, to become as interesting as the real thing and therefore the full match-time will be necessary. I hope Rod convinces EA to work towards that goal, even if it is only as an additional simulation-option.
By the way, I was playing PES 2012 today after weeks with Fifa 12. As manual as possible and with gamespeed -1 and difficulty on top-player. Technically it was an awful experience, the animation, the ballphysics... a whole class or more worse than in Fifa 12. The only thing that I liked more was that the teammembers were better at offering options than in Fifa 12.
Pere Ubu
Championship
- 29 October 2002
I once met Terry Venables, when he was coaching England, and he was really nice (apart from his bad breath) until I asked why he wouldn't pick Matthew Le Tissier on a regular basis. I explained that I wasn't having a go at him, I just wanted to know why. He got a bit grumpy and muttered something about everyone having their own ideas about how to do things, and shortly afterwards made his excuses and went to talk to someone else.
Looking back, it seems pretty obvious why he didn't pick him, and also obvious why he couldn't be arsed to explain it to a cocky kid (it takes a little while).
A player as lazy as Le Tiss could do well in the Premier League of the 1990s where a.) his specific talents were pretty rare, and b.) defending was still pretty rudimentary. Opposing sides weren't used to dealing with that kind of skill on the ball, and still struggled to pick up forwards who would drop deep (a problem which dates back to the 1950s and the England team's total failure to deal with deep-lying centre-forward Nandor Hidegkuti in the massacres by Hungary home and away in 1953). As late as the mid-90s, English football was still fixated on flat 4-4-2 or flat 4-3-3 and defenders weren't used to players operating in the hole - in England the number 10 position barely existed, it was just the shirt given to the smaller CF playing off a target man rather than a position in its own right. Against English sides of the time, Le Tiss could fill his boots without breaking a sweat.
International football didn't work like that - most of the top international teams in the early-to-mid 90s were more flexible in their approach and could easily handle a lazy, slightly overweight guy strolling around in the trequartista position trying to roll the ball up his shin and hit a 30-yard volley. Le Tiss was a wonderful, wonderful player but he was never one of the greats when you compare him to Zidane or Platini or any of the classic number 10s - he wasn't so skilful that he could dictate a game at the highest level from a stationary position, and he never compensated for that with any of the traditional English attributes like power or dynamism. This is also why Cantona was devastating in the Premier League but never really shone in Europe... Cantona was an equally gifted and more physically powerful player than Le Tissier, and even he disappeared when facing sides who knew how to snuff out a deep-lying centre forward. In this sense Bergkamp was a better player, because he'd grown up in Dutch football and thus had a better understanding of systems - how to work within them and how to break them down - rather than French football (which in those days was played at a much slower pace) or English (where any kind of thought was distrusted and discouraged, and anyone capable of doing anything unexpected could usually catch out a defence at least once a game... which allowed for a kind of complacency among highly skilled players).
For all his faults, Venables was a smart manager and understood this very well. Le Tissier's place in the England side was filled by Teddy Sheringham, who was just as slow and slightly less naturally talented than Le Tiss, but a little more intelligent and a lot more mobile despite his lack of pace. He was much better suited to playing at a high tempo - which England sides must always do, to cover up for their innate lack of tactical nous. He was also a great header of the ball, which Matt never was, which was very important in a side which placed heavy emphasis on crosses. It made total sense to pick Sheringham over Le Tissier, and Le Tissier is not the sort of player you'd bring off the bench to change a game, he always needed the team to work around him. Either he played from the start or he didn't.
Compare Le Tissier to Gascoigne: Gascoigne was a player who could (and did) wreak havoc at the highest level because he mixed continental-style scheming and comfort on the ball with the kind of English virtues not usually found in "that kind" of player. At heart Gazza was the kind of driving, bustling, hard-running central midfielder England has always produced, and which has never really existed historically in other European leagues (Bryan Robson being the best example, Steven Gerrard being a modern example, but personally I think Gerrard is pathetically overrated for reasons I won't go into here). On top of that though, Gascoigne had the ball skills and the creative imagination of a traditional European / South American number 10. He could do all the fancy trequartista stuff - and at a higher pace than most defences were used to - but (partly because he grew up playing in a 4-4-2 system) he didn't simply wander around 30 yards from goal, he dropped much deeper than these players usually do and put in a lot more work. At his sadly short-lived peak, no one knew how to handle him, and that's why he got snapped up by an Italian team when Serie A was the boss league, which would never ever have happened to Le Tiss, even if he'd had the ambition to leave the South Coast, which he never did. In Italy (and most other places) they had players like Le Tissier already, old-fashioned deep-lying forwards, most of whom were quicker and more agile and ultimately more dangerous, even if they didn't produce so many of the jaw-dropping moments Le Tiss was capable of.
Hoddle picked him in an important game against Italy, which illustrates how a.) Hoddle was a less experienced coach than Venables, and b.) how limited Le Tissier was in international terms. Italy were the worst possible side he could have faced, exactly the kind of team who would make him disappear from the game, which he did. It's a bit of a myth that Le Tissier's international career never got off the ground because "England managers don't trust flair players". It's more that international managers don't trust players who are ill-suited to international football. And when people say "there'll never be another Matthew Le Tissier", they're quite right, but not necessarily for the reasons they have in mind. He was the last of the great English mavericks like Stan Bowles, Frank Worthington, Tony Currie etc etc, guys with great flair whose languid style was part of their charm... but none of those players ever shone at the absolute highest level precisely because they were too damn lazy and in a sense too limited. Much more fun to watch than most of today's footballers, yes, but as the game gets faster and tighter and better-organised there's just no room for them outside the lower leagues anymore, at least if you want to win matches. In a way it's a terrible shame, but it does make total sense.
Looking back, it seems pretty obvious why he didn't pick him, and also obvious why he couldn't be arsed to explain it to a cocky kid (it takes a little while).
A player as lazy as Le Tiss could do well in the Premier League of the 1990s where a.) his specific talents were pretty rare, and b.) defending was still pretty rudimentary. Opposing sides weren't used to dealing with that kind of skill on the ball, and still struggled to pick up forwards who would drop deep (a problem which dates back to the 1950s and the England team's total failure to deal with deep-lying centre-forward Nandor Hidegkuti in the massacres by Hungary home and away in 1953). As late as the mid-90s, English football was still fixated on flat 4-4-2 or flat 4-3-3 and defenders weren't used to players operating in the hole - in England the number 10 position barely existed, it was just the shirt given to the smaller CF playing off a target man rather than a position in its own right. Against English sides of the time, Le Tiss could fill his boots without breaking a sweat.
International football didn't work like that - most of the top international teams in the early-to-mid 90s were more flexible in their approach and could easily handle a lazy, slightly overweight guy strolling around in the trequartista position trying to roll the ball up his shin and hit a 30-yard volley. Le Tiss was a wonderful, wonderful player but he was never one of the greats when you compare him to Zidane or Platini or any of the classic number 10s - he wasn't so skilful that he could dictate a game at the highest level from a stationary position, and he never compensated for that with any of the traditional English attributes like power or dynamism. This is also why Cantona was devastating in the Premier League but never really shone in Europe... Cantona was an equally gifted and more physically powerful player than Le Tissier, and even he disappeared when facing sides who knew how to snuff out a deep-lying centre forward. In this sense Bergkamp was a better player, because he'd grown up in Dutch football and thus had a better understanding of systems - how to work within them and how to break them down - rather than French football (which in those days was played at a much slower pace) or English (where any kind of thought was distrusted and discouraged, and anyone capable of doing anything unexpected could usually catch out a defence at least once a game... which allowed for a kind of complacency among highly skilled players).
For all his faults, Venables was a smart manager and understood this very well. Le Tissier's place in the England side was filled by Teddy Sheringham, who was just as slow and slightly less naturally talented than Le Tiss, but a little more intelligent and a lot more mobile despite his lack of pace. He was much better suited to playing at a high tempo - which England sides must always do, to cover up for their innate lack of tactical nous. He was also a great header of the ball, which Matt never was, which was very important in a side which placed heavy emphasis on crosses. It made total sense to pick Sheringham over Le Tissier, and Le Tissier is not the sort of player you'd bring off the bench to change a game, he always needed the team to work around him. Either he played from the start or he didn't.
Compare Le Tissier to Gascoigne: Gascoigne was a player who could (and did) wreak havoc at the highest level because he mixed continental-style scheming and comfort on the ball with the kind of English virtues not usually found in "that kind" of player. At heart Gazza was the kind of driving, bustling, hard-running central midfielder England has always produced, and which has never really existed historically in other European leagues (Bryan Robson being the best example, Steven Gerrard being a modern example, but personally I think Gerrard is pathetically overrated for reasons I won't go into here). On top of that though, Gascoigne had the ball skills and the creative imagination of a traditional European / South American number 10. He could do all the fancy trequartista stuff - and at a higher pace than most defences were used to - but (partly because he grew up playing in a 4-4-2 system) he didn't simply wander around 30 yards from goal, he dropped much deeper than these players usually do and put in a lot more work. At his sadly short-lived peak, no one knew how to handle him, and that's why he got snapped up by an Italian team when Serie A was the boss league, which would never ever have happened to Le Tiss, even if he'd had the ambition to leave the South Coast, which he never did. In Italy (and most other places) they had players like Le Tissier already, old-fashioned deep-lying forwards, most of whom were quicker and more agile and ultimately more dangerous, even if they didn't produce so many of the jaw-dropping moments Le Tiss was capable of.
Hoddle picked him in an important game against Italy, which illustrates how a.) Hoddle was a less experienced coach than Venables, and b.) how limited Le Tissier was in international terms. Italy were the worst possible side he could have faced, exactly the kind of team who would make him disappear from the game, which he did. It's a bit of a myth that Le Tissier's international career never got off the ground because "England managers don't trust flair players". It's more that international managers don't trust players who are ill-suited to international football. And when people say "there'll never be another Matthew Le Tissier", they're quite right, but not necessarily for the reasons they have in mind. He was the last of the great English mavericks like Stan Bowles, Frank Worthington, Tony Currie etc etc, guys with great flair whose languid style was part of their charm... but none of those players ever shone at the absolute highest level precisely because they were too damn lazy and in a sense too limited. Much more fun to watch than most of today's footballers, yes, but as the game gets faster and tighter and better-organised there's just no room for them outside the lower leagues anymore, at least if you want to win matches. In a way it's a terrible shame, but it does make total sense.
ccshopland
Premier League
- 4 January 2011
Interesting read and take on things - apart from the part in bold which is a 'why I outta' sentence to a Reds fan if it wasn't past my bed time!
Pere Ubu
Championship
- 29 October 2002
Heh, I'm not saying Gerrard's shit or anything, I just think he's got problems with his mentality which detract from his game. People talk about him like he's some kind of Lothar Mattheus-type player, but despite his obvious talents he's never been world class because his decision-making is among the worst I've ever seen. He shoots when he should pass, passes long when he should go short, tackles when he shouldn't, goes forward when he shouldn't, all this kind of stuff - basically he doesn't seem to be able to read the game that's going on around him, he just lives in this little bubble where he's playing like a kid who reads too much Roy Of The Rovers. Cristiano Ronaldo is exactly the same (and it takes something away from his game too) but Ronaldo has such incredible skill that he can get by despite that. Also, he's a winger/forward, so it doesn't matter so much - Gerrard plays a central/attacking midfield role, he's supposed to be The Man in that team, and when The Man makes poor decisions all the time it affects the flow of the team as a whole. He played best when he had Mascherano and Alonso behind him to take care of the defensive duties and the steady passing, which freed him up to do all that hard running and long range shooting without having to worry about much else. But when you play him in central midfield and expect him to run the team, he can't do that. Unfortunately, like most England players he's an uncoachable egomaniac, so whatever you tell him as a manager he'll play like that regardless, spraying 40 yard passes out into touch and shooting over the bar when there's an unmarked player next to him.
Don't get me wrong, Gerrard's got loads of natural talent, enough to steamroller lowly Premier League sides, and he does raise his game for the big occasion - but England definitely play better as a team without him, and to be honest I think the same's true of Liverpool in the last few years.
Suuuuupertalk
International
- 17 August 2010
- Luton Town
Sorry to stay off topic but I really think that Gerrard is one of the most overrated players of this generation. He's been fantastic for Liverpool, yes, in the Premier League, but generally he's been extremely poor at international level.
He does have his obvious talents, but for all the hype this country has thrown at him during his career, I've always found it quite telling that none of the top teams in Europe, spanning Italy, Spain etc, have never really shown a real interest in signing him.
He does have his obvious talents, but for all the hype this country has thrown at him during his career, I've always found it quite telling that none of the top teams in Europe, spanning Italy, Spain etc, have never really shown a real interest in signing him.