PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Just had an amazing last 10 minutes, i was 2-1 up quite comfortable and panathaikos had the ball and tried to cross it but no one got on the end of it and it just curled into the bottom corner on the 86th minute. seemed like it was going to finish that way til the 90th minute where i crossed it and they headed it out the way and yaya toure brought the ball down and hit it from 30 yards roughly, bar and in, such a beauty of a strike. i ended up with 23 shots with 11 on target to there 7 and 4. Felt alot more control in that game and could find gaps and spaces to run in to. brilliant
 
curdstar said:
I'm doing some tinkering with keeper stats in pre-patch and think I might be on to something...

PES' stats system is as we all know pretty pronounced but it requires a player to have the right blend for them to be the player they are and excel in their position. The problem with default stats assignment to the keepers in PES is that this blend is missing. If a player is any good in PES he has to be fairly decent in most disciplines, with the superstars being blessed with key stats that push beyond the 95 mark for them to really stand out. Keepers stats out with the keys stats for the role have them as pretty rubbish football players in general. That isn't a good mix for them in this game. They need to better players in other disciplines even if it doesn't appear that they need to be.

So, with this in mind I edited a few 'keeps and instead of just ramping up key keeper stats alone, I made sure that they were decent, not stupidly good but just decent at things like heading, ball control, dribble speed and even boosted their attack stat up to 50. also, I increased their defensive awareness rating to 3 bars. The way I see it is that they are always only going to be keepers so them being good at other things is only going to be in the position of goalkeeper. I guess what I am saying is that if you offer the keepers the tools required to be good football players who happen to be blessed with excellent keeper abilities, it sees them improve in that position all round. It is after that do the key stats for a goal keeper being better make them even better.

I find the key keeper stats, the ones that you shouldn't be scared to push past 90 or even 95 to be as follows:

Goalkeeping Skills (obviously)
Response
Defence
Jump
Body Balance
Stamina
Tenacity
Defence Awareness set to 3

Oh, and you are best setting weak foot accuracy up to 5 and it's use to 6 for them and ramp up condition to 7 minimum.

I would increase ball control as well as my thinking is increased ball control to go along with good keeping stats will show better agility, awareness and positioning. Explosiveness as well could be worth increasing fairly liberally as well.
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Yea I realized this back in the PS2 days. For example, I couldn't get myself to understand why Kirkland was a very good keeper reacting and showing better animations compared to others with higher defense and keeper stats. He had his stats in the 80's from what I remember, yet he felt better than others in his range or better. I then looked at a few super keeper stats and compared with Kirkland's. What I found is that Kirkland had better "technique" stat compared to the others. I then went on to see who else from keepers had good technique stat and from what I remember Given had that too. No wonder they always stood out for me. Kirkland was always a choice for me. I just loved some of his not-seen-before save animations.

Maybe it's the same case here?
 
Lami said:
Yea I realized this back in the PS2 days. For example, I couldn't get myself to understand why Kirkland was a very good keeper reacting and showing better animations compared to others with higher defense and keeper stats. He had his stats in the 80's from what I remember, yet he felt better than others in his range or better. I then looked at a few super keeper stats and compared with Kirkland's. What I found is that Kirkland had better "technique" stat compared to the others. I then went on to see who else from keepers had good technique stat and from what I remember Given had that too. No wonder they always stood out for me. Kirkland was always a choice for me. I just loved some of his not-seen-before save animations.

Maybe it's the same case here?
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This is exactly why I think Konami should publish the design data explaining what stats influence on screen action, and other game mechanics like how the passing speed/power bar ratio is calculated at different assistance level, etc.

So whenever they patch the game saying "improved xxx," there is a way for the players to verify the changes, and it would also help the players come up with more precise suggestions on how to improve the game.

For example, in the keeper example above, that technique is really what determines the variety of animation a keep exhibits, then it will be clear that the way to improve keepers is to either boost the stats of all keepers, or to redo the ratio in which the game interprets the stats.

It feels like within Konami somewhere, some guy is pulling his hair out wondering why no matter what changes he make to the AI code, the keepers don't behave the way he expects, when all that has to be done is to boost the stats.
 
Srider said:
This is exactly why I think Konami should publish the design data explaining what stats influence on screen action, and other game mechanics like how the passing speed/power bar ratio is calculated at different assistance level, etc.

So whenever they patch the game saying "improved xxx," there is a way for the players to verify the changes, and it would also help the players come up with more precise suggestions on how to improve the game.

For example, in the keeper example above, that technique is really what determines the variety of animation a keep exhibits, then it will be clear that the way to improve keepers is to either boost the stats of all keepers, or to redo the ratio in which the game interprets the stats.

It feels like within Konami somewhere, some guy is pulling his hair out wondering why no matter what changes he make to the AI code, the keepers don't behave the way he expects, when all that has to be done is to boost the stats.
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Totally agree.

We should have them huge detailed books like back in the day. Now it's merely called a book. Or they can maybe even publish a very detailed pdf on their website as well.
 
I think shooting was the same on PES 2011...anyone with a really high stat for technique had better animations.

Maybe just go through and edit all the technique stats for keepers.

Wait...no one will read this anyway...will they Lami :P

haha
 
Poor Frank. I feel your pain lol.

And yes, this game needs a Piggyback guide more than ever. There are so many hidden controls etc that some people might not know about, unless it's shared over here. I'm pretty sure this is known, but for those talking about headers not being won, do you use R2 to position your player while the ball is in the air? I do that, and I find that quite a realistc percentage of headers can be won by my players.
 
I cannot believe what a difference going back to 1.00 has made. Enjoyed a full match for the first time this iteration. I never questioned the auto install of 1.01 - in all seriousness f*ck off Konami.

I just can't believe that they would release something that is so clearly inferior.
 
Yesterday i had a really great match (still patch version).
I'm playing a CL and i recreated the groups as best as i could.
I'm playing with Napoli and my first match was against Bayern in the Allianz Arena. Bayern began fiercely and in the first 30 minutes i was quite lucky to survive. From then on this was a free flowing match with chances on both sides. I had put Napoli on quick counter (which is the way they usually play IMO) and this suited them really well.
From the 75th minute on Napoli took over and was the better team, this resulted in two Cavani goals and a longe range lob on the post by Lavezzi...it's the first time since playing PES that i was able to do something llike that. This game is broken, unfinished and very, very sloppy, but it is still capable to give you moments of pure magic that FIFA12 (the better game without a doubt) can't give you. That is the reason why i still prefer PES to FIFA (and to be honest Konami don't deserve us, i must say that i have much more respect for EA and the way they treat their customers...they are not perfect but compared to Konami...).
 
Of course is deleting the patch has this big a positive on gameplay then X360 owners are screwed. What do you want, better gameplay and stuttering running or a game which is being hammered by all and sundry but at least you can run without stopping every few seconds?

How many people, like me, wanted to buy PES but have ended up with FIFA instead...
 
:DD Has anyone watched the goal celebrations (under 'motion' in edit). Start from the end and go backwards there are some real laughs in there. I like the 'air guitar' one. There's also a funny Michael Jackson-esque lean forward with two feet planted on the ground.

They're almost as funny as the besuited men, sprinting around behind the goals and sidelines during matches. I guess Konami meant to put tracksuits on these guys?
 
Pre-patch, post-patch stuff...

Has anyone else who is back enjoying pre-patch noticed this...

Pre-patch you can actually apply pressure up the field and tackling once again becomes better/more realistic. This is on the Top Player level. Post patch the only way to successfully defend (which became a little boring) was to drop, drop, drop and camp in your box, to press the opposition high up the pitch was nothing short of a deadly sin. Now there seems to be a trade off again, I think this is why the game may seem more frantic all of a sudden, because you can apply pressure differently.

I find I can defend the way I want to now, whether it be a higher risk high pressure game getting in the opponents faces with the possibility of making a tackle and getting the ball back or defend deep.

Post patch on the higher levels this just wasn't possible. I felt that even altering tactics and sliders the game was pre-programmed to drop and defend. Something that sometimes I didn't want to do, again could this be an issue with KONAMI shielding both my keeper and the CPU's?
 
Yeah they've got the moonwalk one as well. And the South African celebration. I think klash did a Billy Jean audio overlay on Nani's moonwalk celebration lol.
 
Flaw3d Genuis said:
No it doesnt, looks like 360 owners will need to put up with the run bug all year with the good gameplay. A fix is coming but my money will be on it makes the game play poorer than currently with no patch.
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Patch 1.01 also takes care of online play. No patch, no online play.
So we are forced to use the patch if we want to play online.
That means we have no choice at all. A game with a sprint-bug, a bad keeper and no online is no choice. That's why I will not try to play without patch.

It looks like Konami has not brought out a 'fix' but a weak work-around, where keepers are protected by stronger defensive play. The stronger the defense, the smaller the chance the keepers has to come in action, which in turn makes the chance smaller for errors of the keepers.
That, Konami, is a form of cheating us! You did not fix anything, you tweaked some parameters and left the keepers in their buggy state.

I would like to inform Jon Murphy about this on Twitter, but I am not able to describe this problem in just 125 characters...
 
ccshopland said:
Pre-patch, post-patch stuff...

Has anyone else who is back enjoying pre-patch noticed this...

Pre-patch you can actually apply pressure up the field and tackling once again becomes better/more realistic. This is on the Top Player level. Post patch the only way to successfully defend (which became a little boring) was to drop, drop, drop and camp in your box, to press the opposition high up the pitch was nothing short of a deadly sin. Now there seems to be a trade off again, I think this is why the game may seem more frantic all of a sudden, because you can apply pressure differently.

I find I can defend the way I want to now, whether it be a higher risk high pressure game getting in the opponents faces with the possibility of making a tackle and getting the ball back or defend deep.

Post patch on the higher levels this just wasn't possible. I felt that even altering tactics and sliders the game was pre-programmed to drop and defend. Something that sometimes I didn't want to do, again could this be an issue with KONAMI shielding both my keeper and the CPU's?
Click to expand...

Yes, definitely.

The freedom to play - offensively or defensively - is back within your control.

I was getting by with the post patch game but I'm truly in love with it now I've reverted to pre-patch.

If I have one main concern, it's that I've gone from not scoring one header in 30+ games, to scoring 4 in 3 games. But maybe that's because the Andy Carroll in the game is the one Liverpool thought they'd bought from Newcastle ;-p
 
ccshopland said:
Pre-patch, post-patch stuff...

Has anyone else who is back enjoying pre-patch noticed this...

Pre-patch you can actually apply pressure up the field and tackling once again becomes better/more realistic. This is on the Top Player level. Post patch the only way to successfully defend (which became a little boring) was to drop, drop, drop and camp in your box, to press the opposition high up the pitch was nothing short of a deadly sin. Now there seems to be a trade off again, I think this is why the game may seem more frantic all of a sudden, because you can apply pressure differently.

I find I can defend the way I want to now, whether it be a higher risk high pressure game getting in the opponents faces with the possibility of making a tackle and getting the ball back or defend deep.

Post patch on the higher levels this just wasn't possible. I felt that even altering tactics and sliders the game was pre-programmed to drop and defend. Something that sometimes I didn't want to do, again could this be an issue with KONAMI shielding both my keeper and the CPU's?
Click to expand...

Definitely post-patch the game suffers from the problem you described where pressuring up field just means the CPU dribbling past all your defenders on Top Player.

I think it's okay to do that if its a fast dribbler against a slow defender, but when the speed gap isn't that big, it should result in a bad tackle and a foul instead of the CPU dribbling past the whole defense with anyone.
 
regarding stats having an effect on animation, the player cards do as well. i've noticed that if you give a player the "long range drive" s06 card it doesnt suddenly make them lethal from long range, it gives them a different contextual animation when shooting from certain angles and it looks amazing, kind of like the FIFA finesse shot but better and with more whip. I've started giving this card to any technical player because it adds some nice variation and realism to the game.

Also I really hate the finesse shot animation in PES, 9 times out of 10 it looks shit and the ball has way too much speed for the amount of backlift in the shot.
 
aitk3n said:
That's the problem these days, not with just pes, the way game industry is, they rush every game out with faults in them and just patch them as i think every game i've bought to date first day release, always have had to download a patch. that's the difference nowadays, u couldn't download updates for your game so developers made sure everything was ironed out and working order, bug free.

how times have changed for the worse
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That's perhaps 33% of the story, yes. Online connectivity offers a safety net that wasn't there before.

Another part of it is that games are more complex these days than they used to be. More lines of code = more bugs. More bugs = less time available to fix all of them, so more leak through into the released product.

Games are also exponentially more expensive to develop than ever before. These increased costs make hitting deadlines and release dates more critical and more pressured in order to maximise return. Therefore companies will prefer to release something on time and patch it later, rather than wait to finish it and delay the release. You only miss out on potential sales that way.

It's a downward spiral and doesn't seem likely to change any time soon.
 
So they made teams defend really deep/really well to protect the "awful" goalkeepers?

How come I consistently see and experience unrealisticly high scorelines then? Seems their master plan failed miserably on my version of the game.

They do defend way too deep though, I just don't think that's the reason.
 
Han said:
Patch 1.01 also takes care of online play. No patch, no online play.
So we are forced to use the patch if we want to play online.
That means we have no choice at all. A game with a sprint-bug, a bad keeper and no online is no choice. That's why I will not try to play without patch.

It looks like Konami has not brought out a 'fix' but a weak work-around, where keepers are protected by stronger defensive play. The stronger the defense, the smaller the chance the keepers has to come in action, which in turn makes the chance smaller for errors of the keepers.
That, Konami, is a form of cheating us! You did not fix anything, you tweaked some parameters and left the keepers in their buggy state.

I would like to inform Jon Murphy about this on Twitter, but I am not able to describe this problem in just 125 characters...
Click to expand...

Youve hit the nail on the head,bravo.Pre-patch the end user has to be smart with his defensive play to protect the weaknesses of the keepers,it doesnt feel so forced,always a better solution then latter ie patch 1.01.

Konami also need to do polls and surveys asking things like what people think of the shooting,keepers ect when they release a demo.That way you get the whole picture and a greater corilation of what the fans want adjusting.Rather then taking the voice of some as gospel.

Konami also have a different ideology then EA,who have over the course of the last 5 years just refined the same game,they have never made wholesale adjustments or tryed to re-invent there basic formula.Every fifa this gen has felt like the same game,you dont have to learn a new control interface or get used to the changed nuances of things like shooting and passing.People love there comfort zones though,thats why COD sells by the bucket load every year despite being a linear,gallery shooter.
 
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@ Wabak I think that's a different argument. I think for example if you play a team like Chelsea with three attackers and you also have an aggressive formation with lots of creative players and not many defensive minded players over say fifteen minutes game time then you will get cricket scores, this will also happen if you don't play defence particularly well. The why I setup and play is as good as I can play the game, so I tend to get realistic score lines.

Also super high shot accuracy and crossing puts everything in the favour of the attackers this year, it seems that attackers have about twenty million attributes and cards and poor defenders have about one or two. For example Jamie Carragher is almost useless on this game because he probably has low speed.

But what we are urging is that okay fine, make a game like this but we want the freedom to shoot where we want plus be able to use a different method of defending instead of just dropping back.
 
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Expander said:
Konami also have a different ideology then EA,who have over the course of the last 5 years just refined the same game,they have never made wholesale adjustments or tryed to re-invent there basic formula.Every fifa this gen has felt like the same game,you dont have to learn a new control interface or get used to the changed nuances of things like shooting and passing.People love there comfort zones though,thats why COD sells by the bucket load every year despite being a linear,corridor shooter.
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The thing is Konami used to be masters of changing hardly anything from ISS to PES 1-2 and then PES 3-6, however the reason why they are having to change tons of things each year is due to how shit the games have been, really this is the first good PES on nxt-gen so next year it should only be small changes but no doubt it wont be the case.

Also i think were all secretly holding out for a proper nxt-gen PES title so if it doesnt come next year then i guess we are waiting to Xbox 3 or PS4. :CONFUSE:
 
wabak said:
So they made teams defend really deep/really well to protect the "awful" goalkeepers?

How come I consistently see and experience unrealisticly high scorelines then? Seems their master plan failed miserably on my version of the game.

They do defend way too deep though, I just don't think that's the reason.
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No offence bud but you must be very bad at the game if your seeing un-realistic score lines every match pre-patch and your definetly not defending properly.I get a good game from the cpu on top player and although success isnt always guaranteed.I never feel cheated or does the end score look like a cricket score.Offence is the best form of defense and the cpu cant hurt you if you have possession of the ball.

When i watch alot of people play pes2012,they seem to just rush forward,have a over reliance on the short passing and dont mix it up enough.Pes2012 has so many variations in the way you can play both defensively and offensively.The things you can do with the long passing with zero assistance defies believe.Its the same with defending pre-patch.

This is definetly a game that goes up a different gear if your creative and play clever football.
 
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nerf said:
That's perhaps 33% of the story, yes. Online connectivity offers a safety net that wasn't there before.

Another part of it is that games are more complex these days than they used to be. More lines of code = more bugs. More bugs = less time available to fix all of them, so more leak through into the released product.

Games are also exponentially more expensive to develop than ever before. These increased costs make hitting deadlines and release dates more critical and more pressured in order to maximise return. Therefore companies will prefer to release something on time and patch it later, rather than wait to finish it and delay the release. You only miss out on potential sales that way.

It's a downward spiral and doesn't seem likely to change any time soon.
Click to expand...

Spot on. In addition, some friends in the game industry have told me some pretty horrible stories about tons of work gone to waste, bugs being deliberately ignored for some well known AAA titles purely because their publisher told them to do it, all in the name of releasing the game on time. Publishers don't give a shit about pretty much anything other than building up hype then getting that hyped product out on time, which is where the unfinished nature of games, and subsequently patches, comes from.

Games publishers are the main reason why games come out unfinished - as the industry gets more expensive, and profits of even more importance, so the publishers expect development teams to release something on time.
 
Flaw3d Genuis said:
The thing is Konami used to be masters of changing hardly anything from ISS to PES 1-2 and then PES 3-6, however the reason why they are having to change tons of things each year is due to how shit the games have been, really this is the first good PES on nxt-gen so next year it should only be small changes but no doubt it wont be the case.

Also i think were all secretly holding out for a proper nxt-gen PES title so if it doesnt come next year then i guess we are waiting to Xbox 3 or PS4. :CONFUSE:
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Absolutely,back in the day it was just refinement,refinement,refinement.I think this has also left a bitter taste in some people mouths who liked pes2011 and just hoped they refined pes2011.Personally i couldnt go back i found at times pes2011 was like pulling teeth and felt like a chore.
 
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