PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

There's still a problem with the way teams organize their defensive lines. In every single video I've seen you can almost feel the desperation from the defending team. In fact, most of the time the defending team is defending backwards, towards their own goal, chasing the attackers.

It's not that defensive transitions are slow. In fact, I think they aren't.
This is cause by other problems, for instance:

+ defensive tactics don't cover the full width of the pitch. Attackers do. So defenders have to catch up in backwards diagonals, which is simply the incorrect way to do it IRL.
+ defensive awareness is close to non existent, because players seek to assume their defensive positions first. Defensive positions are something that's INERT, drawings on a chalkboard.
+ Actual defending seems to start only when the attacking team's pace is interrupted because of a rebound or something.
+ Teams tactics are still TOO LONG, leading to free transit (chasing from behind at best) in midfield. Watch a team's defensive lines on the radar when they are on the ball past midfield: they leave a 4 meters gap between their position and the passive opponent's striker. Once the other team gets possesion and searches for their striker, (A)defenders assume position first, (B) the defensive midfielder must chase the striker from behind whitin a now 6-7 meters clear gap, and (C) don't forget the striker's buddies.

Konami gives the attacking teams positional advantage, which coupled with high precision of passes, is not the smartest way to create freedom of choices. This creates an extremely fast paced game, which has nothing to do with the youtube effect. It's not even entirely a problem of passing precision and speed (which plays a big part, specially precision). The problem is that every pass has a "let's progess on the field" intention which has a negative impact on the build up, coupled with the problems described above.
 
Ok, I’ve lurked around here for a long, long time. Finally a guy snaps and gets social.

With regards to this discrepancy in the Gamescom code, I’ve spent a bit of time lying in bed thinking about it and how it compares to everything we’ve seen and read about PES 2012 in the past few months. In short:

1) Konami have created and implemented an artificial intelligence of which has never been seen before in a football game: a footballing lifeforce on the pitch;
2) In doing so, Konami have acknowledged publicly – and explicitly – LACK OF TEAMMATE SUPPORT as the key failing in PES 2011, intelligent, contextual and otherwise;
3) Major game expo comes around, and all of a sudden the beautiful game we’ve seen has been tarnished with the ‘run bug’, negating a great deal of the intelligence we’ve seen and read about prior.

Why?

My thesis (ok, 'desperate hope') is that Konami have intentionally thrown in this automated pass-and-run at Gamescom so that the lowest common denominator can play or watch and say “oh hey, look at all the support I’m/they’re getting! This is such a wonderful and huge improvement over the unsupportive AI last year! I love you Konami!” … etc etc.

Whilst I may be wrong, (and if I am, I won't leave without the obligatory petty internet fight) I have a feeling a bunch of less football-wise gamers would not have felt that same impact from the more organic, nuanced and natural AI Konami have set for PES 2012. Case in point are the playtest reports from the guys here – all of which are pretty much prefaced with the statement "PES 2012 is an evolution of PES 2011." Natural isn't always noticeable, especially for non-PES players. Perhaps at Gamescom Konami wanted the gamers to really feel and see their teammates working and providing options.

So could the run bug just be a sly marketing ploy? If it is, I'm pretty sure it’s working. It only takes a quick scan through the comments on WENB and Youtube videos to see people blindly declare their love for it. The only ones complaining are those that have enough of a brain to know how stupid and unintelligent it looks and plays. Everyone’s stressing out but come on guys, Konami are sitting on something massive here this year. No chance they stuff it all up by sticking in an auto-run feature that strips a good chunk of intelligence they've gone to great lengths to publicise from the system.

…Right? :ROLL:
 
Well, my work for pes-bg was to test BaL , i'm big fan of BaL mode, but it's impossible now, BaL mode in Preview code is broken :x to bad !
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
Nice video that, very smooth, but again, inertia isnt compromised. :)

I love the A.I movement at 6.16, so relevant to what's happening. Keep an eye on Madrid's right-back. He pushes on, then retreats when it looks like there maybe be an interception, but then reacts and pushes on again. You need to watch the radar to see it. Class that. :)
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I agree, that was a good video i was impressed to actually see them using circular shielding movements. The gameplay rewards patience.but more importantly it looks good fun in a video like that.

Right just my final say on this running bug (oh no not again) in that video i think at around 6.02 when the left handed CB recieves the ball from the goalkick, just keep your eye on him and he will run to just pass the halfway line.I could understand if he was drawing an opponent out with him but no one is there. It certainly needs addressing, and most probably will. Thats it i have said my bit. never to utter the words running bug ever again.
 
lol, sorry for the off-topic then

Nah, seriously, I think it's time to compare the game behaviour with what happens in real matches. Features like Active AI are great, but for the sound of it, it looks more like a "game behaviour" rather than actual and real tactical movements like triangulations or build up (althoug for the video explanations it pretends to become that). The thing is that AI using the gaps to generate passing oportunities is not really what we need, beucase the game's defensive scenario simply doesn't demand it. Surely, it will look amazing and lead to convincent attacking moves. But there were other greater problems to focus before that.
 
Out of interest, is it possible to 'expand' the 360 demo match length?

Could just get in on my iffy Laptop, but I hate fiddling round with graphical settings on that. Gives me bad memories of overclocking/drivers/low resolutions that drove me insane trying to get PES3 working on my PC.
 
AntrAcsA said:
Hi guys :) TOday i finaly take the preview code of PES 2012
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2924/img00001p.jpg
After 10 games i can say ... I h8 PES 2011 , for me PES 2011 is one of the worst game of the series ! Lami say , PES 2012 is just PES 2011 but fixed , for me , PES 2012 is total new game , omg is good game :) Respons time.. dribling.. control of defensev or ataking player is just.. great, like old games .
But problem in this code are.. Refers and Goal Keepres , they are just.. bad !! Shot are not that bad but they are anoyng !
In FL mode is only Master LEague and Become a Legend, maybe the code is not so new , that why i cant see names like Become a Player, Becoma a Manager and Become a Club boss :)
This bug, runing after low pass is not there :WORSHIP: it was fist thing where i try !! But this bug whit the running of player whit the ball
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq16/AntrAcsA/1-2.gif
is here :x that is when u just press run and the ball is close to the body .... look bad . But the game is .. GOOOOOD :D I like it , and that is big deal :) U will love PES 2012 i'm sure! Ok , that is for now i go to play. Maybe my first impression will be change :D will see ! Sry for bad english .
Oh , yes i fogot...
FAKE SHOOOOOOOOOOOT ISSSSSS HEEEEEEEEEREEEEEEE :BOP:
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Hi Antracsa, I really hope you are right.
Maybe you can do a test with the preview-code, something I was thinking about for some time:
My theory is that the Gamescom-demo is set to high attacking and strategy "Centreback Overlap" Maybe also all out attack in Edit management.

When you put all these things 'on' , than do you have the same effect as that so called 'running bug'?
BTW the picture of you DVD looks a bit strange. Blur for a part sharp in the logo. Is that picture a joke? :)
 
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Jimmy G-Force said:
Nice video that, very smooth, but again, inertia isnt compromised. :)

I love the A.I movement at 6.16, so relevant to what's happening. Keep an eye on Madrid's right-back. He pushes on, then retreats when it looks like there maybe be an interception, but then reacts and pushes on again. You need to watch the radar to see it. Class that. :)
Click to expand...

Yep, definitely going to be my camera choice is that. :WORSHIP:
 
Han said:
Hi Antracsa, I really hope you are right.
Maybe you can do a test with the preview-code, something I was thinking about for some time:
My theory is that the Gamescom-demo is set to high attacking and strategy "Centreback Overlap" Maybe also all out attack in Edit management.

When you put all these things 'on' , than do you have the same effect as that so called 'running bug'?
BTW the picture of you DVD looks a bit strange. Blur for a part sharp in the logo. Is that picture a joke? :)
Click to expand...

:) Yes i know the pic is bad quality that why i made it in office, when i take the game, this pic is from my phone.
So. here are two pics from Digital Camera :


I Will never joke with something like this, m8 ;)
 
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Han said:
Hi Antracsa, I really hope you are right.
Maybe you can do a test with the preview-code, something I was thinking about for some time:
My theory is that the Gamescom-demo is set to high attacking and strategy "Centreback Overlap" Maybe also all out attack in Edit management.

When you put all these things 'on' , than do you have the same effect as that so called 'running bug'?
BTW the picture of you DVD looks a bit strange. Blur for a part sharp in the logo. Is that picture a joke? :)
Click to expand...
Hey, I played it at gamescom, but did unfortunately not test the team tactics to see wether it was like that, also this would seem like a bit strange move by konami tbh, but hope dies last...
 
OnLyPrO said:
Can you say what teams are included in preview code?? :APPLAUD:
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Soon we will open Q/A section in PES-BG and maybe here :)

BTW. Maybe...I .. don't ... like .....very much the new cameras ! " Wide " is to far , " LONG" is to zoom... that "PITCHSIDE" in fist time, look good, but when u start to play ... u feel not very comfortably.
Konami need to put manual Zooming and angel of Cameras.
 
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haven't posted here in a while due to frustration with the pes franchise, having seen what's up and coming with pes 2012 i am well impressed and delighted. i can't wait for the demo, really looking forward to it as i have a feeling this could be the best since 4/5/6.
 
The thing is, if it only affected the midfielders and attackers it would actually be welcome (up to a point).

If it affects the defenders, it'll be a major problem for PES2012. I can't see how it wouldn't be! I saw one vid today where Puyol started from defence, played two passes, and ended up in the CF slot. The same thing happened to a Juve CB in another vid. He played one pass and went tearing up past the halfway line.

Roll on the demo so we can either put this bug out of our minds, or hit the nuclear button :(
 
NGB have just posted part two of their interview with Jon Murphy and Seabass and they talk about licenses, most notably the J-League license that Konami own:

YouTube - Gamescom 2011: PES 2012 interview part 2

The reason given at the end was frankly BS. I am pretty sure many would love to see another licensed league, especially Asia's largest, in the game, and really, how could it hurt to include it, when you already have the exclusive license?

For example, do you see EA blocking their license of the K-League to simply Korea or certain regions, when they have clearly less to lose than Konami (I mean, can't Konami's execs see which game has less licenses)? It would add value and replayability to the game, and attract more people to it, so why not use this rather than stifle it? Plus, it's something only Konami have and no other game around the world can boast, and moreover would undoubtedly add more international exposure to the J-League.

I got the impression from the interview that Jon actually wants the J-League license to be included, but Seabass or the Konami exec team seem to be rather oblivious of this pretty glaring oversight. I hope they get this nonsense out of their head and just include it in future games; not doing so is quite absurd. But I got the impression they are warming up to the idea and Jon will push for it to be included in next year's game, hopefully.
 
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Hang on a second... did I really read something about a demo soon? As soon as Wednesday for the PS3?

I may have glimpsed it and misread but, if not, is it for real? A demo out soonish?
 
I just want to say that in the current scenario, the demo release day is going to be EPIC in PES forums.
 
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fluoroescent said:
NGB have just posted part two of their interview with Jon Murphy and Seabass and they talk about licenses, most notably the J-League license that Konami own:

YouTube - Gamescom 2011: PES 2012 interview part 2

The reason given at the end was frankly BS. I am pretty sure many would love to see another licensed league, especially Asia's largest, in the game, and really, how could it hurt to include it, when you already have the exclusive license?

For example, do you see EA blocking their license of the K-League to simply Korea or certain regions, when they have clearly less to lose than Konami (I mean, can't Konami's execs see which game has less licenses)? It would add value and replayability to the game, and attract more people to it, so why not use this rather than stifle it? Plus, it's something only Konami have and no other game around the world can boast, and moreover would undoubtedly add more international exposure to the J-League.

I got the impression from the interview that Jon actually wants the J-League license to be included, but Seabass or the Konami exec team seem to be rather oblivious of this pretty glaring oversight. I hope they get this nonsense out of their head and just include it in future games; not doing so is quite absurd. But I got the impression they are warming up to the idea and Jon will push for it to be included in next year's game, hopefully.
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Agreed, the more leagues the better, licensed or not.

PES needs to expand - it does the top level well, replicating player appearances and (usually) the way the player acts accurately, but football is far deeper than the top divisions.
I wish Konami would add lower leagues, as I said, licensed or not.

The Football League license isn't exclusive - FIFA and FM currently both use it at the same time, so maybe something could be negotiated there.
Even "First Touch Soccer" on the iPhone has the Championship in it, no badges and the team names are slightly off (i.e. "Coventry" instead of "Coventry City", but the player names are real, so what's the excuse?

PES is obviously geared towards football purists, but you couldn't blame someone not clued-up for thinking otherwise when you have Ronaldo/Messi on the cover and only have top divisions included in the game.

That said, FIFA's implementation of the lower leagues, with every team being a bunch of clones except for kits would not be welcome.
 
Great gameplay here

I love how players sometimes struggle to trap the ball, everything looks pretty damn good.

FFS don't mention the "bug".
 
Arkane said:
Does anybody know about what´s going on with the Bundesliga license?

Today my cousin showed me all the stuff of his new iPad, I was checking that he had a soccer game called Real football, and that game has a fake Bundesliga with incorrect team names, but some of the squads have accurate player names, I was like :SHOCK: how can other companies can include Fake Bundesliga teams and why is Konami unable to do it.
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there might be some crazy out-of-this-world license ties that limit certain licenses to certain platforms etc.

you can put the craziest things down on paper and people gotta stick to it.

or konami are simply pussys not willing to risk anything against their competition. how bad can it get, really? if they sue you and you lose for having fake licenses you could still just patch that league out of the game via online patching later on and it would be settled.
 
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