PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

kamy100 said:
I am really struggling with the defending, just can't get a hang of it. I have never spammed X but I am constantly finding that when I try to male a ta kle with X, players skip past me. I am finding it nigh on impossible to keep clean sheets. I am using R2 to jockey but it is not really working for me. So what am I doing wrong?
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I had that problem for a while but I have now found this works well. I use a second defender to close down the ball carrier and my main man blocks their best passing option. Often the AI will get frustrated and try a risky pass or lob when you close down their best options. You can still dispossess the ball carrier with your second defender with good timing. In fact the AI seems less able to dodge them than when tackling with X. The main thing is to close down their forward passing options. Once you have men back you can make it very hard for the AI to get through, even with Robinho and Lavezzi.

It's quite possible to dispossess attackers just moving close to them with good defenders. Generally I use X and the sliding tackles as desperate last resorts. I don't use much jockeying either.
 
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Houston, we have a problem...

I already wrote here that PES 2012 went obviously more arcade... and you know how it is in the best arcade games, unrealistic and spectacular, easy to pick up, but hard as hell, after all the coins must flow in...

PES 2012 goes for the spectacular, extreme dribbling-prossibilities, easy control, easy to get in, everything works perfectly, passes, crosses, dribbling, ball-control... but it is hard to beat because of the opponent AI being unrealistically strong.

Yes, I wanted more challenge by the AI, found always the attacking AI of the CPU in PES 2011 way too easy, but I wanted it to stay in the realm of realism within the boundaries of what the real teams and their players would and could do.

Now we got the other extreme where the CPU-attacking-AI is too strong, not because it is too intelligent, but because it uses dribblings and passes too precisely, with players going through your defense as if they were ghosts by simple small dribblings that change angle a little here a little there or players going through a millimeter of space between defenders.

It's over the top, and it's not only in the demo:

According to Adam from kitanamedia it's similar in his review-code where he had Gattuso outdribble three or four defenders... and teams that are in reality weak rip up strong teams as if they were Barca.

Such a challenge is of course fun, maybe even addictive, but it is imho arcade in nature.
 
Bendit said:
I had that problem for a while but I have now found this works well. I use a second defender to close down the ball carrier and my main man blocks their best passing option. Often the AI will get frustrated and try a risky pass or lob when you close down their best options. You can still dispossess the ball carrier with your second defender with good timing. In fact the AI seems less able to dodge them than when tackling with X. The main thing is to close down their forward passing options. Once you have men back you can make it very hard for the AI to get through, even with Robinho and Lavezzi.

It's quite possible to dispossess attackers just moving close to them with good defenders. Generally I use X and the sliding tackles as desperate last resorts. I don't use much jockeying either.
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I hated defending at the start, just couldn't get the hang of it. Am a bit better now, I find the best strategy is to try and move your player without x or L2, while using square to force the opponent towards you via your other defender.

If you can force them out wide, the slide tackle is useful. I can't use it in the middle of the park, always seems to take the player first.

Still, I hope they tone down the ridiculous CPU dribbling skills in the final version. At least once a match some random midfielder decides it's time to pull a Maradonna v England, and it's normally just luck whether they score or not.
 
henrys hand said:
Houston, we have a problem...

I already wrote here that PES 2012 went obviously more arcade... and you know how it is in the best arcade games, unrealistic and spectacular, easy to pick up, but hard as hell, after all the coins must flow in...

PES 2012 goes for the spectacular, extreme dribbling-prossibilities, easy control, easy to get in, everything works perfectly, passes, crosses, dribbling, ball-control... but it is hard to beat because of the opponent AI being unrealistically strong.

Yes, I wanted more challenge by the AI, found always the attacking AI of the CPU in PES 2011 way too easy, but I wanted it to stay in the realm of realism within the boundaries of what the real teams and their players would and could do.

Now we got the other extreme where the CPU-attacking-AI is too strong, not because it is too intelligent, but because it uses dribblings and passes too precisely, with players going through your defense as if they were ghosts by simple small dribblings that change angle a little here a little there or players going through a millimeter of space between defenders.

It's over the top, and it's not only in the demo:

According to Adam from kitanamedia it's similar in his review-code where he had Gattuso outdribble three or four defenders... and teams that are in reality weak rip up strong teams as if they were Barca.

Such a challenge is of course fun, maybe even addictive, but it is imho arcade in nature.
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It aint arcady. If you want pes 11 gameplay go play that. You cant have both. Put the gamespeed on -2
 
PEs 1-4 even 5-6 were pretty arcadey in some respects espeically pes 2-4.

I mean you could score 30-40 yarders every game, half volleys from 35 yds at the angle. R>Carlos run from his own box beat 4 players on the wing and rifle one in from 35 yds at an angle. Make 3 passes defender-midlfieder-forward-shoot-score...

Nooone complained back then.

A 100% realistic football game may be boring? ARcade=fun.....However, its about a balance.

Flight sim= good flying game but not much isntant fun
Battlefield vietnam= Crazy flying, shooting, bombs, arcade pure fun.
 
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romagnoli said:
I'm a Utd fan, I know what curled shots look like ;)

You can get more curl than you give 2012 credit for. Not as much as you want, necessarily, but R2 has more swerve than last year, even if using R2 doesn't mean that every shot curls (as in FIFA).

I seem to remember Jimmy scored a goal like that in 2011?
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Yep, Pellissier I think it was. It was almost identical to that, the body angle was exactly the same as I brought him square with the box. It was a maxed out R2. It's in the video section somewhere.
 
Hmmmm, yeah, some people need to learn what ''arcade'' or ''arcade-y'' really means; maybe even grasp what videogames are meant to deliver ultimately and how license over some reality is necessary.

Not to say PES2012 is perfect but it ain't no arcade game.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
Yep, Pellissier I think it was. It was almost identical to that, the body angle was exactly the same as I brought him square with the box. It was a maxed out R2. It's in the video section somewhere.
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Did you mean the one at the end of this video?

YouTube - Nice Strike Sir

Hard to tell from those angles, but it looked like a chip or a mishit - definitely not a sweet strike with bend from distance like Young's or Beckham's.

No football game has got that type of shot right - FIFA makes it way too easy, the old PES games made it look very unrealistic and the latest editions of PES have made it weak and without swerve. Annoying.
 
The thing that makes me laugh about PES is when people seem shocked at aspects of it being a bit arcadey like it's a new thing. PES has always appeared to try to strike a balance between sim and arcade. It's a game after all and there's no way it's going for full sim. Honestly, surely i'm not the only person who thinks this? It has oftened balanced the two concepts pretty well with the exception of 2008 which was just an awful experience. Debatably PES 6 which i found more arcadey than sim-like but i know most don't. Most of the things i think need improving in the demo are simply because they need to strike the balance better, not because it needs to be full sim like. The biggest problem i see right now is the need for attacking being more difficult than it is. That's a combination of things right there including the need for better keepers, less ability to dribble without mistake from worse dribblers and for pushing the ball not to result in the same weight and distance from the players foot every time, more error in passing and crossing.

I like to work for my goal and in truth that's what the whole notion of feeling satisfied when scoring in PES has always been about.
 
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theCRO said:
Hopefully everyone at Konami saw the drubbing Man U gave Wenger's boys yesterday and especially Young's two goals, every bit as classy as this one IMO.
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the thing is people complain about to many goals being scored and games that are 1-0 are more realsitic?

ermm 8-2 man u 5-1 city etc...etc....

I think games are more fun with goals...rather play a game wher average scores where 4-2 3-1 3-2 etc...rathet than 0-0 1-0
 
Northzzz said:
The thing that makes me laugh about PES is when people seem shocked at aspects of it being a bit arcadey like it's a new thing. PES has always appeared to strike a balance between sim and arcade. It's a game after all. It has oftened balanced the two pretty well with the exception of 2008 + 2009.

Honestly, surely i'm not the only person who thinks this?
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In my other thread I mention I went back and played all PES games from PS2. ANd man those games were arcadey as hell.

I guess they were more sim compared to FIFA a the time? Thats all I can think because these games are pure arcade.
 
ALso you have to consider a game is 10-15mins long...A real game is 90mins long

If you view 10mins of a real game...i.e. highlights then this is what we want in a 10-15min video game...It should be like highlights...10mins off chances/bad fouls/goals/free kicks/wonder saves/corners etc..exciting moments....

Now if it were 90mins then that would be crazy and a full sim would be needed...But by making game 10-15min you cut out all the boring parts..
 
pes4lyfe said:
the thing is people complain about to many goals being scored and games that are 1-0 are more realsitic?

ermm 8-2 man u 5-1 city etc...etc....

I think games are more fun with goals...rather play a game wher average scores where 4-2 3-1 3-2 etc...rathet than 0-0 1-0
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Well i disagree. There shouldn't be an ease of scoring for the sake of it. City scored 5 and United scored 8 because they were exceptional on that day, not because it's the norm. If you're much better than you're opponent then yes it should be this way, just like City and Utd were in those examples. With two equal opponents it shouldn't end up 5-5 just because they're both good at the game. Conceding 5 shouldn't mean you're good. That's pretty much exactly what happened in Fifa 09 and 10 and it irked me so much because it ended up with you trying to outscore your opponent as you knew you were bound to concede regardless of your ability if they actually could play the game to even an average level. That is pure arcade IMO and a bad example of a balance between attack and defence.

I absolutely love winning by the odd goal or two and not conceding but that's a personal preference. As i said in my other post i like attacking being harder than defending and having to work for my goals because i am good at it and have learned how to effectively do so, not because it's easy to score. PES 5 is easily the best example of this.
 
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henrys hand said:
Houston, we have a problem...

I already wrote here that PES 2012 went obviously more arcade... and you know how it is in the best arcade games, unrealistic and spectacular, easy to pick up, but hard as hell, after all the coins must flow in...

PES 2012 goes for the spectacular, extreme dribbling-prossibilities, easy control, easy to get in, everything works perfectly, passes, crosses, dribbling, ball-control... but it is hard to beat because of the opponent AI being unrealistically strong.

Yes, I wanted more challenge by the AI, found always the attacking AI of the CPU in PES 2011 way too easy, but I wanted it to stay in the realm of realism within the boundaries of what the real teams and their players would and could do.

Now we got the other extreme where the CPU-attacking-AI is too strong, not because it is too intelligent, but because it uses dribblings and passes too precisely, with players going through your defense as if they were ghosts by simple small dribblings that change angle a little here a little there or players going through a millimeter of space between defenders.

It's over the top, and it's not only in the demo:

According to Adam from kitanamedia it's similar in his review-code where he had Gattuso outdribble three or four defenders... and teams that are in reality weak rip up strong teams as if they were Barca.

Such a challenge is of course fun, maybe even addictive, but it is imho arcade in nature.
Click to expand...

What people have to understand here, is that if they make it in the realm of realism, once you have mastered the game, you will always win by toons of goals. Because human player tend to exploit thing that are exploitable, and theres always something that we find out, to surpasse the other team and get to the goal.

People could demand as you said, the realm of realism, if they play in the realm of realism too, and if that happens you will most of the times with the likes of smaller teams, bombing balls forward in order that some would pass and you could score, or wait for a set piece to reach the goal, and you know that no one does that, everyone tries to play there own way, or at least in the way they see football, and how they want there team to play.

So i think that the game is well ballanced the way it is and with the right difficulty, and once we get to grips with the defense system there will be no more results of 5-2 or 8-1 pr 4-0 at least in a regular basis.

In PES 2011 at the beggining i suffered many goals do to my CB stopping or going forward and dont intercept the ball. But once i mastered the defense system of the game, i only give away 1 or 2 goals max, of course that are exceptions, and once in a while with someone really better, i end up with 3 or 4, but rarely.
 
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pes2011 is arcade in an analogy that like it is playing in a 'box'there is freedom,yes,but in a confined way.
pes2012 is feels like playing outside the 'box',yes there is freedom but feels arcade in a sense that it is more scripted,in passing,dribbling.
you kind of have to think of it in an abstract way,like some painting
 
pes4lyfe said:
In my other thread I mention I went back and played all PES games from PS2. ANd man those games were arcadey as hell.

I guess they were more sim compared to FIFA a the time? Thats all I can think because these games are pure arcade.
Click to expand...

I'd say those games captured football as best possible given the tools at the developers disposal.

A match in a football videogame lasts 15mins(avg.) real time but looks to capture 90. That requires balance and yes, even some videogame license in order to make that so.

*****************************************************************

I've always thought that classic PES looked to capture the essence of actually playing the sport whilst using videogame license in order to make it so. I mean, what makes a great player in real life? You could argue that it is in some cases what makes a great videogame player. Obviously not the physical demands but reflex, instinct, composure and all round natural ability are necessary in both in order to stand out. Do you think Xavi thinks methodically or do you think he has a more ''arcade-y'' approach such is his command of the sport? Do you believe he thinks out procedurally how is going to find that pass or that his quick minded-ness, composure and natural ability make him stand out over other players?

To be honest, this is why I never really ''got'' FIFA bar 08, UEFA and FIFA09 - I just feel they look to over-sim the mechanics of football player with ball at feet. FIFA has multiple dribble speeds and styles all mapped to different button combos. Where PES encourages natural flair and ability, FIFA over-prescribes to the notion that football is incredibly complex for an individual and that flair has to be ''engineered'' as opposed to it being something that manifests through natural ability, agility and instinct. Football at a base level is an incredibly simple sport, especially when considering individual ability. I never ''thought out'' my skill on the ball before execution when playing, it just happened due to ''arcade-like'' instincts to situations and spacial awareness working in tandem with my natural ability and agility. The real complexity of football lies in teamwork, tactics and formations.

I think PES looks to understand that and PES2012 is a huge step forward for the franchise.
 
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Northzzz said:
Well i disagree. There shouldn't be an ease of scoring for the sake of it. City scored 5 and United scored 8 because they were exceptional on that day, not because it's the norm. If you're much better than you're opponent then yes it should be this way, just like City and Utd were in those examples. With two equal opponents it shouldn't end up 5-5 just because they're both good at the game. Conceding 5 shouldn't mean you're good. That's pretty much exactly what happened in Fifa 09 and 10 and it irked me so much because it ended up with you trying to outscore your opponent as you knew you were bound to concede regardless of your ability if they actually could play the game to even an average level. That is pure arcade IMO and a bad example of a balance between attack and defence.

I absolutely love winning by the odd goal or two and not conceding but that's a personal preference. As i said in my other post i like attacking being harder than defending and having to work for my goals because i am good at it and have learned how to effectively do so, not because it's easy to score. PES 5 is easily the best example of this.
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In some respects I know what you mean and it felt good when in old PEs games you had to work ahrd for the goals and sometimes felt happy with a tight 1-0 2-1 vicotry or last minute winner etc..

But Id say if you look about all leagues of the world and scores at the weekends the average game has 4+ goals.
 
Pfffff.. BaL is total mess in Preview biuld... really hope that is because early Build, otherwise would be a disaster...
 
AntrAcsA said:
Pfffff.. BaL is total mess in Preview biuld... really hope that is because early Build, otherwise would be a disaster...
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BAL isn't available in preview build. The console version of preview build anyway. Football Life was greyed out/inaccessible completely in console preview.
 
It's not so much the number of goals that are scored but howthe goals are scored that determine the type and quality of the game. My first game of the PES demo is a perfect example:

Within 5 minutes (in game time) I scored my first goal - a 35-yarder, a beautiful shot. It was my first shot of the game, my first shot of the demo. It came from a mindless tap of the shot button, no thought or effort required. Who scored this beauty? Vidic. This, to me, felt more arcade than realistic. Both the effort required of me and the outcome seemed unrealistic compared to the real game.

My second goal scored came not long after and resulted from poor goalkeeping more than anything else. It was a failure in animation and coding, totally unrealistic for top-level football, and left me with an empty, unsatisfied feeling inside. This, to me, is poor quality programming.

Despite not having played any PES since before Christmas, I won my first game of the demo 4-1. All of my goals scored were the result of poor programming or all-too-easy, and I would say arcade-like, play. I felt no level of satisfaction after scoring any of those four goals, no pride in accomplishment.

As I said, it's not so much the score-line of games that matter as much as the context and way in which goals occur that matter. For me, there are simply too many errors in programming and failures in realism to take PES seriously; I tend to laugh more than anything else when playing the PES demo.

I'm hoping the final code has far fewer glaring errors, but a bigger issue for me is that PES simply makes some things far too easy to accomplish, which I think is why so many are calling it arcade. That my first goal came from my very first shot, taken at long distance by my central defender and which required little effort or skill on my part, has been emblematic of my PES demo experience.
 
curdstar said:
BAL isn't available in preview build. The console version of preview build anyway. Football Life was greyed out/inaccessible completely in console preview.
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Is it ! I have PC preview biuld ! The BaL is here, but is breaking up somewhat. Maybe is from .. player position , maybe is from some stuff from editing if player , i dont know but some time the game is crash in beggin of the mode and some time A.I. team mates are just.. bad, i meen BAD. They just stay and dont make any logical movement. They just troll the match :D something like that
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq7japcQ2D1ql095co1_500.gif
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq9awxWVCg1qfhcu4.gif
but once i start the bal and.. all was OK. My team was great, we make some good games.But for me bad, i dont save this game and.. when i try to start again new BaL game.. its does not happen again. Again crash or idiotic team mates...
 
curdstar said:
I'd say those games captured football as best possible given the tools at the developers disposal.

A match in a football videogame lasts 15mins(avg.) real time but looks to capture 90. That requires balance and yes, even some videogame license in order to make that so.

*****************************************************************

I've always thought that classic PES looked to capture the essence of actually playing the sport whilst using videogame license in order to make it so. I mean, what makes a great player in real life? You could argue that it is in some cases what makes a great videogame player. Obviously not the physical demands but reflex, instinct, composure and all round natural ability are necessary in both in order to stand out. Do you think Xavi thinks methodically or do you think he has a more ''arcade-y'' approach such is his command of the sport? Do you believe he thinks out procedurally how is going to find that pass or that his quick minded-ness, composure and natural ability make him stand out over other players?

To be honest, this is why I never really ''got'' FIFA bar 08, UEFA and FIFA09 - I just feel they look to over-sim the mechanics of football player with ball at feet. FIFA has multiple dribble speeds and styles all mapped to different button combos. Where PES encourages natural flair and ability, FIFA over-prescribes to the notion that football is incredibly complex for an individual and that flair has to be ''engineered'' as opposed to it being something that manifests through natural ability, agility and instinct. Football at a base level is an incredibly simple sport, especially when considering individual ability. I never ''thought out'' my skill on the ball before execution when playing, it just happened due to ''arcade-like'' instincts to situations and spacial awareness working in tandem with my natural ability and agility. The real complexity of football lies in teamwork, tactics and formations.

I think PES looks to understand that and PES2012 is a huge step forward for the franchise.
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Thats true and also I remember in old PEs if I got a player sent off or 2 it really made a huge difference on the picth, If I got a CB sent off and dint replace him by moving an CF to CB then Id get murdered. However with 1 Cf it was hard to score.

ALso individuality of player should be basic difference eg old pEs.

Every player should have standard abilites then extras

eg..

Jan Koller...would win many corners, long balls, crosses but he was slow and poor dribbling

Giggs...Could dribble at high pace, very agile, beat defenders easily

Beckham...crosses and long balls are pinpoint accurate

Roberto Carlos....Shootign form long range has high power and accuracy

Jaap Staam..Wing most Ariel challenges, hard to get past with strength/physical challenge only speed/dribbling.

Ronaldo (fat)...amazing speed and accelration can phsycialy push past defenders, great finishing.

Van Nistelrrooy,,,Accurate and powerful shooting and heading

Zidane...100% accurate passes all distance, accurate long shots.

etc..

I mean in old PES it was like if you press Shoot too long and the wrogn direction with a player like Recoba from distance you could still score or get it on target at least...Whereas with a player like G.Neville if you pressed correct amount of power on Square and correct direction on d-pad the shot will most likely not score.

Basiclaly the better the player at shooting the more margin for error on the control pad you had...and vise versa

This is great indiviulaity..and realistic...This needs reimplemented 100% same as it was.


Then Team overall...For exmaple it made a huge differnce with formations. I would someitmes be losing a game but swicth 3-5-2 to 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 adn the game would completely change.

Or soemtimes Id get a fast winger and play him on the tocuhline up fornt out wide and fire long balls to him as he would be unmarked or find easy space.....sacrifising a steady formation but enabling a individual to get space etc......

I dont think the new games replicate this well but I have not tried much Pes since PEs4/5 tbh.
 
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Finally tried the demo and still unimpressed. Cameras in the demo are just awful playing on a 46" bravia. Visuals of the game aren't great at all. Manual passing and shooting still requires an extra button to be pressed. Animations are better than 2011 but are still somewhat clunky. The ball is too floaty.

It's definitely lacking for me
 
Scored a rocket with Ibra.

YouTube - PES 2012 Ibra!!!

The game has grown on me. As for those having hard time defending, you are not the only one. I love it though. I have to defend like I would if I was playing in real life. You have to sit back a little and time your tackle or let the cpu have a shot that goes wide more times than not. Also, I use extra defenders when someone like Rooney or Cavani have the ball near the goal.
 
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