PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Bobo21 said:
W
As always, to each their own - I know most players don't even want to be bothered with foul stoppages but it's a major component of the real-life game ag[/IMG]
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I know what you mean but some points.

1. There is a lot of play ons in FIFA. A dman lot off play ons. THe ref always lets play on for silly nudges etc...its pretty good for this.

2. Youre right though fouls are realsitic part of game and it feels weird having few fouls in fifa though it actually makes it flow better with less stopages. PES 5 was spoiled due to stop start nature of game. Need a balance

3. SLide tackles. CPU dont do them and you wont do them much either as there is better options to win ball and less likely to commit fouls. If there was less defensive options and you had to slide and CPU slide more then sure more fouls. I often see games with minimal slide tackles. Again not very realistic. I only slide when I know 100% success.

4. Though not many fouls in FIFA as for penalties WTF!! I swear every other game there is a penalty for no reason. If a player is touched inside the box its a penalty.

5. If you tackle or are tackled whilst performing a skill move theres a very good chance you will win a foul i noticed.
 
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Bobo21 said:
What do you mean when you say 'countless' mate? Maybe we have a differing view of what a desirable foul count for our gaming experience is. I want as close to a sim as possible - 15-20 fouls total for both teams.
I've played FIFA for years and never have come close to that and as stated, played FIFA 12 for two weeks straight at 15-20 minute halves and averaged about 2-3 CPU fouls against me with the high being 5. In addition, there was only a couple games where the CPU received more than one yellow card - most matches they didn't receive any.
Conversely, I've been playing PES 2012 for over 3 weeks now at 15-20 minutes and average 6-7 CPU fouls against with a high of 10. That came in the game pictured here where there were 26 total fouls - that could NEVER happen in a single-player FIFA match of that time length.
As always, to each their own - I know most players don't even want to be bothered with foul stoppages but it's a major component of the real-life game and I prefer it to play a big part in the video game as well.

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TOTALLY agree with you!!

I want the CPU to bring me down and pick up a yellow if I'm about to waltz into a shooting opportunity. Last night I played Chelsea in one of the dirtiesty games I've ever played, they were upset that I was winning one nil, the game finsihed two nil but Chelsea were the better side (this on Top Player). But there were cards all over the place. Steve G got sent off for me (and I'm never a sent off person but it was just one of those games) late on, for two yellows, and the CPU picked up three yellows. It was brilliant. The other day I also had one of the Europa league teams players picking up two yellow cards in 30 minutes for a quick shower!!

This is unheard of in FIFA but it's exactly what happens in real life. On top of Stevie G two yellows last night he was also straight red carded against Arsenal a week or two ago, a nasty slide tackle which just took Walcott out completely inside 15 minutes!

Now like I say, I am honestly NOT a red card freak, I normally don't use the slide tackle function unless absolutely necessary, but this years PES you have to rough the game up a bit and learn to pick up cautions and break the game up especially if you're playing against the better side. In previous PES titles there was no need to play a dirty game, but it is necessary this year when you feel the CPU are better than you.

I played FIFA last week for a bit, and they have this thing called the 'Impact Engine' don't they.....well where are all the free-kicks etc and cards? I played three consecutive games and there wasn't a foul given.

The one thing FIFA does better though is injuries and PES needs to up this level and include lots more little niggling injuries and the big serious half a season ones too!
 
Watching the Chelsea v Arsenal game and the Rangers v Aberdeen i'd say pre patch is alot more realistic than post patch, not a chance in hell do the defending team camp out in the 18 yard and 6 yard boxes. Both games are very end to end attacking football like they are post patch, i think people still think football is like the 90's Serie A football lol.
 
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Flaw3d Genuis said:
Watching the Chelsea v Arsenal game and the Rangers v Aberdeen i'd say pre patch is alot more realistic than post patch, not a chance in hell do the defending team camp out in the 18 yard and 6 yard boxes. Both games are very end to end attacking football like they are post patch, i think people still think football is like the 90's Serie A football lol.
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LOL yeah, and I think all those with gamespeed -2 need to change it too lol!!!

I'm not happy with it, it's TOO ARCADE this Chelsea game!
 
@Jimmy

Professional is very balanced on both patches but my pes ocd and man pride keep on superstar haha, pathetic of me really but you know what its like.

Despite frustrations I keep coming back to the game which is a good sign, I feel their is much more to discover and maybe part of me is stuck in pes 2011 mode. I am excited by the times ahead with this game even though I have some concerns.

Jimmy whats your opinion on passing, I use 0 assistance and the manual pass with LT, I love it despite individuality not being pronounced as 2011. I do feel that the long passing is not as good, the variation you could achieve with the 2011 system has been toned down a bit.

First touch with the close control button is fantastic, I used it last night to control an airball on the chest, knock it to volley height and unleash a strike.
 
UTD-PEARSON said:
@Jimmy

Professional is very balanced on both patches but my pes ocd and man pride keep on superstar haha, pathetic of me really but you know what its like.

Despite frustrations I keep coming back to the game which is a good sign, I feel their is much more to discover and maybe part of me is stuck in pes 2011 mode. I am excited by the times ahead with this game even though I have some concerns.

Jimmy whats your opinion on passing, I use 0 assistance and the manual pass with LT, I love it despite individuality not being pronounced as 2011. I do feel that the long passing is not as good, the variation you could achieve with the 2011 system has been toned down a bit.

First touch with the close control button is fantastic, I used it last night to control an airball on the chest, knock it to volley height and unleash a strike.
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I find the passing individuality on Zero the best it's ever been. I'm literally gobsmacked as to how people can see this differently to be honest. I know the limits of a good majority of the Bolton squad so far, and I'm fully aware of what I should try and what I shouldnt with each player. Petrov is amazing with the clever stuff, i.e Lobbed and Decked Through-balls. He is the stand-out player for Bolton capable of unlocking the oppositions defences. Most teams in real-life, bar the likes of Barca, have maybe one or two's players in the team that can do this, and this is replicated perfectly well for me. In most PES titles, there were a good few players capable of 'threading' these passes, it's less so now, and better for it.

Love the R2 first-touch as well. Pulled off a stunning spin and turn last night with Davies that just looked sooooooooooooooooo realistic I had to watch it over and over again. His finish was sublime as well, but it was the turn the made it.

I'm sorry, but the comparisons of PES 6 and PES 2012 are laughable, or at least they are when you play Zero. I accept Konami screwed up by trying to appeal to the masses with this whole Assisted bullshit. But, there is a fantastic simulation of football to be had in that game with the right settings. It's like they kept us hardcore happy to an extent with the Zero, then gave the rest of the casual crowd something to appease them.

I've honestly cannot remember the last time I got so excited about scoring in goal in PES, I really cant.

Playing Professional, post-patch with lower teams is such an amazing challenge. I love it.

Edit - Your own defensive A.I. is also so much better I've found post-patch. Alot more organised.
 
I'll say this, PES 2012 would be a nearly perfect game of football for me if it wasn't for the "boost" that the CPU decides to give its own players when it feels like doing so, turning teams that are normally not great at all into footballing gods, that make 100% perfect passes, dribble like Messi, and take the ball from your best players easily.

It's random, sometimes it (the CPU) does that, other times it doesn't. When they don't, oh boy what a game this is. When they do, you'll feel cheated. That's why people are constantly changing their opinion regarding the game, it randomly and occasionally makes itself impossible to play.
 
@jimmy

I do like the ground passes and I sill see individuality, at the moment I have chantome and matuidi and even with the manual modifier I notice a difference. My main gripe is with long passing, it takes skill and is enjoyable but the amount of power you can apply is too contextual and does not mix stats and user input as well as 2011 in my own experience. I think their needs to be more error with long passing.

Through balls are much better this year, less laser guided and nice mix between stats and user input.

I adore the shooting, it builds on last years model but with extra variation in terms of shot trajectory. I love how the shooting allows you to envisage what you would do in real life and apply it to the game.
 
The power of a 60-70 yard pass is now gone, but it's a fine line between realism and what we had in PES 2011. Having the ability to smash the ball 70-80 yards with a pass isnt the most realistic, even though it was fun. They have a decent balance now, I'm happy with it for the most part.
 
I dunno, I've been playing this pre-patch and - while I can see how blatantly rushed Konami's fixes are in 1.01, how quick-and-dirty they are, and how some of them really detract from the game - I'm not sure it's much better overall.

It's very nice not to have to face a parked-bus defence every time (even when you're FC Lorient and the cpu is Barcelona), but that defending is the only thing in the post-patch game which really gets me down badly. I like the fact that it's tighter and less of a wild attacking skillfest in 1.01, and the sheer shitness of the goalies in 1.0 really is a gamebreaker. It's not just that they're shielded by the throttled shooting and the massed defence, they actually were much much worse pre-patch. And for me, the advantages of 1.0 are totally cancelled out by this.

I play 90% online anyway (only because of PEEL - if that didn't exist I'd be offline-only, I think). But I'm reinstalling the patch, for now at least.
 
Pere Ubu said:
I dunno, I've been playing this pre-patch and - while I can see how blatantly rushed Konami's fixes are in 1.01, how quick-and-dirty they are, and how some of them really detract from the game - I'm not sure it's much better overall.

It's very nice not to have to face a parked-bus defence every time (even when you're FC Lorient and the cpu is Barcelona), but that defending is the only thing in the post-patch game which really gets me down badly. I like the fact that it's tighter and less of a wild attacking skillfest in 1.01, and the sheer shitness of the goalies in 1.0 really is a gamebreaker. It's not just that they're shielded by the throttled shooting and the massed defence, they actually were much much worse pre-patch. And for me, the advantages of 1.0 are totally cancelled out by this.

I play 90% online anyway (only because of PEEL - if that didn't exist I'd be offline-only, I think). But I'm reinstalling the patch, for now at least.
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whats PEEL?
 
Flaw3d Genuis said:
Watching the Chelsea v Arsenal game and the Rangers v Aberdeen i'd say pre patch is alot more realistic than post patch, not a chance in hell do the defending team camp out in the 18 yard and 6 yard boxes. Both games are very end to end attacking football like they are post patch, i think people still think football is like the 90's Serie A football lol.
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I also was amused to watch the "arcade" type football played at breakneck speed in the Chelsea game.
Conversely,watching the Inter Milan/juventus match on ESPN last night with its slow build up play,sudden bursts and dodgy defences seemed more of a simulation of football as we perceive football to be played on the gaming scene.
Maybe we are being too over analytical of this game as you can quite literally replicate both of those matches using patches,assists,tactics,whatever.
Both games,if viewed as a video game would have their supporters and critics for either being too arcadey or too slow and unrealistic.But they were real matches and thats what they played like.
Maybe Konamis game, for all its bugs and flaws, which we all hate should,be given a little kudos for replicating football in its extremes.
 
kgulls said:
I also was amused to watch the "arcade" type football played at breakneck speed in the Chelsea game.
Conversely,watching the Inter Milan/juventus match on ESPN last night with its slow build up play,sudden bursts and dodgy defences seemed more of a simulation of football as we perceive football to be played on the gaming scene.
Maybe we are being too over analytical of this game as you can quite literally replicate both of those matches using patches,assists,tactics,whatever.
Both games,if viewed as a video game would have their supporters and critics for either being too arcadey or too slow and unrealistic.But they were real matches and thats what they played like.
Maybe Konamis game, for all its bugs and flaws, which we all hate should,be given a little kudos for replicating football in its extremes.
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Very good post.
It is all about getting the balance right, between simulation and arcade.
The best pes games managed to achieve this, and 2012 is no different.
It all depends on how you want to play the game. Some will prefer simulation, i.e. slow build up play with plenty of passing while others prefer the more arcade style of end to end open attacking football.
This game manages to achieve both styles and also mixes it up well.
A true representation of football.
 
Re: PES 2011 Discussion thread

Gab_ said:
I can see PES 2012 going in the right direction. But now when the PES guy is vice president (or whatever) for Konami, I'm afraid they will put more money in it and try to challenge EA again and try to make it a game for everyone (more arcady and shallow).

I actually rather see them give up and just go back trying to make it for the sim heads and get popular because of sim heads recommending it to others. Like how NBA2K sank EA NBA because the sim heads told everyone to play it if they knew anything about basketball. NBA2K or GTFO.
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spot on :APPLAUD: ..it perfectly suites my thoughts.
 
makky said:
Very good post.
It is all about getting the balance right, between simulation and arcade.
The best pes games managed to achieve this, and 2012 is no different.
It all depends on how you want to play the game. Some will prefer simulation, i.e. slow build up play with plenty of passing while others prefer the more arcade style of end to end open attacking football.
This game manages to achieve both styles and also mixes it up well.
A true representation of football.
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So the Chelsea game yesterday and all the other British games were "arcade" and not realistic?

I honestly cant see how that makes any sense?
 
Flaw3d Genuis said:
So the Chelsea game yesterday and all the other British games were "arcade" and not realistic?

I honestly cant see how that makes any sense?
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What i meant was; if you played a game which ended up being 5 - 3 and was completely open attacking football it may be perceived as being arcadey.
But it happened yesterday and will no doubt happen again.
I never meant a Premier League game was arcade.
 
makky said:
What i meant was; if you played a game which ended up being 5 - 3 and was completely open attacking football it may be perceived as being arcadey.
But it happened yesterday and will no doubt happen again.
I never meant a Premier League game was arcade.
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If fast attacking football happens in real life then playing fast attacking football in a computer game has to be simulation as well.
 
kgulls said:
I also was amused to watch the "arcade" type football played at breakneck speed in the Chelsea game.
Conversely,watching the Inter Milan/juventus match on ESPN last night with its slow build up play,sudden bursts and dodgy defences seemed more of a simulation of football as we perceive football to be played on the gaming scene.
Maybe we are being too over analytical of this game as you can quite literally replicate both of those matches using patches,assists,tactics,whatever.
Both games,if viewed as a video game would have their supporters and critics for either being too arcadey or too slow and unrealistic.But they were real matches and thats what they played like.
Maybe Konamis game, for all its bugs and flaws, which we all hate should,be given a little kudos for replicating football in its extremes.
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I have been thinking about this a lot lately, and the more I think of it the more I feel that KONAMI may be right in the way the game is.

Yesterday we had that Chelsea game, end to end for the full ninety, much like any Premiership game is. I kind of disagree with you about that Inter v Juve match being more sim, that was even more end to end in the first half than the Chelsea game lol!! Right until the players were just knackered and Juve played keep ball.

Now I had played four games of PES this morning on PS3 setup on my 37" LCD. The game was on zero gamespeed, pre patch, which I now believe to be the speed at which the game was intended (to not break the game or have any funny things happening) but it provides the opportunity to play really fast or even slow. For example I had 2 games of proper rough and tumble Premiership stuff back and forth possession, then a typical Euro game were it was a slower followed by a game against West Brom which was played at a snail's pace, all this on gamespeed 0. Now the reason was a combination of things I believe, tactics, the way they attacked and the way I attacked, and my use of sprint too much in the first games and the hardly touching sprint in the last game (this game I won 4-1 by the way and totally mullarised them, which proves take your foot off the gas (sprint button) works in PES).

What I'm trying to say is that the game offered me various ways to play on gamespeed 0 against different teams. The most open end to end game ended 0-0 v Newcastle ironically, and the tighter slower game I won 4-1.

Now onto my main point -

I firmly believe that we are experiencing a change in which football is being played, generally. I think it may be indicative of the now generation we are in, the now now now, me me me generation, but never did a Serie A game between Inter v Juve play like that yesterday. And we had that 4-3 game in which Milan were three nil down, that again was open end to end.

Managers/teams of yesteryear used to have more defensive line ups, with 4-4-2 being seen as the norm and the game tight. Nowadays the players are fitter, faster, more creative etc as well as a raft of other things like ball technology, rule changes all giving that game more speed all the time. I also think players are buying into this mentality. Whereas years ago both teams would be happy to let the other team have endless possession, now it's closing down, pressure and a general attitude of let's play end to end. It's almost as if the players themselves love the nature of this fast paced game. Think Carlos Tevez when I make this point, or Rooney hounding down the opposition.

This is why managers (from everywhere) love the Premier League so much, but I feel it's imparting itself on all other leagues. The Bundesliga years ago used to be awful to watch, now that's end to end with all teams giving it a go.

A team like Barce I feel cannot be used in this argument, the reason they play so slow in build up is because 99% of the time teams park the bus against them, so we have to take them out of the equation. But certainly Man Utd, Real Madrid, Bayern, Milan, Arsenal and a whole host of other premier teams are now all playing fast stuff. Watch Madrid, they are lightening these days.

This argument can be related to PES too. The term 'arcade' is often bandied about to anyone who likes a faster pace game. I have experimented over the last two months with every combination I can think of to get the best out of the game. I have PS3 version of PES and PC version. I played the PS3 version on different screens, different speeds, different settings and the same with the PC. I messed about with stuff so much that (including the patches) that I was dizzy. And after all that, do you know what I prefer the most after a month of faffing about?!? PES out of the box pre-patch on gamespeed 0 lol! The way it came.

It's each to their own, I understand that, but this is what I ENJOY the most. So yes, I do get a little confused at people's definition (and I've been in this boat of labelling too) of what game styles and speeds are.

For me the game 'runs at its best' on gamespeed 0, pre patch. On Top Player too, on the PS3 on my 37" tele, on my 50" plasma the game seems to break a little.

So yeah, my opinion is credit to KONAMI, as I do believe that the game is evolving and that there are far more 'arcade' games in real life than 'sim' ones if you want to categorise. I'm currently watching Sporting v Bilbao, and that is like gamespeed 0! I just think that a human's natural instinct is to attack and to attack quite fast, there are slow games I'm not saying, but these days the games are generally fast, with less ball retention and more creative risk.

I'm sure that for every example I can dig out that games are increasing in pace and speed someone who likes to play on gamespeed -2 can give a counter argument. I'm just providing an angle from which to look at. In trying to replicate the perfect game from the myriad of settings I took my eye off the ball and forgot to ask myself the main question, am I enjoying this? And the answer was no. NOW I AM!

The ironic thing is (pre patch, gamespeed 0) is that you'd think because of the more frantic nature of the gameplay that games would end up 5-5 or something lol, but THAT IS NOT THE CASE!! I'm getting more 0-0, 1-0 games but really good ones with more variation than ever before. And as I've mentioned even at gamespeed 0 pre patch, I'm getting a variation of how the games play out, from end to end lightning counters to more mundane games (like my 4-1 win v West Brom). I honestly believe that clashes of tactics make the game play out differently and not necessarily the game speed. The nil nil end to ender against Newcastle I had just must have been setup perfectly from both camps for the frantic game, whereas my West Brom clash, somehow, was tailor made for a slower game.

So in a nutshell, even my definition of 'sim' and what is going on in real life is changing after seeing many games over the last year from different countries. Formations are evolving (4-3-3 a few years ago would have been crucified, and even now some teams play 3-4-3!) with wing backs being attacking players and player switching become more prevalent. And I also believe that managers will have to evolve into a more faster paced game, I think even Fergie is going to have to acknowledge that a tactics/players change is needed after the noisy neighbours win.

On a side point, and just to finish off, all the pundits of yesteryear harp on about defending etc with Neville and Hansen and Dixon and co shaking their heads. But I do often wonder how even the legendary Arsenal back four would deal with the likes of Tevez, Aguero, SIlva, Torres (when at his best), Persie, Rooney, Ibrahimovic, Ronaldo, Messi, Silva, Suarez etc etc. The fact is, that the game was more physicality based in bygone years. It is silly to compare players from different eras and have match ups because it's like comparing apples to cars. But these modern players are just so good now, so tricky, so fit and so confident that it must be a nightmare for defenders and defences these days. Whilst it doesn't excuse yesterdays 5-3, the pressure on defences is now so huge that errors will become more prone.

Would Adams and Keown have fared so well these days, with everything from ref decisions, to rule changes going in the favour of attackers?
 
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