PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

romagnoli said:
I'm opposed to fully manual, yes. It's in FIFA, and I'm ok with that, but it doesn't give you more of a sim experience. I've never seen a convincing argument otherwise in my 3 years or so of regularly posting on here. I also don't think manual shooting makes sense as a control mechanism, and manual passing moves things further away from how football is played nowadays. The manual games I've played against veterans have always been interesting and challenging, but never more 'realistic' in terms of how moves build up. Often less realistic.

The only situation in which I'd be fine with fully manual is in Clubs or BaP/BaL, where you control just one player. Otherwise I'd rather it was mapped to a shoulder button as it is for passing in PES.
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I agree that full manual does not equate to a simulation. That is the problem all sports games now have. True replication of stats can only be duplicated by full assist which might not be much fun to play really.
Whether they choose to go with an arrow system like older PES titles which gives you a player's best/worst day or some other avenue is the question.
 
I'm not sure what the intention is that people want from 0 assistance shooting. It makes sense for passes because you're telling the player to aim into space, or to put more weight on the pass. The same for crosses - you're aiming at a space for a man in the box to run onto. For shooting the requirements are different though. If you mean you want to be able to aim more specifically within the goal, rather than just aim for either post or the centre of the goal then fine. But FIFA is about the pad controlling what the ball does; PES is about controlling what the player tries to do. Why would you want to be able to communicate to your player that you want him to miss? That's what you'd be doing, even if you're unintentionally aiming too far wide. I don't really see how that makes sense, or how that is giving you control in a way that keeps the game about the 22 on the pitch.

I guess you can argue that the power bar gives you that option now. But different players have different maximum powers that you can use effectively. It's easy to get a feel for who can leather the ball without it ballooning over, or which player is not really under control of the ball and so needs to be more careful. You can also see a graphic representation of how much you've charged up, so it's easy to learn by doing. I don't see how the same could be translated to directional aim in a meaningful, stat-related way, while keeping the ability to deliberately miss.

Sorry if this is a bit scatty, typing up from my phone.
 
lancers said:
I agree that full manual does not equate to a simulation. That is the problem all sports games now have. True replication of stats can only be duplicated by full assist which might not be much fun to play really.
Whether they choose to go with an arrow system like older PES titles which gives you a player's best/worst day or some other avenue is the question.
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I don't think you need full assistance either - that's a game of FM after all. But you can easily blend control and stat dependence to create a realistic football experience. PES 2011 was the most realistic setup so far; it just needed tweaking in certain areas which were more about the assisted side of things than the controls.
 
romagnoli said:
I'm not sure what the intention is that people want from 0 assistance shooting. It makes sense for passes because you're telling the player to aim into space, or to put more weight on the pass. The same for crosses - you're aiming at a space for a man in the box to run onto. For shooting the requirements are different though. If you mean you want to be able to aim more specifically within the goal, rather than just aim for either post or the centre of the goal then fine. But FIFA is about the pad controlling what the ball does; PES is about controlling what the player tries to do. Why would you want to be able to communicate to your player that you want him to miss? That's what you'd be doing, even if you're unintentionally aiming too far wide. I don't really see how that makes sense, or how that is giving you control in a way that keeps the game about the 22 on the pitch.

I guess you can argue that the power bar gives you that option now. But different players have different maximum powers that you can use effectively. It's easy to get a feel for who can leather the ball without it ballooning over, or which player is not really under control of the ball and so needs to be more careful. You can also see a graphic representation of how much you've charged up, so it's easy to learn by doing. I don't see how the same could be translated to directional aim in a meaningful, stat-related way, while keeping the ability to deliberately miss.

Sorry if this is a bit scatty, typing up from my phone.
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Yes by more unassisted shooting I meant more precise aiming. Using 0 assisted passing I don't take much notice of the power bar, nor do I for shooting. What does bar actually tell us? I would guess that it displays power, speed, trajectory and height of the shot. Only angle is decided by the player.
So in that power bar, a lot of information is displayed in those split seconds before you pull the trigger. In other words the information displayed is a form of assistance to the user.
Obviously a lot of other factors like ability, shooting stats and position will come into the equation, making a difference to the outcome of a shot.
The difference is that the user can see who is taking the shot and how sweet the strike will be depending on the above. What the user should not be able to see is a form of assistance on screen which displays everything about where the shot is travelling in a split second.
Ditch the power bar and let us determine all of these factors when striking the ball. That is what I mean by unassisted shooting. Exactly the same applies to crossing as well.
 
Sorry, just want to be 100% clear. You mean more precise aiming within the goal?

The issue I'd have with removing the power bar, for that matter, is that it does something more basic than giving you information about how the shot/pass/cross will then travel. It also tells you that the button press has registered and the player has been given a command. That's essential when trying to hit the ball first time, or queuing up a shot fake. If you were to remove the power bar and just leave it to the user's button press, you have to at least let them know something's going to happen. You also need to let the opponent online know something's going to happen too - otherwise a shot fake is never going to fool a human user into thinking a player is about to shoot, or they aren't going to see that the player is shaping up to shoot. You could argue that animations should do this, but I don't think either game is at that stage just yet. The animations for a wind up to a shot are too subtle due to the nature of animation systems at the moment and how far out the camera is. That's how I see it anyhow, and I doubt it'll change this gen, even with a new engine.
 
romagnoli said:
Sorry, just want to be 100% clear. You mean more precise aiming within the goal?

The issue I'd have with removing the power bar, for that matter, is that it does something more basic than giving you information about how the shot/pass/cross will then travel. It also tells you that the button press has registered and the player has been given a command. That's essential when trying to hit the ball first time, or queuing up a shot fake. If you were to remove the power bar and just leave it to the user's button press, you have to at least let them know something's going to happen. You also need to let the opponent online know something's going to happen too - otherwise a shot fake is never going to fool a human user into thinking a player is about to shoot, or they aren't going to see that the player is shaping up to shoot. You could argue that animations should do this, but I don't think either game is at that stage just yet. The animations for a wind up to a shot are too subtle due to the nature of animation systems at the moment and how far out the camera is. That's how I see it anyhow, and I doubt it'll change this gen, even with a new engine.
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Yes at the goal, more control on aiming being given to the human player.
Could be problems when playing against another human definitely with the power bar but it would edge towards realism and I think anyone who plays unassisted wouldn't mind. The CPU AI don't show us a power bar when they are passing, shooting or crossing. You just intuitively know when it is about to happen. No difference human v human.
Playing on 0 pass assistance and with the power bar off is a rewarding experience. It feels more instinctive and definitely more satisfying.
The outcome of the shot is completely down to you knowing how and when to press that button and where to aim it. Give it a go if you haven't already you'll see what I mean.
 
romagnoli said:
If you were to remove the power bar and just leave it to the user's button press, you have to at least let them know something's going to happen. You also need to let the opponent online know something's going to happen too - otherwise a shot fake is never going to fool a human user into thinking a player is about to shoot, or they aren't going to see that the player is shaping up to shoot. You could argue that animations should do this, but I don't think either game is at that stage just yet. The animations for a wind up to a shot are too subtle due to the nature of animation systems at the moment and how far out the camera is. That's how I see it anyhow, and I doubt it'll change this gen, even with a new engine.
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Isn't the power a bar a fairly recent inclusion though? I.e. post-PES 2008
 
No. It was always there, going back to ISS Pro. It's just moved from the corner of the screen a la FIFA.

Edit: it's new to passing as of 2011.
 
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Agreed with romagnoli. I do not want fully manual but enjoy 0 pass assist the game must still be stat based as its PES strong point.

When it comes to shooting as well Bendtner should not have Benzemas composure no matter how perfectly you aim your shot. Its still got to come down to the players ability.
 
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Yes shooting should be the same as 0 passing. Having limited assistance should still come down to player stats. Those who can hit it will and other players will get a goal every 20 games.
I'm just thinking about ways that they could take 0 assistance deeper and how they could eradicate the restrictions that any sort of help gives us.
The part introduction of these methods in 2012 have opened up a way forward, giving us an alternative way to play and one which has to be built upon.
 
On a real football pitch a player will instinctively perform a good pass or execute a perfect shot without thinking. They don't have a power gauge on the advertising hoardings, or on a big screen that gives them visual assistance. Exactly the same should apply to PES.
 
With the shooting precision, they should just try to map the left stick sensitivity with greater accuracy. So a slight move on the left stick will not go as wide as a shot with a full move on the left stick direction wise. And then implement the error over the top of that.
 
makky said:
On a real football pitch a player will instinctively perform a good pass or execute a perfect shot without thinking. They don't have a power gauge on the advertising hoardings, or on a big screen that gives them visual assistance. Exactly the same should apply to PES.
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That's not really the same at all to be fair. Players have more than just a stick and a button to control and weight their pass too. They have hundreds of muscles in their bodies that all affect balance, orientation, the angle of the foot, what part of the ball they connect with, the amount of leg lift and follow through, and are able to make adjustments even as they're part way through the entire process. Representing that as a button press of n hundredths of a second and a stick is very abstract to say the least. You cannot really use the power bar to guarantee a perfect weighting in PES, except for free kicks and penalties (which I agree could both be improved by removing the power bar in 0 assistance mode); for pretty much everything else it is (or should be) a guide regarding all of the above, not a guarantee.

I'm not saying I'm dead against it; just that, unless I've forgotten an obvious example, I don't think the power bar leads to inch perfect shots or passes in normal play. Plus again, having something that tells you that your button press has been registered is essential. I remember that much from switching off the gauge last year.
 
I agree Rom. The bar comes in very handy. And also it's a useful reference point with relation to player individuality. For example, I know one of my players has enough shot power in his stats to only require a half fill of the power bar and he will hit a rocket. Whereas, I also know that another player on my team needs an almost filled power bar to even worry the keeper.

You also need to press R2 while the gauge is up on screen to hit R2 controlled shots. I'm sure you could work it out without the power bar, but it does make it a lot easier...as well as when you need to cancel a pass or shot, as mentioned above.
 
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:BYE: There will be not new engine for PES 2013 , sorry @lons_pl
The game will be just update version of PES 2012 ;), Adam from WENB say it .

Adam said:
Nicely put Alan.

I'm currently in talks with Konami about PES 2013 & the new engine for new consoles. They've made a decision to focus the new engine, and make it exclusively for the generation ahead. I'm torn by this decision, the new tech was planned for this year, but not anymore. The whole team, as in all senior Konami staff, are in Japan and plans are being set in stone for the future of PES.

I do want to say, just because it's not a new engine doesn't mean this year won't see some key advancements. Stay tuned for some great announcements.
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AntrAcsA said:
:BYE: There will be not new engine for PES 2013 , sorry @lons_pl
The game will be just update version of PES 2012 ;), Adam from WENB say it .
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Yes...and more info from Adam:

"Core parts of the game have been rebuilt. The possible issues will be how they are Incorporated into the current engine.

Now is not the time to worry.

There's a lot of positives alongside the obvious negative. First of all, PES will launch onto the new machines emphatically. Secondly, the current game will be exclusively built from fan feedback.

Read a lot into the last sentence. Like I said you guys will be very happy. Some of the stuff implemented and then shown will make you think it's a new engine."
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nerf said:
It isn't, though, is it? The suggestion that Manual controls in FIFA have completely zero assistance and are unaffected by attributes is incorrect.
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That's not the main problem I have with manual gameplay (though the suggestion that there is enough attribute dependency in FIFA's manual controls is more than just incorrect - not least since the dependency is more about adding to inaccuracy, whereas I'm pretty sure PES does improve passing accuracy based on stats too, in spite of the 0 assistance claim). The main issue now for me is that the way the game plays out in manual is a move away from how football is actually played. That's based on first hand experience playing with manual users, and on the YouTube vids I've seen of manual matches. It slows the play down, sure, but it also leads to affectations in the play that I don't think can be remedied easily at all.

In short, I'm convinced you need the whole semi-passing (or 0 assistance perhaps), manual everything else setup to keep the play in line with high level football.
 
You'll never get full manual, this would ruin the game completely. You'd have players who in real life are poor at passing or shooting doings things they could never do in reality based on how good the game player is. Player attributes has to be a factor and the position you player is to the ball, what foot that player is best at using. There are many thing involved which will make pes never be fully manual and surely most people wouldn't want this.
 
I think player stats dictating the outcome (with a manual modifier) is the best method. The only problem PES has is that the implementation of stats results in the best players having too quick a passing/shooting speed and the worst players too much inaccuracy.

Let's face it, the "worst" players in the PES database are still professional footballers arent't they? They're not playing football in a park or an amateur league.

A lot of these people CAN make good passes or shots but their inaccuracy is more evident under any kind of pressure or complex situation (e.g. the longer the pass or shot). So it would be nice if stats could play out in a way that there was individuality still but that the better players performed with greater accuracy when a lesser player would fluff the pass or shot. Not just make the good players on 80's and 90's and the weak players
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
I think player stats dictating the outcome (with a manual modifier) is the best method. The only problem PES has is that the implementation of stats results in the best players having too quick a passing/shooting speed and the worst players too much inaccuracy.

Let's face it, the "worst" players in the PES database are still professional footballers arent't they? They're not playing football in a park or an amateur league.

A lot of these people CAN make good passes or shots but their inaccuracy is more evident under any kind of pressure or complex situation (e.g. the longer the pass or shot). So it would be nice if stats could play out in a way that there was individuality still but that the better players performed with greater accuracy when a lesser player would fluff the pass or shot. Not just make the good players on 80's and 90's and the weak players
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but thats what old pes was all about.

You get a crap centre back but with all the time in the world you could score a 30 yrd screamer if you pressed the right buttons facing right way at right time..hard to do but easier with no pressure. in a match hadrly ever happened. It was like the default master league players were shit but you could score if you had enough time but any pressure and theyd cock up even the strikers.

However, take a player like Ronaldo or adriano he could be falling on his arse spinning upside down u could over hit the power bar and aim too far left but youd still score!!!

thats what pes did so well back in the old days at replicating life like reality of players.

Youre crappy but tall centre forward could win headers but couldnt score with his feet in a brothel. Or your fast forwards woudl outpace the defenders but had no chance winning crosses etc...

PES had indiviusality perfected for its time in the old generation.
 
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So what we're saying is they've got the right idea but the balance between player stats and the actual game players skill is just not right yet. I believe this is more the case. Gameplay modders can alter the stats ingame so could this be tested to get that balance closer to making the game more realistic.
 
Yes I believe this is correct. This is why when it's playing well, there's something special about the game. Despite the obvious animations issues, the stat implmentation and interaction with the engine (current or future) is where the game could be really polished up I think.

I did read a few weeks back that they are re-visiting how they map some stats for PES 2013. Maybe this will help improve the game.

As chimps with quiffs has found, no one should really have stats in the 50/60's or even high 80's or 90's. not the way they currently translate to on the pitch actions anyway.
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
Yes I believe this is correct. This is why when it's playing well, there's something special about the game. Despite the obvious animations issues, the stat implmentation and interaction with the engine (current or future) is where the game could be really polished up I think.

I did read a few weeks back that they are re-visiting how they map some stats for PES 2013. Maybe this will help improve the game.

As chimps with quiffs has found, no one should really have stats in the 50/60's or even high 80's or 90's. not the way they currently translate to on the pitch actions anyway.
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The gap between the good players and the normal/bad is too much to the point where the game play suffers.

The very top players are way too good and unbalance the game to the point it's just not entertaining going past multiple players as you can turn so much quicker than they can. This is why a great number of the people who play the game a lot do not use Barcelona or Madrid as it just doesn't feel right or pose a challange

Also they use cheap methods as defining player quality by giving players at smaller club default physical stats, much lower than those at bigger clubs. Why should a player at Swansea or Bolton automatically have lower stamina, balance, response or explosive power than those at Man Utd? These aren't skill stats, they are physical and using them to make some teams better than others seems a cheat and making this realistically balanced makes the skill of a player stand out more as many more teams are able to give you a challanging game and need skillfull players and effort to beat them.
 
Unfortunately I think that's a side effect of not having terribly advanced AI. That's not a dig at PES, it's the same across the board with most sports titles. Making people physically stronger and faster had long been the staple way for programmers to differentiate between players who are 'good', 'average, and 'poor'.

I'm sure one day there'll be a good representation of ability between players but until that day we're stuck with physical stats dominating over everything else.
 
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