PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

wabak said:
I got a MadCatz 360 controller from ASDA for £10, couldn't wait any longer on the 360 one lol, so just playing on PC.

I looked at that wireless thing for the PC you were on about btw, £8 on eBay... not bad. Just decided on getting the wired controller for £2 more as cba waiting a few days. (I'm ezioisawesome on twitter)
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Mm. I'm just about to pick up a wired 360 controller I think. Could do with another controller for playing PES with with flatmates come October and this would allow me to play the demo.
 
zeemeister said:
WOW nice write up there Jimmy G.
I love how bothered the pressure whores are by this game and the CPU running through them

Please dont change it konami pleeeeeeaaaaaaaaaasssseeeeeeee
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Don't tar everyone with the same brush. i.e. "if you don't like it then you are a 'pressure whore'".

I have spent hours and hours refining my defending techniques and tactics in PES 2010 and 2011, defending as a team, covering spaces, sometimes using pressure as in real life but not relying on it and being a 'pressure whore'.

As mentioned above, its more to do with the fact that too many players are given too much control over dribbling, even if in real life they may be average at dribbling; the game engine by default seems to have artificially increased dribble speed and accuracy for the majority of players, just like PES 6 did. Nothing to do with pressure even. Before you even get to pressing R1 or making a choice how to defend or contain, dribbling seems too easy for too many players.

Seabass wants to replicate an exciting 10 minutes of a match, rather than a 'boring' 90 minutes. To some degree that's fine, but a little bit of balance is what I'm asking from Konami, because the game will be awesome if they just pull it back, a little bit. We've heard even those who like the demo overall saying regular speed (online match speed) is too fast, again, nothing to do with pressure, but the direction the game is taking :/

I await the second demo with eager interest :)
 
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I really hope Konami get rid of the current replay system, that shows the players with a weird LOD and animations that look very, very bad because of how sped up the players are and how weird the LOD looks from the camera angle.
 
shorty alien said:
Don't tar everyone with the same brush. i.e. "if you don't like it then you are a 'pressure whore'".

I have spent hours and hours refining my defending techniques and tactics in PES 2010 and 2011, defending as a team, covering spaces, sometimes using pressure as in real life but not relying on it and being a 'pressure whore'.

As mentioned above, its more to do with the fact that too many players are given too much control over dribbling, even if in real life they may be average at dribbling; the game engine by default seems to have artificially increased dribble speed and accuracy for the majority of players, just like PES 6 did. Nothing to do with pressure even. Before you even get to pressing R1 or making a choice how to defend or contain, dribbling seems too easy for too many players.

Seabass wants to replicate an exciting 10 minutes of a match, rather than a 'boring' 90 minutes. To some degree that's fine, but a little bit of balance is what I'm asking from Konami, because the game will be awesome if they just pull it back, a little bit. We've heard even those who like the demo overall saying regular speed (online match speed) is too fast, again, nothing to do with pressure, but the direction the game is taking :/

I await the second demo with eager interest :)
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I agree with this. My problem with defending isn't that I'm holding down X and Square and not understanding why I'm not getting the ball back. I'm not an idiot, thanks.

I'm positioning two midfielders and a CB between the AI midfielder and goal, and at least once or twice a match they'll take on all three, and likely score with any shot as the keepers are broke. I can ignore the last part, but there's some truly odd about seeing Darren Fletcher dancing around tackles.

I think people are right, it is because the dribbling is too good, and obviously the AI knows exactly what feint to do when you're defending. I'm actually fine with Robinho, or Messi, or Neymar taking defenders on a merry dance, that's how it should be. You should be terrified of them picking up the ball. But you should be relieved when, say, Nani dumps it back to Fletcher, rather than terrified that after using 3 defenders to stop the winger, you've only got 2 to stop the marauding trickster that is the scottish midfielder.
 
beachryan said:
I agree with this. My problem with defending isn't that I'm holding down X and Square and not understanding why I'm not getting the ball back. I'm not an idiot, thanks.

I'm positioning two midfielders and a CB between the AI midfielder and goal, and at least once or twice a match they'll take on all three, and likely score with any shot as the keepers are broke. I can ignore the last part, but there's some truly odd about seeing Darren Fletcher dancing around tackles.

I think people are right, it is because the dribbling is too good, and obviously the AI knows exactly what feint to do when you're defending. I'm actually fine with Robinho, or Messi, or Neymar taking defenders on a merry dance, that's how it should be. You should be terrified of them picking up the ball. But you should be relieved when, say, Nani dumps it back to Fletcher, rather than terrified that after using 3 defenders to stop the winger, you've only got 2 to stop the marauding trickster that is the scottish midfielder.
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Darren Fletcher is capable of dribbling, maybe not to the extreme in the demo..
its when that useless prick Michael fucking Carrick gets the ball and takes well even one player that i get annoyed!
 
beachryan said:
I agree with this. My problem with defending isn't that I'm holding down X and Square and not understanding why I'm not getting the ball back. I'm not an idiot, thanks.

I'm positioning two midfielders and a CB between the AI midfielder and goal, and at least once or twice a match they'll take on all three, and likely score with any shot as the keepers are broke. I can ignore the last part, but there's some truly odd about seeing Darren Fletcher dancing around tackles.

I think people are right, it is because the dribbling is too good, and obviously the AI knows exactly what feint to do when you're defending. I'm actually fine with Robinho, or Messi, or Neymar taking defenders on a merry dance, that's how it should be. You should be terrified of them picking up the ball. But you should be relieved when, say, Nani dumps it back to Fletcher, rather than terrified that after using 3 defenders to stop the winger, you've only got 2 to stop the marauding trickster that is the scottish midfielder.
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+1 to that, similar to what I said about Flamini earlier. Was nothing to do with me lunging in or pressuring him, his dribble accuracy seemed to be artificially overrated and too good, compared to what I've seen of him in real life.

Technically limited players don't have to be tanks, but they shouldn't go to the extreme of being too good either.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
Nothing in football is as exciting as seeing a player run and take on another. It's mesmirising, it's what gets fans out there seats. From a player perspective, there is nothing more thrilling. It's man on man, or with Lionel, man on 4 men. With 22 players on the pitch, you play man for man, to take out an opposing player with a drop of the shoulder, takes him out of the game and opens up so many options.
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This is all true in reference to 1v1 defending, but my problem with defending in the 2012 demo is that it's not the 1960s any more. Modern football is dominated by zonal systems, by retention of shape and organised, distinct lines, and compressing (or conversely finding) space between said lines.

At times, the PES 2012 demo gives the impression of FIFA10/WC (this is not a good thing) in terms of defensive structure. A lone defender five yards deeper than his colleagues, or over-eager man-marking leading to a shapeless mess, or two defenders occupying the same square yard of pitch.

There's been a lot of discussion about defending only in the 1v1 sense (and with that side of things I have no complaints), but it's a narrow view of the broader concept of defending... which is far less a mano-a-mano thing and in reality an issue of team-wide organisation. Thus far I'm left unconvinced that Konami have 'got' this on the evidence of the demo.
 
nerf said:
This is all true in reference to 1v1 defending, but my problem with defending in the 2012 demo is that it's not the 1960s any more. Modern football is dominated by zonal systems, by retention of shape and organised, distinct lines, and compressing (or conversely finding) space between said lines.

At times, the PES 2012 demo gives the impression of FIFA10/WC (this is not a good thing) in terms of defensive structure. A lone defender five yards deeper than his colleagues, or over-eager man-marking leading to a shapeless mess, or two defenders occupying the same square yard of pitch.

There's been a lot of discussion about defending only in the 1v1 sense (and with that side of things I have no complaints), but it's a narrow view of the broader concept of defending... which is far less a mano-a-mano thing and in reality an issue of team-wide organisation. Thus far I'm left unconvinced that Konami have 'got' this on the evidence of the demo.
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Oh yes

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/vidicibra.png/

I actually conceded from this, hence why i took a screenshot during the replay. No need to be that far back playing him onside. No need to be that far away from him if he's going to be that far back and playing him onside. If he's going to be there then he needs to man-mark him or atleast look to block the pass that did eventually come in. This hasn't been an isolated incident. I remember watching gameplay videos of PES 2012 and seeing defenders tracking forwards making runs and sticking close to them. Apart from set pieces i haven't seen much tight marking at all.
 
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nerf said:
This is all true in reference to 1v1 defending, but my problem with defending in the 2012 demo is that it's not the 1960s any more. Modern football is dominated by zonal systems, by retention of shape and organised, distinct lines, and compressing (or conversely finding) space between said lines.

At times, the PES 2012 demo gives the impression of FIFA10/WC (this is not a good thing) in terms of defensive structure. A lone defender five yards deeper than his colleagues, or over-eager man-marking leading to a shapeless mess, or two defenders occupying the same square yard of pitch.

There's been a lot of discussion about defending only in the 1v1 sense (and with that side of things I have no complaints), but it's a narrow view of the broader concept of defending... which is far less a mano-a-mano thing and in reality an issue of team-wide organisation. Thus far I'm left unconvinced that Konami have 'got' this on the evidence of the demo.
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+1 Teams are not organized enough to counter the high skill of AI players. If a high skilled player is offered space then it ends up like all the problems we are having with the game. There is no one game in which the AI doesn't score!
 
had a couple of good sessions on this now and its great, defo a step up from last year.

I like how you can now do snapshots after a lay off, impossible last year.
the close control is fantastic. and all this 'it reminds me of FIFA' is total bollocks. in fifa if you are touched you lose the ball. Seedorf in this demo can keep the ball away from defenders feet when they are on top of him, fantastic stuff.

also love how you can now ride a tackle makes for exciting dribbling.
also love how FINALLY the game once again becomes alive in and around the box. not since the PS2 days has a PES game done this. the goalmouth scrambles, the deflections and lucky bounces.. it seems so real at times, and if you can keep a cool head whilst all this mayhem is going on and do a crafty shot fake or a slide rule pass it feels so rewarding ( esp against a human player who is button bashing- trying to clear the ball)

its a class game.

things that need work? the passing really is too guided, last year you could weight a pass onto a players 'good' foot.. this aint possible in the demo.

Keepers. even a great goal that a keeper could not save can sometimes look shite because of the keepers dive. one handed dives are required.

also that man who runs behind the goal, a bit too camp for my liking...
 
Northzzz said:
Oh yes

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/vidicibra.png/

I actually conceded from this, hence why i took a screenshot during the replay. No need to be that far back playing him onside. No need to be that far away from him if he's going to be that far back and playing him onside. If he's going to be there then he needs to man-mark him or atleast look to block the pass that did eventually come in. This hasn't been an isolated incident. I remember watching gameplay videos of PES 2012 and seeing defenders tracking forwards making runs and sticking close to them. Apart from set pieces i haven't seen much tight marking at all.
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Defending is a bloody mess.
 
pes on facebook looking for demo feedback,the usual muppets are on there giving their opinion saying the game is now too hard,id have thought that the game has gone gold now so any suggestions would be kept for pes 2013
 
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nerf said:
This is all true in reference to 1v1 defending, but my problem with defending in the 2012 demo is that it's not the 1960s any more. Modern football is dominated by zonal systems, by retention of shape and organised, distinct lines, and compressing (or conversely finding) space between said lines.

At times, the PES 2012 demo gives the impression of FIFA10/WC (this is not a good thing) in terms of defensive structure. A lone defender five yards deeper than his colleagues, or over-eager man-marking leading to a shapeless mess, or two defenders occupying the same square yard of pitch.

There's been a lot of discussion about defending only in the 1v1 sense (and with that side of things I have no complaints), but it's a narrow view of the broader concept of defending... which is far less a mano-a-mano thing and in reality an issue of team-wide organisation. Thus far I'm left unconvinced that Konami have 'got' this on the evidence of the demo.
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Disagree so strongly with this. The defending is very much about working as a unit. That's exactly what this game does very well, albeit not as overtly as it could - the secondary presser tends to act as if alone so you tend to have to be the 'second man', though you could argue that's what you should be doing when using that function anyway. If you defend one-on-one against most players then you will get completely done - the counterargument at the moment being that certain players need doubling up more often than they should. As soon as you defend as part of the unit rather than doing your own thing, the Robinho and Zlatan goals dry up and a lot of their runs see them get past the first man and straight into the second. When you get that right it's an absolute joy.

The defence in 2012 very clearly has a team mentality, the sense of being a unit. There is perhaps a bit more haphazardness than is necessary due to overeager covering or marking, but no way in hell is the end result anywhere near as isolated, damaging or counterintuitive as FIFA's defending.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
to take out an opposing player with a drop of the shoulder, takes him out of the game and opens up so many options. [/url]
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This is something I really appreciate about the game and was prety much missing from 2011. There have been many times in midfield with Aguilar when I have been able to do a neat little turn or feint and lose atleast one player, after I have lots of time and space to decide on my next move. Pressure whores will be punished!
 
AntrAcsA said:
YouTube - PES 2012 - Dribbling Bug Animation
It's look bad . Hurt my eyes every time when i play the game ..
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To be honest from wide cam view it kind of makes it look like he's taking a touch with both of his feet at the same time. I can't tell which foot he is actually using. Then there's the fact that the ball stays so close to his feet (being a defender) and how it always looks like the ball keeps going behind him, like he's outrunning the ball. Why the ball travels directly in a straight line and at the same speed with every touch etc etc.

Personally despite all the aforementioned points i don't find it that big a problem overall. It doesn't really detract from the gameplaying experience when you're actually playing in wide cam unless you isolate it and focus directly on how the animation looks as you have done.
 
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On Adams latest post involving ML the only thing I want
to hear is that we can change clubs. Not fussed about
cut scenes or any other unecessary features that are
just a waste of time.

Oh one more thing I like about the demo real time change kickers
during dead ball situations. Nice touch that.
 
Sabac Red said:
On Adams latest post involving ML the only thing I want
to hear is that we can change clubs. Not fussed about
cut scenes or any other unecessary features that are
just a waste of time.

Oh one more thing I like about the demo real time change kickers
during dead ball situations. Nice touch that.
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i wouldnt say its in,he and konami would have mentioned it by now
 
romagnoli said:
Disagree so strongly with this. The defending is very much about working as a unit. That's exactly what this game does very well, albeit not as overtly as it could - the secondary presser tends to act as if alone so you tend to have to be the 'second man', though you could argue that's what you should be doing when using that function anyway. If you defend one-on-one against most players then you will get completely done - the counterargument at the moment being that certain players need doubling up more often than they should. As soon as you defend as part of the unit rather than doing your own thing, the Robinho and Zlatan goals dry up and a lot of their runs see them get past the first man and straight into the second. When you get that right it's an absolute joy.

The defence in 2012 very clearly has a team mentality, the sense of being a unit. There is perhaps a bit more haphazardness than is necessary due to overeager covering or marking, but no way in hell is the end result anywhere near as isolated, damaging or counterintuitive as FIFA's defending.
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Sorry, I think you missed the point. You said you disagree but then talked about something different. What you've described is individuals covering for each other. I can see individuals tracking runs, and covering gaps their teammates have left, and 'backing up' a teammate... in that sense they do work together.

What they don't do is retain a recognisable and beneficial shape. Professional sides these days are extremely well drilled in defensive shape, to the extent that obvious lines become apparent.



Konami seem to have focussed on more 'intelligent' marking and 1v1 defending, and unfortunately we've ended up with this:



It's nice that they've tried to make their defenders aware enough to cover for each other and pick up unmarked opponents, but when all shape collapses then... this is not defending. Do you see what I mean?
 
shorty alien said:
Don't tar everyone with the same brush. i.e. "if you don't like it then you are a 'pressure whore'".
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Erm no! I do not.

I just dont want this system to change sorry if ou felt I was labelling you.

I was exilarated byy a 1-0 win and a few others with Porto and Napoli just by getting the defending right.

I tried to record one tackle where Robinho wanted to take on my defence but I held back noticing a team mate also close an angle to Ibrahimovic then from his blindside slid in and kicked the ball away from him. Of course he fell and through his hands up as my DMF mopped up the loose ball. This is football damnit.
 
Would you defense lovers show us a tutorial on how they do it? And how many games do you guys win on top player on average? I am like 1 in 10!
 
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its only a new paper article, which means its not reliable but if it was true then we would be fucked.
 
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