PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

yeh well I had never ever played PES 2012 on 2 player.

I had 2 weeks and played offline, master league and doen a champions league plus freindlies etc....I just found it kinda boring and frustarting and enjoyed fifa 12 more so I returned PEs 2012.

And as you say above hwen you play fifa 12 for long time then go back to pes 2012. Pes feels so more organic and dynamic, it does look a bit crappy and silly animations etc..but the way the game plays is so open especially for 2 human players versus matches.

For me though I dont think the game was that great against CPU I found the matches also lacked atmosphere compared to fifa...maybe due to grpahics, presnetation and sound effects etc? Im not sure.

All I can say is after playing pes 2012 on 2 player last night Im thinking its a great game. We had all kinda goals and chances and yeh all kinda moves work or dont work. Its jus random.

Often on FIFA I feelI am doing same moves, same things over and over. However fifa must be doing something right as I still play it a lot. I think I just like the Career mode. BUt FIFA does feel to fixed overall, shotting, passing,movement, formations etc...etc..

PES defiantely feels more open and real in some ways.

Im not sure how to explain it all. At end of day I dont thnink either are bad games though. But for me I can only play 1 as I only have time for 1 in terms of mastering it and doing careers/master league. I chose FIFA but I think PES can still be fun? especially 2 player?
 
If you really want to appreciate 2012, go back to the first next-gen game; PES 6. Then work your way up to PES 2009. Play lots on every version, not just 1 game, so you can experience almost everything in every one of them. Then after you're done with PES 2009, jump straight to 2012, and feel the massive difference. You will truly appreciate what Konami have done.

I did that myself, and the impression was massive. I did find 2009's overall pace to be very good btw, compared to 2012's hectic-ness. I always go either -1 or -2.

Apart from a few "loose" animations, and a couple gameplay experiences I had on my preview code that were taken out, I think the game is pretty impressive. It feels so organic and real.
 
Maybe ill give pes 2012 another chance. Im kinda addicted to FIFA 12 but I often feel that there is something not right about it and too many games end up playing out very similar and I score a lot of similar goals. And stuff is to on rails.

However, it must still have a lot of good points if I wanna keep playing it.

My imagination or not but the player models also seem much bigger in FIFA or maybe just the camera angle but I swear they look a lot bigger, on pes they are much smaller and less detailed?
 
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Vieirinha said:
Please can u tell me what happened to the pc/hating/pc lack of fifa mocking/ ROB? What did u do to him? :OOOH:
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I don't and never did have a problem with PC gaming...

It was the typical elitist/god complex of the PC gaming crowd that I found irritating - constantly boasting about how powerful the machines are and completely dismissing console gaming as casual/inferior. The "mocking" was just because I found it quite entertaining how these arrogant tards got shafted with inferior releases of FIFA.

My new laptop was purely to replace my broken old one, I found a fairly well specced one for a good price, it's just a bonus really that it runs games, especially as I left my Xbox 360 at home when I came to uni :).
 
This could probably go in the Football Life thread but I thought I'd post it here for now. Started my 2nd season in Master League and a few things clicked for me. I was really concentrating on watching how my AI controlled teammates move off the ball - in defence particularly. If you switch at the right times and pressure just enough with your controlled player or by the AI controlled players, you can really get the CPU to move the ball around with more patience (if they're set up to play the ball).

I also found that (and this probably goes for a few things in PES) it can play as if you're out on the field playing. When I was blocking shots or playing with great organisation, it felt just as rewarding as keeping your shape well out on the field.

I've set up the formation and tactics that are working well for me (I'm 4th after 7 games) but there's still a couple of teams who beat me and I really struggled to deal with their high pressure game. Man marking didn't help but dropping my defensive line deeper gave me some relief.

Also noticed with my settings that I was getting some nice touchline hugging positions and runs from the wingers :)

p.s. I've probably noticed 2 instances of non-responsive button presses (both in the same game) where it looked a bit suspicious :( But some of the goalkeeping I've seen has been brilliant.
 
Im in my 11th Season of ML - and this game plays so much better with better plays, sounds obvious really but starting a ML with the defaults, really shows the faults with the game.
Once youve crafted a decent team and upped teamwork, and other stats, it can play really nicely.
Im at the point now where 90% of PES12 sessions are really enjoyable with few issues.
Just a shame it takes over 200hrs of play time to get to that level to enjoy the game properly.
 
I bought my PS3 with great, great anticipation. I looked forward to finally ditching the 'old PC', and just sitting back, chilling with one gaming area in mind with just a click of a button. I even bought a 50" plasma to accompany it.

Needless to say, the PS3 is now more or less a dust gatherer or a DVD media streamer for the missus and the kids, both footy titles this year have been a complete waste of time. What's even more galling is that the demo's looked and played superb (for PES).

So..I'm back where I started my gaming career; on the PC, modding, tweaking, etc etc. I won't be stung again this year, unless I get rave reviews from almost every man and his dog, literally three months after release FIFA and KONAMI can kiss my ass. It just isn't good enough. The amount of complete obvious scripting bullshit this year makes me so angry. Combined with the fact that KONAMI release a game with shittier graphics than the previous year, arguably worse animations and ball physics and the horrid f'kin blur.

I've learned my lesson the hard way, shelling £110 quid this year. It won't happen again.
 
Vieirinha said:
I guess console gamers are shafted with inferior version of pes without gameplay code patches... :APPLAUD: Nah Im just joking.;)
But anyway none can say what platform is better or whatever. Console users have their arcade simplicity. While PC users overtweak stuff and complicate things still making gameplay much better. Is it worth it? For me yeah!!! But for others not
.
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Really ? :CONFUSE:

I see this as the other way around. It's the PC users that get the 'arcade' version as they look to make the game easier and more 'PES 6' like because they struggle to both cope and learn how the game is supposed to be played. At least that's how I see it anyway.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
Really ? :CONFUSE:

I see this as the other way around. It's the PC users that get the 'arcade' version as they look to make the game easier and more 'PES 6' like because they struggle to both cope and learn how the game is supposed to be played. At least that's how I see it anyway.
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This is where me opinion and yours differs...again lol..

The problem with the PC brigade is not that they want to make the game easier, far from it. They want to make the game realistic.

For instance, are you telling me (on the PS3) that every player should have the dribbling, Cruyff-like, ghosting past defenders dribbling ability? Are you saying that the user should put up with the scripted lofted winged through ball, cross and headed goal which the CPU makes your CB run away from the ball? Should we put up with terrible animations, inconsistent ball physics, shooting that goes one way when aimed another? Terrible keepers? Badly displayed graphics and blurred imagery?

I could go on....

The fact is, on the PC these issues can be ironed out. What we want on the PC is balance (like an old PES) between attack and defence, individuality and CPU blatant scripting to be as minimal as possible. Now if this makes Van Persie better or any of the top players better and makes worse players worse then I'm all for it; with regards to the CPU AND the human. If it makes shots go the direction they should then I'm all for it. If it makes the pitch textures and stadia realistic and gets the CPU to pass the f'kin thing about once in a while then again, I'm all for it.

The PS3 game is fun if played in a certain way. But I don't want to have to bend to the games will. I want to play football the way I want to play football and I want the CPU to be on an even keel. Now that's not to say I want the CPU dumbed down; quite the contrary. On the PC for example I'm seeing the CPU score some cracking passing worked goals, long rangers etc etc, but what I don't want is the same game over and over where Emile Bastard Heskey is like Pele!?! That's just not football.

I've even gone back to PES 6 today, had one game, and boy did it feel good. You had players (like defenders who's responsiveness and touch isn't great) mis-controlling the ball, having several touches to get it under control, and then someone like Gerrard who you just feel you can do anything with, hold people off, hit long passes etc etc. The passing physics, shooting, animations...man, they're ALL better on PES6!

On top on that Arsenal, who I played, heaven forbid, actually passed the football around, laterally, backwards. Not everyone picked up the ball and ran with it like David Ginola!

This is what the PC brigade are trying to get at. We're trying to raise player individuality, raise the CPU passing the ball about and possession, make the game tougher because the CPU will keep more of the ball, and get CPU players to respect the stats and not rely on cheap scripting.

Now, if people are happy with the PS3 version then that's just great. But the PC is a viable option to those that aren't happy with some aspects of the PS3 version.
 
I read Ern Dog's comments on the PC modded version, and to be honest, what he wrote was exactly what I have previously perceived. And they do make the game easier, no matter which way you look at it.

Konami are the masters here in my book, their track record speaks for itself. They know what they are doing, and I put my trust in them. If it means that I have to go through hours and hours of frustration before it finally clicks for me, then so be it. That's what I want. As long as the end product is there for me to enjoy when I finally begin to understand their philosophy, then I'm happy. And I am.

If the modders want to create their own football game from scratch, I'll have a look at it. Until then, I'll stick with the professionals. And this isnt a dig at the modders, they do a great a job for a lot of people, it's just not my bag.

I think your own back and forth crusade to find the 'Holy Grail' is testament enough to the fact it's better just to stick with it and learn.

I've never been as happy with any PES as I am right now. Offline is better than anything I've ever experienced in my life. And all this without the need to have any of the gameplay modded. So go figure.
 
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Jim I totally respect your opinion..BUT..

I CANNOT have Emile Heskey dribbling like Maradona. I CANNOT put up with indefensible scripted moves for which the CPU moves your players. I CANNOT put up with graphics that are worse than two years ago, and lost animations that were better in the past.

And these 'experts' Jim have someone like Andy Carroll as one of the world's best, Luis Suarez as pretty average, Pepe Reina can't kick the ball past the halfway line and gives Doni better stats than him.

I do agree on the other hand that it's better to stick with one or the other; but I have found near enough all the depth in both console and PC version. I have literally played (and potched) with this version to death.

I guess what I want is to be able to play the game on the console, in ease and comfort, but with the a few things tweaked here and there.

But it's just the little things are just plain niggling me now. I've always been gameplay first and foremost, but just the way the players receive the ball, turn and twist, ball physics, blurred imagery, crap night textures, balloon football, super AI dribbling...it just all adds up in the end, and even the animations are really starting to piss me off on the console.

Enough moaning, I'll leave you to you Football Life now Jim...
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
I read Ern Dog's comments on the PC modded version, and to be honest, what he wrote was exactly what I have previously perceived. And they do make the game easier, no matter which way you look at it.

Konami are the masters here in my book, their track record speaks for itself. They know what they are doing, and I put my trust in them. If it means that I have to go through hours and hours of frustration before it finally clicks for me, then so be it. That's what I want. As long as the end product is there for me to enjoy when I finally begin to understand their philosophy, then I'm happy. And I am.

If the modders want to create their own football game from scratch, I'll have a look at it. Until then, I'll stick with the professionals. And this isnt a dig at the modders, they do a great a job for a lot of people, it's just not my bag.

I think your own back and forth crusade to find the 'Holy Grail' is testament enough to the fact it's better just to stick with it and learn.

I've never been as happy with any PES as I am right now. Offline is better than anything I've ever experienced in my life. And all this without the need to have any of the gameplay modded. So go figure.
Click to expand...

Their track record since the move to the new generation is pretty awful. That's why they went from being the biggest football game out there to selling less than a quarter of what FIFA does. It’s no good producing a game that needs to played for half a year for the penny to drop with a handful of die-hards, that won’t resurrect the games success and by that I don’t mean produce something with no depth. I respect you Jimmy, but I don’t think there is much that Konami could do that you wouldn’t manage to convince yourself was right.

My files have always made the game more difficult and challenging. Before them I would get the game, play the master league and within 2 seasons I had won everything and would then go seasons without defeat and win each competition.

Last year's game wasn't as hard as this years out of the box, but after editing the game play I was still playing it when the new one come out and struggling to win the master league with the Valencia team I had built up, some years I would win it and it would feel like an achievement, other I wouldn’t, but it was always great trying and I never won that and the champions league in the same season.

The challenging game play that you love this year, I have been putting into the game since the PS2 days.

In my current master league I am Milan, who are one of the best teams. On un-modded version of the game I would win every game with them on Super Star. Using mine, on Professional, I am facing the sack. This is because every team is made difficult to beat and can score against you even if your using the best teams, as this is football. Football isn't people not using the best teams as games against smaller clubs and dull with the other team penned into their half.

You enjoy the game using teams like Boro as you want a challenge, what I do is give this level of challenge for all teams. I could give so many instances where certain players have far more accurate stats using my files than the default konami ones as they do not really much about smaller teams, even in the premier league, but it's easier to point out that in the default game all players at small clubs are given inferior physical stats than those at big clubs . Think about that, it makes no sense. Someone that plays in Holland, cannot run as fast as someone who plays for Man Utd, someone in the Turkish league cannot be as strong as someone at Barca and someone who is banging in goals all over the place who plays for a team outside the top four in England, cannot shoot as well as one of their strikers.

If you look at fantasy football player lists for leagues, the price of players is accurate, in that players who aren’t famous that have skills for creating goals and scoring them no matter which team they play for are expensive. These players who aren’t at big teams in PES simply aren’t given decent stats. I give them the stats they should have and reduce plays like Ronaldo and Messi so that they don’t unrealistically un-balance the game
 
Chimps-with-quiffs said:
Their track record since the move to the new generation is pretty awful. That's why they went from being the biggest football game out there to selling less than a quarter of what FIFA does. It’s no good producing a game that needs to played for half a year for the penny to drop with a handful of die-hards, that won’t resurrect the games success and by that I don’t mean produce something with no depth. I respect you Jimmy, but I don’t think there is much that Konami could do that you wouldn’t manage to convince yourself was right.

My files have always made the game more difficult and challenging. Before them I would get the game, play the master league and within 2 seasons I had won everything and would then go seasons without defeat and win each competition.

Last year's game wasn't as hard as this years out of the box, but after editing the game play I was still playing it when the new one come out and struggling to win the master league with the Valencia team I had built up, some years I would win it and it would feel like an achievement, other I wouldn’t, but it was always great trying and I never won that and the champions league in the same season.

The challenging game play that you love this year, I have been putting into the game since the PS2 days.

In my current master league I am Milan, who are one of the best teams. On un-modded version of the game I would win every game with them on Super Star. Using mine, on Professional, I am facing the sack. This is because every team is made difficult to beat and can score against you even if your using the best teams, as this is football. Football isn't people not using the best teams as games against smaller clubs and dull with the other team penned into their half.

You enjoy the game using teams like Boro as you want a challenge, what I do is give this level of challenge for all teams. I could give so many instances where certain players have far more accurate stats using my files than the default konami ones as they do not really much about smaller teams, even in the premier league, but it's easier to point out that in the default game all players at small clubs are given inferior physical stats than those at big clubs . Think about that, it makes no sense. Someone that plays in Holland, cannot run as fast as someone who plays for Man Utd, someone in the Turkish league cannot be as strong as someone at Barca and someone who is banging in goals all over the place who plays for a team outside the top four in England, cannot shoot as well as one of their strikers.

If you look at fantasy football player lists for leagues, the price of players is accurate, in that players who aren’t famous that have skills for creating goals and scoring them no matter which team they play for are expensive. These players who aren’t at big teams in PES simply aren’t given decent stats. I give them the stats they should have and reduce plays like Ronaldo and Messi so that they don’t unrealistically un-balance the game
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You make a great case Chimps, and I do respect all the hard work you put in to your files. They are just not for me personally, but I know there are a lot of people out there that use these gameplay tweaked files and really enjoy them. Again, it's just not for me. If I was in anyway unhappy with what I was playing 'out of the box', then maybe I'd look at something else. But the bottom-line is, that I'm very happy, and thats it.

As for Konami's track record being awful on next-gen, I disagree, massively. I take no notice of sales figures, they mean fuck all to me. If they did, I'd be playing Fifa. The proof of the pudding will always be how I find the games, and for me, I couldnt play another old-gen PES, it's light years away from what we have now. In my opinion.
 
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Chimps-with-quiffs said:
Their track record since the move to the new generation is pretty awful. That's why they went from being the biggest football game out there to selling less than a quarter of what FIFA does. It’s no good producing a game that needs to played for half a year for the penny to drop with a handful of die-hards, that won’t resurrect the games success and by that I don’t mean produce something with no depth. I respect you Jimmy, but I don’t think there is much that Konami could do that you wouldn’t manage to convince yourself was right.

My files have always made the game more difficult and challenging. Before them I would get the game, play the master league and within 2 seasons I had won everything and would then go seasons without defeat and win each competition.

Last year's game wasn't as hard as this years out of the box, but after editing the game play I was still playing it when the new one come out and struggling to win the master league with the Valencia team I had built up, some years I would win it and it would feel like an achievement, other I wouldn’t, but it was always great trying and I never won that and the champions league in the same season.

The challenging game play that you love this year, I have been putting into the game since the PS2 days.

In my current master league I am Milan, who are one of the best teams. On un-modded version of the game I would win every game with them on Super Star. Using mine, on Professional, I am facing the sack. This is because every team is made difficult to beat and can score against you even if your using the best teams, as this is football. Football isn't people not using the best teams as games against smaller clubs and dull with the other team penned into their half.

You enjoy the game using teams like Boro as you want a challenge, what I do is give this level of challenge for all teams. I could give so many instances where certain players have far more accurate stats using my files than the default konami ones as they do not really much about smaller teams, even in the premier league, but it's easier to point out that in the default game all players at small clubs are given inferior physical stats than those at big clubs . Think about that, it makes no sense. Someone that plays in Holland, cannot run as fast as someone who plays for Man Utd, someone in the Turkish league cannot be as strong as someone at Barca and someone who is banging in goals all over the place who plays for a team outside the top four in England, cannot shoot as well as one of their strikers.

If you look at fantasy football player lists for leagues, the price of players is accurate, in that players who aren’t famous that have skills for creating goals and scoring them no matter which team they play for are expensive. These players who aren’t at big teams in PES simply aren’t given decent stats. I give them the stats they should have and reduce plays like Ronaldo and Messi so that they don’t unrealistically un-balance the game
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The problem is Chimps, is the core engine. People like you can spend all the god given hours and you can get the stats and individuality as close of possible. So too can the mods on the PC using ball physics tweaks, graphics etc etc.

BUT - at the end of the day unless a developer creates a game that resembles football as I see on tv, then the race is never run in my eyes.

By that I mean -

Watch a game of football on tv, how many times is the ball passed backwards and sideways? Lots. Why? To create space because teams have players in the way of getting from point A to B and to draw opposition players out of position. There is method in teams madness that they pass the ball about.

Now roll on PES and to a certain extent FIFA. CPU gets the ball, anywhere on the pitch, roll on the dribble, dribble, dribble, pass forward, pass forward, dribble, make the human have to contain, then fire a shot. It's pretty much this all the time. I throw a f'kin party every time the CPU pass the ball sideways or backwards!

I played PES6 earlier and played against Arsenal. Guess what, there were balls passed backwards, sideways, forwards, some moves were complete passing moves others were dribbles; but the game looked and played like a football game would play. You can't just pick up the ball and dribble every time, guess what, there's like players in the way and shit!?!

Chimps, your work is fantastic. So to is Yair's and Mehtab and Nesa and Jenkey. But even they, after months of tweaking cannot get the CPU to play like a team would IRL.

In PES 2012, how many times have you actually had to chase the ball around for say more than 30 seconds of Earth time? Answer - hardly ever. How is that realistic. The same goes for FIFA. FIFA has this built in 'CPU keep possession' but it is only window dressing and just is executed in the script somewhere that the CPU keeps the ball, just for effect, before it TOO can out dribble you with your unresponsive defender.

I'm being quite critical this week, because it is getting to stage where both games are just not cutting it for me.

Why is the CPU programmed to be as direct as possible ALL THE TIME?!? The coding is like this -

CPU get the ball, dribble and be as direct as possible, if human player in way, then ignore threat or loss of possession, just trundle on, continue forward, press forward, keep pressing forward, even if you have easy lateral or backwards pass, keep forward, UNTIL, ball lost....

And that's about it. The problem is the CPU and human are on TOTALLY different planets in terms of the gameplay. The CPU has this little universe going on that passing lanes are easy, but it's easier just to dribble and be direct, whilst the human is aware of possession, if they lose the ball here etc and the consequences. It was hilarious yesterday, the CPU was on the touchline and went into touch three times in a row; it would rather lose possession by dribbling stupidly into touch than give a simple pass back! I mean what is going on.

Why is PES5/6 more realistic in terms of build up play, and the CPU reacting to human movement than next gen games? PES5/6 build up play from the CPU is near flawless. The attacking/defensive balance is near flawless.

In PES2012 the CPU is programmed to be as unrealistically sharp as possible to get from their penalty box to just outside your penalty box. There is no build up play, just a straight route to your box. You (the human player) put little obstacles in their way, known as your players, but the CPU carries on regardless. The game in PES 2012 revolves basically around your penalty area, and how long you can hold them off using contain. All the steps to get to your penalty area are just drops in the ocean, a kind of inconvenient slow down for the CPU. You can't sufficiently press the CPU in this game, you can't force them back, you can't create tactics that make the 'go-long' or make them pass the ball about the back four, because the CPU is simply too good and smart for 7/8ths of the pitch. So the only tactic is to contain/hold until you choke them in and around your penalty box.

It's becoming tedious to be honest. I just played a game just now, again v Arsenal on the PC version, and the CPU passed the ball back TWICE in the whole match!!! That's just ludicrous. And this is me playing 4-5-1 to which is meant to stifle them in midfield!

Now if you ask do I enjoy playing PES this year, then the answer has been yeah, as frustrating as it's been. If you ask me are we anywhere near it resembling a game of football in terms of how the CPU reacts and builds up play, then the answer is a definitive NO.

PES 2011 had lots of faults, but at least the CPU played some football and had some build up play, and at least you could press and pressure in areas and the CPU was forced to pass the ball amongst it's back four. This year's iteration is WAY, WAY too attacking orientated, even with the brilliant tweaks of Jenkey, Chimps et al.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
You make a great case Chimps, and I do respect all the hard work you put in to your files. They are just not for me personally, but I know there are a lot of people out there that use these gameplay tweaked files and really enjoy them. Again, it's just not for me. If I was in anyway unhappy with what I was playing 'out of the box', then maybe I'd look at something else. But the bottom-line is, that I'm very happy, and thats it.

As for Konami's track record being awful on next-gen, I disagree, massively. I take no notice of sales figures, they mean fuck all to me. If they did, I'd be playing Fifa. The proof of the pudding will always be how I find the games, and for me, I couldnt play another old-gen PES, it's light years away from what we have now. In my opinion.
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I would never hold anything against anyone that preferred playing the game differently Jimmy. I only ever really comment when people are saying things about modded files that might stop someone trying them as mine takes literally months and someone reading a comment like shooting is worse using a modded file or the game is easier may just write it off without trying it.

Over the last few years Konami has actually moved much closer to how my files play. I have noticed that the default teamwork and tenacity of smaller clubs has been raised from the 60’s to the 70’s which has made games harder. My files go little further, but also slow the game down in places and speed it up in others to reflect what I think football is like. Passing is slowed which means the game becomes better paced and I also allow players to outpace others in they would in real life. I then also try to make the game more fluid and smooth.

I like this year’s game. Out of the box with 1.03 on, I like it probably more than I did any other version on the PS3. I think I managed to get the previous year’s games to a point where I loved them and couldn’t stop playing them,, this year’s has little things in it that get on my nerves. The difference between some stadiums and modes in both how they look and play is infuriating. On some stadiums in the day in exhibition mode the game looks and plays amazing. In the master league they must knock off about 3 of each stat behind the scenes for your players to make the game more challenging, but the biggest effect this has is to make it feel clunky compared to exhibition. If you combine this with some stadiums playing far less smooth than others and night games looking pretty bad in some stadiums, the experience is significantly less entertaining in a high proportion of games in the master league than what can be achieved in exhibition mode and playing the master league is why I edit the game.

By me saying their track record is awful it was in response to you saying you konami are the masters as if they always know what they are doing. I don’t care about sales for any other reason than if they keep getting worse the game itself may not exist. It has taken konami until now to produce what people expected with the move to the PS3 and even then for a lot of people it took until the 1.03 patch. If they released this year’s game a few years ago the sales would probably be similar to FIFA, but they struggled with the move.

I am not someone who looks at previous versions with rose tainted specs, I have never gone backwards, though my old PS3 blowing up is more of the reason that I haven’t at least tried to go back to my master league on PES2011. I am also someone that cannot understand how people would prefer playing FIFA, it’s just not realistic and I get no thrill from scoring goals on it. I would love for FIFA to play well as it has so much going for it, but it doesn’t have game play.
 
ccshopland said:
The problem is Chimps, is the core engine. People like you can spend all the god given hours and you can get the stats and individuality as close of possible. So too can the mods on the PC using ball physics tweaks, graphics etc etc.

BUT - at the end of the day unless a developer creates a game that resembles football as I see on tv, then the race is never run in my eyes.

By that I mean -

Watch a game of football on tv, how many times is the ball passed backwards and sideways? Lots. Why? To create space because teams have players in the way of getting from point A to B and to draw opposition players out of position. There is method in teams madness that they pass the ball about.

Now roll on PES and to a certain extent FIFA. CPU gets the ball, anywhere on the pitch, roll on the dribble, dribble, dribble, pass forward, pass forward, dribble, make the human have to contain, then fire a shot. It's pretty much this all the time. I throw a f'kin party every time the CPU pass the ball sideways or backwards!

I played PES6 earlier and played against Arsenal. Guess what, there were balls passed backwards, sideways, forwards, some moves were complete passing moves others were dribbles; but the game looked and played like a football game would play. You can't just pick up the ball and dribble every time, guess what, there's like players in the way and shit!?!

Chimps, your work is fantastic. So to is Yair's and Mehtab and Nesa and Jenkey. But even they, after months of tweaking cannot get the CPU to play like a team would IRL.

In PES 2012, how many times have you actually had to chase the ball around for say more than 30 seconds of Earth time? Answer - hardly ever. How is that realistic. The same goes for FIFA. FIFA has this built in 'CPU keep possession' but it is only window dressing and just is executed in the script somewhere that the CPU keeps the ball, just for effect, before it TOO can out dribble you with your unresponsive defender.

I'm being quite critical this week, because it is getting to stage where both games are just not cutting it for me.

Why is the CPU programmed to be as direct as possible ALL THE TIME?!? The coding is like this -

CPU get the ball, dribble and be as direct as possible, if human player in way, then ignore threat or loss of possession, just trundle on, continue forward, press forward, keep pressing forward, even if you have easy lateral or backwards pass, keep forward, UNTIL, ball lost....

And that's about it. The problem is the CPU and human are on TOTALLY different planets in terms of the gameplay. The CPU has this little universe going on that passing lanes are easy, but it's easier just to dribble and be direct, whilst the human is aware of possession, if they lose the ball here etc and the consequences. It was hilarious yesterday, the CPU was on the touchline and went into touch three times in a row; it would rather lose possession by dribbling stupidly into touch than give a simple pass back! I mean what is going on.

Why is PES5/6 more realistic in terms of build up play, and the CPU reacting to human movement than next gen games? PES5/6 build up play from the CPU is near flawless. The attacking/defensive balance is near flawless.

In PES2012 the CPU is programmed to be as unrealistically sharp as possible to get from their penalty box to just outside your penalty box. There is no build up play, just a straight route to your box. You (the human player) put little obstacles in their way, known as your players, but the CPU carries on regardless. The game in PES 2012 revolves basically around your penalty area, and how long you can hold them off using contain. All the steps to get to your penalty area are just drops in the ocean, a kind of inconvenient slow down for the CPU. You can't sufficiently press the CPU in this game, you can't force them back, you can't create tactics that make the 'go-long' or make them pass the ball about the back four, because the CPU is simply too good and smart for 7/8ths of the pitch. So the only tactic is to contain/hold until you choke them in and around your penalty box.

It's becoming tedious to be honest. I just played a game just now, again v Arsenal on the PC version, and the CPU passed the ball back TWICE in the whole match!!! That's just ludicrous. And this is me playing 4-5-1 to which is meant to stifle them in midfield!

Now if you ask do I enjoy playing PES this year, then the answer has been yeah, as frustrating as it's been. If you ask me are we anywhere near it resembling a game of football in terms of how the CPU reacts and builds up play, then the answer is a definitive NO.

PES 2011 had lots of faults, but at least the CPU played some football and had some build up play, and at least you could press and pressure in areas and the CPU was forced to pass the ball amongst it's back four. This year's iteration is WAY, WAY too attacking orientated, even with the brilliant tweaks of Jenkey, Chimps et al.
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recently ive been playing pes6 with phoenix patch...and to be honest... I wonder what Konami have been doing in the past 6 years! the game with the updated graphics looks olmost better than pes2012 when playing on the new camera angles...the stadiums are amazing and in HD. The gameplay is the best simulation of football I have ever witneses. I have got to a point when you really question both EA and Konami for the lack developpement in the genre. the AI play intellegent football, get in space, keep possession and theres a way to stop them, its not like that cheating ronaldo backhill feint that everyplayer that teh AI CPU use can do in front of goal to score in pes2012.

The strategy system is the still the best ive seen. controlling your player position and how they play. Yet that stupid system of pes2012 is the most incongruent and unclear system I have ever seen.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
I take no notice of sales figures, they mean fuck all to me. If they did, I'd be playing Fifa.
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Apart from this statement making little sense, this is a very selfish view to take on your favourite gaming series. Sales do matter because as Chimps said....

Chimps-with-quiffs said:
I don’t care about sales for any other reason than if they keep getting worse the game itself may not exist.
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Sales are falling year on year and that can't go unchecked if PES is to have a healthy future. Speaking as someone with a huge amount of fondness for PES, the last thing I want to see is PES become a niche title with limited appeal.

Chimps-with-quiffs said:
It’s no good producing a game that needs to played for half a year for the penny to drop with a handful of die-hards, that won’t resurrect the games success and by that I don’t mean produce something with no depth.
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Exactly. If PES 2012 can only hold the attention of the absolute hardcore (and extremely forgiving) PES fans then the future isn't very bright for the series. The game needs to regain the wider, mass-market audience that it once had and punch it's weight in the sales charts once again. The old cliche "easy to learn, hard to master" should be the focus for the series once again. That was what the series was built on and endeared it to casual and hardcore football gamers alike.

For anyone to say they are perfectly happy with the game while ignoring the problems and falling sales is only kicking the can down the road.
 
You just don't get it do you James. Explain to me the other major factor of Konami's sales and exactly why that maybe ? That should give you the answer as to why sales figures mean jack shit to me.

I'm not being blind and ignoring faults for the love of Konami, grow up will you, this game is truly brilliant in my opinion. What do you want me to do ? Pretend it's shit because you and many others don't/won't/can't appreciate it ?
 
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If Konami are smart they will sign up Rob Hawthorne and Gary Neville to do the commentating on PES 2013! Listening to them tonight they are by far the best partnership.

Get on it Konami as it's time the sound was stepped up big time.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
You just don't get it do you James. Explain to me the other major factor of Konami's sales and exactly why that maybe ? That should give you the answer as to why sales figures mean jack shit to me.
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What other major factor? Both PES and FIFA are available on all platforms. Fifa has a licensing edge but the fact is PES has more licenses now than it ever has. PES never has had EA's promotional budget but still sold very well in the past and was always a very relevant, mainstream product back in the PS2 days.

You've lost me.

The fact is people aren't buying PES in the numbers they used to and that can only be because of gameplay and tech.

Jimmy G-Force said:
I'm not being blind and ignoring faults for the love if Konami, grow up will you, this game is truly brilliant in my opinion. What do you want me to do ? Pretend it's shit because you and many others don't/won't/can't appreciate it ?
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I don't want you to pretend to feel any differently about PES. The thing is - as Chimps alluded to earlier - your view of each new PES game rarely veers from 'truly brilliant' even though the game has changed massively over the last three years, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse. I never really know what you think of these games because your feelings are unwavering. There doesn't seem to be any true consistency in your views because even when something about PES doesn't work properly you can spin it to be a positive. I can't do that so credit to you I suppose.

I'll leave it there.
 
Jamezinho said:
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The fact is people aren't buying PES in the numbers they used to and that can only be because of gameplay and tech.
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Yeah none of my mates buy PES anymore and the reason they dont buy it is purely down to not liking the gameplay of the Demo's that are released each year.
 
Flaw3d Genius said:
Yeah none of my mates buy PES anymore and the reason they dont buy it is purely down to not liking the gameplay of the Demo's that are released each year.
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Same story here.. every year since 2008 , more of my m8 are don't buying PES.
Maybe this year , afeter 2010 is the worst . None , i repeat, none of my mates are buying PES 2012. Part of them buy FIFA to play online clubs or.. ultimate team, other part just donwload the game from some torrents, other just play online old games like PES 5/6 and other part is just stop to playing football games. The shoking is ... in pes-bg, where i'm a mod, only 2 users are buy the game, never been so bad... its unbelievable :SHOCK:
I do not know what of konam must do to return people back to PES, it seems impossible.
 
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I do agree that at times the coding appears too aggressive in terms of players wanting to get forward but the last 7 or 8 games I've played has me convinced that it's paramount to setup your team's formation and tactics correctly but more importantly you must learn how to cut off the passing lanes properly. It's taken me a while to be able to do it enough times in a match to make sure I don't cop more than a couple of really clear chances in a game.

If you get it right, and it DOES require a lot of concentration and you have to remember to let the AI defending do it's thing, then you will see the CPU move the ball around or play it backwards and sideways.

The whiteboard scenes pre-game are vital clues for me in how to setup against the opposition. yet I know some people just like to skip them lol
 
Jamezinho said:
I don't want you to pretend to feel any differently about PES. The thing is - as Chimps alluded to earlier - your view of each new PES game rarely veers from 'truly brilliant' even though the game has changed massively over the last three years, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worse. I never really know what you think of these games because your feelings are unwavering. There doesn't seem to be any true consistency in your views because even when something about PES doesn't work properly you can spin it to be a positive. I can't do that so credit to you I suppose.
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I dont want to open old wounds or start another argument with you Jimmy but Jamez has a point there.

It's hard to understand or take seriously the views of someone who is so consistently OTT in their praise of a series of games that have been amazingly inconsistent over the last few years.

No one wants you to pretend PES is crap but you have to see why it's kinda hard for us to understand how you can continuously love the series no matter what Konami do with it and find very little wrong with every new feature they implement or every old feature they decide to leave out.

I'm not trying to offend you by saying that, I'm just saying Jamez and Chimps before him have made good points and maybe trying to explain why you've butted heads with a few people on this thread in the past. Myself included of course! :P

I think you once said that PES was pretty much the only game you ever played, was that you? I cant help but wonder if that's why you find it difficult to find fault with it, because if PES was no good your gaming life would grind to a sudden halt and there would be a large gap in your gaming life you would struggle to fill because if you dont like FIFA there is no alternative out there?

That's just a bullshit theory that occurred to me right this minute though of course, I know you really love the game and fair play to you for it. I suppose I should stick to trying to explain my own thought process rather than delve into yours.

:COOL:
 
Firstly, the reason why sales figures mean nothing to me is down to the fact, PES is catering for a different audience to the mainstrean. In years gone by, PES didnt have any real rival, Fifa was nothing compared to how it is today. Therefore, the majority played PES. Also, PES back then certainly didnt offer the kind of hardcore experience it does now. And obviously, that will never be to everyones liking, quite the opposite in fact. The reason PES has seen such a huge decline in sales is because for the most part, Fifa now offers a fantastic all-round package. Fifa is the game to play, it's the most accessible, and by far, the better looking title across so many levels. It's Fifa's success that has seen the demise of PES from a sales perspective.

Now, I personally take comfort in that. And the reason is, in my opinion, PES is offering something far more complex, which naturally won't be everybodies cup of tea. I appreciate that, it isnt a game that will give you instant gratification, and for that reason alone, the majority will always opt for something else. And they have, and sales figures rubberstamp that.

I dont want an old-gen PES, I want to move with the times, and this next-gen PES is offering something completely different. I would actually be more concerned if PES was the title murdering the sales numbers. That tells me that the game has moved to a more pick-up-and-play philosophy. I dont want that, I want it how it is, offering a more diverse and complex alternate.

There are millions of the PES hardcore, and for those players, PES is the only option. These players are certainly in the minority, but there is a belief and understanding that binds that collective. And make no mistake, the unwavering love of Konami isnt the primary driver, it's the appreciation of the product.

There is no doubt, for me, that PES has improved with every next-gen addition. So yes, with each year I will find the game better, and 'brilliant'. I never once stated that I actually enjoyed PES 2011 and it's offline play, it always bored me. PES 2010 was the last time I really enjoyed an offline ML, and even that was for only a couple of seasons. PES 2009 was a great for BAL, and again, I only played a few seasons of offline ML. PES 2008 isnt even worth talking about. I enjoyed PES 6 for what it was, but again, 4-5 seasons of offline ML and I was done. PES 5 was the last time I have played offline ML to the extent I am right now. I'm currently in my 5th season of my PES 2012 ML, and I barely feel like I have even started. It's wonderful experience, and one that has stopped me even venturing online, which is unheard of. I'm also having to build a team from scratch and mould them into my own philosophy, which is a superb system.

In all my years playing ML in PES, there has only ever been one season (PES 2010) where I havent gained promotion on Top Player to the EPL immediately. And then won the EPL and CL within a couple of seasons after that. This so isnt the case this time around, and that's exactly how it should be. Every game is a huge challenge, one where I need to dig deep, use varying strategies and formations to gain results. Hopefully this is the season that I will finally gain promotion, and even when/if that happens, the next step will be to merely stay relevant in the EPL, such is the emphasis on individuality. That's how a team like Boro in an ML should pan out, and that's what's happening. In my opinion, on the correct settings, this game is a masterpiece.

Edit -

And Pj, I do only play a couple of games PES 2012 and UFC 3, that's it really. I own UC3, GT5 etc etc, but these games hold no interest for me. I don't play PES because I have no other options, I play it because I absolutely love it, and I simply cannot get enough of it. And the more I learn about it, the more I uncover. It's depth, in my opinion, is limitless. So many variables.
 
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I totally take your point about the ML, it really has been too easy at times over the years and doesn't really encourage playing through it again and again once you've won everything because the game wont let you change teams. The trouble for me is that these very same problems remain in PES 2012 except now even the process of winning everything in those first couple of seasons is tainted because the playability and enjoyment is no longer there for me.

I also love building up a team from nothing and going on to win it all and I both expect and enjoy a bit of a struggle while doing so but I find PES 2012 to be too damn boring and glitched to even bother. In the short time I played it I won everything except the Champions League with my distinctly average Rangers side made up of youth players and transfer market bargains. The whole experience was utterly uninspiring and dull for the first time ever in my time playing ISS/PES.

Normally I would put the difficulty up a notch to superstar and start over again but I find little point doing that with this version because all the things I hate about the game will still be there, in fact some of them will be made even worse on purpose.

I simply dont see the depth and variation that you do Jimmy and I am utterly convinced that it's just not there so I suppose we'll never see eye to eye on PES 2012.

Believe it or not your passion, commitment and unending desire to play this game reminds me of how I used to feel about PES. I wish I could still be in that place but I'm not because in my view the quality of the series has dipped dramatically with PES 2012 which I feel has been a huge backward step for the series. I played PES 2011 again over the weekend at my mate's and was amazed at how much better the game looked and played to the current version. It's ridiculous how Konami seem to have taken that basic template for a decent football game and ripped it up to start again with PES 2012. Where is the evolution?

Anyway, you put your points across well there Jimmy and we both know we'll never agree on the quality of PES so its futile to even discuss it but I'm glad the sniping and insults between us have come to an end..........for now! :P
 
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