PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

[CalcioCalabrese]

Jimmy - nice lob goal before. I experimented in training mode with the L1 shot and found it sometimes does a chip or lob and if you get the body position right it will hit a curler. Sometimes like an R2 controlled shot but sometimes really wrapping the player's foot around the ball.

Quite hard to get them on target, unlike FIFA, where every finesse shot is spot on. Whilst that kind of success rate/accuracy is not something I want on PES, I do think they should remove the auto shot select thing that sometimes can happen.

If I want to try a standard lob, let me use L1 and shoot. If I want to try a finesse type curler, let me use another button combination. Doesn't mean the resulting shot should always look the same - I still want the the accuracy and power determined by body shape and ball position plus player stats. But they can't call it a game for freedom if they won't give us full reign over the type of shot we have.

I was even looking at a PES 2011 compilation I had made and there's a couple of goals where I laced it from 18 yards but because the keeper was slightly off his line, it was a half paced shot that looped over him as a lob. Looked great in hindsight but I didn't ask for that shot. That's something they definitely need to adress if they want shooting to be as much zero assist as passing is trying to be.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

I totally hear you there. The thing is though, the shooting side of the game will always have more relevance statistic-wise than passing I feel. More options and more variables.

I believe we do have a great amount of freedom now in the shooting, but what can cloud this perspective, is the same animations at times for R1 and R2 shots. There is a modifier technique wise though, and that is all down to us, by offering differing angles. I much prefer that, as it adheres strictly to technique rather than pressing a button to dictate it.The attempt from Williams was a different technique than the goal by Petrov. One came straight on with a placed chip, the other side on, with a whipped instep.

It's all about the animations for me, they need more. The theory of both though is spot on. And the way I've always viewed it is, as long as the theory is correct, then I'm happy.

Zee's FK goal the other day, was all wrong, the theory and animation was piss-poor, it was bullshit. I really hate seeing that happen, thankfully it's very infrequent, but it's still there.

I personally would love to see the 'Scoop' chip animation when shooting from close range from a standing position. PES badly misses that animation technique. You can pull off the theory, with R2 and power, but it still should have it's own animation. The same could be said for a 'stabbed' chip shot with R1. They are clipped at present, at that's fine, it's correct. I still feel straight on chip shot though would benefit from a 'stabbed' chip animation in the relevant situation with the correct body posture.

Edit -

I've just watched that Petrov goal again, and everything theory wise is perfect. Close to feet, left foot, back across the keeper, and even the flight of the ball. The only thing that lets it down from a visual perspective is that, really, it should have the 'stabbed' animation for the chip. Petrov's animation for that shot has follow-through on the strike, when really, his motion should stop dead at the 'stab'. It's just the animations, they need more, the rest is spot-on.

 

[xPJRx]

Konami totally undersell theirselves, so many variations to shooting but none of it is ever documented or in the manual. Its left to hearsay on the forums and theres a sense of myth around it all, does it actually work, doesnt it?!

 

[Jimi_Zuko]

for all those guys that are struggling with a formation and really want to enjoy fluid attacking football click on this link, hope it helps anyone that really wants to enjoy this game but cant get the right tactics :-)

YouTube - PES 2012 Attacking Advanced Tutorial - Maintain Vertical Spacing

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Konami totally undersell theirselves, so many variations to shooting but none of it is ever documented or in the manual. Its left to hearsay on the forums and theres a sense of myth around it all, does it actually work, doesnt it?!

Massively under-sell themselves in my opinion. And across so many areas. I can never work out if that is intentional, so we dig and find, or whether they just don't have the translation skills to effectively relay it back. I mean, when do we ever hear Jon Murphy get as technical as what we do on here ? Never.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

The Gabba Cupboard

Spoiler

Dj Smurf's nosebleed sessions.

You might want to dig out your raving shoes for this one in May.

 

[nerf]

I've just watched that Petrov goal again, and everything theory wise is perfect. Close to feet, left foot, back across the keeper, and even the flight of the ball. The only thing that lets it down from a visual perspective is that, really, it should have the 'stabbed' animation for the chip. Petrov's animation for that shot has follow-through on the strike, when really, his motion should stop dead at the 'stab'. It's just the animations, they need more, the rest is spot-on.

Not only should it stop dead at the stab, but there should be a down-swing to begin with. He barely lifts his leg back at all, he couldn't generate that sort of distance like that.

It's nit-picking on video game animations; I guess the more important thing is that the function is there. (I would be more bothered that, in both of your chip videos, there's a defender stood deeper than his own penalty spot. That drives me insane just from seeing it in videos, never mind playing it.)

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Not only should it stop dead at the stab, but there should be a down-swing to begin with. He barely lifts his leg back at all, he couldn't generate that sort of distance like that.

It's nit-picking on video game animations; I guess the more important thing is that the function is there. (I would be more bothered that, in both of your chip videos, there's a defender stood deeper than his own penalty spot. That drives me insane just from seeing it in videos, never mind playing it.)

True, I guess that type of floated 'stab' would require back-lift, but a 'stab' chip is also possible with very little back-lift. The trajectory of the latter would have a more 'clipped' path, as in up-and-down quicker. I prefer the former though, which is what Petrov tried, theory-wise anyway.

Edit -

(I would be more bothered that, in both of your chip videos, there's a defender stood deeper than his own penalty spot. That drives me insane just from seeing it in videos, never mind playing it.)

What about that drives you insane ? I genuinely don't understand what you mean there ?

All I see is the CB tracking the run through the middle of Emes, if he didn't pre-empt that run, I'd have had an easy dink over the top into Emnes's path. That would have made the defence look static and rigid.

 

[nerf]

What about that drives you insane ? I genuinely don't understand what you mean there ?

All I see is the CB tracking the run through the middle of Emes, if he didn't pre-empt that run, I'd have had an easy dink over the top into Emnes's path. That would have made the defence look static and rigid.

Since you ask... it's more prominent in the first video, where a defender positions himself 9 yards from his own goal-line. Nobody defends like that. It's a basic defensive crime that seems to happen persistently, and leaps off the screen.

Compare the shape preservation, the clean-ish lines, the intent to protect the 18 yard line. That's how real life teams defend.

In the second video, the defender is indeed intending to track Emnes as you say, but is severely let down by the fact he's doing it facing 180 degrees from play (suicide), and is whole yards separated from the man he's 'marking'.

I take it you were never a defender, Jimmy

 

[Platini]

So many times I wonder if anyone could master this game ever! Now, after spending some good time, I am not sure about the number of ways I can manage to dribbling through defenses, let alone shooting! Sometimes you don't need R2 at all. Sometimes it is a must. Sometimes you can just walk through, but sometimes you have to dash via R1. Sometimes, L1 does wonders but sometimes does you harm. So, you cannot, as I guess, associate these buttons directly to certain moves. I hope this not an illusion; Konami left it open for us to discover and rediscover again and again. Just like music, we all know about the keys but everyone plays it differently!


Could this be true?

 

[Chimps-with-quiffs]

Spoiler

Dj Smurf's nosebleed sessions.

You might want to dig out your raving shoes for this one in May.

I have Dj'ed with Smurf before, I will never forget it as I had 3 record bags stollen that night. It was in the late nineties and even then I was only playing what would be classed as old skool.

The pic in my avatar is me dj'ing at an old skool event a couple of years ago.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

I have Dj'ed with Smurf before, I will never forget it as I had 3 record bags stollen that night. It was in the late nineties and even then I was only playing what would be classed as old skool.

The pic in my avatar is me dj'ing at an old skool event a couple of years ago.

Spoiler

Glen (Smurf) is a top bloke and is finally getting his deserve and it's making it big in Holland now (they even put on Smurf Hardcore nights)

Funny Story about Smurf, he had a gig down in Wales and about 12 of us including Smurf set off on a minibus from Stirling, on the way down we hammered the Whiskey and Aftershock got to the club and when Glen was meant to go on he stood in front of the decks absolutely wasted and had no clue what to do, he just stood wrapping his headphone cable right round his head for about 2 minutes before he had to get lead away , After the night we then went down the prom on top of the minibus dancing at 5mph all the way back to a party

 

[we7god]

are there any news about new dlc with roster updates ?

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Since you ask... it's more prominent in the first video, where a defender positions himself 9 yards from his own goal-line. Nobody defends like that. It's a basic defensive crime that seems to happen persistently, and leaps off the screen.

Compare the shape preservation, the clean-ish lines, the intent to protect the 18 yard line. That's how real life teams defend.

In the second video, the defender is indeed intending to track Emnes as you say, but is severely let down by the fact he's doing it facing 180 degrees from play (suicide), and is whole yards separated from the man he's 'marking'.

I take it you were never a defender, Jimmy

I like what you did there, with the pictures.

Although, they are 'still' shots, and to be honest, defensive lines are not always 'by the book' and regimented like that. It's great in principle sure, the defensive line works as a unit, and if your theory with regards PES is completely accurate, there would be no such things as offside, and I get caught regular. The CPU does push up as unit. Of course, you also get the odd full-back playing the opposition onside with his positioning. That's perfectly normal, not right, but normal. Footballer's aren't robots, even if some PES animations make it look that way.

There is so much movement on the pitch when your jogging with the ball in this PES, I've never even noticed what your mentioning as an issue. And that alone says a lot of how natural I perceive it to be, or not to be.

Your right, I never was a defender, but lets be honest, even as an AMF, I need to be more than aware of the defensive lines and shape.

Your obviously an advocate of how Fifa does it, and I'm cool with that, I just prefer this way. Fifa has always been too rigid for my tastes with regards how they set up formations. And if this kills you, then thankfully at least we both have what we want.

 

[Suarez x7]

Does anybody know is there is any way to edit player stats DURING a Master League Season on the PC, using a edit program of some sort ???

 

[klashman69]

Since you ask... it's more prominent in the first video, where a defender positions himself 9 yards from his own goal-line. Nobody defends like that. It's a basic defensive crime that seems to happen persistently, and leaps off the screen.

Compare the shape preservation, the clean-ish lines, the intent to protect the 18 yard line. That's how real life teams defend.

In the second video, the defender is indeed intending to track Emnes as you say, but is severely let down by the fact he's doing it facing 180 degrees from play (suicide), and is whole yards separated from the man he's 'marking'.

I take it you were never a defender, Jimmy

Your not serious are you?

Really, that's Boro clearly trying to play offside trap and in that game they where looking to push up the pitch as much as possible, not stupid high line levels but enough to allow them to attack with vigor. Jesus, my Wolfsburg team had a line like that when i beat Fulham 3-1 in my Master League match. Just by changing the tactics.

Whats this about PES defences only sit back on the 6 yard line? Every time barca kick my ass, they never sit back like Millwall/Birmingham whoever are doing in the screen cap from Jimmys goal

Not every team has a line like that either. Different teams defend in different ways. Look at Milans defence yesterday when they where 3-0, sitting very deep and playing on the counter but it's different to Boro's there.

Play the game, experiment with the tactics then make a comment.

Fuck this I'm out, I'll post Milan's lineup in the tactics thread if anyone wants it.

Just any excuse to hammer the game Even really baldy put together one like that.

 

[xPJRx]

Klash - you post some really good informative stuff and your obviously an intelligent guy that has a deep understanding of football. But you're not the only one.
Your posts have such a condescending undertone to them that you speak down to people as if your a tactical genius.

Ive also played football professionally, for a premier league club, done my FA coaching badges and play PES loads, you dont see me berating everyone that has a differing opinion to mine.
and for the record alot of teams in PES DO camp back in their own box all the time.
I paused the game and counted all 10 outfield players in their own 18 yard box the other night, when the CPU was 1-0 down!

 

[nerf]

You're hilarious, Klash. An absolute parody of yourself.

 

[zeemeister]

Nice goal mr g force pure class

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Nice goal mr g force pure class

If there was one person that would appreciate that goal more than me, it was you bud. I was waiting for this.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Klash you're so full of contradictions it's hilarious. In just three or four posts you've wildly gone from giving us all 'life lessons' by telling us not to argue about the game, to then venomously arguing about the game yourself, stating you're never going to post here again before repeatedly posting in here, then claiming its not worth arguing about because you don't care what other's opinions are, before ramming your rather mute point home that PES is the greatest thing ever.

And for what it's worth, I dobt think i agree with a single point youve said about the two games, particularly your somewhat outrageous claims about FIFA12. How is it full of bugs? You're making stuff up there. I haven't seen a single bug so far and I bought it on release day. How you can claim that when it's PES2012 that has random keeper freak outs, awful referee decisions based around collision detection errors, and how the ball can magically pass through a player's body is astounding. Talk about putting the blinkers on.

 

[klashman69]

Klash - you post some really good informative stuff and your obviously an intelligent guy that has a deep understanding of football. But you're not the only one.
Your posts have such a condescending undertone to them that you speak down to people as if your a tactical genius.

Ive also played football professionally, for a premier league club, done my FA coaching badges and play PES loads, you dont see me berating everyone that has a differing opinion to mine.
and for the record alot of teams in PES DO camp back in their own box all the time.
I paused the game and counted all 10 outfield players in their own 18 yard box the other night, when the CPU was 1-0 down!

Yes, but when you say, this is because of the All out Defence, tactic, or because of the long ball tactic which makes people camp in the box. You would think people would understand.

This forum makes me want to bang my head against a wall. the amount of times you have repeat yourself beaus of the incredible levels of ignorance of some people.

I mean have i ever once backed down when someone questions my opinion or logic? I always explain myself fully. I can explain myself over and over and over.

Yes, i know it was truly condescending, but you would think a guy who look for a 'tactical game' would know better! Especially when i could have a field day exposing his game of choice.

As for me thinking myself a tactical genius, i mean again, the amount of times i almost scream at people. It's not hard, i am no tactics overload, I'm not exactly a football manager, i don't now and will not know about every team it does not take, hours and hours of research or a gifted brain. I mean the tactics thread is about getting the community involved and us sharing ideas. and listing all real life tactics for patches to give out more varied gameplay. But nobody cares. Despite the guides, despite the templates i set out.

We get places by working together, but it seems nobody want to work together here.

Klash you're so full of contradictions it's hilarious. In just three or four posts you've wildly gone from giving us all 'life lessons' by telling us not to argue about the game, to then venomously arguing about the game yourself, stating you're never going to post here again before repeatedly posting in here, then claiming its not worth arguing about because you don't care what other's opinions are, before ramming your rather mute point home that PES is the greatest thing ever.

When someone calls me out, i never back down. Big Principle of mine, practice what you preach i mean the contradiction here is you state something against me like you have here and if i don't reply. Your going to feel your correct are you? So if you post here like you have done now. What do you expect me to do?

Yes i am going, but not until i've closed the book, it was closed, but you opened it again.

And for what it's worth, I dobt think i agree with a single point youve said about the two games, particularly your somewhat outrageous claims about FIFA12. How is it full of bugs?

I seen them myself on my mates xbox. When i played the game against him. it is full of bugs. Especially manager mode. Messi still the best player in the world in 2021, no player under the game of 24 is over 80, Barca who my mate played in the champions league final in 2021, still had pretty much the same team without Xavi, Puyol and Abidal (old players)etc.. despite them all being in their mid 30's still ran around the pitch as if they where in their early 20's. Despite Blackburn having a dream team, they where still finishing mid-table and lower every season.

I mean i remember taking your advice on team styles and setting up a game on his with them. the game still broken, the AI still don't fucking close you down, you can just pass about for as long as you like with any team, even on manual. the game has been made by a psychologist to get people to play in a condition belief that slow football is realistic football it seems.

Funny how most people seem to play 3-4 season then start again, hence why they can't see how fucked up it is once you venture deep into Manager Mode. I sure a psychologist would had seen this and structured manager mode to be based around 2-3 seasons.

I can go on, but whats the point. You get the jist!

You're making stuff up there. I haven't seen a single bug so far and I bought it on release day. How you can claim that when it's PES2012 that has random keeper freak outs, awful referee decisions based around collision detection errors, and how the ball can magically pass through a player's body is astounding. Talk about putting the blinkers on.

I've seen keeper bugs, seen animations freak outs, seen all sorts of bizarre stuff off the ball. Some of the most rigid defending i've ever seen. Let's not go on too much because, i hate the company EA now. They just annoy me, everything about them. All they care about is money, they try tricking people into liking their product rather than just fix the core errors once and for all. I can't stand them. hey, if you like it fine.

 

[zeemeister]

shooting PES 2012 online

YouTube - PES2012 shooting.wmv

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Klash, I'm not gonna argue with you, full stop. I can't be bothered to be quite frank. We have different opinions, lets respect that. You've seemed like a good guy who has done some great work with your editing, so lets just leave it at that shall we? Your posts got my back up because I felt you were shouting down people who had a different opinion to yours, so if that's not what you meant then I apologise. I don't see why you'd need to leave the forum either, there's no harm in discussing your passions with like minded people, whether some of us disagree now and again or not. I just can't be bothered with falling out with people.

 

[nerf]

Yes, i know it was truly condescending, but you would think a guy who look for a 'tactical game' would know better! Especially when i could have a field day exposing his game of choice.

Don't embarrass yourself, Klash. No team chooses to defend inside its own penalty area (when the ball is ahead of them), regardless of tactics. There's no tactical setting that should lead to that situation. It's simply bad marking AI causing them to track runs too deep and disintegrate their shape too easily.

I pointed out something that is blatantly incorrect in the AI, displayed how it was different to real life, and you fly off the handle like that. Making petty comments about a game I never mentioned. I thought you weren't going to get worked up about video games, remember?

This sort of unrealistic defensive behaviour ruined FIFA10 & World Cup for me. With Rom's help, through some feedback we got this changed and it became much better for 11. It's good to talk about it.

But as much as you protest otherwise, a negative critique against PES would cause you to argue that white is black, wouldn't it?

 

[curdstar]

I don't think there is any doubt that so far as tech. goes, FIFA is a more robust game than PES. If only that was everything in a football game though.

For all that I can enjoy FIFA12, I feel like I am doing so on it's terms. I think that for all it's technical shortcomings PES demands more from me and the result is a game that organically encourages expressive play. The irony here is that FIFA has all the tech. in place to allow for an arguably far more expressive game but it doesn't demand it in quite the same way PES does for me. Too often in FIFA I feel that I just need to bring it down to walking pace in the opponents final third, meaning they don't pressure with any real intensity, me picking a pass into feet towards a player on the edge of the box, using the defender as a screen and curling in a finesse shot. You can, of course, do more than that and the game certainly allows for that to be the case but it doesn't force you to. You can play with similar build up in PES but the screen/finesse combo doesn't result in a goal even a quarter as often as found in FIFA. This is n part down to well documented woes with shooting but without doubt player stats play there part as well and I simply don't find that to be the case with FIFA at all - it seems designed to instantly gratify and players are either really good at finesse shooting or really, really, really good.

It isn't about ''sim'' or ''arcade'' and more about basic gameplay design - I feel I can do more with my play in PES as opposed to FIFA. The charge often levelled at someone who suggests that FIFA can be very one dimensional - even if that single dimension is pretty damned solid - is that they aren't being imaginative enough but that misses the point completely as it shouldn't be all about the player dreaming up ways to score, more that the game simply demands it from you and you end up doing so without too much thought. That is not to say PES doesn't demand some thought to your creativity but the balance just feels better. Again, it isn't about it being ''sim'' or ''arcade'' and if it were, being in possession of a football in real life is more ''arcade'' than ''sim''.

I don't think either game is particularly strong with it's defensive control and design but I am totally perplexed as to how many a review/opinion suggests that Tactical Defending in FIFA is a revelation - it is merely a re-mapping of the defensive controls across more buttons. More button inputs again doesn't equate to more ''sim'' it equates to counter intuitive and even though I can use Tactical Defending reasonably well, it has always struck me as an artificial layer of difficulty. PES' system is more streamlined (though still essentially a re-map) and, in theory at least, more intuitive a system but there are balance issues and a severe lack of visual signposting. the PES2011 system was the way to move forward and really, in my opinion, only lacked said visual signposting in order to help it succeed.

Comment is also made as to how the AI in FIFA passes and probes and games can end with more ''realistic'' possession stats. True, if you use Tactical Defending for as soon as I went back to the more streamlined and basically more intuitive Legacy model, those figures went just as wonky as you will find in PES, with me having the lions share of possession on Legendary difficulty. I'm not saying I win every game on FIFA or that is pish easy, but it does share similarities with PES regards the possession spread when to strip away all the artificial difficulty layered on top. I also feel that in FIFA that for as much as the COM can knock it about fairly tidily, it ain't half unimaginative.

Both this years footy games level out at offering enjoyable experiences in the main for me. I still prefer PES but only just and it's tech. and overall lack of polish do make it that little harder for it to satisfy me consistently. FIFA instantly gratifies but at a cost of lack of depth. Both could be doing with taking notes from one another...and the NBA2K series.

 

[klashman69]

Klash, I'm not gonna argue with you, full stop. I can't be bothered to be quite frank. We have different opinions, lets respect that. You've seemed like a good guy who has done some great work with your editing, so lets just leave it at that shall we? Your posts got my back up because I felt you were shouting down people who had a different opinion to yours, so if that's not what you meant then I apologise. I don't see why you'd need to leave the forum either, there's no harm in discussing your passions with like minded people, whether some of us disagree now and again or not. I just can't be bothered with falling out with people.

Well firstly I'm too busy, I'm only on here because i have a week off. Secondly I'm just looking out for the January update, when it might come.

Thirdly, nobody is going to give a monkeys what i say anymore. Only thing which has annoyed me is the lack of interest in teams tactics, but i see peoples constantly moaning about team playing the same? I give out all these guides, give out tactics for certain team so people can get the hang of how they work, but nobody seems to care. There was couple of people who tried something different but that died pretty quickly. Since i hate FIFA so much now, anything i say about PES is just going be ignored since I'm seen as a fanboy.

So I serve no purpose here, until maybe the summer if i decide to do tactics for a EURO 2012 patch. That's if, but i doubt it.

Don't embarrass yourself, Klash. No team chooses to defend inside its own penalty area (when the ball is ahead of them), regardless of tactics. There's no tactical setting that should lead to that situation. It's simply bad marking AI causing them to track runs too deep and disintegrate their shape too easily.

I'm just when onto 101 great goals, to find some examples, i've found 5, just from 4 games and short highlights which show 1 even two defenders defending deep, just like the blue defender in PES.

Best example is Arsenal vs Milan, you can see Vermaelen taking up a very similar position to the guy in PES. (yes Vermy was crap vs Milan)



I mean whats also interesting is look how Seedorf is at the edge of the box, just like Pertov, 20-23 yards out for Middlesborough in the PES cap, unlike in the Sunderland game where the ball was 34-35 yards out.

Benfica tried this vs Zenit yesterday which i saw in the highlights just now. The usual circumstance is when a team plays it out wide, momentum break and they come back inside, just outside the box, the center backs sit deep and the team packs infront of goal.

Zenit did protect their 18 yard line, as expected, like Middlesbrough vs Sunderland in the clip, why? Because they where looking to attack. Benfica on the other hand wanted to nick an away goal and instead sit rather deep.

I'm not saying it's perfect but for you to say it don't happen in real life is just an example, you don't like PES. Does it happen too much in PES, yes a little too much but it's not on PES5 or 6 extreme levels like your alluding to.

My Arsenal did this at times, not cuz they wanted to, just played on the situation and got undone. For you to say no team defends like that and i find two examples in a short search. I mean on the site now, watch Mehmet Topal's goal vs Stoke, Stoke defending deep there also! But they, I'm a nutcase who's a PES fanboy.

Different situations happen all the time.

I pointed out something that is blatantly incorrect in the AI, displayed how it was different to real life, and you fly off the handle like that. Making petty comments about a game I never mentioned. I thought you weren't going to get worked up about video games, remember?

No, I'm just shocked, the hypocrisy. All you ever do in this thread is moan about PES, and pick out a flaw, ignore absolutely everything positive about the game. it's the signs of a person who dosen't want to like the game. I mean when was the last time you saw me in the FIFA thread? I don't bother, you've clearly given up with PES but you cannot resist the occasional bashing. I swear there is nothing you like about this game, so I thought I'd reply.

I said above, only thing which has annoyed me is the lack of interest around tactics from the PES community, yet everyone moaning about realsim! I put time into this, i hear this demand for realism but oh, seems like nobody cares.

This sort of unrealistic defensive behaviour ruined FIFA10 & World Cup for me. With Rom's help, through some feedback we got this changed and it became much better for 11. It's good to talk about it.

Well it's still total shit the defensive lines, they are as rigid and static as ever. The amount of goals i've seen where players go to the wing, dribble past the Full back and two center backs and score. Mainly because the midfield won't bother to help out. Anyway that's enough from me.

But as much as you protest otherwise, a negative critique against PES would cause you to argue that white is black, wouldn't it?

Again, LTFC if you can see, this is why i don't see the point posting here, i know when I'm not wanted of needed, nobody need to tell me that . I'm just going to be arguing all the time. people just want to shove words in my mouth, as if a cannot take people criticism the game. Yet i've been away from how many months and left you guys to say what you want,have I jump back in constancy and hunted down everyone i don't agree with?

Well you all have your wish, no worries, no more arguing for me, no more me being an ass.

 

[nerf]

I mean on the site now, watch Mehmet Topal's goal vs Stoke, Stoke defending deep there also! But they, I'm a nutcase who's a PES fanboy.

Different situations happen all the time.

I did watch that goal, and Stoke are clearly trying to hold a line 17/18 yards out, like any defence. The only time they drop inside is when the ball actually reaches the 18 yard line.

None of those screencaps are valid because of the position of the ball. Of course if the ball is played to or beyond the 18 yard line, then the defence has to sag! Surely that goes without saying. The upper-right pic is from a cross from the byline, for goodness sake! The Seedorf one, he's just passed a through ball down the left flank to Boateng, who receives the ball behind the defensive line, so of course the Arsenal defence has to drop. He returns the ball quickly to Seedorf and they have had zero time to step up again.

So you've either deliberately picked four bogus examples to try and make a false case, or you simply have a misunderstanding of the reasons for the positioning of the defensive line and how it adjusts to the ball. The latter would explain your initial response. Maybe a positive thing from this is that you can learn something.

I don't think I need to explain any further, so we'll move on. If you don't realise why it's unrealistic for defenders to so easily relinquish shape and collapse un-forced beyond their own penalty spot like that (when the ball is clearly ahead of them), then lucky for you. It won't affect you when you see it. It sticks out like a sore thumb for me, so it often makes me wonder why it doesn't bother more people.

I don't bother, you've clearly given up with PES but you cannot resist the occasional bashing. I swear there is nothing you like about this game, so I thought I'd reply.

We were discussing Jimmy's chips and animations, I saw an example of something that always makes me wonder why people don't notice/mention it, and Jimmy asked me to explain, so I did... and at the slightest hint of a criticism (how dare anyone?), you flew in cursing.

Well you all have your wish, no worries, no more arguing for me, no more me being an ass.

 

[klashman69]

I did watch that goal, and Stoke are clearly trying to hold a line 17/18 yards out, like any defence. The only time they drop inside is when the ball actually reaches the 18 yard line.

None of those screencaps are valid because of the position of the ball. Of course if the ball is played to or beyond the 18 yard line, then the defence has to sag! Surely that goes without saying. The upper-right pic is from a cross from the byline, for goodness sake! The Seedorf one, he's just passed a through ball down the left flank to Boateng, who receives the ball behind the defensive line, so of course the Arsenal defence has to drop. He returns the ball quickly to Seedorf and they have had zero time to step up again.

Hence why i said this:

The usual circumstance is when a team plays it out wide, momentum break and they come back inside, just outside the box, the center backs sit deep and the team packs infront of goal.

Guy runs along touchline, defenders keep in line with him, the momentum breaks down, the midfielders for the team not in possession come back, then the ball is then played inside where there are 6-9, 10 players behind the ball. Which is what i was demonstrating. Sorry i didn't explain it fully.

Oh and.

Sorry you missed this:


Slam dunk, you don't like PES. Yes, let's move on!

So you've either deliberately picked four bogus examples to try and make a false case, or you simply have a misunderstanding of the reasons for the positioning of the defensive line and how it adjusts to the ball. The latter would explain your initial response. Maybe a positive thing from this is that you can learn something.

I don't think I need to explain any further, so we'll move on. If you don't realise why it's unrealistic for defenders to so easily relinquish shape and collapse un-forced beyond their own penalty spot like that (when the ball is clearly ahead of them), then lucky for you. It won't affect you when you see it. It sticks out like a sore thumb for me, so it often makes me wonder why it doesn't bother more people.

Anything can happen in football:


Football games being varied is not a bad thing. Despite the numerous flaws and bugs.

Good day! I learned that your always right and I'm always wrong.

 

[ccshopland]

I can see positives and negatives from both. Teams do 'camp' and defend in numbers ala Leverkusen v Barcelona, this was PES on counter attack to a tee. But when a lot of teams are doing it, this results in monotonous gameplay. FIFA on the other hand is a much more grid like game, and arguably doesn't have the same sort of intuitive defensive cover as PES or IRL. Unless you know how to combat FIFA by leaving your defence automated whilst controlling manually your midfielders to come back and help what you are left with is constant one on one battles, which is highly unrealistic in another way.

The problem FIFA has is that players like Carragher are left to their own devices once a move breaks down. You can have set your midfielders to DMF and have backward arrows, but IRL once a move breaks down the midfielders, especially the central two/three drop back and look immediately look to protect the defenders, sometimes doubling, sometimes, trebling.

This is why FIFA has it's problems is that it is designed to have individual player battles all over the pitch because of the players aren't programmed or intuitive enough to read the game and respond to the ball movements. This means that FIFA is more individual player based, and this is why individual player tricks come into play where you can skin your 'one on one' man all the time.

I thought PES was harder at first, then got to Superstar and found my level. After prolonged gaming on PES and going to FIFA I then was initially impressed by the AI on FIFA and thought FIFA was a right royal challenge. But as I have passed to Legendary, and have 'mastered it' to a tee, I am know at the stage where I just 'get' the game. I know the moves to unleash on my opponent and like Curd said, it is all down to slowing the game right down in the final third and playing keep ball, chances will come. In FIFA, arguably, the slower you play the game the better chance you have of winning.

And I think that's a fundamental problem with FIFA. This year the AI has been cleverer than previous years, but once I eliminate the me getting done at the corner of the 18 yard box for a one on one or tap in goal, the CPU is pretty much quite easy to contain.

Even at this stage with PES, I can't hand on heart say I have mastered it. It is just an un-masterable game IMO. Because the variables change all the time, because of the game dynamics, player movements and the fact that the AI forces the game forward in different shapes and movement, you can never quite have the same game twice.

I am still of the opinion however that PES 2012 on the PS3 is a cheat infested, partially broken let down. A modded PES now on the PC, is about the best gameplay I have ever played, with cheat scripts down to a minimum and CPU build up play varied and life-like. Why couldn't KONAMI make that?

The main problem for me with PES2012 on the PS3 is that to win on Superstar level you have to play the game like an end to end whirlwind affair. Playing on Superstar with zero assists just offers the CPU way, way too much of a handicap. Professional is the most balanced, but then possession stats are just wonky.