PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

makky said:
@ ccshopland: I quite like the size of the pitches, as it gives you scope for more expansive play.
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It's whether people want a realistic sim or not though. The trouble at the moment is that if the CPU don't park the bus, and try and pressure you in your defence, then it is too easy to just pass into midfield where there is acres of space. This isn't realistic.

So the options are re-jig the whole system so that CPU players are more responsive/intelligent to cutting down space, or perhaps the easier thing coding wise would be to reduced the playing area slightly.

At the moment offline, I'm playing some stunning football, but it shouldn't really be this easy for me to do as Liverpool. There's far too much space available and I feel I don't have to work that hard to get it. Now the problem is the pitch needs to be this size if all the teams park the bus ala 1.02 patch, because then you need every inch to manipulate the CPU 10 players all bogged into the penalty area.
 
ccshopland said:
It's whether people want a realistic sim or not though. The trouble at the moment is that if the CPU don't park the bus, and try and pressure you in your defence, then it is too easy to just pass into midfield where there is acres of space. This isn't realistic.

So the options are re-jig the whole system so that CPU players are more responsive/intelligent to cutting down space, or perhaps the easier thing coding wise would be to reduced the playing area slightly.

At the moment offline, I'm playing some stunning football, but it shouldn't really be this easy for me to do as Liverpool. There's far too much space available and I feel I don't have to work that hard to get it. Now the problem is the pitch needs to be this size if all the teams park the bus ala 1.02 patch, because then you need every inch to manipulate the CPU 10 players all bogged into the penalty area.
Click to expand...
Quite a conundrum Konami have made for themselves there, and a brilliant observation.
I think the only way to go is for the first option. Changing the system so the CPU players actually press in order to obtain possession in the midfield area.
That way the size of the pitch wouldn't matter because the game would pan out more realistically.
A parked bus on a smaller pitch? Gives me nightmares just thinking about it.
 
Northzzz said:
That's what i thought and after a couple of games of trying to do control shot i noticed it wasn't happening and now LT is control shot for me. I just checked this in free training.

RT puts on more power. It's akin to the way it works in Fifa if you're familiar with that. Personally it surprised me. I quite like it but it's hard to use because more power means more elevation, which means it basically goes over the bar everytime.

Just checking but by control shot you meant the shot that opts for less power and more accuracy (i.e for placing it) right?
Click to expand...

I've got the bottom of this. RT for me is the little dink thing but only when you're inside the box. Outside the box it turns into a power strike. Can somebody confirm whether this is in an unmodded game?
 
ccshopland said:
It's whether people want a realistic sim or not though. The trouble at the moment is that if the CPU don't park the bus, and try and pressure you in your defence, then it is too easy to just pass into midfield where there is acres of space. This isn't realistic.

So the options are re-jig the whole system so that CPU players are more responsive/intelligent to cutting down space, or perhaps the easier thing coding wise would be to reduced the playing area slightly.

At the moment offline, I'm playing some stunning football, but it shouldn't really be this easy for me to do as Liverpool. There's far too much space available and I feel I don't have to work that hard to get it. Now the problem is the pitch needs to be this size if all the teams park the bus ala 1.02 patch, because then you need every inch to manipulate the CPU 10 players all bogged into the penalty area.
Click to expand...

Have you tried my latest file other than the one game?
 
makky said:
Quite a conundrum Konami have made for themselves there, and a brilliant observation.
I think the only way to go is for the first option. Changing the system so the CPU players actually press in order to obtain possession in the midfield area.
That way the size of the pitch wouldn't matter because the game would pan out more realistically.
A parked bus on a smaller pitch? Gives me nightmares just thinking about it.
Click to expand...

I really agree with this, the AI does need a far better sense of shutting down space in midfield. It's my major gripe with the game. Even with a crappy ML default player like Ruskin I can on occasion control a short throw from my keeper and sprint at least 60 yards before I meet another player. And that ain't right.
 
Haven't been here in a while so I'm not up to date on what people have been saying about the game, but I have a question that I hope can be answered sincerely.

Is PES 2012 worth the buy?

Consider the following: I was a big fan of PES2011 and liked just about everything about it except for the exploits that everyone is well aware of (i.e ground crosses, lobbed pass from kickoff, etc); however, I downloaded both 2012 demos and didn't like either of them as it felt like they were going towards a more arcade style game than 2011. Maybe to appease, or lure the FIFA converts back to PES. I'm not really sure why they did this. There were things I liked about the demos like the menus and the improved run making and animations.

Is 2012 just a polished version of the demos, or did it go back to 2011's slower, grittier base?
 
praying-mantis32 said:
Is 2012 just a polished version of the demos, or did it go back to 2011's slower, grittier base?
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I think it feels a little slower and more controllable than the demos. That's with v. 1.02 and game speed -1. For offline play I think you'd like it. I really enjoyed 2011 but enjoy 2012 much more.

I haven't played MLO yet, but I think you might want to skip it if you want to play for the MLO like I did last year, from what I gather from the forums, it's a bit of a mess this year because of the assistance levels. But if you can find some people to play online with using low or zero assistance settings, I think you'd enjoy it.

Of course, it's hard to recommend the game when there's such a big difference of opinion 'round here...
 
Chimps-with-quiffs said:
I will have an updated file out in the next few days

I have spent a couple of hours tonight re-editing premier league teams to make them more responsive and more naturally paced. Some teams were too fast and have been slowed slightly and others have been made more dangerous up front.

Also edited a lot of Spanish teams further as well as the big three portuguese teams.

I will give the german teams another go and then release another file out soon.
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Really interested to see how this will play. I'm currently using your latest file for V 1.02 and to be honest I'm not finding it as enjoyable as the one you did for V 1.01, which I thought was amazing.

I play ML with Swansea on Top Player, and on V1.01 it was so realistic, both the scorelines and the balance of the gameplay. However in V1.02, for some reason I feel it plays more like 1.01 did wothout your edit file (if you know what I mean). Where the CPU are too difficult to break down and too deadily in attack. In one game last night, I was 5-0 at half time against Newcastle (10min game)...I simply couldn't get the ball off them in my final third....really frustrating. So for now, I'm going to revert back to your file for V1.01 (which also plays brilliantly with the Konamis 1.02 update) but I'll still be giving your updates a whirl.

Sorry to criticise your efforts and don't get me wrong, thanks to your work, I'm enjoying this game FAR more than I was than the retail version.
 
The trouble with PES12 is that the game is totally schizophrenic. Problem is its making my posts sound schizophrenic as well. You all must think I’m mad.
You can play 4 games and love it then come back the next day play another 4 and hate it. It seems to be a vicious circle.
PES12 really is a love/hate game this year.
I really disliked PES08 & PES09. Loved PES10. Disliked PES11 but Love/Hate PES12

The other night I started a ML with A Madrid. I played 2 games. Lost 0-1 (friendly) and 1-2 (league game).
I really enjoyed the games as they ebbed and flowed and had some great goal mouth action.

Then last night I manage to get in 4 games and seriously disliked them all. Don’t get me wrong I scored a wonderful glancing header with Falco that made me jump in the air with delight - Old PES style, but the actual games were just so un-enjoyable.

The usual problems kept cropping up. AI parking the bus. Too many fouls so the games didn’t get going. Random shooting in that one minute you can hit a pile driver the next it trickles into the keepers arms. Keepers crazy decisions by coming racing off their line for no reason. The AI just walking through my defense when it wants to. I never get a penalty when chopped down in the box but the AI do. Defenders bumping into each other.

Every bone in my body is asking me “why am I putting up with this crap? Go and get Fifa12 (again)”

Trouble is I don’t get a lot of enjoyment out of Fifa either. I really wish that PES would implement the good stuff from Fifa. Just small things like when the keeper handles the ball outside the box when kicking from his hands it’s a free kick and yellow card. Drop ball if you kick it out when someone is injured. Fifa do this really well.
I just find all the game modes dull on Fifa although apart from the crazy transfers I don’t find it annoying like the Master League this year.

What the hell were Konami thinking this year? The players moaning is driving me up the wall. Diego has asked for a change of number 3 times in 3 weeks.
Players are asking to be rested after one game. Players moaning that they are a LMF and playing as an AMF. Finally the transfer windows closes and you don’t even know it!

There’s always something that makes me want to keep PES but this year it’s really trying my patience. I’ve already had it and traded it once and every bone in my body is saying get rid of it again. The game just feels so rigid and scripted but most disappointingly of all stale and dated.

Did anyone see the review on WENB for PES12? Those guys gave the game 9/10 and my hopes were so high for this year’s effort. But am left now so disappointed.
The guy on WENB has given tips like change the colour (this one I do agree with), make the screen smaller and only play games in the day in certain stadiums. Change this and that. Stand on your head etc etc.

What utter nonsense. Do you do all this mucking around with any other game? They are trying to justify their 9/10 score but now see the mess the game has become. The game is only a 6/10 at best. It hurts saying that but that’s the truth of the matter.

Wait for my next schizophrenic post when I have either totally fallen in love with the game again, traded it or the game has driven me to a nervous breakdown!!!
 
mnj said:
Really interested to see how this will play. I'm currently using your latest file for V 1.02 and to be honest I'm not finding it as enjoyable as the one you did for V 1.01, which I thought was amazing.

I play ML with Swansea on Top Player, and on V1.01 it was so realistic, both the scorelines and the balance of the gameplay. However in V1.02, for some reason I feel it plays more like 1.01 did wothout your edit file (if you know what I mean). Where the CPU are too difficult to break down and too deadily in attack. In one game last night, I was 5-0 at half time against Newcastle (10min game)...I simply couldn't get the ball off them in my final third....really frustrating. So for now, I'm going to revert back to your file for V1.01 (which also plays brilliantly with the Konamis 1.02 update) but I'll still be giving your updates a whirl.

Sorry to criticise your efforts and don't get me wrong, thanks to your work, I'm enjoying this game FAR more than I was than the retail version.
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Thanks for the feedback, I would much rather know. I think this may be down to Swansea being missed out when I was testing changes to the new file. I will have a look at them before I send out an update, in fact I am sure they will need improving. I slowed the game down by changing the passing speeds of the top teams and then increased the movements stats of a lot of players so the game felt smoother and increased the ability of forwards so they could cause you problems, if I missed a team out with these changes they would probably struggle like you said.

I loved 1.01 with my first patch on and was really reluctant to put 1.02 on as I knew it wouldn’t be the same and would need more work. Konami patch 1.02 made the game more like Demo 1, which was a good thing, but with some top players now way overrated at dribbling and made some teams feel way too fast at passing. The combination of my 1.01 option file and 1.02 Konami patch will be fine with teams like Swansea as they won’t have players who are overrated, but I suspect if you played with this setup against someone like Milan Imbrahimavic would be able to dribble past your whole team and the same goes for a few teams. Being 5 – 0 down at half time in a ten minute game is mental though.
 
Northzzz said:
That's what i thought and after a couple of games of trying to do control shot i noticed it wasn't happening and now LT is control shot for me. I just checked this in free training.

RT puts on more power. It's akin to the way it works in Fifa if you're familiar with that. Personally it surprised me. I quite like it but it's hard to use because more power means more elevation, which means it basically goes over the bar everytime.

Just checking but by control shot you meant the shot that opts for less power and more accuracy (i.e for placing it) right?
Click to expand...

I use the FIFA style button config. After I power up, pressing LT does a controlled shot - usually a finesse shot. Haven't tried the RT modifier after a shot. Is that your sprint button?

Also, if you hold the chip button LB/L1 as you shoot (not after) it will sometimes do a curler, depending where the players are. It's not always a chip shot.
 
Chimps-with-quiffs said:
Thanks for the feedback, I would much rather know. I think this may be down to Swansea being missed out when I was testing changes to the new file. I will have a look at them before I send out an update, in fact I am sure they will need improving. I slowed the game down by changing the passing speeds of the top teams and then increased the movements stats of a lot of players so the game felt smoother and increased the ability of forwards so they could cause you problems, if I missed a team out with these changes they would probably struggle like you said.

I loved 1.01 with my first patch on and was really reluctant to put 1.02 on as I knew it wouldn’t be the same and would need more work. Konami patch 1.02 made the game more like Demo 1, which was a good thing, but with some top players now way overrated at dribbling and made some teams feel way too fast at passing. The combination of my 1.01 option file and 1.02 Konami patch will be fine with teams like Swansea as they won’t have players who are overrated, but I suspect if you played with this setup against someone like Milan Imbrahimavic would be able to dribble past your whole team and the same goes for a few teams. Being 5 – 0 down at half time in a ten minute game is mental though.
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NOO CHIMPS, don't make it easier lol, that's what I don't want!!!

When is the full release of your work out mater, I'll give it a good go then, do the CPU keep possession more? That's what I'm looking for really.
 
pes4lyfe said:
thats what I do now but thats unrealsitic. so it sucks also but theres no other options?
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i also play normal league mode...and i want to play with accumulated fatigue ON, becauase otherwise it is very unrealistic...but there are a lot of players, who, even not playing for 10 games now, remain at 50% stamina....that really sucks.....so what can i do to improve that, except turning accumulated fatigue off???? What would happen if i would raise stamina to a value like 90 or 100 for every player, or is there another ability that counts for that??? And is there a tool where i can easily modify those values for all players at once...becasue i think this is just possible with the PES editing studio from that czech guy, and that is not released for 2012 yet, right????
 
For me the defending is an art on pes 2012. At times it's just fantastic, you have to stay totally focussed for the entire match. You lose focus , you lose the match. It's simply stunning, i lose my matches and i'm blaming myself rather than the game, this was not the case with previous editions.

I know there are problems and it's not perfect, but if i did focus on the things that are not right, then i would probably not enjoy playing pes 2012 as much as i do.

I must also thank chimps for his hard work, and everyone else who has contributed. they have done stellar work on pes 2012.
 
ccshopland said:
NOO CHIMPS, don't make it easier lol, that's what I don't want!!!

When is the full release of your work out mater, I'll give it a good go then, do the CPU keep possession more? That's what I'm looking for really.
Click to expand...

I am not saying I need to make it easier, just that one team may have been missed out when I was editing and testing them and would then seem less responsive than other teams and wouldn't be able to attack as well.

After I amend them they will pose more of a threat upfront and will defend better. So if you play against them they will be more challanging to play against and if you use them, you will be on a level playing field as previously re-edited teams.

I have no idea when it will be complete. I have said that this years game will get progressively better as I keep editing new teams and tweaking those I have already done. This way people dont have to wait months for a game play file which has everything complete and I can make changes based on feedback to get the best game play and I don't lose my mind doing everything at once.

The teams most people are likely to ever use will be complete soon and in doing them, most international teams will be already done as they will have the same players. I am looking forward to a world cup with the edited teams, its something I never used to play, but with the increased difficulty it's much more challanging and entertaining.
 
praying-mantis32 said:
Haven't been here in a while so I'm not up to date on what people have been saying about the game, but I have a question that I hope can be answered sincerely.

Is PES 2012 worth the buy?

Consider the following: I was a big fan of PES2011 and liked just about everything about it except for the exploits that everyone is well aware of (i.e ground crosses, lobbed pass from kickoff, etc); however, I downloaded both 2012 demos and didn't like either of them as it felt like they were going towards a more arcade style game than 2011. Maybe to appease, or lure the FIFA converts back to PES. I'm not really sure why they did this. There were things I liked about the demos like the menus and the improved run making and animations.

Is 2012 just a polished version of the demos, or did it go back to 2011's slower, grittier base?
Click to expand...

I would advise to buy the game i like it and i have played all PES games.

Else you can rent it. You need to play at least 10-20 games in order to judge it. I think its good eventhough i still struggle a bit on pro which i never play.
 
praying-mantis32 said:
Haven't been here in a while so I'm not up to date on what people have been saying about the game, but I have a question that I hope can be answered sincerely.

Is PES 2012 worth the buy?

Consider the following: I was a big fan of PES2011 and liked just about everything about it except for the exploits that everyone is well aware of (i.e ground crosses, lobbed pass from kickoff, etc); however, I downloaded both 2012 demos and didn't like either of them as it felt like they were going towards a more arcade style game than 2011. Maybe to appease, or lure the FIFA converts back to PES. I'm not really sure why they did this. There were things I liked about the demos like the menus and the improved run making and animations.

Is 2012 just a polished version of the demos, or did it go back to 2011's slower, grittier base?
Click to expand...


OK, an objective view (I hope):

Yes, with the Konami patches it's slower and grittier - the problem is that the AI park the bus and you spend most of the game trying to break down a nine or ten-man defensive cordon, even if you're QPR playing against Real Madrid. Then, when the AI finally get the ball, they counter with about four passes, you lose control of your defender, and they score a cheap goal. OK, it's not quite that bad, but single player can be hard work this year. I still play offline sometimes and I do enjoy it, but certain things really do start to piss me off. Considering how much of an advance the AI is on last year, the increased computer "cheating" (including high-statted dribblers passing through block tackles like ghosts, replays showing their legs going straight through yours like your defender was made of water vapour) is a bit of a disappointment. Single player this year offers a brilliant base game, but there are enough irritations spread on top to threaten your mental health after a while. Although, like others have said, it's got the usual PES mood-swings - one evening you can play six games and love every second, the next you're swearing vengeance on Seabass and his demons for screwing up a fantastic game with pointlessly sadistic quirks.

But playing online or offline multiplayer, with non-superteams, both players using zero pass assistance (which is very different to FIFA's full manual, and very satisfying) - that's the way to play PES2012. There, despite a few flaws, it's the best football game ever made by an enormously wide margin. Seriously. No unstoppable exploits, very few opportunities for cheap play of any kind, much greater control over what happens on the pitch compared to the sometimes wayward PES2011. All the good things about this game - the great AI, the fluidity, the control, the proper-footballiness - all come to the fore, and most of the horrible stuff is banished. If you've got mates nearby who like to play PES properly, or you can join an online community or league like PEEL where people are going to play like this, then you should buy this game tomorrow without a second thought. It's absolutely brilliant.

You probably don't want to bother with stuff like MLO, though, where the usual Barca domination is compounded by the kids' insistence on using 5-bar passing assistance and an even greater AI weighting in favour of big teams (biased refs, suspicious deflections, etc)... as though the likes of Barca didn't have enough of an advantage already. It's as though Konami were determined to ensure that button-mashing Barca noobs could not lose whatever happened. Speed merchants even more overpowered than last year, too. I used to occasionally pop into the general lobbies last year and have a bash at beating Barca / Real with Fenerbahce or someone, but I don't even bother this year, because cheesers have been further empowered and it's just not fun anymore.

So... good and bad. One thing I'll say for single player, though - it's definitely less arcadey post-patches, on -1 speed, so if that was the main thing bothering you about the demos, you won't be horrified with the finished game on that score.
 
i know what you mean pere
i played 30 games in quick match online today and came up against barca 16 times five games on the trot i conceded an own goal unbelieveable jeff
and the number of times a ball rebounds off a player and 9 times out of 10 it goes to a barca player.
but when you do beat them despite them pumping balls to sanchez messi and villa the same tatic oh what joy. i am loving pes this year better than i thought i would true its still got its bad points where i want tosmashthe controller but thats konami for you the scripting barstools.
edit it should say played 20 matches came up against barca 16 times thats more like
it and if it aint barca its madrid or ac milan.

also got to agree re mood swings every now and again something kicks in and the AI of your players start to do daft things and i cant win for love nor money hence the five own goals in five games on the trot.
 
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Excellent post as always Pere.
Very balanced and completely objective. If I didn't have the game already after reading this, i'd want to buy out of sheer intrigue.
You summed it up very well.
 
Pere Ubu said:
OK, an objective view (I hope):

Yes, with the Konami patches it's slower and grittier - the problem is that the AI park the bus and you spend most of the game trying to break down a nine or ten-man defensive cordon, even if you're QPR playing against Real Madrid. Then, when the AI finally get the ball, they counter with about four passes, you lose control of your defender, and they score a cheap goal. OK, it's not quite that bad, but single player can be hard work this year. I still play offline sometimes and I do enjoy it, but certain things really do start to piss me off. Considering how much of an advance the AI is on last year, the increased computer "cheating" (including high-statted dribblers passing through block tackles like ghosts, replays showing their legs going straight through yours like your defender was made of water vapour) is a bit of a disappointment. Single player this year offers a brilliant base game, but there are enough irritations spread on top to threaten your mental health after a while. Although, like others have said, it's got the usual PES mood-swings - one evening you can play six games and love every second, the next you're swearing vengeance on Seabass and his demons for screwing up a fantastic game with pointlessly sadistic quirks.

But playing online or offline multiplayer, with non-superteams, both players using zero pass assistance (which is very different to FIFA's full manual, and very satisfying) - that's the way to play PES2012. There, despite a few flaws, it's the best football game ever made by an enormously wide margin. Seriously. No unstoppable exploits, very few opportunities for cheap play of any kind, much greater control over what happens on the pitch compared to the sometimes wayward PES2011. All the good things about this game - the great AI, the fluidity, the control, the proper-footballiness - all come to the fore, and most of the horrible stuff is banished. If you've got mates nearby who like to play PES properly, or you can join an online community or league like PEEL where people are going to play like this, then you should buy this game tomorrow without a second thought. It's absolutely brilliant.

You probably don't want to bother with stuff like MLO, though, where the usual Barca domination is compounded by the kids' insistence on using 5-bar passing assistance and an even greater AI weighting in favour of big teams (biased refs, suspicious deflections, etc)... as though the likes of Barca didn't have enough of an advantage already. It's as though Konami were determined to ensure that button-mashing Barca noobs could not lose whatever happened. Speed merchants even more overpowered than last year, too. I used to occasionally pop into the general lobbies last year and have a bash at beating Barca / Real with Fenerbahce or someone, but I don't even bother this year, because cheesers have been further empowered and it's just not fun anymore.

So... good and bad. One thing I'll say for single player, though - it's definitely less arcadey post-patches, on -1 speed, so if that was the main thing bothering you about the demos, you won't be horrified with the finished game on that score.
Click to expand...

Great post Pere Ubu, the one thing I will take up with you, and to a degree the vast majority of people of these forums, is the notion that speed (or lack of speed) and getting men behind the ball is simulation, and everything else is arcade.

I played all the variations of the out of the box together with the patches, and until today was sitting happily with Jenkey's patch on 1.02, which basically frees up the game and stops the 11 men behind the ball issue (this is on PC). Today however, I tried a different patch, the Fire Patch (whatever the latest one is) and the gameplay is once again very free, games are a complete joy, scorelines realistic and stats at the end of the game perfectly balanced.

But back to my point, it seems that the majority of people want PES to be a 'simulation', and I believe that they interpret this as slow, quite dull, and generally not end to end.

BUT, this is where I differ in my assessment...

Over the past 15 or so games I have watched, from all around the world at different levels, I would now say that 11/12 out of those 15 have been fast, flowing, end to end affairs.

Did anybody see the Portugal v Bosnia game last night, man PES -1, or -2 would have seemed like going backwards compared to that; talk about fast, responsive, end to end from start to finish. The game honestly resembled a hyped up PES 6! lol

Out of those 15 games I speak of the ones to highlight my point would be Chelsea v Arsenal, Portugal last night, and Spanish game that doesn't inlude Barce (because teams park the bus against them) etc etc. The England v Spain game I would consider a grind, again because England parked the bus.

But generally, teams at the moment are dynamically fast. For this reason, I think that this Fire Patch is perfect at the moment, gamespeed 0 is perfect, player response is excellent.

So for me, the term sim is a little misleading, or indeed what people's perception of sim is.

My definition of sim, in the context of PES, would be thus -

1) Is the game speed like what you see on the tv? - for me the game is now faster than ever, so yes
2) Are the shots on goal realistic?
3) Are the game scores realistic?
4) Is possession realistic?
5) Is CPU pressure realistic?

I think a lot of people put themselves through the grind and play the game on the most dullest settings, get little enjoyment out of it, in the name of chasing down getting the game like a sim, when in fact, football in real life is more arcade than ever before.

I'm testing this Fire Patch out a little more guys, but the results have been astoundingly good. Jenkey's patch was/is superb, but I still feel I don't get pressured enough and I still have too high possession (normally around 58/59).

The games I'm playing at the moment, are totally action packed, but in the right areas. The mid field battle is stunning. In a fifteen minute game on Superstar, normally shots are about 10-12 each, possession is only separated by around 5/6 percentage points (ie 53-47% in my favour) and indeed the CPU have even pipped me in possession (QPR did it, 51-49) this NEVER HAPPENS!! So you can tell how excited I am!!

And after watching a lot of footy lately, I am well and truly sold on the gamespeed not being too negative, and I'm more than happy playing it at gamespeed 0.

I'm willing to take other people's opinions on board, but for all those with a PC, try this Fire Patch as another brilliant alternative to the excellent Jenkey's!!!
 
Pere Ubu said:
OK, an objective view (I hope):

Yes, with the Konami patches it's slower and grittier - the problem is that the AI park the bus and you spend most of the game trying to break down a nine or ten-man defensive cordon, even if you're QPR playing against Real Madrid. Then, when the AI finally get the ball, they counter with about four passes, you lose control of your defender, and they score a cheap goal. OK, it's not quite that bad, but single player can be hard work this year. I still play offline sometimes and I do enjoy it, but certain things really do start to piss me off. Considering how much of an advance the AI is on last year, the increased computer "cheating" (including high-statted dribblers passing through block tackles like ghosts, replays showing their legs going straight through yours like your defender was made of water vapour) is a bit of a disappointment. Single player this year offers a brilliant base game, but there are enough irritations spread on top to threaten your mental health after a while. Although, like others have said, it's got the usual PES mood-swings - one evening you can play six games and love every second, the next you're swearing vengeance on Seabass and his demons for screwing up a fantastic game with pointlessly sadistic quirks.

But playing online or offline multiplayer, with non-superteams, both players using zero pass assistance (which is very different to FIFA's full manual, and very satisfying) - that's the way to play PES2012. There, despite a few flaws, it's the best football game ever made by an enormously wide margin. Seriously. No unstoppable exploits, very few opportunities for cheap play of any kind, much greater control over what happens on the pitch compared to the sometimes wayward PES2011. All the good things about this game - the great AI, the fluidity, the control, the proper-footballiness - all come to the fore, and most of the horrible stuff is banished. If you've got mates nearby who like to play PES properly, or you can join an online community or league like PEEL where people are going to play like this, then you should buy this game tomorrow without a second thought. It's absolutely brilliant.

You probably don't want to bother with stuff like MLO, though, where the usual Barca domination is compounded by the kids' insistence on using 5-bar passing assistance and an even greater AI weighting in favour of big teams (biased refs, suspicious deflections, etc)... as though the likes of Barca didn't have enough of an advantage already. It's as though Konami were determined to ensure that button-mashing Barca noobs could not lose whatever happened. Speed merchants even more overpowered than last year, too. I used to occasionally pop into the general lobbies last year and have a bash at beating Barca / Real with Fenerbahce or someone, but I don't even bother this year, because cheesers have been further empowered and it's just not fun anymore.

So... good and bad. One thing I'll say for single player, though - it's definitely less arcadey post-patches, on -1 speed, so if that was the main thing bothering you about the demos, you won't be horrified with the finished game on that score.
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Thanks Pere, and everyone else who commented. I have decided that I will buy the game as I am not much of an online player any way. I usually play Master league or quick match against somebody else. Shame that , from the sound of it, MLO got ruined. It was one of my favorite modes in last years game. I wasn't too good at it and only had a few good players ( Arevalo, Diego Perez, Belluschi) but it was always enjoyable since I was in the lower divisions were people didn't have Messi, Cristiano, etc.
 
juza09 said:
ehi ccshopland more tips about fire patch? is it for the pc community ?
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Yeah PC, have a look on PESPATCH, it's on there, but it's quite tricky to get it all to work, you have to download 1.3, then 1.31, 1.32, 1.33 and a compatible file 1.3x something or other. Have a look on PES Path anyway and report back.
 
ccshopland said:
Great post Pere Ubu, the one thing I will take up with you, and to a degree the vast majority of people of these forums, is the notion that speed (or lack of speed) and getting men behind the ball is simulation, and everything else is arcade.
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Hmm, it's not so much the speed of the game, or getting men behind the ball. The problem for me with Demo 2, and with the original unpatched game, was more the speed of the player movements, and how quickly and manically the action shifted from end to end. You had players like Richard Dunne shimmying around with the ball like John Travolta, and endless up-and-down movement of the ball which pretty much bypassed the midfield. It was all-action, singing and dancing arcade football.

Now, I take your point that football right now is more "arcade" than it used to be (although that's really something that's sprung up this season, and may well be a fad that will pass before too long - top coaches will think "hmm, this is all a bit harum-scarum for me" and the pendulum will swing again... it's also partly to do with the fact that a number of top teams - especially in England - currently have aging, injured or half-arsed defences, which again will be rectified soon). But there are still loads of nil-nils, still plenty of slow and patient games, and the WAY in which football is currently so attacking is not really reflected in PES2012. In real life, we're not seeing millions of crazy dribbles, 100mph counter attacks consisting of three or four passes, goalies falling over their own feet. Central defenders haven't suddenly become superbly agile, lumpen holding midfielders haven't suddenly discovered a first touch that would put Andres Iniesta to shame. Look at that abominable England-Sweden game the other night: it was just a load of large clumsy men bumping into each other for 90 minutes, occasionally propelling the ball in the vague direction they intended. A realistic computer football game should at least find some sort of balance.

That's why I'm pleased they toned down the super-slick movements of the early versions, slowed the game a little (0 speed is STILL too fast when you look at how much ground is covered in a short time), made the counter-attacking just a little bit less frantic and slightly more containable. When the game is moving too fast, strategy and thought go out of the window; even in a high-speed match, there's still room for tactics. When both sides are pushing forward like they were a goal down in the last minute of the Champions League final, again, there's no time to think or plan or do anything other than mash buttons. That's what I think of as arcade football, and there's less of it in PES 1.02 than there was in PES 1.0 - which is not to say that it's better, just that it's slightly more to my taste... despite the very obvious faults in how the game now plays out.

Again, I'd say that online 1v1 - with all assistance off, and a sympathetic opponent - really does capture the knife-edge speed and skill of modern football. It's quick, and one mistake can finish you, but it's far from a mindless thrash. The fact that both players have to concentrate on their shape, and the weight and direction of their passing, regulates the gameplay, and that makes all the difference (the CPU has no such worries, because that's all handled in a split-second by a computer brain which can predict nearly all possible outcomes, and move the ball around at ludicrously high speeds without error, which is why playing against it can seem so unrealistic).
 
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Pere Ubu said:
That's why I'm pleased they toned down the super-slick movements of the early versions, slowed the game a little (0 speed is STILL too fast when you look at how much ground is covered in a short time), made the counter-attacking just a little bit less frantic and slightly more containable. When the game is moving too fast, strategy and thought go out of the window; even in a high-speed match, there's still room for tactics. When both sides are pushing forward like they were a goal down in the last minute of the Champions League final, again, there's no time to think or plan or do anything other than mash buttons. That's what I think of as arcade football, and there's less of it in PES 1.02 than there was in PES 1.0 - which is not to say that it's better, just that it's slightly more to my taste... despite the very obvious faults in how the game now plays out.
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Brilliant post, Pere. What you've pointed out is EXACTLY what I feel. It doesn't take skill, just who is better at button mashing that decides who takes the game. I'm talking bout 1v1 online where one person is on 3 or 4 bars assistance and the other is on 0, which brings me to my point below.

Pere Ubu said:
Again, I'd say that online 1v1 - with all assistance off, and a sympathetic opponent - really does capture the knife-edge speed and skill of modern football. It's quick, and one mistake can finish you, but it's far from a mindless thrash. The fact that both players have to concentrate on their shape, and the weight and direction of their passing, regulates the gameplay, and that makes all the difference (the CPU has no such worries, because that's all handled in a split-second by a computer brain which can predict nearly all possible outcomes, and move the ball around at ludicrously high speeds without error, which is why playing against it can seem so unrealistic).
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This. Playing on 0 bars against a like-minded opponent is definitely the best football game I've played. You really have to concentrate because like you pointed out, one mistake can be very costly. It takes more skill then just holding down the pressure buttons. I think I've done my best to defend like teams would do in real life:

-Sitting back when needed, with just R2 and direction

-Applying more pressure in situations where its called for, with A and direction stick

-Using R2 and A to jockey when in danger areas

Also, passing requires real skill where you have to take into account so many factors like in real life. Things like body position, weaker foot, distance from the receiver all come into play.

Sadly, against an opponent who's using 3 or 4 bars, it is another story. They can do laser passes from defence to their strikers in just 3 or 4 presses of the button. They can do amazing 50 yard passes with their back to the receiver. The game becomes very ping-pong as a result, which I absolutely hate. Firstly because it doesn't require as much skill, and secondly because it becomes a totally different game as a result.

Playing on 0 is so much better, but it also depends on the opponent's mindset. Pressuring like crazy all over the pitch is definitely less successful, but it still is annoying. I, for one, don't immediately start pressuring the nearest defender before the keeper takes a short goalkick, because I would find it a cheap way to score. I lay off, blocking off the passing lanes till a while after he's received the ball, and even then, just use my players to jockey. Not many people I've played share the same mindset though, but I guess it's something I have to live with.
 
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