PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

I hate the link feints and i flat out refuse to use them. I also hate Fifa's trick system because it's too convoluted and you often end up doing some stupid fancy trick when you want to merely do a stepover though i think it's a slight cut above link feints. Seriously PES' RB/R1 double tap was so great and simple. I've no idea why they made stepovers (the easiest trick) annoying to do on both games. Tricks annoy me a lot because they had a great system and then they opted for a new system for the sole purpose of allowing more fancier looking tricks which for the most part have such little place in a game outside of 5 a side football, this at the expense of allowing a simple system for the most often seen tricks being quick to achieve (stepovers, flicking the ball up, dragging the ball back and the marseille roulette).

Even PES 2010 had a better system albeit worse than versions before it for the aforementioned 'simple tricks'. Buttons should be button/control assigned and not determined before a match. It's one sign that Konami forgot about what their audience liked about the earlier iterations. I think you can do tricks holding L2 + Right stick but it seemed pretty random to me as to what trick said player will do whenever i tried it (which wasn't often).
 
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Lami said:
Is this still going?

Not enough sweat and Portsmouth not in screens.

Pre-order cancelled.

Seriously though, these screens sort of remind me of this,
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Same here.

Plus this :
33592-pes6-xbox360.jpg

At the time, we were still playing PES6 on PS2/PC and I remember feeling really excited about how PES would be on next-gen consoles !
 
Northzzz said:
I hate the link feints and i flat out refuse to use them. I also hate Fifa's trick system because it's too convoluted and you often end up doing some stupid fancy trick when you want to merely do a stepover though i think it's a slight cut above link feints. Seriously PES' RB/R1 double tap was so great and simple. I've no idea why they made stepovers (the easiest trick) annoying to do on both games. Tricks annoy me a lot because they had a great system and then they opted for a new system for the sole purpose of allowing more fancier looking tricks which for the most part have such little place in a game outside of 5 a side football, this at the expense of allowing a simple system for the most often seen tricks being quick to achieve (stepovers, flicking the ball up, dragging the ball back and the marseille roulette).

Even PES 2010 had a better system albeit worse than versions before it for the aforementioned 'simple tricks'. Buttons should be button/control assigned and not determined before a match. It's one sign that Konami forgot about what their audience liked about the earlier iterations. I think you can do tricks holding L2 + Right stick but it seemed pretty random to me as to what trick said player will do whenever i tried it (which wasn't often).
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I mastered the tricks on FIFA. they great but you know, i hate the generic way they are performed. PES's trick system has always been pretty crap. I feel it lags behind FIFA so much with FIFA's building block system, Even the old PS2 system was just too limited for me, same with PES 2009 and 2010, very limited, also Where is the rabona cross fake and scoop etc..

Then again i think maybe Konami with the link feints where just putting a marker down. Later hopefully with PES 2012 to blend them together but only if stats are relevant. I don't think they wanted to put them in in a generic way like FIFA does.

Tricks i feel are quite important for PES to get right. Many wingers do a multitude of them these days. Obviously i don't want a game where you play like those skill monkeys in FIFA but what I want is:


1. If they keep the link feints, fine, but depending on stats regarding Agility, technique, dribble accuracy and most importantly player cards. If someone has the trickster card, they should be able to do most tricks without failing. Alternatively the players without if they have the step on card, will bean expert in utilizing that. The speed of which they do the trick should depend on agility and how it links with the next one!

For example the useless bastard and the poor man's fat nose can do every trick but Robinho would do them faster and his step overs, turns etc.. would be faster and he would link from move to move better. Even in comparison to fat nose himself.

2. If I'm playing against the AI they are Brazil against Hulk, that useless bastard, pato, Neymar etc.. or Portugal with Quaresma, ratface, Nani, i want them to try multiple step overs, try flip flaps against me. because they do that in real life. It's not all they should do but players like Quaresma, Tarrabt, ratface, Hazard do try a lot of tricks. Thats just modern day football!
 
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I quite like the tricks at the minute - the simple tricks such as body feints, stepovers, dragbacks, dragback turns, sidesteps, ball rolls etc. are all easy to perform after using free training mode for a bit while using the command list and tutorial videos.
I've used them to great effect online, but I rarely see my opponents even attempt one trick in a whole match - I by no means spam the tricks, but I do use them fairly often where I feel they will enhance my dribbling.

What I don't want to see is rabona crosses, rabona fakes, rainbow flicks, hocus-pocus, double elasticos, ball juggling tricks and just general showboating moves.
Maybe the odd rabona for players with 1 for weak foot frequency when the ball is in the perfect position for it, but a lot of FIFA's tricks are VERY rarely seen in professional football.

I'd like to see the lethal dribblers pulling out a few tricks when under AI control though, the AI in general doesn't feel varied enough between opposing players.
 
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You know i've got nothing inherently against fancy tricks but as you point out yourself it's a small minority of players who actually go about to do those tricks. The current system has done away with the ease of average player tricks in order to accommodate those. Stepovers are simply too fiddly on FIFA the way they are set out with the half flick thing, honestly i just cannot consistently pull them off. Sometimes they work, sometimes i end up doing another trick and most of the time it does nothing, it's a stepover for ffs why is it so difficult when more complex tricks are easier to pull off because they have an easier input method I don't think it's just me, i have never see players try stepovers online or in local multiplayer since the new system was put in, it is always fancy and complex tricks. They lump all tricks into the same category (as you put it the generic way they are performed) and it shouldn't be that way. Why is it not button presses for the easier tricks and the control stick for more complex tricks? Hell even a rainbow flick is easier to do than a stepover on fifa which makes no sense.

You're right when you imply the old PES system was a bit behind because it only had a few simple tricks, i was simply highlighting how i liked how it was very simple to pull off those tricks where as now it's more difficult just because they have adopted a new system in order to accommodate a whole multitude of new tricks. Again like Fifa they basically have one category for tricks and that isn't right because some tricks should be much harder to achieve and only really be able to be pulled off by a small minority of players, like the ones that you mentioned. With the feint links system it's like PES is saying that it's as easy to do a stepover on the spot and it is to achieve a rainbow flick or a rabona flick and scoop. To me that isn't a good system.

I think that's where Fifa's star system works pretty well, in theory at least. It's nice to have system whereby you can make sure certain players aren't able to attempt tricks that they simply wouldn't in real life.

Obviously my whole point is against the current system not the inclusion of certain tricks. In a perfect world for both games i'd allow a button input assignment for simple tricks such as the step-over or flick up or dragback and go for a more complex L2+Control stick for more difficult tricks and have a star system like Fifas to make sure certain players don't attempt complex tricks.
 
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I like the stepovers in PES and FIFA - it allows for reverse stepovers and the ability to control the exact amount of them.

Seriously, practice them until you have them perfect, I don't think they're that difficult - I can face up to defenders and tease them with about six quick ones (better with the likes of Ronaldo) or just throw in the odd one here and there, and use the reverse stepovers and a turn to wrong-foot defenders.
I don't know, maybe it's all my time on the EA Skate series that has honed my skills with accurate right stick movements :P.

PES of old had the rapid tapping of L1 or R2 - if I remember correctly R2 would produce two quick stepovers, and L1 would produce three slower stepovers. This isn't as useful IMO.

I agree about the more difficult tricks needing to be more difficult, but PES already does this to an extent - for example an elastico requires you to hold LT, tap the right stick diagonally forwards one way, and the left stick diagonally forwards in the other just after, with perfect timing, whereas a simple body feint is just a tap of the right stick to either side.
 
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Jamezinho said:
Yes, I thought the exact same thing.

It's like 5 years later PES has finally reached this level.
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I thought the same too, except I posted about it yesterday at WENB :P Seriously though, it does look like those screens. It's good to know they reached that kind of quality. In fact, I think they surpassed it in many levels.
 
Rob92 said:
I like the stepovers in PES and FIFA - it allows for reverse stepovers and the ability to control the exact amount of them.

Seriously, practice them until you have them perfect, I don't think they're that difficult - I can face up to defenders and tease them with about six quick ones (better with the likes of Ronaldo) or just throw in the odd one here and there, and use the reverse stepovers and a turn to wrong-foot defenders.
I don't know, maybe it's all my time on the EA Skate series that has honed my skills with accurate right stick movements :P.

PES of old had the rapid tapping of L1 or R2 - if I remember correctly R2 would produce two quick stepovers, and L1 would produce three slower stepovers. This isn't as useful IMO.

I agree about the more difficult tricks needing to be more difficult, but PES already does this to an extent - for example an elastico requires you to hold LT, tap the right stick diagonally forwards one way, and the left stick diagonally forwards in the other just after, with perfect timing, whereas a simple body feint is just a tap of the right stick to either side.
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My point was that an easier system is needed for common tricks and to keep the current system for more complex tricks. As you imply it's a great thing with the current system (LT+Right stick) to have to practice to perfection as it adds the need to learn how to do them. Having to learn to the point of perfection how to do a bloody step-over at any given instant as if it was some incredibly difficult thing to achieve defeats the object of my point. To be honest i think i was wrong when i implied i struggled to do them, that's wrong i can do them pretty easily, but i still find it fiddly and have at times accidentally gone on to do a complex trick when i've just meant to do a step-over. That's probably why i find it annoying, i just don't trust myself to do them at a given instant because i know there's a possible i can end up doing another trick and lose the ball as a result and why i called the right stick too convoluted with tricks.

I have no idea what you mean when you say it isn't useful to have a button tap for a step-over. In my opinion that's the definition of useful. Though i imagine you meant because you can't control the number of step-overs and i would agree with you, they would have to sort that out (i.e one double tap of rb is a double stepover).

I sound like a step-over nut but i'm not i'm just using it as an example of a 'common trick'. I just don't like how both games categorise all tricks as equal and feel the need to have the same system to pull them off. Having link feints in PES means you can pull off a stepover as easy as a running rainbow flick and the LT control stick on fifa means this is the same situation.
 
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You can't pull off complex tricks when trying a stepover can you?

All of the complex tricks require LT to be held, the stepovers are done with the right stick alone, without LT.
 
Never used a link feint. I don't even know how to set one up.

I was never comfortable with the idea from the start and have stayed away from it.
 
I've never used link feints either, don't like the idea to be honest...
 
So guys, when is the konami pre event ? Is it going to be in Japan ? If so, then here in West this event will occur almost a day before, right ?
 
It will be at 9 pm (thursday) here in Brazil. I hope they show actual gameplay footage.I can't waiiit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Rob92 said:
You can't pull off complex tricks when trying a stepover can you?

All of the complex tricks require LT to be held, the stepovers are done with the right stick alone, without LT.
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I meant that about Fifa.

I was conscious when i was writing about the fact that perhaps PES 2011 had another way to pull off tricks other than feint links. I think it does but i never explored them and wasn't informed about how to do them. Am i right in imagining it might be something like PES 2010?
 
Link feints feature is good if you want to set up 1 feint per direction rather than linking multiple feints. That way you can assign 4 separate feints without having to remember the button combo's.

Rob's right - the stepovers are easy to do and don't distract you. Just move the right stick a quarter turn. The other easy one I do which helps is flicking the right stick one way (body feint I think?) and then you can also move the left stick the other way and it feints one way and exits the other. Have been able to get a yard of space on defenders this way and it's let me get a cross into the box.

Another thing though - the other night I was playing and with close control dribbling (no tricks being performed,) my player who is rated around 80 did this great little move where he cut the ball back like the Ronaldo chop but over a very small distance and the ball didn't leave the ground. Hard to explain but you know it once you see it. He beat two defenders like this. I've seen lots of other times where the close control dribbling got my player to get a toe to the ball and beat his defender or draw a foul. SO USEFUL and under-rated!
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
Link feints feature is good if you want to set up 1 feint per direction rather than linking multiple feints. That way you can assign 4 separate feints without having to remember the button combo's.

Rob's right - the stepovers are easy to do and don't distract you. Just move the right stick a quarter turn. The other easy one I do which helps is flicking the right stick one way (body feint I think?) and then you can also move the left stick the other way and it feints one way and exits the other. Have been able to get a yard of space on defenders this way and it's let me get a cross into the box.

Another thing though - the other night I was playing and with close control dribbling (no tricks being performed,) my player who is rated around 80 did this great little move where he cut the ball back like the Ronaldo chop but over a very small distance and the ball didn't leave the ground. Hard to explain but you know it once you see it. He beat two defenders like this. I've seen lots of other times where the close control dribbling got my player to get a toe to the ball and beat his defender or draw a foul. SO USEFUL and under-rated!
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Agree. Yeah i know that Ronanldochop movement, i think it's just turning at a angle with the right precise timing and he does it. Can be very effective at times :)
 
Yeah it's awesome. A sharp little turn that sees the ball go from your right foot to left foot but behind your body ;) I think that player I used has the speed merchant card. He has been able to wiggle his way past defenders near the intersection of the 6 yard box and the touchline...then he got brought down for a penalty, which I missed haha!
 
Having played against Rob in a couple of friendlies and seen some of his goals on here, I can attest his method being a good way to use the feints. Just enough variation to the dribbling and body movement to make the AI or a human opponent not be able to guess where the ball carrier will go. Very handy.

Conversely, I have played against people who just do stupid moves for the sake of it and out of context...and without any kind of fluidity.

P.S. Rob - when you free for another game...Kewell has his legs back now haha
 
Talking tricks, I love how their implemented in FIFA and PES 11' actually copied that system but without it being as good (mainly because the animation system isn't up to scratch and response times aren't good enough) L2 + Rstick is so easy to use that I get confused how people find it difficult, the Ronaldo chop is even easier in FIFA now with just using a fake shot which is extremely effective and easy to use.

The Problem both games have is they have added "tricks" that really shouldn't be in their.

All that should really be necessary IMO is

Skilled Dribble L2-R2 (both games have this but FIFA's looks much more polished obviously)
Step Overs (Current system is fine but when choosing to go left or right is a problem in PES as the player doesn't seem to execute that little burst into the direction you chose like FIFA)
Ronaldo Chop (FIFA's take on using the fake shot is genius, very easy and greatly effective, PES's version is horrible, the player for some reason decides to kick it a mile away losing all control of the ball.
Feints
Rabona (should randomly occur with Ronaldo,Nani, Quaresma Di Maria etc.)
Flip Flap - for some reason I've actually hardly ever used this trick because I never found it effective in game but it should definitely be in
Ball Roll fake - simple effective trick
Roulette
Trick Pass - Should Randomly occur with skilled individual named above for example

I'd say that covers it rather than going far to unrealistic, PES needs to definitely refine some of the animations though like the Ronaldo chop is horrible for example
 
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To be honest Fifa has gone too far with how effective tricks are where as most tricks in PES rarely give you any advantage at all. I'm not counting the Rainbow Flick they had to patch as effective because it was just overly ridiculous and Konami knew they got that wrong.

I'd like to think that you can get tricked easily in fifa for basically holding the tackle button and going in too early but i don't really think that's case. In that video none of the defenders position themselves well even if they aren't going in for the tackle. Ease of doing trick at any given instance and defender not responding by positioning themselves well enough to cut out the pass doesn't bode well at all (e.g the rooney trick to the pass into the 6 yard box at about 58 secs). I think it's ridiculous how you can stop in front on the keeper and do a trick to score tbh, it shows how keepers commit themselves to coming out and going down way more than they do IRL. They don't just come out an make themselves big, they throw themselves at the ball every time.
 
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I hope to fuck that Konami remove those ridiculous auto crosses, particularly the triple press low cross. No aiming is required, regardless of how or where the player is facing or positioned, he will whip a fast low cross straight along the face of goal to a CF or to bounce off a CB

Ridiculous !!!

I just spent 2 hours in MLO against super big teams running up to the goal line and constantly doing this

Totally unrealistic, Konami should at least make the player have to be bodily positioned and actually aiming the cross

What a joke
 
I know, it's makes you want to rip your hair out! Because if only they fucking put it on Top player this shit wouldn't happen.

Bullstein mate at peel i would assume you would have realized now that on top player many of the abuse stuff that goes on just does not happen even if you had a super team! When you put top player on, you defense isn't stupid and liable badly to through balls, triple tap crosses etc!

It really is a time for a change Konami with the online gameplay setup!
 
They need to make all crosses more prone to error, it's almost impossible to mishit a cross behind the goal, yet this is a common occurrence in real football.
 
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