PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

dannyfc2 said:
Gameplay Improvements

-Tone done the agility
-Bring back the distinction between agility and acceleration
-Bring back the Passers card
-Make passing differentials more pronounced
-More variation in crossing accuracy.
-Introduce a stat that influences tackling ability.
-Bring back the shot technique stat
-More random contextual errors (poor touches, miss-kicks) to further represent technical ability.
-More flexibility in playing styles than simply possession football.

If it wants to be a sim, then it needs to get the fundamentals right first.
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Couldn't agree more. :TU:PES is often lauded for getting the fundamentals right but your post shows how far away they are from doing so.

dannyfc2 said:
I don't even know why you're so concerned about commentary anyway, a comprehensive effort into capturing the crowd atmosphere audio would be infinitely more immerse then any high profile punditry.

It's not even that difficult to capture. All they need is microphones at a range of stadia of varying sizes, sampling enough variation in cheers/applause/dissent/jeers which can then be triggered by in-game events. Getting that essence of atmosphere is so much more important than unique team chants, which themselves sound horribly artificial on a loop in between silences.

All that's needed is an array of ambiances specific to the club's origin/stature, then have an assortment of muffled chanting that can be interpreted as support for which team you are using.
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Again, couldn't agree more. Whether it be PES or FIFA, after a couple of games I head straight to the audio menus and turn off the commentary. I'm just not interested in getting the televisual experience from a football game and commentary does nothing for me.

I'm more interested in the stadium atmosphere and a dynamic crowd that reacts to the on-pitch action. I want to feel as though I'm in the stadium watching the game, not at home watching it on TV.

Don't get me wrong, I love the commentary in the NBA2K games for instance. Those games are all about the TV experience and the commentary is done so naturally and in an informative manner that it adds a huge amount to the game. It's just that commentary in football games isn't a big deal to me. Recreating the cauldron-like atmosphere heard in football stadiums across the world, is.
 
i have to say that pes 2012 gives its best if played at slower pace, playing with a passing game always using hold up play, without rushing towards opposition players spamming X (or A) button, it can be frustrating and difficult to control at first, but once mastered this will hugely help with the defensive side of things
 
Ameppe said:
i have to say that pes 2012 gives its best if played at slower pace, playing with a passing game always using hold up play, without rushing towards opposition players spamming X (or A) button, it can be frustrating and difficult to control at first, but once mastered this will hugely help with the defensive side of things
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This.
 
Ameppe said:
i have to say that pes 2012 gives its best if played at slower pace, playing with a passing game always using hold up play, without rushing towards opposition players spamming X (or A) button, it can be frustrating and difficult to control at first, but once mastered this will hugely help with the defensive side of things
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This is the problem for me. The way the game is played by the CPU is very repetitive and one dimensional, which forces the player to adopt a repetitive, one-dimensional approach to counter it. I don't feel PES2012 offers me the freedom to play the game how I want, for example a direct passing or long ball game.

If I have to play a game a certain way, to me that's a problem.
 
Jamezinho said:
This is the problem for me. The way the game is played by the CPU is very repetitive and one dimensional, which forces the player to adopt a repetitive, one-dimensional approach to counter it. I don't feel PES2012 offers me the freedom to play the game how I want, for example a direct passing or long ball game.

If I have to play a game a certain way, to me that's a problem.
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That's my Preset 2 Tactic and relevant Formation, and it works a treat when chasing the game. 3 strikers peeling off the back of the oppostion defence with someone who can ping one over the top with overlapping runners is a great option.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
That's my Preset 2 Tactic and relevant Formation, and it works a treat when chasing the game. 3 strikers peeling off the back of the oppostion defence with someone who can ping one over the top with overlapping runners is a great option.
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But how can that work when the AI is always sitting so deep? They never come at you. Even when trailing by a single goal in the dying minutes, it's just ridiculously easy to keep hold of possession and let the game peter out. Possession football should be a lot harder than it is, even on zero passing assistance. There's no reason why the league leaders should decide to set-out not to concede against you, and be content with a goal-less draw.

This is the fundamental reason why, although offline can be enjoyable, it can be never as tense as online. The challenge seems to be that it is your provocative to score, and anything less than a win is a victory for the CPU.

Really is a shame they crippled MLO by somehow making it even more unbalanced this year. I miss the competitive environment that online games provide.

Further to add to my list;

-Remove the Speed Merchant card
-Greater balance in MLO, with less focus on assembling superstars
-A universal pass-assistance for online match-ups
 
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Jamezinho said:
This is the problem for me. The way the game is played by the CPU is very repetitive and one dimensional, which forces the player to adopt a repetitive, one-dimensional approach to counter it. I don't feel PES2012 offers me the freedom to play the game how I want, for example a direct passing or long ball game.

If I have to play a game a certain way, to me that's a problem.
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correct, playing pes 2012 against CPU lacks creativity, almost every action is build with the same concept, hold up, then counterattack
there is no midfield play at all, and it's a big problem for me, too

i was just pointing that you MUST play that way if you want to win, but i agree it's never good when a game forces you to play in one only way
 
Konami's main man speaks out now about Japanese devs

Kojima: Japanese developers lack global outlook, technological skills

The Japanese games industry needs to start making titles that appeal to a global audience rather than just focussing on niche games for domestic customers if it wants to get out of its rut, according to Konami's Hideo Kojima.
Speaking to Eurogamer during a round-table Q&A in Washington DC ahead of the Smithsonian's Art of Video Games exhibition, the Metal Gear Solid creator offered his response to Keiji Inafune's GDC rant about the sorry state of the Japanese industry.
"I think the problem really is more about where people are looking and who they're targeting," said Kojima.
"A lot of creators are just focused on Japan and the Japanese market and aren't really aware of what people around the world want."
He went on to explain that he believes there are three elements that developers need to get right in order to have a global hit: "technology, gameplay and world view."
Kojima argued that Japan is failing to keep up in all three areas.
"Regarding technology, I think in Japan there are less people going abroad, and maybe less people going to, say, M.I.T. and being at the cutting edge of things. From a technology standpoint, I think Japan is lagging behind a bit.
He suggested that that's a problem that can be easily remedied, but the other two issues are potentially more serious.
"The bigger problem is how do you use that technology to create something? When it comes to gameplay, unfortunately a lot of Japanese creators don't really like creating a free experience. Those types of games aren't being made in Japan.
"Regarding world view," he continued, "game creators now are creating games based on the culture they know, targeted at Japan and Japanese cultures. So they set it in places like Shibuya or Shinjuku or somewhere else in Tokyo. And it's not something that appeals to people outside of Japan.
"Because Japan doesn't look outside of it's borders then technologies don't come, creating this vicious cycle."
If developers took a more global view, Kojima argued, they might find it easier to secure bigger budgets.
"The Japanese games industry has fallen to a point where Japanese movies were at as well - these small indie movies set within Japan with a Japanese story done on a low budget. Because the scale is so small we can't get the budget to make it succeed on a global level.
"In contrast to that, most Western studios approach things from more of a Hollywood standpoint where they're looking at making their games a very global success and looking at how they can sell them in various markets.
"From the very beginning they have those goals and are able to get the proper budget and commit the proper technology to it."
Kojima did offer some cause for optimism, however.
"I think that it's still not over. Japan does have the ability to recover from this and get back up to a competitive level, technologically and in other ways.
"I don't want to break this down to a thing where it's Japanese games versus non Japanese games. The key is it has to be a global game, it has to be something made for everybody. I want to get rid of all those barriers."
He offered up his own studio as an example of a Japanese developer taking a more global view of the industry.
"You can tell from my generation that I've been influenced by Star Trek, so when I think of my studio I think it as the Starship Enterprise. The Enterprise had people from all races - even Vulcans! I want my studio to be like that.
"This is my Enterprise. It just happens that the captain is Japanese and the ship was manufactured by Konami, but it's a multi-cultural staff."
Last month, the studio announced it was looking to recruit Western developers to work on the Metal Gear Solid series.
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Times are changing at Konami it seems which can only be a good thing for us PES fans.
 
radha1 said:
you have inadvertantly revealed a fundamental problem with the gameplay:

So when you play effective, diligent defense, protecting space and cutting off passing lanes, the cpu will often just hoof the ball out of play because they have no options...and yet, they did have an option. They could have passed it backwards to the CBs and started their offensive move again (they did this on 2011) or they could have passed it all the way back to the GK to have him sweep it to the other side or they could have switched sides directly. But they don't do that because it its not in the cpu gameplay.

Any one who has watched ten minutes of football understands this option of last resort. The fact that the cpu rarely does this produces route 1 football, directly forward, incredibly repetitive, absurd, childish gameplay with disproportionate possession ratios.

Good day!
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I agree with your thoughts. They definitely need to look at how the AI is programmed for when you block off their options. They should try risky passes or maybe speculative long balls into space OR play it backwards/sideways.

By the way - correct me if I'm mistaken, but was it you that was posting paragraphs upon paragraphs of how people should defend on this game and how deep and tactical it was. I apologise if it wasn't but someone did over the last couple of weeks...thought it might have been your user name.
 
dannyfc2 said:
But how can that work when the AI is always sitting so deep? They never come at you. Even when trailing by a single goal in the dying minutes, it's just ridiculously easy to keep hold of possession and let the game peter out. Possession football should be a lot harder than it is, even on zero passing assistance. There's no reason why the league leaders should decide to set-out not to concede against you, and be content with a goal-less draw.
...
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Sorry but I disagree Danny. You said they "never" come at you? I've had a few games of late where I'm down 2 or 3 nil after 25 minutes and I've barely been out of my half!! The one I remember most, had their tactics set to quick counter and had 3 men up front. I don't deny there are times when some teams get behind the ball but I can't agree that they "never" come at you.

If I try to pass the ball around the back to kill time, the AI comes at me - in that regard, they're definitely less passive than FIFA, where you can basically pass the ball around and they don't come near you for 5 minutes.
 
If teammates never come at you just tweak teamstyle.

You will see teammates coming at you especially if you set player support to offensive and if you put support range to close.

I also use a 4-2-3-1 with players positioned not to far from each other
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
I agree with your thoughts. They definitely need to look at how the AI is programmed for when you block off their options. They should try risky passes or maybe speculative long balls into space OR play it backwards/sideways.

By the way - correct me if I'm mistaken, but was it you that was posting paragraphs upon paragraphs of how people should defend on this game and how deep and tactical it was. I apologise if it wasn't but someone did over the last couple of weeks...thought it might have been your user name.
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It was me. Thank you for remembering. I appreciate also the passive aggression of your question. You're sweet.

Seriously, i'm just kidding. The statement i just made was passive aggressive.

I think my posts on defense are still credible, if you are willing to play a game that is childishly direct. I've recently decided that i'm not up for it. My problem, i admit, is that the game bores me, which hasn't happened before with any iteration. And the part that is boring is playing defense. All my advice on playing defense led me to a supreme and unwitting end. I hereby await next year...

Good day!
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
I agree with your thoughts. They definitely need to look at how the AI is programmed for when you block off their options. They should try risky passes or maybe speculative long balls into space OR play it backwards/sideways.

By the way - correct me if I'm mistaken, but was it you that was posting paragraphs upon paragraphs of how people should defend on this game and how deep and tactical it was. I apologise if it wasn't but someone did over the last couple of weeks...thought it might have been your user name.
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This creased me lol
 
I really do apologize if i'm coming off like some sort of a smart ass. I don't mean it. I think it's congenital or something--my daddy was the same way....anyway, i have gone back to play pes 2012 a few times in the past week. I've had some fun moments but its just not sustainable for me. I wish it was. I've tried everything. All the difficulty levels, all the modes, edited tactics and formations. Nothing makes me want to play this game as much as i played previous iterations and thats kind of killing me. Maybe its just personal. I want to overlook the cpu's directness, the absurd dribbling, the efficient crosses, the crazy running, the empty midfield. But i just cant do it, but i wish i could. I wrote those posts about pressure and defense and whatever because i cared and wanted to be part of the conversation that led to making good gameplay out of what turns out to be playground running around. I'm at wits end, i guess.
 
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radha1 said:
I really do apologize if i'm coming off like some sort of a smart ass. I don't mean it. I think it's congenital or something--my daddy was the same way....anyway, i have gone back to play pes 2012 a few times in the past week. I've had some fun moments but its just not sustainable for me. I wish it was. I've tried everything. All the difficulty levels, all the modes, edited tactics and formations. Nothing makes me want to play this game as much as i played previous iterations and thats kind of killing me. Maybe its just personal. I want to overlook the cpu's directness, the absurd dribbling, the efficient crosses, the crazy running, the empty midfield. But i just cant do it, but i wish i could. I wrote those posts about pressure and defense and whatever because i cared and wanted to be part of the conversation that led to making good gameplay out of what turns out to be playground running around. I'm at wits end, i guess.
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For what it's worth Radha I do understand your frustrations.

Whilst I see that in there somewhere is a very good game, it is virtually impossible to make this into something of a simulation.

What PES 2012 is at its heart, is a really good arcade end to end fest, meant to played at default gamespeed and literally as fast as possible, with attack and then counter attack. IF PLAYED LIKE THIS, then the game is indeed a 'fun game'.

But I've wasted too many hours, too many tweaks and patch efforts in trying to get it to resemble anything else.

There are tweaks that TRY and slow down the CPU or at least put your players in positions that will make the CPU think twice about bombing forward on a dribbling onslaught, but the truth of the matter is that the CPU isn't programmed well enough to pass the ball around, that is why it would rather boot the ball or be tackled when on the touch lines, and then just boot the ball high into the air if it has no options in the final third - it's as if passing the ball around is a complete and utter no-no for the CPU. Add to the fact that there is no acceleration stat build into the players, and that player response on turns and body alterations is almost non existent and what you have is 20 Messi's on the pitch, and a game designed for fast counter attack dribbling.

Mixed in with this (for the console unmodded) at least, the shitty graphics, the unbelievable scripting at the higher levels, and a broken shooting mechanism designed to hide dodgy keepers, and you've kind of got a bit of a mess on your hands. Through balls still going through players, CPU lofted through balls displacing your LB/RBs, cross, then the CPU moves your CB, for the dreaded CPU headed goal, etc etc.

Laser guided crosses, CPU player positioning in defence at its best that you simply HAVE to move the ball in the final third at a 100mph. A possession game deep in their half only leads to misery and repetition I'm afraid, as the game doesn't take into consideration the energy sapping effects of the CPU defending for all match, and there isn't some kind of build in concentration level stat that a defender eventually will make a defensive mistake if solely defending in banks of four all game. Then the CPU clears ALL THE TIME to it's strikers to set up a counter attack, when in effect the attacking side would have realistically squashed the game by then making it practically impossible for the CPU defensive team to 'just escape' its final third.

So all you do is commit more men into your attack, leaving it easier for the CPU to magically find its men on the counter, where, yes you've guessed it, Emile Heskey dribbles past your defenders, finds a speed burst and buries one past an ailing keeper (who's on red arrow BTW).

Sound familiar.....
 
I'm done, KONAMI seem to have no idea how to do games these days. Since PES 6, the game changed so much and so often that the game looks like some pile of dirt that is being cleaned every year but to a certain extend, at the end it is still a pile of dirt.
PES 2012 has so many broken features that it makes me want to commit suicide while playing the game. The first demo of the game gave me hope for the final version, but KONAMI did it again and the game is quite rubbish. I had over 150 games on the first demo and now when the game will hit 6 months after release I don't even have a 100 games...
I see no light at the end of the tunnel for PES in this generation of consoles. FIFA seems so far ahead from PES that the only thing that holds FIFA from being complete game is the damn rubbish AI that FIFA has.
So much time has passed and Pro Evo still struggles for every single catch of breath, if KONAMI doesn't do something fast and soon, the game will drown completely....
 
Drama queen. How exactly is the latest patch worse than the demo?

Only versions I couldn't stand were v1.01 and v1.02.
 
dannyfc2 said:
Drama queen. How exactly is the latest patch worse than the demo?

Only versions I couldn't stand were v1.01 and v1.02.
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Well, you obviously have no clue what you're talking about, the shooting has gone from acceptable to broken beyond repair. The first demo of PES 2012 gave the game the best possible representation of the final product, but we all know what happened with the second demo and the final game itself... also with the following safety boat patches.
If you think that the game is balanced and it is representation of football, than you're completely delusional.
PES 2012 at this stage feels so heavily scripted that you can't feel any kind of freedom whatsoever. Shooting, passing, tackling, etc. are scripted beyond repair.
The game feels dated in terms of animation and general gameplay. The animations are horrible, just horrible, the online system is nowhere near the standards for a next gen game.
I'm in complete pain here, I've to play Fifa in order to satisfy my football video game needs, how pathetic is that... Fifa...
5 years have passed guys, 5 years and Pro Evo is still nowhere on the map.
On PC, there are on average 20k players online on the weeknights and 30k+ on the weekend, Pro Evo can't bring together so many players at once for all 5 yaars on the PC, how pathetic is that.

I know that now many of you will not agree with me, because you're all Pro Evo fans, but as such myself lets face it, the complete package of Pro Evo is quite pitiful.

I'm angry, because I can't stand this anymore. EA seems to have no intentions whatsoever into making FIFA a sim, there is just no balance in the game, the AI is so utterly retarded that you see same goals 85% of the time, like a deja vu that never ends.

I want to see some other studio that will try to make a proper football sim for the next generation of consoles, so that EA will change their retarded politics to not change the gameplay, because people are enjoying it... and make the game a sim.
It's obvious that KONAMI are clueless and can't deliver anything to the table...
 
Flaw3d Genius said:
Have you not played the demo's? The 3 main points for me would be...

The ball is more free
The AI is vastly superior
The shooting is vastly superior

1.00 was still not as good as the demo's but it's the closest by far.
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Shooting, in the first demo especially, was horrendous. I remember being horrified over the lack of control, even tho that still lingers in the final version, it's infinitely better than it was.

The AI was too relentless in it's over laps in the early versions, I like to see movement but not endless forward runs at every opportunity. In terms of individuality it was also a lot less refined, to the point of being almost game-breaking for me (see my comments in September about dribbling with Gattuso).

The game just felt looser and more hectic. 1.01 and 1.02 swung too far the opposite direction making it a droll condensed borefest, 1.03 has the best balance in terms of challenge and enjoyment.

ElvisSs said:
Well, you obviously have no clue what you're talking about, the shooting has gone from acceptable to broken beyond repair. The first demo of PES 2012 gave the game the best possible representation of the final product, but we all know what happened with the second demo and the final game itself... also with the following safety boat patches.
If you think that the game is balanced and it is representation of football, than you're completely delusional.
PES 2012 at this stage feels so heavily scripted that you can't feel any kind of freedom whatsoever. Shooting, passing, tackling, etc. are scripted beyond repair.
The game feels dated in terms of animation and general gameplay. The animations are horrible, just horrible, the online system is nowhere near the standards for a next gen game.
I'm in complete pain here, I've to play Fifa in order to satisfy my football video game needs, how pathetic is that... Fifa...
5 years have passed guys, 5 years and Pro Evo is still nowhere on the map.
On PC, there are on average 20k players online on the weeknights and 30k+ on the weekend, Pro Evo can't bring together so many players at once for all 5 yaars on the PC, how pathetic is that.

I know that now many of you will not agree with me, because you're all Pro Evo fans, but as such myself lets face it, the complete package of Pro Evo is quite pitiful.

I'm angry, because I can't stand this anymore. EA seems to have no intentions whatsoever into making FIFA a sim, there is just no balance in the game, the AI is so utterly retarded that you see same goals 85% of the time, like a deja vu that never ends.

I want to see some other studio that will try to make a proper football sim for the next generation of consoles, so that EA will change their retarded politics to not change the gameplay, because people are enjoying it... and make the game a sim.
It's obvious that KONAMI are clueless and can't deliver anything to the table...
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I'm not a massive fan of PES 2012, I've probably only played it about a fifth as much as PES 2011. I'm not happy with the direction Konami have taken at all, so can sympathise with frustration with the game.

That said, I don't believe any earlier version (such as the demos) was better than the one we have at the moment.

In terms of scripting, I think it's blown massively out of proportion on here, born out of frustration following unsavory results. The CPU has a stats boost to give it an advantage, no question. But scripted gaming patterns that influence where deflections fall or players missing easy chances? No, sorry, don't believe it.
 
dannyfc2 said:
Shooting, in the first demo especially, was horrendous. I remember being horrified over the lack of control, even tho that still lingers in the final version, it's infinitely better than it was.

The AI was too relentless in it's over laps in the early versions, I like to see movement but not endless forward runs at every opportunity. In terms of individuality it was also a lot less refined, to the point of being almost game-breaking for me (see my comments in September about dribbling with Gattuso).

The game just felt looser and more hectic. 1.01 and 1.02 swung too far the opposite direction making it a droll condensed borefest, 1.03 has the best balance in terms of challenge and enjoyment.


.
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You didnt like 1.00 either?
 
I think v1.00 is decent, just far too open and not as detailed as v1.03. CPU wasn't a challenge and keepers were absolutely diabolical.

When v1.01 and v1.02 were out, I reverted back to v1.00 until i became bored of it
 
I couldn't go back to how keepers were before. Now, they are very good in comparison. I didn't mind the shooting early on but I think they've improved it now and I've hardly seen any really tame shots.
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
I couldn't go back to how keepers were before. Now, they are very good in comparison. I didn't mind the shooting early on but I think they've improved it now and I've hardly seen any really tame shots.
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The reason why the keepers are better is purely down to the CPU taking over your shots and aiming in the general direction of the keeper alot of the times. Even the WENB guys who done the podcast said as much.
 
Ok let me throw this out there. I've seen people complain about not wanting to setup their tactics based on what the whiteboard says pre-match because they want to impose their own gamestyle and not be told how to play. Last night I attended an Asian Champion's League game where the team I follow, Adelaide United, beat the highly fancied Japanese side Gamba Osaka 2-0. Adelaide also won their first match away 2-1 to Bunyodkor, champions of Uzbekhistan.

To put things in perspective, Adelaide are sitting 2nd bottom in the domestic league with 1 game to go in the season. On the other hand, the current Australian champions, Brisbane, who are sitting 2nd on the ladder this year, lost their first champion's league game and drew their 2nd game.

What's the point you may ask? Well Adelaide's success has come on the back of changing their usual possession gameplan to a more counterattacking style. Brisbane on the other hand are trying to play their usual possession game (something similar to Barcelona).

So the poor team that adapts their gamestyle to suit the opposition has vastly outperformed the better team who ignores the opposition tactics at all costs and hits a brick wall, figuratively speaking. Just look at how many different approaches Real Madrid have taken against Barcelona, with differing outcomes!

I know it's not exactly the same on Pro Evo, but I do think there is a lot to be learned from tweaking the tactics to take on differing gamestyles/opponents. Doesn't mean you have to do what they tell you - just that you have to be aware of their strengths and weaknesses and be suitably prepared to exploit them.
 
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