PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

henrys hand said:
Through the fan-feedback it got to the attention of Konami that the customers want way smoother animation and more responsive players, and Konami reacted and did what they could to make it possible with the same animation-engine by developing this new "flow-block-motion"-technology.
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I hear what you're saying but I think it's fair to say Konami would have worked to improve such things anyway, regardless of feedback. Seabass would have known that PES needed to be more responsive and better animated - I don't think he's that stupid - so it's debatable whether these improvements were fan-driven or developer-driven.

I'm going for the latter.

henrys hand said:
Then the thing with the nets, it got in because many fans wished for it.
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Yep, and this is where fan feedback is most likely used. As I said, things on the periphery like nets, were probably not known issues to Seabass until we kicked up a fuss about it.
 
Jamezinho said:
I hear what you're saying but I think it's fair to say Konami would have worked to improve such things anyway, regardless of feedback. Seabass would have known that PES needed to be more responsive and better animated - I don't think he's that stupid - so it's debatable whether these improvements were fan-driven or developer-driven.
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I think Konami wouldn't have worked to improve the animations and fludity if there was no feedback. Just remember PES 2008 and 2009 : there was absolutely no direction, Konami obviously didn't know which path to follow, they were trying things just like that(tricks using the left stick, "teamvision", players made heavy weighted to recreate some inertia/realism etc.) without any medium/long term vision or philosophy.

Feedback (plus EA's tough competition) made them realize they were totally getting lost and which areas needed a complete overhaul. That's why I thing feedback played a crucial part in what we saw last year and what we're going to see in PES 2012.

Konami have a really bad habit, when it comes to PES, to rest on their laurels. That's why feedback is so important.
 
Even Seabass must have realised that PES2008, 09 & 10 were nowhere near as good as PES5. I refuse to believe he is that stupid, deluded or naive to think that those games were up to his normal standards.

Sorry, there's no way things like animations and reactions times would have been left as they were when they were not even up to the standard of the PS2 games. They would have improved regardless of feedback.
 
My impression was that Konami trying to code for several different platforms at once killed them because they weren't really set up for it. PES 5 was the product of several years of just working on one platform - they had started branching out, but were on a strong footing at the time. When next gen came in, it was the straw that broke the camel's back.
 
romagnoli said:
My impression was that Konami trying to code for several different platforms at once killed them because they weren't really set up for it. PES 5 was the product of several years of just working on one platform - they had started branching out, but were on a strong footing at the time. When next gen came in, it was the straw that broke the camel's back.
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This.

I remember Seabass being quoted at a games show back around the time of PES6 or 2008. He was bemoaning the lack of investment in PES (although in a very diplomatic way) even though the game was selling very well. The move to multi-platform development, plus the jump on to next-gen technology really stretched a very small development team.

The abortion that was PES2008 wouldn't have been a design choice by Seabass. He tried to re-write the game for next-gen consoles but wasn't blessed with the same resources and investment the Fifa team had at the time. Mistakes were made, but slowly and surely they are putting them right.
 
even if they are returning to form i don't think Konami will be able to reach ts past glory within the remaining time in this console generation
we must only hope they learned their lesson and have already started developing a next gen engine, or at least have an idea what to do, otherwise they will repeat the same mistake

i think it's the Blue Sky team that should do this, the question is do Blue Sky Team even exist?
 
Ameppe said:
even if they are returning to form i don't think Konami will be able to reach ts past glory within the remaining time in this console generation
we must only hope they learned their lesson and have already started developing a next gen engine, or at least have an idea what to do, otherwise they will repeat the same mistake

i think it's the Blue Sky team that should do this, the question is do Blue Sky Team even exist?
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Konami probably have two more PES development cycles after this year before a new 360 is released. A PS4 will probably be further down the line, which could bring about the same problems as this generation seeing as Konami's focus will always be the Playstation.

They probably have enough time to create a truly great football game but the trouble is it will probably be the last year of this generation of consoles. Basically a repeat of the PES5 situation where Konami hit perfection, then along came new technology to throw up new challenges.

The Blue Sky team is just corporate bullshit speak, as in Blue Sky thinking, a generic business term for forward thinking. The team probably exists but I doubt they are literally called the Blue Sky team. :))
 
henrys hand said:
Of course this whole fan-listening has also led to some wrong decisions like the retraction of the d-pad-control-abolishment or even worse this introduction of 2-player-at-once-team-control, which was supposedly one of the most wished for features (who would wish for something like that?).
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Why there is so much drama in this new feature?

I can see this as a big exploit to use online - How can you be so sure? oh and dont forget you can use it to cover open space aswell, maybe making offside traps. Who knows?


Runs should be stat-based? - right dont use it, a simple matter of taste
 
lukas_rod said:
Why there is so much drama in this new feature?

I can see this as a big exploit to use online - How can you be so sure? oh and dont forget you can use it to cover open space aswell, maybe making offside traps. Who knows?


Runs should be stat-based? - right dont use it, a simple matter of taste
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i like the idea of the new team mate control as u can use it to "cancel" a AI controlled team mate runs as u may sometimes find the AI is making excessive overlaps or diagonal runs and when u want ur team mate to stay close then u can cancel it with this team mate control feature
but just for clarification , u can't use this feature to cover spaces or to make off-side traps cause unfortunately the new team off-the-ball mate control is NOT available at the defensive situation
cheers
 
And Konami have a very 'asian' way of doing things. For a football game that wants to be successful worldwide, that may not be a very good thing. That involves not giving a shit about fan feedback.
 
hany3 said:
i like the idea of the new team mate control as u can use it to "cancel" a AI controlled team mate runs as u may sometimes find the AI is making excessive overlaps or diagonal runs and when u want ur team mate to stay close then u can cancel it with this team mate control feature
but just for clarification , u can't use this feature to cover spaces or to make off-side traps cause unfortunately the new team off-the-ball mate control is NOT available at the defensive situation
cheers
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I thought there will be next episodes of team mate off the ball (otb)control for defensive situation, no? or is it already confirmed that there would not be any otb control while defending ?

I mean just like after the 6 videos, i did not expect there would be any to follow. But we get 2 more for otb control.
 
Thespeedster84 said:
I thought there will be next episodes of team mate off the ball (otb)control for defensive situation, no? or is it already confirmed that there would not be any otb control while defending ?

I mean just like after the 6 videos, i did not expect there would be any to follow. But we get 2 more for otb control.
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it's confirmed , no off-the-ball team mate control in defensive situations
 
I just checked if what I experienced with the 25 min-matches in PES 2011 on xbox360 was just a placebo-effect or not using a scientific method, namely playing one and the same match in the same stadium with the same teams and time of day, the same formations, tactics etc... I played a championsleague-match using Benfica against Barcelona in the Wembley-stadium..:

1. Match, playtime set on 25 min, result: 1:5... Barcelona destroyed me and played very similar to how it would play in real life, lot of pressing and good ballposession and punishing mistakes very clean and the goals they made were not bad, all of them within the play, no freekick- or corner-goals. It was very difficult to even come near the goal-area of Barcelona, it needed good concentrated play... It felt thrilling and dynamic.

2. Match, playtime set on 10 min, result: 0:1... Barcelona achieved a freekick-goal shot by Messi, the play was actually a walk in the park, I had most of the ballposession and Barcelona's attempts at making goals easily seen through and stopped. The only reason why I didn't make a goal with Benfica was that I didn't push for it and the time went over too quick... If the time were 25 min with the same difficulty as in this 10 min-mode I would have made three or more goals.
It's a difficulty-difference like between top-player and the regular or even one below it. Not only that the game felt also shallow, not nearly as real, thrilling or dynamic as in the 25-min-mode.

Verdict: It's unbelievable that Konami would program such an awesome AI and thrilling as well as realistic feeling game and hide it away in the 25 min-mode, the 10 min-mode is pure arcade compared to the 25 min-mode. No placebo, hard reality, I checked it and double-checked under the same circumstances, the game is night and day between the different times set. I haven't yet checked the 30-min-mode, I will do that once I mastered the 25 min-mode. Am very happy now... finally PES 2011 is challenging! :BOP:
 
ML OUT??
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hany3 said:
it's confirmed , no off-the-ball team mate control in defensive situations
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ok, if it was there..

L3 is jockeying opponents on the ball
R3 is covering off the ball attacker making runs..

When the ball is through-passed to that attacker, what a mess the controller could be :P We still use R3 as controlling, but it is not easy to press tackle button. Or it will suddenly changes back to L3, i could see some madness there :JAY:
 
Thespeedster84 said:
ok, if it was there..

L3 is jockeying opponents on the ball
R3 is covering off the ball attacker making runs..

When the ball is through-passed to that attacker, what a mess the controller could be :P We still use R3 as controlling, but it is not easy to press tackle button. Or it will suddenly changes back to L3, i could see some madness there :JAY:
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Now imagine it in an attacking situation (the manual system)

L3 is controlling the player with the ball and R3 another player. You cant be 100% concentrated in both players, so if you're looking for the player without the ball, there is the possibility of the ball being stolen from you. If you're paying attention on the player with the ball, the run you're pretending to do will not be as good as you want.

And if you want to pass to that player, you will have to left the R3 (or use another finger, but that would mess with it i think), and that player will suddenly stop and then run for the ball

___
henrys i play pes2011 offline in 15min and I never tried it in 20-25 minutes. I will try it sometime (Although i dont have such patience :P)
 
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It definitely look s like they're taking a page from Fifa's hand book here.
 
lukas_rod said:
Now imagine it in an attacking situation (the manual system)

L3 is controlling the player with the ball and R3 another player. You cant be 100% concentrated in both players, so if you're looking for the player without the ball, there is the possibility of the ball being stolen from you. If you're paying attention on the player with the ball, the run you're pretending to do will not be as good as you want.

And if you want to pass to that player, you will have to left the R3 (or use another finger, but that would mess with it i think), and that player will suddenly stop and then run for the ball

___
henrys i play pes2011 offline in 15min and I never tried it in 20-25 minutes. I will try it sometime (Although i dont have such patience :P)
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yeah mate, i could not imagine using this in a fast pace build up. Also it seems we will need more free spaces on the ball before using this manual. But at least, it has been shown in the first 3 videos improvement on ai making intelligent run without the need for this team mate control stuff. Hopefully, the ai is good realistically.

Hey, but if you look at "crossing to heading" moment in official manual team control video at 1:25, the second player does not stop and run when the ball is passed. :))
 
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Lami said:
No one's sure at this point. But that's how it looks like for the screens and videos we've seen so far.
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i guess player will first need to register its profile,
then each player can get into 'Football Life',
and choose if you wanna be a manager(ML) or a football player(BaL) or more:P
 
I think Jon said something about how they will show how ML has "evolved" (not improved) for 2012. Might mean that it has changed a bit in what it is, and not only that they have been improving last years edition. Could be as simple as that they have decided to make it more realistic, more like Manager Mode in FIFA, instead of fantasy football. If they do, I hope it's an option you can choose so that old fans of ML can still play fantasy football.

Could also be that Football Life is like Career Mode in FIFA 11. I haven't played it, but it sounds like a smart thing to do, merge the two modes, so that IF you want to play BAL, you can do it inside a revamped ML.
 
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I'd like to know more about the level of pass support assistance, exatcly how much support the cpu gives in each level.

From what i saw on this video, it's good to know that on the second lowest level of asssitance passing still is stats based, so I assume that on the lowest level of assistance passing will still depend on stats, wich I think it has been conirmed before.

But what i'm concerned is that passing feels a bit too easy to be on the second lowest level of assistance.

Things like these make me want to play the game so badly. I'd rather having an offline beta test than online like last year just to test all settings, getting used to them and get the best out of them.
 
Yeah... the guy playing with Germany chose passing to be more "manually" and that had an impact on the game. He made more mistakes.

I noticed that it has more user imput to power up passes.
 
henrys hand said:
I also think Seabass has his own vision for the core-mechanics of the football, but I don't think the fan-service is just lip-service. The whole feedback-thing done in cooperation with WENB has led to many things included in PES 2012 that wouldn't have been there otherwise.
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This is where people are fooling them selfs (not saying you are fooling yourself). Things like better animation, better ai, new modes etc are already on KONAMI's agenda. People believe because of their feedback they implemented these stuff, but every donkey understand that this is not the case, because when you think about what is important in a football game and what you can do on next gen KONAMI is the first to understand they have to deliver on those parts. KONAMI went from good ai on the ps2 to shitty ai on next gen. now people are saying: "ooooohhh we had to give you feed back ?? i am sorry Seabass here is a list with all the improvements we want"

Think about it how much of the real things have been implemented that are REAL reguest? for example, Dynamic weather is a real request, not adding snow. snow should be in the game in the first place. why? because we play football in snow.

Sometimes it seems that people can't distinguish what a real request is and what should have been in the game in the first place.
 
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