PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

porridge said:
Early code or not, knowing what has happened in recent years, it's not necessarily over-analysing when someone is not really that impressed by various things we've seen.

People can, of course, endlessly find comfort from factors rather irrelevant, like these players "not playing the game as it should be played". However, PES's biggest issue is just that it actually allows you to play like that. Is it now all that questionable when one or two previewers have dreaded to use phrases like "still too arcade", angering some parts of the community who then hysterically begin defining the words "simulation" and "arcade" more to their liking?

So passing seems bloody awful without a shadow of doubt, and I do wonder how they're going to fix that ping-ponging now which undoubtedly is in the game (quick turn passes as I call them in my bad English). I'm not a developer, maybe there is an easy switch or something, but how likely is it that it doesn't come without a cost? So maybe the clichés "don't play this way" and "don't exploit that" will come handy once again.

Every year they say the same things about goalkeepers, they "will be fixed" at later stages and so on. Then at some point there will be the perfectly put announcement that "omg!!! keepers are fixed!!!". But let's face it, fixing goalkeepers in PES has usually meant that some unbelievable bugs in top player level have been eradicated (ones that are not even seen in miscellaneous gameplay videos, were they official or unofficial). That's what "fixing" actually means, doesn't it? I think - having seen most of the videos - it's fair to assume that the goalkeepers will not really change for the better from PES2011. They'll remain just as they have been.

And I wouldn't have any problem with that if only PES included an option to force top player goalkeeping at all times. In fact, it could save PES at least in terms of BAL or whatever it's going to be called. With hindsight, such a little thing would have made such a huge difference to PES2011. It'd have been possible to make BAL at least sort of enjoyable with some careful stats tweaking.

Actually, if I was the producer of PES, I would with no hesitation whatsoever scrap all the other goalkeeper levels than top player. If Seabass is so happy with "realistic" top player goalkeepers in PES, why do they insist on keeping the weakened ones in the game? Quite frankly, I don't get that. What's the use for the keepers we've seen over the years in Konami's OFFICIAL videos, for example?
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This is a fantastic post.

I missed the videos, they've been taken down but i can take a good guess as to how they played out and i feel a mini rant approaching.

Year on year, month on month we get the same old rubbish. We get Konami pushing that they are doing something revolutionary, that they are going to make the game as successful as it was in the past, and year on year the same faces and fanboys, headed up by that idiot Adam, overhype the game and every year disappointment reigns when it is released. I mean how anyone can take WENB seriously, who have to conform to Konami in order to get the exclusives is sheer madness.

It's one of the saddest gaming stories of all time, a franchise so successful and something that was, if you were around, some of the pinnacle points of football gaming and sports gaming over all. The gameplay, the atmosphere, teh ability to mix shorts and shirts, the quality master league, the editing. On Ps2 it was like christmas come early to unwrap your imported WE from play asia and pop it in your machine a few months early, they were special days.

now we just get people clinging on in the hope Konami will resurrect the game and bring it back to its former glory. For me until the next gen arrives and konami build the engine from the ground up this game is a failure. No one can convince me with their over zealous fanboyism that these games are in any way superior to anything Fifa has done over the last few years, no way. And fifa has its own problems of course, its in no way perfect and theres things that need sorting, but at least it has a quality about it.

For the first time in YEARS i am not buying this game on release. I've been duped by the hype year on year and had my fingers burned far too often with a first day purchase only for it to be worth next to nothing in the coming months, and i blame people in these forums and the likes of WENB blog for it, because they don't tell the truth and don't face up to the fact that without real intent and real development this game is broken, they'd rather hide behind pathetic excuses or tell people they arn't playing the game properly, it's embarrasing.

You got Klashman, on here who always writes good, full replies but if you didnt know better , you'd think he was on Seabass's payroll, defending every criticism, responding to every query.

Roll on next gen, and maybe just maybe if konami rip it up and start again, this franchise can gain the plaudits because for me it's like my team Liverpool, hanging on to its past and it's former reputation rather than going out there and doing the business and trying to recapture that glory.
 
I disagree, 25 mins is too long, the amount of scenarios and incident is too much. It fails to create the right balance, in my opinion.
 
What we're about to see at GC is most probably what we gonna get in release +- something and YES the net physics look very weird and shitty, so let the net fetishists worry about that.
The keepers in Pro have never ever changed dramatically and my mind just cant cope with the fact that for 5 years KONAMI can't improve them, they have like 5-6 animations and that's about it. In real life if you make boundaries to a keeper and tell him that he can dive and jump in 4 ways, he will most probably kill himself or smack you in the face with the glove. If KONAMI doesn't show refined and vastly improved animation set for keepers, then we gonna experience some real headaches when the game launches. I fear Milans forth goal, it reminded me so much of PES 2010 that i couldn't sleep last night.:CONFUSE:
 
Not sure I agree. For all the bad press keepers get, I see many good saves from them. Maybe the animations are lacking but they do alright those guys...
 
BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!

THIS BLOG HAS A LINK FOR DOWNLOAD PES 2012!!! i dont know if its fake or not...

http://pes2012fullgame.blogspot.com/

im at work right now.. i cant download :p
 
andresmendez1 said:
BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!!!!

THIS BLOG HAS A LINK FOR DOWNLOAD PES 2012!!! i dont know if its fake or not...

http://pes2012fullgame.blogspot.com/

im at work right now.. i cant download :p
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149a9_425AirportFlyingPigs.jpg
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
Not sure I agree. For all the bad press keepers get, I see many good saves from them. Maybe the animations are lacking but they do alright those guys...
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So a goalkeeper state of "alright" is alright for you guys, so there is no need for growing the animation system for them, there is no need of better AI, there is no need for a REAL GK Gloves? Cmon... you can talk this kind of nonsense to someone else....
 
Dryzer said:
This is a fantastic post.

I missed the videos, they've been taken down but i can take a good guess as to how they played out and i feel a mini rant approaching.

Year on year, month on month we get the same old rubbish. We get Konami pushing that they are doing something revolutionary, that they are going to make the game as successful as it was in the past, and year on year the same faces and fanboys, headed up by that idiot Adam, overhype the game and every year disappointment reigns when it is released. I mean how anyone can take WENB seriously, who have to conform to Konami in order to get the exclusives is sheer madness.

It's one of the saddest gaming stories of all time, a franchise so successful and something that was, if you were around, some of the pinnacle points of football gaming and sports gaming over all. The gameplay, the atmosphere, teh ability to mix shorts and shirts, the quality master league, the editing. On Ps2 it was like christmas come early to unwrap your imported WE from play asia and pop it in your machine a few months early, they were special days.

now we just get people clinging on in the hope Konami will resurrect the game and bring it back to its former glory.
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You got Klashman, on here who always writes good, full replies but if you didn't know better , you'd think he was on Seabass's payroll, defending every criticism, responding to every query.
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Just for you information. I've been on those terrible EA forums since 2004 you know? :YAWN: So much for me being a PES fanboy the amount of stuff i did for the EA patching community! Just ask and I'll show you. Also just ask Shorty Alien, Dudu or Honome, three very good manual FIFA players, well at least on FIFA 09 :P

So i have to subscribe to what you believe? Take the safe option? I have to agree with what you do you want from a football game?

I like my football game to be on the realistic, on the simulation side and i judge games which claim to be a simulation on these 5 factors:
------

A football game needs these things:

1. Tactics and Formations

2. Player Attributes. Individuality
How well are players stats replicated ingame?

3. Animations

4. Ball and player physics

5. Game function balance
How well replicated are shooting, passing, crossing errors etc... How teams structure their attacks, what are the methods to score? How intelligent overall is the AI on your team and with the CPU

-----

For me PES 2011 does well for me and better than any other game in points 1, 2 and 5. I openly admit i over analyze football games because I'm not a gamer and i just love my football. That's it. Rather simple. The reason i tend to defend PES 2011 is because it seems i see more in this game than others do. Some here just subscribe to the old PS2 days mentally, play 10 minute games only and expect the AI to be tough to beat. Even in they cheat to the extreme. Since FIFA 08 and playing 10 minute half's. Short games just don't cut it for me!

So my answer is NO, i don not cling onto this 'faint' hope in which you surround yourself in. I'm actually happy with PES 2011 as it is. I think Konami is in a good place. I just think people need to open their minds a little more in more ways than one.

I don't speak glowingly about FIFA because i've been severely let down by EA since FIFA 09. It's become the 'commercial and loved game' So the gameplay quality and depth as severely suffered and i just find it embarrassing that EA are so far behind Konami in terms of AI. I like you believed PES was going to die in the build up to PES 2010, since the series just seemed to be going nowhere and EA where in such good shape.

What lead me back to PES in 2009/10 was that I had been barking at EA all year to sort out the general AI defensive and off the ball issues along with the individuality and bringing back proper inertia from FIFA 08. FIFA 12 is on the horizon, if anything the AI is actually worse than FIFA 09, which was diabolical in itself.

For me until the next gen arrives and konami build the engine from the ground up this game is a failure. No one can convince me with their over zealous fanboyism that these games are in any way superior to anything Fifa has done over the last few years, no way. And fifa has its own problems of course, its in no way perfect and theres things that need sorting, but at least it has a quality about it.
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See the problem with this mentality you have and this whole post is that you go on saying. "PES was once great, Now it's not, ohh it's so said. But you never really get to the point! You don't give men an example of why PES is dead in your eyes. Maybe it's because you already know that your an animations. glossy, responsiveness kind of guy and if you state that you think people would disagree.

What it comes down to, in your opinion, you think PES is dead. In mine, i feel PES is in a very good place. Commercially in the shadow of FIFA so kids don't dictate silly stuff such as flair passing to be implemented. The hardcore can have their say and have a game which gives them to the most part a game that they want.

Times have changed, the game has changed and i think you need to re adjust your perspective on things. PES was the king back on the PS2 days but what was it's competition back then exactly? I mean it was awesome at the time but what did FIFA exactly offer? FIFA was a barely playable joke in the PS2 era. PES games from that time So much so the kids started playing PES downwards the end and dragged PES down.

Hey I'm not saying PES 2011 was better than PES 5 etc.. at the time. it's not. But it's a far more advanced game than the PS2 versions. Far, far more advanced in most areas. It's pretty much a fact.

For the first time in YEARS i am not buying this game on release. I've been duped by the hype year on year and had my fingers burned far too often with a first day purchase only for it to be worth next to nothing in the coming months, and i blame people in these forums and the likes of WENB blog for it, because they don't tell the truth and don't face up to the fact that without real intent and real development this game is broken, they'd rather hide behind pathetic excuses or tell people they arn't playing the game properly, it's embarrasing.
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So how do you play the game what do you look for in PES?

Personally i see the big picture and not everyone like me wants a full simulation. not everyone want's to explore the game and spend ages on tactics. Many different people want different things.

Oh and please, don't contradict yourself and this post by saying 'Oh but FIFA plays well if you don't do lofted through balls' But you say PES is rubbish and i make excuses in saying that 'Your not playing it properly'.
 
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I think it's way too early to condemn PES 2012 because of a video showing amateurs playing the game on possibly speed +2 filmed and uploaded on youtube with 30 fps with a code from pre-E3 that is merely developed to 60%.

There is no way what we saw in the video will be in the final game. For a starter in the pre-E3-code the newly developed fatigue-system was not in, so spamming the running has no punishment.

Remember it was not planned by Konami to let these videos of this early gamecode come to light and for good reasons, since many elements aren't built in and many things weren't finetuned. I think it would be more fair to wait for videos from preview-code or from the gamescom-build before engaging in rantings.

I'm looking forward to the game, with smoother animation, better ballphysics, with fixed playerswitching and much better AI it will probably be very nice.

That said, the 2-player-control-feature is imho an unbelievable big mistake and I hope it gets abolished before release of the full game.
 
Do we know for sure that there's going to be a "newly-developed fatigue system"? I've seen a couple of people mention this, but not seen any official announcement. Have I just missed it?
 
dannyfc2 said:
That's actually a fantastic idea of how to implement sprinting.
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Absolutetly.

Too bad it's to early to request this, maybe for pes 2013.

About that "ping pong" talk, i don't think it looks as bad as people are saying here, in trust me, this is one the things i used to hate most in Fifa 09 and Fifa 10.

So I, inevitably, compared those videos to Fifa's and, seriously, it's nothing like in Fifa. The AI in PES alone makes a HUGE difference (passes can be easily intercepted, it's very clear there), and some contextual erros are clearly there, but I agree that maybe not enough.

It dos not feel like ping pong at all to me, but I do agree that passing overall needs to "feel" harder (specially firs time touchs). This was one of the first things i complained on this videos.

But it's ealy code, let's be more patient and wait for Gamescom.:))
 
henrys hand said:
I think it's way too early to condemn PES 2012 because of a video showing amateurs playing the game on possibly speed +2 filmed and uploaded on youtube with 30 fps with a code from pre-E3 that is merely developed to 60%.

There is no way what we saw in the video will be in the final game. For a starter in the pre-E3-code the newly developed fatigue-system was not in, so spamming the running has no punishment.

Remember it was not planned by Konami to let these videos of this early gamecode come to light and for good reasons, since many elements aren't built in and many things weren't finetuned. I think it would be more fair to wait for videos from preview-code or from the gamescom-build before engaging in rantings.

I'm looking forward to the game, with smoother animation, better ballphysics, with fixed playerswitching and much better AI it will probably be very nice.

That said, the 2-player-control-feature is imho an unbelievable big mistake and I hope it gets abolished before release of the full game.
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This.

Well said Henry, Bang on the money.
 
ElvisSs said:
YES the net physics look very weird and shitty, so let the net fetishists worry about that.
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nets and keepers such tiny things but konami will never nail them on current gen
konami never look at the 6 yard area where the keeper with the steel cage behind always there lol
 
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To be honest I'm starting to think that the two-player control thing is just a gimmick like "link feints" - something that sounds gamebreaking but will largely be ignored because it's just too fiddly and doesn't offer enough reward.

It also depends on what's happened with pressing this year. If you can just smother the ball carrier with 5 sprinting knobheads like in PES2011, it'll be totally useless anyway.
 
henrys hand said:
I think it's way too early to condemn PES 2012 because of a video showing amateurs playing the game on possibly speed +2 filmed and uploaded on youtube with 30 fps with a code from pre-E3 that is merely developed to 60%.
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So the next thing that I notice is the speed..! Now I usually play on +2 so the game seemed a little slow for me.. and unfortunately i didn’t have the option to change it.. Not to worry.
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http://www.winningeleven.sg/forum/showthread.php?t=183

I am so tired to hear the same story every year. 60% build, E3 Code, Konami gonna fix all these things, pes is back, our build was much better as these videos.... all that fanboy stuff from konami, wenb blog and also users here.
I played the pes/iss series for 13 years and had so much fun but in the last 4 years it was the same boring story again again and again. GET RID OFF IT!

ps: and no i dont think fifa is the better game. it have other big issues.
 
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I think Porridge made one hell of a post way back there. I too am beginning to question just what the vision Konami have for their game is. For instance the lack of a functioning stamina system this year will be unforgivable given the game in its state in those videos. The pace in those gameplay videos is too fast and i simply don't want to play a game that allows you to sprint around like a maniac. Surely Konami can see that's how people are able to play their game so there is inherently an issue there. Porridge mentioned forcing you to be able to not play like this. Isn't that what this forum is asking for? A realistic game. If Konami can't see their own problems then i'm at a loss. It's clear as day that there's a problem there for us but is this necessarilly something that Konami sees as a problem?

I'm willing to see how the game plays out this year with a neutral point of view. I think it's a pivotal year for PES personally. It'll be one whereby we'll see which direction the series really is headed. I like these forums but sometimes i do think my point of view is influenced by the largely positive thinking of most forum users (i.e i end up thinking things will be fixed because i'm being told they will rather than any kind of real evidence). I think Porridge's post made me put things into perspective because that is largely what he was getting at. I'm not being negative but i'm trying to look at things from an objective point of view and all i have to go by so far is that e3 code unfortunately. I don't think i'll be convinced that the game is going to be good or bad until i've played it for myself.
 
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hany3 said:
nets and keepers such tiny things but konami will never nail them on current gen
konami never look at the 6 yard area where the keeper with the steel cage behind always there lol
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If we go back in the day, when PES was The King, PS2 era, the keepers were quite good and responsive, they had enough animations that worked well, but when we hit NG era, the keepers haven't moved an inch.
 
Pere Ubu said:
To be honest I'm starting to think that the two-player control thing is just a gimmick like "link feints" - something that sounds gamebreaking but will largely be ignored because it's just too fiddly and doesn't offer enough reward.

It also depends on what's happened with pressing this year. If you can just smother the ball carrier with 5 sprinting knobheads like in PES2011, it'll be totally useless anyway.
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Come to think of it, link feints really was a massive failure :LOL:

I mean i think most people have completely forgotten it even exists! I do use it from time to time because i mapped the Mathews feint to it, but that' it!

Whats happening with the tricks this year.
 
All this talk has got me thinking, I'm ditching 15 minutes matches and upping it to 20 minutes for 2012.

I don't like to be rushed and sometimes get caught out by the clock because I think I have more time than I actually do. I blame 2K.
 
Dryzer said:
This is a fantastic post.

I missed the videos, they've been taken down but i can take a good guess as to how they played out and i feel a mini rant approaching.

Year on year, month on month we get the same old rubbish. We get Konami pushing that they are doing something revolutionary, that they are going to make the game as successful as it was in the past, and year on year the same faces and fanboys, headed up by that idiot Adam, overhype the game and every year disappointment reigns when it is released. I mean how anyone can take WENB seriously, who have to conform to Konami in order to get the exclusives is sheer madness.

It's one of the saddest gaming stories of all time, a franchise so successful and something that was, if you were around, some of the pinnacle points of football gaming and sports gaming over all. The gameplay, the atmosphere, teh ability to mix shorts and shirts, the quality master league, the editing. On Ps2 it was like christmas come early to unwrap your imported WE from play asia and pop it in your machine a few months early, they were special days.

now we just get people clinging on in the hope Konami will resurrect the game and bring it back to its former glory. For me until the next gen arrives and konami build the engine from the ground up this game is a failure. No one can convince me with their over zealous fanboyism that these games are in any way superior to anything Fifa has done over the last few years, no way. And fifa has its own problems of course, its in no way perfect and theres things that need sorting, but at least it has a quality about it.

For the first time in YEARS i am not buying this game on release. I've been duped by the hype year on year and had my fingers burned far too often with a first day purchase only for it to be worth next to nothing in the coming months, and i blame people in these forums and the likes of WENB blog for it, because they don't tell the truth and don't face up to the fact that without real intent and real development this game is broken, they'd rather hide behind pathetic excuses or tell people they arn't playing the game properly, it's embarrasing.

You got Klashman, on here who always writes good, full replies but if you didnt know better , you'd think he was on Seabass's payroll, defending every criticism, responding to every query.

Roll on next gen, and maybe just maybe if konami rip it up and start again, this franchise can gain the plaudits because for me it's like my team Liverpool, hanging on to its past and it's former reputation rather than going out there and doing the business and trying to recapture that glory.
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Thanks for giving us poor blind fans facts we didn't know. Thanks for showing us the light. We really wouldn't know what we could've done without such wisdom.

P.S. Have you ever heard of something called, taste? Did it ever occur to you that people have tastes and opinions different to yours?

I'm not really sure why you put all the people enjoying the game under WENB's umbrella. WENB is a place known to be about hype. If you were on it sucked into their hype then you only have yourself to blame. But to say people on here enjoying PES are "over zealous fanboys" is wrong. And to say you blame the guys on here, who are enjoying the game, for your disappointment? You can't be serious, surely? I think you are old enough to be your own judge.

because they don't tell the truth and don't face up to the fact that without real intent and real development this game is broken, they'd rather hide behind pathetic excuses or tell people they arn't playing the game properly, it's embarrasing
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Fact? What fact? It is only your opinion. And my opinion is that 2010 is a very good game, and so is 2011. So I guess I'm a liar, and I hide behind pathetic excuses, huh? Can I have my own opinion Mr.? The game isn't perfect, but I do enjoy it. Guess I should be quite embarrassed of myself then.

And no one is trying to convince you PES is superior to Fifa. This is a forum, we have discussions in here, debates etc. Also, what you consider Fifa has done over the years superior to PES is again your opinion. Many here do not like many of the things Fifa have implemented and think they're pretty useless. And that is our opinion.

What I concluded from your post, is that you're clearly not convinced with PES on this gen, at all, and therefore will only consider PES again if they change their current system, and that you're very happy with Fifa.

You haven't discussed what exactly annoys you with PES and how you want it improved. Instead, you opted to go all out blame us for your disappointment labeling all of us as liars.

According to this, I'm not quite sure how your post would add anything to a healthy discussion. It's all hate and accusation tone and would trigger nothing but unnecessary reactions.

Respect that people have different tastes and opinions. Always post and reply keeping in mind you still respect others opinions. Degrading and disrespecting other members because they do not agree with you adds nothing and only makes matters worse.

This goes out to everyone as well. Please keep it respectful. Enjoy a healthy discussion.

Over and out.
 
Porridge mentioned about players not being give the chance the play like morons in the videos? I didn't agree with everything he said, but i do agree the point is not to let players like like that. I think the issue with that is similar to what happened to FIFA 08. Ping Pong in FIFA 08 was totally fucking useless because of the inertia and momentum. there huge responsiveness issues so passing was hard by default to ping pong the ball about.

Anyway in that game you were pretty much forced to play slow buildup football which is what hardcore like us love unless you were Pre-January update Barca or Manchester United with Ratface where you just sprinted past everyone!. So many kids complained. Also the reviewers gave FIFA 08 a grilling because it was very hard to get the hang of. EA went overboard with the responsiveness and brought the game back to it's arcadey roots.

So the issue is the mass public just wants a relatively easy to pickup game. I think PES 2011 more than most had a issue with really balancing between giving every type of football game enthusiast what they want. That's an issue we face today. Finding a balance! PES in the PS2 mastered this with the easy to pickup, but hard to master controls. But like the point i made on the other page, the huge flaws those games had with the AI cheating like crazy on professional and top player and scripted goals (Secret lob) Where swept under the carpet. In a few cases it gave the game a very false sense of 'skill'.

PES in the PS2 had such a good reputation, flaws such as scripted goals like the secret lob and animation bugs were seem as not just funny but some actually deemed them as a skill. Yes a skill!

PES now with it's bad reputation gets destroyed when any sort of bug or ugly animation pops up!
 
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