PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Firstly, footballers switching to FIFA. To be fair I missed out gameplay simply because I was talking about authenticity vs simulation. I did say PES is an otherwise inferior game though - for basic gameplay, FIFA is by far the more accessible and generally playable game. Take football out of the equation and there's no contest.

I think the full version of 2012 is ok, but not what I thought it would be from my day or so of playing 1 in every 3 games against people who play fairly. Most people here were similarly becreamed when they played Demo 1, after all. There are a few balancing issues that are way off, and it only takes one or two of those to drastically change the quality of the experience. Similarly things like possession stats or parking the bus were never going to be spotted by us without any single player time.

But I've played a fair amount of the copy of FIFA 12 EA sent me, and plenty of PES 2012, and while I feel 2012 is certainly a step back in terms of simulating certain more cerebral aspects of the sport, it's still far closer than FIFA which is designed around the parts and never the whole. I still feel it is a lot easier to have an intelligent game of football with 2012, and while I've sent EA a fuckton of posts and feedback as to how to achieve the same, the likelihood of them getting there is less than the chances of Konami getting up to scratch. That's simply because (a)it's harder to create the nuances of football than it is to create high quality generic game tech, and (b)EA don't need to change. Why spend that effort making the game more intelligent and cultured when it doesn't need it to sell on a Call Of Duty scale? When a large portion of the market wouldn't notice compared to something visually obvious?
 
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romagnoli said:
Firstly, footballers switching to FIFA. To be fair I missed out gameplay simply because I was talking about authenticity vs simulation. I did say PES is an otherwise inferior game though - for basic gameplay, FIFA is by far the more accessible and generally playable game. Take football out of the equation and there's no contest.
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Not to mention that PES was, overall, the more authentic game back then too. Graphics, animations and ball physics were all far more believable than FIFA's offering, and the gap in presentation, effective use of licensing and all other areas was not nearly as great. I jumped ship for FIFA 08 and didn't really play much PES till 2011 so I can see why they did it; PES 2008&9 were particularly poor titles, while FIFAs 08&09 were brimming with potential. Sadly they still haven't sorted out where the emphasis of the gameplay is, and there's no sense of teamwork or being on the same wavelength as much of your team as there still often is in PES. Hence why I'm currently more of a PES player than FIFA, but hardly an ardent 24/7 addict.
 
Primepeace said:
is there anyway to stop the cpu players on pro and top ?
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Most of the time you can stop them.
You have to be very patient when defending though. Don't rush in for tackles or they can make you look silly. Try and make sure, that when you have possession make it count and keep the ball as much as you possibly can. Take your chances when you get them and don't be afraid to play them at their own game i.e, fast paced counter attacking football.
Of course, this is only a rough guide and while it works for me it might not for others. Also watch out for them near the ends of both halves as they really step it up a gear at this stage especially if they're losing.
Good luck. It's a challenge but it's a challenge I thoroughly enjoy.
 
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Jimmy G-Force said:
It's a sad state of affairs, but I'm just sticking to the FL thread from here on in. I'm 100% done with the rest. I dont have the desire, heart or effort anymore. It's like preaching Christianity to Muslims.
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Good riddance. Oh wait didn't he say he was going to leave once before and made a big fuss but then cameback. Drama queen.

Arrogance is the tool of those who have no argument.

I enjoyed PES 2011 a lot, mainly because it was going in the right direction. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't end to end. That's the main problem in PES right now. I play with full manual and no assistance. Lower teams do have a better feel.

The other problem, which is intrinsically connected to the one above, is that the AI is too direct. It just wants to go forward, no possession play from them and then they pack the box with 9 defenders. While your teammate AI is really good, I really like it, the opposing AI is just going forward non stop. It takes away from the experience too much, specially when you play against big teams that should be dominating you. Not the other way around.
 
I've finally got PES running smoothly and it's much more enjoyable, I have to say. One problem I'm having is that on set pieces I like to use the right stick to choose the man I want the ball sent into but it won't let me select a certain player (in the case of my CL campaign with Napoli, that player is Cavani) which is quite annoying! Has anyone else experienced this?

Hope this doesn't get lost amidst all the debating.
 
StayingPower said:
I've finally got PES running smoothly and it's much more enjoyable, I have to say. One problem I'm having is that on set pieces I like to use the right stick to choose the man I want the ball sent into but it won't let me select a certain player (in the case of my CL campaign with Napoli, that player is Cavani) which is quite annoying! Has anyone else experienced this?

Hope this doesn't get lost amidst all the debating.
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Move the player you are controlling next to Cavani and then try. It happens to me as well. It's normally with your Striker where this problem arises.
 
Can someone please help me. My game of Football Life keeps freezing when I try and advance. Is there any way around this? I don't want to lose all my hard work!!
 
romagnoli said:
Because it isn't a better sim. I know that.
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So you're also attuned to the perceptions, psychology, and motivations of 'Messi & co.'? Is your claim a disguised 'thick footballer' smear?* Please abandon that preposterous line of reasoning. There's already enough magical thinking surrounding this touchy topic.

What is a sim? Who gets to decide? Is it a consensus -- if so, a consensus of whom? And who gets to decide that its/their view is the authoritative, final one?

[*fair enough in Wayne Rooney's case.]
 
I don't see for a single second what is preposterous about suggesting that Messi might have a more casual perspective on games than Xaor. I've never really used the professional footballer argument, in either FIFA or PES's case, for that reason.

As for who decides what a sim is - the rational mind decides. Luckily I've been blessed with one of those. Knowing what I do about what aspects of football FIFA actually even attempts to model behind the scenes, and seeing how the friendly and opposition AI works and how that influences users to play online, it's all too apparent that FIFA is a simulation of the topmost layer of the sport, but doesn't delve beyond that. The fact that you choose your kit, formation and lineup before you know who you're playing against is symptomatic of how EA view the situation too.

It's a very good game, sure. But it should be fairly obvious to the majority why and where it doesn't simulate football beyond disparate individual details. If it isn't, then ask politely and I'm sure someone with the inclination will get you up to speed.
 
romagnoli said:
I don't see for a single second what is preposterous about suggesting that Messi might have a more casual perspective on games than Xaor.
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Xaor, yet another one who was banging on about how amazing PES 2012 was after playing it at Adam's. No matter how many times Xaor tells you PES is an amazing sim it's simply not true, you could maybe argue PES 2011 was a half sim but 12 has went the other way to mostly arcade style like Fifa.
 
Most everyone here was banging on about how good PES was after demo 1 came out. What's your point?

Xaor doesn't have to tell me, I know for myself that PES is more of a sim than FIFA. Didn't I literally answer the exact same points last time you tried (=failed) to post something multilayered or enlightening?
 
Flaw3d Genuis said:
Xaor, yet another one who was banging on about how amazing PES 2012 was after playing it at Adam's. No matter how many times Xaor tells you PES is an amazing sim it's simply not true, you could maybe argue PES 2011 was a half sim but 12 has went the other way to mostly arcade style like Fifa.
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We all were after demo 1.
 
romagnoli said:
I don't see for a single second what is preposterous about suggesting that Messi might have a more casual perspective on games than Xaor.

As for who decides what a sim is - the rational mind decides. Luckily I've been blessed with one of those.
But you didn't originally 'suggest' that Messi & co.'s footy gaming sensibilities are coarse and unconsidered. You originally presented it as an assertion, not a suggestion. That was preposterous, as any rational person would admit. But not on the Internet, of course. Never!

Please tell me everything about football games.
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I'm happy with leaving it as is, given that I assume I'm talking to people who breathe through their nose and have the mental capacity to read something like my post and infer that I am not talking as someone who has just got off the phone with Messi about this very topic. I'm not going to waste time worrying whether I've put IMO when it's embedded in the subject matter, nor am I going to see the argument that I haven't as a valid counterpoint. It's just adding 1 to the thread post count without achieving anything.

I've got several years worth of archived posts. If you want to know everything about football games, click on my username and read away.
 
Dont know if this has been discussed already but Konami have put up shooting tips on their webpage.

http://www.konami-pes2012.com/eu/en/2011/12/pes-2012-tip-the-controlled-shot/

Had no idea that for a finesse shot you had to press it after the shoot button no wonder i thought there was no difference between a power shot and finesse, seems a back to front way of doing things.



Here there are tips on kicking, it says goal kicks but they mean kicking at the goal (Konami like to do things weirdly)

http://www.konami-pes2012.com/eu/en/2011/12/pes-2012-tip-shot-power-as-an-influencing-factor/

Again another tutorial which it says is goal kicks but infact it means shooting, this time on aiming/placement.

http://www.konami-pes2012.com/eu/en/2011/12/pes-2012-tip-correct-alignment-for-goal-kicks/
 
romagnoli said:
Firstly, footballers switching to FIFA. To be fair I missed out gameplay simply because I was talking about authenticity vs simulation. I did say PES is an otherwise inferior game though - for basic gameplay, FIFA is by far the more accessible and generally playable game. Take football out of the equation and there's no contest.

I think the full version of 2012 is ok, but not what I thought it would be from my day or so of playing 1 in every 3 games against people who play fairly. Most people here were similarly becreamed when they played Demo 1, after all. There are a few balancing issues that are way off, and it only takes one or two of those to drastically change the quality of the experience. Similarly things like possession stats or parking the bus were never going to be spotted by us without any single player time.

But I've played a fair amount of the copy of FIFA 12 EA sent me, and plenty of PES 2012, and while I feel 2012 is certainly a step back in terms of simulating certain more cerebral aspects of the sport, it's still far closer than FIFA which is designed around the parts and never the whole. I still feel it is a lot easier to have an intelligent game of football with 2012, and while I've sent EA a fuckton of posts and feedback as to how to achieve the same, the likelihood of them getting there is less than the chances of Konami getting up to scratch. That's simply because (a)it's harder to create the nuances of football than it is to create high quality generic game tech, and (b)EA don't need to change. Why spend that effort making the game more intelligent and cultured when it doesn't need it to sell on a Call Of Duty scale? When a large portion of the market wouldn't notice compared to something visually obvious?
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Spot on.

If FIFA could get up to scratch on the football nuances, there would be no reason for me to play PES, given it's behind the 8-ball on the other visual aspects. Despite all that, however, FIFA still lacks some things which to me are downright annoying lol.

For starters, there's still too many times when a player gets 1 v 1 with the keeper. And secondly, the damn turning cirles!!
 
Flaw3d Genuis said:
Dont know if this has been discussed already but Konami have put up shooting tips on their webpage.

http://www.konami-pes2012.com/eu/en/2011/12/pes-2012-tip-the-controlled-shot/

Had no idea that for a finesse shot you had to press it after the shoot button no wonder i thought there was no difference between a power shot and finesse, seems a back to front way of doing things.



Here there are tips on kicking, it says goal kicks but they mean kicking at the goal (Konami like to do things weirdly)

http://www.konami-pes2012.com/eu/en/2011/12/pes-2012-tip-shot-power-as-an-influencing-factor/

Again another tutorial which it says is goal kicks but infact it means shooting, this time on aiming/placement.

http://www.konami-pes2012.com/eu/en/2011/12/pes-2012-tip-correct-alignment-for-goal-kicks/
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Not to be rude here mate but the controlled shot was like that last year also (and possibly since the beginning?) but it's written in the manual that you press R2 AFTERWARDS.

It's different to FIFA in that regard and perhaps they could allow you to hold the button while you shoot to make things easier. Although, I suppose pressing it afterwards may be useful in some situations.

Would be nice if the swerve stat affected how much a player can curl the ball on normal shots as well as free kicks. At the moment, you need the special skill card to get real movement on the ball. I don't think everyone should be able to hit finesse type shots with the same effectiveness of FIFA, but there should be a bit more randomness regarding the ball physics.

One example in particular, is that on FIFA, you can hit a shot that bounces/dips before the keeper and it goes in for a goal. On PES, that same ball trajectory does happen but I've not had one beat the keeper like this. Anyone seen that go in on PES?
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
Not to be rude here mate but the controlled shot was like that last year also (and possibly since the beginning?) but it's written in the manual that you press R2 AFTERWARDS.
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Didnt play much of PES 2011 at all as didnt think it was upto much compared to the PS2 games, i must start reading manuals ;)

CalcioCalabrese said:
It's different to FIFA in that regard and perhaps they could allow you to hold the button while you shoot to make things easier. Although, I suppose pressing it afterwards may be useful in some situations.
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Back when PES was great you would hold it before pressing shoot, it just makes more sense that way feels unnatural the way it is now.

CalcioCalabrese said:
Would be nice if the swerve stat affected how much a player can curl the ball on normal shots as well as free kicks. At the moment, you need the special skill card to get real movement on the ball. I don't think everyone should be able to hit finesse type shots with the same effectiveness of FIFA, but there should be a bit more randomness regarding the ball physics.
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Yeah again back when PES was great it was like that.

Agree with you also about those turning circles in Fifa, PES is much better in this regard as players can turn on a dime and in a instant ie: as soon as you press the direction in PES it happens in Fifa it can be much later.
 
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The thing with R2 is it's timiming and influence is such a significant factor and the effect it has on player behaviour varies. It can be used in every aspect of the game, whether taking a first touch, threading an accurate pass between two defenders. The timing and duration of use change what players do in every single facette of the game. Pressing R2 after shooting, while the power guage is on results in a controlled shot. If you hold it in before, but release it as he shoots, the player side foot it. If you hold it in from before you shoot till after the shot is away, the player composes himself and uses good technique but removes little power. The same timing mechanism is applied to R1, and other actions. If Konami had to produce a manual for all this it would probably be as thick as telephone directory. The game is too deep, and the price factor deem it an unfeasible exercise.
 
r2 shot has been like that since pes5 or pes6 when it was first introduced.

konami should introduce an "advance tutorial" for subtle things (mostly ri r2 and l2 stuff). current tutorials are quite frankly useless. I rember you could actually buy some advance tutorial manuals back in the days.

Still i think it would be about time to introduce shooting with the right stick nba2k like. So i could choose what sort of shot i want. Right now the cpu decide for itself. put 4-5 main shots on the right analog and i'll be happy with that. Same with crossing.
 
cr381veconcepts said:
The thing with R2 is it's timiming and influence is such a significant factor and the effect it has on player behaviour varies. It can be used in every aspect of the game, whether taking a first touch, threading an accurate pass between two defenders. The timing and duration of use change what players do in every single facette of the game. Pressing R2 after shooting, while the power guage is on results in a controlled shot. If you hold it in before, but release it as he shoots, the player side foot it. If you hold it in from before you shoot till after the shot is away, the player composes himself and uses good technique but removes little power. The same timing mechanism is applied to R1, and other actions. If Konami had to produce a manual for all this it would probably be as thick as telephone directory. The game is too deep, and the price factor deem it an unfeasible exercise.
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But you just explained it in 1 paragraph...:BOP:
 
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