PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

played this with a mate last night, ML with liverpool real players. Downloaded Klash's premier league tactics. Patch 1.0. I had a blast, absoltuley loved it. Individuality is there. My mate was struggling with the passing mechanics. Kept passing to the wrong guy, under hit passes etc... i think he needs more practice. We could not score goals to save our lifes, but i stil had a blast. You need concentration for this game. The beers we were drinking didnt help. But the thing is, I cant wait for him to come back over and play again. I got bored playing against the cpu by myself, but this with a friend is awesome.
 
Northzzz said:
I love when people come in and throw examples of a rare goal fest in real life to somehow vindicate something about the way PES plays.

All that should be said is that the aforementioned result was 'rare' whilst in PES it's a normal occurrence to get a really high scoring game with goals from both teams, especially between the big teams. Not much more needs to be said surely?
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i dont think it is normal in PES to get high scoring games at all...
 
gomito#10 said:
i dont think it is normal in PES to get high scoring games at all...
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I deleted my post because i didn't think it was adding much and i don't want to seem antagonist but the fact remains that I get obscenely high scoring games far too often (on professional difficulty). 5-4's, 4-3's, 4-4's, 3-3's and i even had a 6-5 between Portugal and Columbia in the last match i played.

Mostly i find that it completely correlates to which type of team you happen to use. If i use the big teams against other big teams then the score is significantly higher than say two decent teams. To me PES 2012 doesn't balance things well. If i'm playing as a one of the best teams or if the CPU is then the defending should be better. Right now i don't find it is at all and the only thing that increases is your likelihood to score with a better attack. I really would like for somebody here to illustrate how teams differ in their defensive ability, i don't see it at all from either my own team's point of view or the computers. I actually think it's quite funny that the CPUs defence concede so deep but are so easily opened up at the same time if you hit them quickly before they have a chance to get 9 players back in the box. Just like they do to me.

I guess it's more evident in the game because i never seem to encounter low scoring matches. If a game has less than 3 or 4 goals in it then i am very surprised, even between mediocre teams (and lets be honest it makes no sense to say that mediocre teams should struggle to score against other mediocre teams). I can't remember me or the CPU ever winning 1-0 for instance. I'm going to start tracking my scores i think.
 
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I just put the game and proceeded to my match. I picked the Estadio De Dragao and noticed it was raining. It cut to the kickoff screen and i noticed something different.

http://imageshack.us/f/100/weatheri.png/

I don't know what to think. Is that a purposeful effect because it's raining? I've never seen it before at any other stadiums when the weather is set to rain. It looks like a massive torrential downpour. Has anybody else encountered this?

To compare and contrast, this is what the game usually looks like.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/normalview.png/

Both on dynamic settings on my tv.

Edit: It's a bug. Any other camera makes the game look like the second image.
 
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Northzzz said:
I deleted my post because i didn't think it was adding much and i don't want to seem antagonist but the fact remains that I get obscenely high scoring games far too often (on professional difficulty). 5-4's, 4-3's, 4-4's, 3-3's and i even had a 6-5 between Portugal and Columbia in the last match i played.

Mostly i find that it completely correlates to which type of team you happen to use. If i use the big teams against other big teams then the score is significantly higher than say two decent teams. To me PES 2012 doesn't balance things well. If i'm playing as a one of the best teams or if the CPU is then the defending should be better. Right now i don't find it is at all and the only thing that increases is your likelihood to score with a better attack. I really would like for somebody here to illustrate how teams differ in their defensive ability, i don't see it at all from either my own team's point of view or the computers. I actually think it's quite funny that the CPUs defence concede so deep but are so easily opened up at the same time if you hit them quickly before they have a chance to get 9 players back in the box.

I guess it's more evident in the game because i never seem to encounter low scoring matches. If a game has less than 3 or 4 goals in it then i am very surprised, even between mediocre teams (and lets be honest it makes no sense to say that mediocre teams should struggle to score against other mediocre teams). I can't remember me or the CPU ever winning 1-0 for instance. I'm going to start tracking my scores i think.
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Northzzz, I play on TP, pre-patch, gamespeed none. I play as Liverpool in the Premier League. I feel that I am an attacking side but my stats don't hold that argument up lol.

I have played 15 games and conceded 15 goals and have scored 23. I am fifth in the league. I have the best defence in the league so I must be doing something right lol.

How do you attack and concede if you don't mind me asking? I feel it is absolutely necessary to have one of your midfielders as a DMF to break up the counter attack. It is also VITAL this year to know when to press and when to back off and jockey for defensive support. By press I mean you yourself positioning the players, I think the 'press' button this year is suicide.

The reason why I love this years defending so much is for this reason. I feel button pressing is a cop out and I feel thr CPU rewards the way I defend. I play a kind of 4-2-2-2 system, it's difficult to explain here. I rarely use trigger one tow runs unless I'm high up the pitch and looking to break the oppo line, sending too many players ahead of the ball is a bad move against a CPU that can break like mad this year. When you're building up, I would suggest that you always be aware that if you lose the ball right here right now in this position, wherever you are on the pitch, have you the kind of midfield defensive support to stop an attack?

If your scores are like 4-3, 5-4 all the time then this may be down to the way you play. Perhaps ask yourself why do teams IRL pass the way they do, sometimes negatively? Are you getting caught too often in possession in the centre? Are you not patient enough and get too many people forward.

It's very much practice, practice. I have a system now, for me anyway, where I can press high up the pitch with my strikers if need be and contain and drop with defensive midfielders. Likewise I feel that I can play fast and attacking stuff but eliminate CPU danger as much as possible. It took practice, lots of formation alterations and slider changes, but now I feel I have a gameplan that suits my type of play.

I also play 15 minute games, what time do you play on? If you play ten minute games for example and you're getting these scores then I'd love to be a season ticket holder watching you play, the games sound a frantic enjoyable mess :)

What formation do you play, do you play enough defensive minded players? Remember the CPU will react to whatever you do, so if you have for example too many attack minded players all in the same team then the likelihood is that the game will be carnage as everyone looks to get forward for you, leaving gaps for the CPU to get forward too.
 
I have no idea how to defend in this. No. Idea.

I've seen all the tutorials, done all the training challenges, and in the main I can jockey/time a standing tackle all over the pitch except for when the AI gets within 25 yards of my goal, then no matter what I do they just waltz past every challenge.

On that note, I played Germany v Uraguay, Pro level, post-patch, -2 speed, no assisted settings, it was back to how it is when I love this game. Finished 1-1, I fought back late on and should have won it. But it was evenly contested and a lot of fun.

I then clicked on 'rematch', same tactics, teams, settings, everything, and the AI beat me 5-0. One goal it scored was six consecutive ping pong passes through the centre of the field like robots until Forlan easily skipped over a succession of tackles before scoring.

Would probably help if I could defend, but how the AI can play so different in two separate games is beyond me. One felt normal, the other felt turbo boosted and superhuman almost the whole match.

And another thing, how does anyone manage to break down the AI post-patch? At any one time I'll have a maximum of 2-3 players in the opposition box, being crowded out by up to 9 defenders less than 25 yards from goal.
 
LTFC said:
I have no idea how to defend in this. No. Idea.

I've seen all the tutorials, done all the training challenges, and in the main I can jockey/time a standing tackle all over the pitch except for when the AI gets within 25 yards of my goal, then no matter what I do they just waltz past every challenge.

On that note, I played Germany v Uraguay, Pro level, post-patch, -2 speed, no assisted settings, it was back to how it is when I love this game. Finished 1-1, I fought back late on and should have won it. But it was evenly contested and a lot of fun.

I then clicked on 'rematch', same tactics, teams, settings, everything, and the AI beat me 5-0. One goal it scored was six consecutive ping pong passes through the centre of the field like robots until Forlan easily skipped over a succession of tackles before scoring.

Would probably help if I could defend, but how the AI can play so different in two separate games is beyond me. One felt normal, the other felt turbo boosted and superhuman almost the whole match.

And another thing, how does anyone manage to break down the AI post-patch? At any one time I'll have a maximum of 2-3 players in the opposition box, being crowded out by up to 9 defenders less than 25 yards from goal.
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This is the main problem I was having post patch. It became the only two ways to score for me were crosses and long shots from 25 yards. The trouble is because there are so many people in the box, so long as you position your midfielders correctly in the gameplan he is free to take pot shots all day. The amount of long rangers I scored with Adam, Gerrard and Lucas on post patch was insanely stupid. Likewise the only goal I looked like conceding post patch was the opposition counter. It was dull.

I can defend well in either game now. My key; player positioning, and the jockey hold without tackling.

I too was getting 2,3,4 goals put past me when I first played the game, but I have lots of little tricks I can count on through experience. Tricks like the manually controlling the keepers on CPU free kicks close in, manually selecting someone else like a FB when I can sense that the CPU will play a long raking flank ball, retreating a little to give me time for support, playing a defensive line of no less than 16 and pressure at 15. This doesn't mean I press and pressure though, it just gives me more time to close down and jockey the CPU and gives me more pitch behind my defenders to fall back into. ALso a DMF who NEVER leaves his post is vital, do not trigger runs with any of your central midfielders it is suicide on the top levels. And always block the CPU route through the middle when approaching your eighteen yard box, it is a cardinal sin to concede cheap CPU goals through a series of passes through this area, just defend inside all the time.

Apart from that there's not much more advice I can give.
 
ccshopland said:
Northzzz, I play on TP, pre-patch, gamespeed none. I play as Liverpool in the Premier League. I feel that I am an attacking side but my stats don't hold that argument up lol.

I have played 15 games and conceded 15 goals and have scored 23. I am fifth in the league. I have the best defence in the league so I must be doing something right lol.

How do you attack and concede if you don't mind me asking? I feel it is absolutely necessary to have one of your midfielders as a DMF to break up the counter attack. It is also VITAL this year to know when to press and when to back off and jockey for defensive support. By press I mean you yourself positioning the players, I think the 'press' button this year is suicide.

The reason why I love this years defending so much is for this reason. I feel button pressing is a cop out and I feel thr CPU rewards the way I defend. I play a kind of 4-2-2-2 system, it's difficult to explain here. I rarely use trigger one tow runs unless I'm high up the pitch and looking to break the oppo line, sending too many players ahead of the ball is a bad move against a CPU that can break like mad this year. When you're building up, I would suggest that you always be aware that if you lose the ball right here right now in this position, wherever you are on the pitch, have you the kind of midfield defensive support to stop an attack?

If your scores are like 4-3, 5-4 all the time then this may be down to the way you play. Perhaps ask yourself why do teams IRL pass the way they do, sometimes negatively? Are you getting caught too often in possession in the centre? Are you not patient enough and get too many people forward.

It's very much practice, practice. I have a system now, for me anyway, where I can press high up the pitch with my strikers if need be and contain and drop with defensive midfielders. Likewise I feel that I can play fast and attacking stuff but eliminate CPU danger as much as possible. It took practice, lots of formation alterations and slider changes, but now I feel I have a gameplan that suits my type of play.

I also play 15 minute games, what time do you play on? If you play ten minute games for example and you're getting these scores then I'd love to be a season ticket holder watching you play, the games sound a frantic enjoyable mess :)

What formation do you play, do you play enough defensive minded players? Remember the CPU will react to whatever you do, so if you have for example too many attack minded players all in the same team then the likelihood is that the game will be carnage as everyone looks to get forward for you, leaving gaps for the CPU to get forward too.
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I play on post-patch. So naturally our experiences might differ.

I'm not going to lie. I play incredibly attacking. Far too attacking for my liking. I'm usually an incredibly defensive minded gamer. If i'm playing FPS' (well when i used to) then i look to keep my deaths low and in football games i usually look to keep my defence tight and to not concede because i'd prefer a tight 1-0 victory to a 4-3 thriller any day. That said in PES 2012 i feel that i absolutely have push forward quickly and push as many players forward as possible. I know why i do it. It's because the CPU defend the way they do. The only way to break them down is to not dally on the ball and get forward before they have the chance to get their 9 players back. That's the only way i'm finding it possible to score, attacking in numbers to counter their defending in numbers. If i concede it usually is from a through-ball played by the computer during a counter attack. I'm not surprised at why i'm getting high scoring games but i feel that the only way to score is to do so through one-dimensional means. I score through sustained pressure. The computer scores from counter attacks or set-pieces. This has been my experience of the game in a nutshell.

That said i just beat Montenegro 2-0 with Turkey to undermine my own point. Apart from a couple of occasions where my players ran past the ball instead of collecting it (their keeper did the same as one point, but he got back) i didn't find too much annoyance in the game. Sure the CPU turned it on as soon as i scored as per usual but i managed to shut them out and it felt rewarding to do so. I didn't exactly play more conservatively, the CPU just didn't get that stroke of luck that they always seem to when they want to score.

I'd say my atypical goal was either a 25 yarder or me getting the ball about 30 yards out, passing it to the side of the pitch where there is more space then passing it back into the middle and playing a quick one-two hoping one of my players will run into some space in the box, then passing it to him and scoring.

I'm not going to pre-patch again either. The goalkeepers were shocking and i couldn't deal with it. By shocking i mean this kind of shocking

YouTube - Keeper.avi
 
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Northzzz said:
I play on post-patch. So naturally our experiences might differ.

I'm not going to lie. I play incredibly attacking. Far too attacking for my liking. I'm usually an incredibly defensive minded gamer. If i'm playing FPS' (well when i used to) then i look to keep my deaths low and in football games i usually look to keep my defence tight and to not concede because i'd prefer a tight 1-0 victory to a 4-3 thriller any day. That said in PES 2012 i feel that i absolutely have push forward quickly and push as many players forward as possible. I know why i do it. It's because the CPU defend the way they do. The only way to break them down is to not dally on the ball and get forward before they have the chance to get their 9 players back. That's the only way i'm finding it possible to score, attacking in numbers to counter their defending in numbers. If i concede it usually is from a through-ball played by the computer during a counter attack. I'm not surprised at why i'm getting high scoring games but i feel that the only way to score is to do so through one-dimensional means. I score through sustained pressure. The computer scores from counter attacks or set-pieces. This has been my experience of the game in a nutshell.

That said i just beat Montenegro 2-0 with Turkey to undermine my own point. Apart from a couple of occasions where my players ran past the ball instead of collecting it (their keeper did the same as one point, but he got back) i didn't find too much annoyance in the game. Sure the CPU turned it on as soon as i scored as per usual but i managed to shut them out and it felt rewarding to do so. I didn't exactly play more conservatively, the CPU just didn't get that stroke of luck that they always seem to when they want to score.

I'd say my atypical goal was either a 25 yarder or me getting the ball about 30 yards out, passing it to the side of the pitch where there is more space then passing it back into the middle and playing a quick one-two hoping one of my players will run into some space in the box, then passing it to him and scoring.

I'm not going to pre-patch again either. The goalkeepers were shocking and i couldn't deal with it. By shocking i mean this kind of shocking

YouTube - Keeper.avi
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It's really weird mind, I had shocking keeper moments when I was messing about with settings etc, but when I play the game at gamespeed 0, I honestly haven't had one fk up in around 12 games. In fact my keeper and the CPU's have been incredible.

Post patch is just frustrating for so many reasons, least of all that virtually every game pans out the same. Lots and lots of user possession high up the pitch but little chance of scoring a good goal because CPU numbers. You either score from a twenty five yarder (something that was happening way too frequently for my liking which is why I switched to pre-patch) or the CPU counters you late on after what seems like an eternity breaking them down.

You can break them down but it becomes so chore like and unreal that it wasn't worth the hassle. It basically involved keeping the ball for ever and having possession in the high 70's as you probed for the length of the first half. It wasn't for me. Once the sparkle of 'sim' mode wore off, I had seen it all before.

So now it's pre-patch gamespeed 0. Every game is near different, and the goals and moves are varied.
 
Games vs the computer do tend to have much higher scores, that's for sure. Average score for me offline is 3-2, very rare to get a 0-0. Online (at least in PEEL, with zero pass assistance) it's totally different, rare to get more than 3 goals in total in a game, and if someone goes 2-0 up it's a very long road back.

That's because the computer plays on 999 bars pass assistance, though, and defends deep but without any real intelligence. You spend three quarters of the match camped around their box - which gives you plenty of chances to score, even with the "Farnborough Town at Stamford Bridge in 3rd round of the FA Cup" defending from the AI - but their counters are usually laser-accurate (and let's not forget that if the cpu is losing it starts throwing itself to the floor and winning free kicks whenever it wants, too).

That game pattern is pretty much a rule post-patch, and it does get repetitive, but I found that scores were even higher pre-patch (I was averaging 4-3) which is just too crazy for me.

There's really no substitute for 1v1, zero assistance, small-to-medium teams, with both players trying to play realistically. The experience is so far ahead of any single-player match it's embarrassing. You also find team individuality is increased, because it becomes obvious very quickly that if you're controlling Wolves you have to play a very different style from if you're controlling Besiktas, and decent players will pick up on that and adjust. Most of the faults of this PES only really show themselves in single player, or against spammy lobby players. The right kind of online game can be very close to perfect, in terms of balance and feel (except that button-mashing second player pressure is STILL too effective, something which I kind of suspect was introduced with the patch... might have to play some offline multiplayer with the unpatched game to see if my suspicions are correct).
 
Scripting really doesn't feel subtle at all. Not when suddenly the computer just suddenly jinks round your players for fun with whoever it likes.

I just had another game (Wales v Belgium). I was winning 3-0 and they scored a counter attack break in the 86th minute. Cue them scoring another goal by getting the ball on the edge of my box and beating two of my defenders with the most perfect dribbling imaginable. I was jockeying back to keep space, i didn't even go into them for a challenge but they ran past me (with Defour) like i wasn't even there and scored another. It could have been 3-3 because they did a similar thing on the wing and put in a cross which they hit the post with. Seriously i was defending so well in this match but when the computer decides it wants the opposition to score than you better believe it will.

I deliberately tried not to attack at 3-0 up but my defence still decided to defend ever so slightly behind the half way line. Seriously it makes no absolutely no difference which auto setting you decide to use. I've said it before. Can you honestly say that putting your team on super defensive makes your team look to defend like there's no tomorrow? Super defensive does nothing whatsoever IMO and likewise i see no difference with any of those offensive/defensive settings. It's frustrating as hell because it feels like my team is set to push up no matter what the score is. The only time my defence looks like it is actively defending is when the opponent has the ball because it pushes all my defence, not just who i'm controlling, back. Why the flying funk should i have to let the opponent have the ball for my defence to think about defending and not standing near the half way line? 3-0 up and suddenly 3-2 down and my whole team still doesn't think getting back is a good idea.

I don't feel any sense of dynamic AI changing it's attack/defense levels based on the game. I actually set the attack/defense level to no preference at the start of any match and i would assume that would mean it changes based on whether you're behind or in front. It really doesn't, or if it does it makes no difference.

This is the kind of thing that ruins PES 2012. You're having a great game, a rewarding game, and then suddenly it all turns in one instance and it just leaves you with a bitter taste.

Edit: As i alluded to in paragraph 2. I just had a game where i was 2-0 down so in the 75th minute i switched to 'super offensive'. It made no difference whatsoever. No more players getting forward than normal and no more players looking to make runs. Seriously it's botched. It worked fine in PES 2011. Changing tactics (not just formation) is part and parcel of football but it's something that PES 2012 has neglected.
 
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Northzzz said:
I deliberately tried not to attack at 3-0 up but my defence still decided to defend ever so slightly behind the half way line. Seriously it makes no absolutely no difference which auto setting you decide to use. I've said it before. Can you honestly say that putting your team on super defensive makes your team look to defend like there's no tomorrow? Super defensive does nothing whatsoever IMO and likewise i see no difference with any of those offensive/defensive settings. It's frustrating as hell because it feels like my team is set to push up no matter what the score is.
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Yeah, that's been bugging me since Demo 2. The cpu packs its box; your own defenders seem to think that Puyol and Pique's positioning is the industry standard. And there doesn't seem to be a way to change that.

Someone suggested a while back that the 1-2-3-4 tactics settings don't actually work properly, and while the formation will change when you switch between them, the different slider settings don't, and just stay on setting 1. Dunno if that's true, but I'm not sure it matters much anyway - I've had defensive line set to 4 on my regular number 1 setting, and still I find my defence pushing up to the centre circle pretty much all the time. Reckon it might be another quick-and-dirty "fix" to ensure the computer scores goals against you, because if you could play a more intelligent line it's hard to see how the AI would ever get through it, without that unrealistic dribbling happening even more often than it does already.

It's annoying that it happens in multiplayer too, because even on zero assistance it's a bit too easy to break out of defence and hit massive through balls to a pacy striker. Not as insultingly easy as in PES2011, but still too easy. Thankfully it's nowhere near as much of an issue as when playing v the comp, because the passing error does make a difference and (in general) play will move up and down the pitch more slowly in a good multiplayer game, just because good human players will concentrate more on working the ball forwards rather than banging it down the middle.
 
I think PES 2012 is a game that the more you play it the more frustrated you end up being. That's not exactly a virtue that a video game should aim for. The first game always seem to be quite fun but the experience becomes more frustrating the amount of games you play. By the third i usually end up questioning why i'm bothering and then turn it off win, lose or draw. The game's frustrations grate on me progressively.

If i played 1 game at a time i'd probably like the game 10 times more. What will happen now is that i won't want to play the game for a few days. I'll eventually go back to it, have fun in my first game and then progressively have a worse time the more games i play.
 
I am playing on superstar level, preferring weaker teams (lecce, shaktar ) against top guns. i am having a wonderful experience while defending. i have been on the wrong side of results though, but only by single goals courtesy of very late deflected goals, free-kicks or set-peices.
For me the best way to defend is really just using the analogue stick, just taking up positions where you cut off the opponents passing options. Also when trying to defend counter attacks and situations where the striker make those runs inside the box,the best way is to place a midfielder close to the ball carrier and then track the running striker with your defender. The AI is intelligent enough to take care of the passer while you take care of the striker.

I do believe using only analogue stick to position the player and not using pressure buttons really helps keep the shape of the defense. i always try to stop opponent players using my MFs and meanwhile my defense takes up good positions. Until its absolutely vital, i only use my defense line as the last tacklers.
 
ccshopland said:
This is the main problem I was having post patch. It became the only two ways to score for me were crosses and long shots from 25 yards. The trouble is because there are so many people in the box, so long as you position your midfielders correctly in the gameplan he is free to take pot shots all day. The amount of long rangers I scored with Adam, Gerrard and Lucas on post patch was insanely stupid. Likewise the only goal I looked like conceding post patch was the opposition counter. It was dull.

I can defend well in either game now. My key; player positioning, and the jockey hold without tackling.

I too was getting 2,3,4 goals put past me when I first played the game, but I have lots of little tricks I can count on through experience. Tricks like the manually controlling the keepers on CPU free kicks close in, manually selecting someone else like a FB when I can sense that the CPU will play a long raking flank ball, retreating a little to give me time for support, playing a defensive line of no less than 16 and pressure at 15. This doesn't mean I press and pressure though, it just gives me more time to close down and jockey the CPU and gives me more pitch behind my defenders to fall back into. ALso a DMF who NEVER leaves his post is vital, do not trigger runs with any of your central midfielders it is suicide on the top levels. And always block the CPU route through the middle when approaching your eighteen yard box, it is a cardinal sin to concede cheap CPU goals through a series of passes through this area, just defend inside all the time.

Apart from that there's not much more advice I can give.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that, it's funny that the best way of defending is by manually knocking your player into the opponent and not actually using the tackle button Konami instruct you to use in their tutorial videos. Typical that their new addition doesn't really work properly.

I'm sorry to say as I love PES but I'm 99.9% about to trade this in and stick with 2011. I'm finding the exact problem that most of my goals are from around 20-25 yards out, it's the only place in an attacking position to have any space whatsoever. Try any kind of patient build up and you have a penalty area packed with 9 opponents and about 3 attackers. That's 12 players crammed in the box at any one time. It's impossible to put any kind of decent passing moves in and past the defence.

Started a FL mode again today as Ajax, I LOVE the mode itself, the new aspect to it and presentation are so much better than previous efforts. The mode is brilliant. Such a shame then that the first match of the season literally made me want to tear my hair out. It was a dour, dour stalemate at 1-1 where I scored a skimming shot from 25 yards, they scored a header I seemingly couldn't defend from a corner, but for the umpteenth time in this game I failed to create a single clear chance on goal. Not one. I was pretty much man-marked insanely tightly by a 9 man defence.

Then, surprise surprise, despite having the majority of the play and banging my head against a brick wall, up pops the AI twice in the last 5 minutes of the game to win a match it didn't deserve (which happens the majority of the time it feels like), and with two goals I couldn't do anything about. Yet AGAIN the game scores off a lofted through pass, which is just as effective as the through pass from 2011, then it scores with a tap in from a low cross. The winger skips across a couple of challenges like I'm not there (which, the other way around, would have resulted in my player doing the stumble animation and losing the ball), the cross comes in low across the six yard box, and amazingly, as the screen scolls across, I haven't got a single defender within five yards of the striker.

I put the replay on, and my defender, off the ball and away from what I was doing, kept pace with the striker, then as the ball started to come across, the AI made him jockey backwards and away from the ball. Shitty AI, designed to present the striker with an open goal. I gained control the the defender by the time he was far too far away to do anything.

I can get over goals like that if it offers me a chance at the other end, but every game I play I'm so tightly marked and hammered by strong, instant challenges that knocks the ball away or forces that stumbling animation.

I have no idea how anyone creates space against the AI. They must be scoring long range goals because there's no other way. Even crosses never find their targets 99% of the time because there are a huge number of AI bodies in the way of the ball. Eight or nine at least forming a solid wall in front of their keeper.

Likewise, unlike last year, there are problems with the animations and slow ball control. Countless times I use R2 to change direction and the player does an animation and kind of 'locks' into it, even to the point where he carries on going and just leaves the ball behind. Awful.
 
Messiah Ban Victim said:
Maybe in Scotland.

In Holland we use different paces. Football is not athletics.
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I don't think it matters where you are from.
In pes 2012 you are allowed to play a variety of styles , using the assistance and speed level settings. Matches from one game to another are going to be different, depending on what mode you are playing, what team you select and most importantly what tactics are deployed.
If every game ended up with unrealistic scorelines then it would be a false representation of football.
This is obviously not the case in fact it's the complete opposite.
Those games where there are eight goals scored are rare in real life and rare on pes.
This is one of the reasons why it is a truer interpretation of how a football match can ultimately play out.
 
Pere Ubu said:
By the way, when was the last time anyone scored a header against the computer? Particularly from a set piece?
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lol :LOL:, i scored one from corner yesterday only, on Top-player. but i have to say i scored that after a long long time. earlier i used to score by selecting the player manually with best heading ability, but nowdays even that doesnt work. i concede a lot through set pieces on superstar level.
 
Flaw3d Genuis said:
If fast attacking football happens in real life then playing fast attacking football in a computer game has to be simulation as well.
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Really what you/we mean is that a football game should be able to have matches that end up all out action 8 goal thrillers yet at the smae time sometimes 0-0 bore draws.

Beacuse ''reality'' in football is that happens. And yes some leagues more exciting gameplay than others seria a vs spain vs England etc..

For me in FIFA 12 with sliders I have games that end up 3-2 with lots of chacnes or games 0-0 i struggle to get chances. So thats good in that respect. I posted a video here you seen I beat turkey 4-3 with SPain. Later on I played a career mode game with Celtic and actually drew 0-0 with kilmarnock!!!! smae difficulty, game lenght etc...As someone mentioned about PEs it smees with better teams scores are higher
than we low teams play against each other. IMO this is beacuse forwards are much more clinical for good teams and chacnes are created easier.

old PES on PS2 had great realistic matches. Id play at home to crap team in master league and win 4-1 all over them. Id play away to Milan and theyd be all oever me Id have few chances and lose 1-0 etc.

Its niether arcade or simualtion its about the ability to have various game outcomes and perfracnes agaisnt different styles and standards off teams.
 
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Anyone claiming this game shows any kind of realism is surely having a laugh. Sure, player individuality is great when you're off the ball, but the supposedly 'intelligent' AI is a farce. I just witnessed a series of several Fenerbache players slaloming their way through my entire team like they're skiing or something. Fucking ridiculous behaviour.

Oh, and yeah the game cheats. Big time. I worked and worked to take the lead in that game, took me 50 odd minutes of solid pressure to break down the 11 man defence, and when I did, it took the game 2 and a half minutes to put in a cross, and despite having 5 of my own men in the area, the ball went to a Fenerbache player who was standing 10 yards in space and headed it in. Gibbs was marking him, but part way though the move the AI just made him stop running and stand there until the striker was free.

I'm noticing this a huge amount now - the game removes your defenders from their positioning off the ball for a split second, in order to open up space for the AI.

Like this for example. Note, all the way through the move, I had control of someone else. The defender is marking the striker all the way until just before the pass is made. Then, the AI makes him and the defender to his left just run away from the striker and open up a huge gap for him. Complete AI cheating.

YouTube - AI

When you compare this to a few moments later when I played the ball in to Van Persie's feet in roughly the same position up the other end of the field, and he was hammered from behind before he finished his ball control animation by not one, not two, but THREE defenders so tight to him, and you can see the AI trying to replicate game difficulty in the most cheap, basic and tacky manner possible.

Think I'm actually done with this. Like I said, it's all good and well having players on the ball who feel different from player to player, it's another thing when you have to play against an AI that cheats by moving your defenders out the way before you can control them on a regular basis, and sees even the most average team able to play like Messi on the counter attack. Add to that the instant turning speeds, odd ball behaviour and the game feels more like a cartoon than a simulation.

Gonna trade this for something that's actually fun to play.
 
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LTFC said:
Anyone claiming this game shows any kind of realism is surely having a laugh. Sure, player individuality is great when you're off the ball, but the supposedly 'intelligent' AI is a farce. I just witnessed a series of several Fenerbache players slaloming their way through my entire team like they're skiing or something. Fucking ridiculous behaviour.

Oh, and yeah the game cheats. Big time. I worked and worked to take the lead in that game, took me 50 odd minutes of solid pressure to break down the 11 man defence, and when I did, it took the game 2 and a half minutes to put in a cross, and despite having 5 of my own men in the area, the ball went to a Fenerbache player who was standing 10 yards in space and headed it in. Gibbs was marking him, but part way though the move the AI just made him stop running and stand there until the striker was free.

I'm noticing this a huge amount now - the game removes your defenders from their positioning off the ball for a split second, in order to open up space for the AI.

Like this for example. Note, all the way through the move, I had control of someone else. The defender is marking the striker all the way until just before the pass is made. Then, the AI makes him and the defender to his left just run away from the striker and open up a huge gap for him. Complete AI cheating.

YouTube - AI

When you compare this to a few moments later when I played the ball in to Van Persie's feet in roughly the same position up the other end of the field, and he was hammered from behind before he finished his ball control animation by not one, not two, but THREE defenders so tight to him, and you can see the AI trying to replicate game difficulty in the most cheap, basic and tacky manner possible.

Think I'm actually done with this. Like I said, it's all good and well having players on the ball who feel different from player to player, it's another thing when you have to play against an AI that cheats by moving your defenders out the way before you can control them on a regular basis, and sees even the most average team able to play like Messi on the counter attack. Add to that the instant turning speeds, odd ball behaviour and the game feels more like a cartoon than a simulation.

Gonna trade this for something that's actually fun to play.
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thats happened me alot on top player,when i dropped down to professional it happened less
 
goalgerd said:
thats happened me alot on top player,when i dropped down to professional it happened less
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i think thats the reality. If you playon hardest difficulties then expec AI'cheating'' I mean thats why its harder difficulty they make it harder but I guess doing unrealistic cheating but how else could they make it harder? Make your players slower, make CPU marking more tighter and efficeint.

When I tried a few qucik games I struggled on PRo. I enjoyed the game on regular.

Mayeb to easy for soem but I aint played PES for years. I had fun games on regualr but the CPU a bit weak on attack.

I tried PRo and harder to create chances but CPU is good in attack
 
ccshopland said:
I have been thinking about this a lot lately, and the more I think of it the more I feel that KONAMI may be right in the way the game is.

Yesterday we had that Chelsea game, end to end for the full ninety, much like any Premiership game is. I kind of disagree with you about that Inter v Juve match being more sim, that was even more end to end in the first half than the Chelsea game lol!! Right until the players were just knackered and Juve played keep ball.

Now I had played four games of PES this morning on PS3 setup on my 37" LCD. The game was on zero gamespeed, pre patch, which I now believe to be the speed at which the game was intended (to not break the game or have any funny things happening) but it provides the opportunity to play really fast or even slow. For example I had 2 games of proper rough and tumble Premiership stuff back and forth possession, then a typical Euro game were it was a slower followed by a game against West Brom which was played at a snail's pace, all this on gamespeed 0. Now the reason was a combination of things I believe, tactics, the way they attacked and the way I attacked, and my use of sprint too much in the first games and the hardly touching sprint in the last game (this game I won 4-1 by the way and totally mullarised them, which proves take your foot off the gas (sprint button) works in PES).

What I'm trying to say is that the game offered me various ways to play on gamespeed 0 against different teams. The most open end to end game ended 0-0 v Newcastle ironically, and the tighter slower game I won 4-1.

Now onto my main point -

I firmly believe that we are experiencing a change in which football is being played, generally. I think it may be indicative of the now generation we are in, the now now now, me me me generation, but never did a Serie A game between Inter v Juve play like that yesterday. And we had that 4-3 game in which Milan were three nil down, that again was open end to end.

Managers/teams of yesteryear used to have more defensive line ups, with 4-4-2 being seen as the norm and the game tight. Nowadays the players are fitter, faster, more creative etc as well as a raft of other things like ball technology, rule changes all giving that game more speed all the time. I also think players are buying into this mentality. Whereas years ago both teams would be happy to let the other team have endless possession, now it's closing down, pressure and a general attitude of let's play end to end. It's almost as if the players themselves love the nature of this fast paced game. Think Carlos Tevez when I make this point, or Rooney hounding down the opposition.

This is why managers (from everywhere) love the Premier League so much, but I feel it's imparting itself on all other leagues. The Bundesliga years ago used to be awful to watch, now that's end to end with all teams giving it a go.

A team like Barce I feel cannot be used in this argument, the reason they play so slow in build up is because 99% of the time teams park the bus against them, so we have to take them out of the equation. But certainly Man Utd, Real Madrid, Bayern, Milan, Arsenal and a whole host of other premier teams are now all playing fast stuff. Watch Madrid, they are lightening these days.

This argument can be related to PES too. The term 'arcade' is often bandied about to anyone who likes a faster pace game. I have experimented over the last two months with every combination I can think of to get the best out of the game. I have PS3 version of PES and PC version. I played the PS3 version on different screens, different speeds, different settings and the same with the PC. I messed about with stuff so much that (including the patches) that I was dizzy. And after all that, do you know what I prefer the most after a month of faffing about?!? PES out of the box pre-patch on gamespeed 0 lol! The way it came.

It's each to their own, I understand that, but this is what I ENJOY the most. So yes, I do get a little confused at people's definition (and I've been in this boat of labelling too) of what game styles and speeds are.

For me the game 'runs at its best' on gamespeed 0, pre patch. On Top Player too, on the PS3 on my 37" tele, on my 50" plasma the game seems to break a little.

So yeah, my opinion is credit to KONAMI, as I do believe that the game is evolving and that there are far more 'arcade' games in real life than 'sim' ones if you want to categorise. I'm currently watching Sporting v Bilbao, and that is like gamespeed 0! I just think that a human's natural instinct is to attack and to attack quite fast, there are slow games I'm not saying, but these days the games are generally fast, with less ball retention and more creative risk.

I'm sure that for every example I can dig out that games are increasing in pace and speed someone who likes to play on gamespeed -2 can give a counter argument. I'm just providing an angle from which to look at. In trying to replicate the perfect game from the myriad of settings I took my eye off the ball and forgot to ask myself the main question, am I enjoying this? And the answer was no. NOW I AM!

The ironic thing is (pre patch, gamespeed 0) is that you'd think because of the more frantic nature of the gameplay that games would end up 5-5 or something lol, but THAT IS NOT THE CASE!! I'm getting more 0-0, 1-0 games but really good ones with more variation than ever before. And as I've mentioned even at gamespeed 0 pre patch, I'm getting a variation of how the games play out, from end to end lightning counters to more mundane games (like my 4-1 win v West Brom). I honestly believe that clashes of tactics make the game play out differently and not necessarily the game speed. The nil nil end to ender against Newcastle I had just must have been setup perfectly from both camps for the frantic game, whereas my West Brom clash, somehow, was tailor made for a slower game.

So in a nutshell, even my definition of 'sim' and what is going on in real life is changing after seeing many games over the last year from different countries. Formations are evolving (4-3-3 a few years ago would have been crucified, and even now some teams play 3-4-3!) with wing backs being attacking players and player switching become more prevalent. And I also believe that managers will have to evolve into a more faster paced game, I think even Fergie is going to have to acknowledge that a tactics/players change is needed after the noisy neighbours win.

On a side point, and just to finish off, all the pundits of yesteryear harp on about defending etc with Neville and Hansen and Dixon and co shaking their heads. But I do often wonder how even the legendary Arsenal back four would deal with the likes of Tevez, Aguero, SIlva, Torres (when at his best), Persie, Rooney, Ibrahimovic, Ronaldo, Messi, Silva, Suarez etc etc. The fact is, that the game was more physicality based in bygone years. It is silly to compare players from different eras and have match ups because it's like comparing apples to cars. But these modern players are just so good now, so tricky, so fit and so confident that it must be a nightmare for defenders and defences these days. Whilst it doesn't excuse yesterdays 5-3, the pressure on defences is now so huge that errors will become more prone.

Would Adams and Keown have fared so well these days, with everything from ref decisions, to rule changes going in the favour of attackers?[/QUOTE

Excellent post with some very astute obsevations.
i agree about the first half of the Inter/juventus game being a rather frantic affair but was just trying to point out how the game styles could be interpreted if applied to a video game.
Most top flight football now seems to be far more open and attack minded compared to how the game was played even 2 years ago.The Italien league and Bundesligue are classic cases and a far more enjoyable watch than the mostly drab affairs of old.
PES 2012 does a pretty good job of giving players the tools to play this way,should they wish,and I just wish it did'nt take a months work to put the game into a truly playable and enjoyable state,mainly down to the efforts of the PES community who refuse to give up on the game and are determined to drag Konami back to the forefront of gaming.
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LTFC said:
Anyone claiming this game shows any kind of realism is surely having a laugh. Sure, player individuality is great when you're off the ball, but the supposedly 'intelligent' AI is a farce. I just witnessed a series of several Fenerbache players slaloming their way through my entire team like they're skiing or something. Fucking ridiculous behaviour.

Oh, and yeah the game cheats. Big time. I worked and worked to take the lead in that game, took me 50 odd minutes of solid pressure to break down the 11 man defence, and when I did, it took the game 2 and a half minutes to put in a cross, and despite having 5 of my own men in the area, the ball went to a Fenerbache player who was standing 10 yards in space and headed it in. Gibbs was marking him, but part way though the move the AI just made him stop running and stand there until the striker was free.

I'm noticing this a huge amount now - the game removes your defenders from their positioning off the ball for a split second, in order to open up space for the AI.

Like this for example. Note, all the way through the move, I had control of someone else. The defender is marking the striker all the way until just before the pass is made. Then, the AI makes him and the defender to his left just run away from the striker and open up a huge gap for him. Complete AI cheating.

YouTube - AI

When you compare this to a few moments later when I played the ball in to Van Persie's feet in roughly the same position up the other end of the field, and he was hammered from behind before he finished his ball control animation by not one, not two, but THREE defenders so tight to him, and you can see the AI trying to replicate game difficulty in the most cheap, basic and tacky manner possible.

Think I'm actually done with this. Like I said, it's all good and well having players on the ball who feel different from player to player, it's another thing when you have to play against an AI that cheats by moving your defenders out the way before you can control them on a regular basis, and sees even the most average team able to play like Messi on the counter attack. Add to that the instant turning speeds, odd ball behaviour and the game feels more like a cartoon than a simulation.

Gonna trade this for something that's actually fun to play.
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This is the biggest issue for me atm. Against a human opponent this game is the pinnacle of football games. However, against the CPU it is truly a slog.

While I often beat the CPU on Pro and Top Player, the matches often play out like a war of attrition. Player individuality is as good as it's ever been...for human players. I am convinced that certain stats mean absolutely nothing to the CPU.

I have played against team with 'E' for technique who complete passes at the same rate as 'A' teams. I have seen CPU midfielders with low heading stats place perfect headers with 100% consistency. The only stats that seem to really cause any real difference are Speed and Expl. Power.

It's reached the point where I don't bother playing against the CPU anymore. ML didn't even last me a month. If my mates don't come over, I don't play the game. Simple as that.
 
LMAO!!!!!!!!

Just played my 1st full games of PES 2012 on PC. And what I am playing is a reskinned HD version off PES2/PES3.

Cnat beleive 500 page discusiion on this. The game even has same dribbling and silly weird running animations off PES2 on PS2.

The game is an HD version off a mix of PES2/PES3. AND tbh I aint complaining. Its what I wanted PES7 to be. Its not great! Its nothing new! But its the old PEs I used to play but in HD!!!

Well maybe my feelings will change after several more games? But this is my initial impression.

I must say FIFA 12 has raised the bar in football video gaming since the PS2 genertaion so whilst this may have been an ace game in 2007, its lacking in many respects with regards to FIFA (animations, player models, physics/impact engine, atmosphere, stadiums, presentation etc..). But if this was PES7/PEs 2008 released in OCt 2007 this was the best game off the time.

Im looking forward to playing master league.

I now have problem off 2 football games I want to play!!
 
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Here it is my first game play file for 2012 to go with mine and Goalgerds option file

http://www.filesonic.com/file/2832683775

I managed to get A LOT more teams edited than I expected to today, this is largely due to some teams having most of their stats upgraded and then just needing their new players done and a very patient girlfriend

All of players at the top clubs in England have been done
All of the players at most big european teams in france, germany, italy, portugal and spain have been done
At least the starting lineups from clubs from turkey, greece, russia, nortern europe have been done as well as some subs
The two south american teams have been done

All of the top european teams have been tested and where as some where ridiculous like Barcelona and Real and others were rubbish like Valencia (in fact most of the rest of the spanish league) all have been made more realistic and balanced.

I have also checked the big national sides to make sure there lineups have all been edited

All teams should give you a challanging game on top player
You should find the game play smoother, much better paced and competitive

Attackers from most clubs should be able to do the job a decent footballer should instead of being shocking at smaller clubs.

Defences should seem tighter and keepers should be much better.

THIS WAS WRITTEN ON KONAMI PATCH 1.01, I have no idea how it will play on 1.0, but it should definitely be tried on 1.01 before making a decision on what you want to use, as I think 1.0 may play too fast and floaty with my stat changed to make it smoother for 1.01

No championship teams have been edited yet, this will happen at a later date as well as a comprehensive update of any teams and subs I have not yet done as well as any changes after feedback.
 
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