PES 2011 Discussion thread

[mjsmith2k]

how can you say Fifa is an arcade game?
it tries to recreate realistically football game, maybe it fails, but its target is simulation
we all should thank EA for their games, because even if we don't like them, they gave a great boost to competition for the best football game out there
and we, customers, will have ever improving games thanks to this

You're right it does aim to be a simulation, but it's thin on the ground when it comes to the actual 'football' in it. Simply put it's a FIFA simulation, not a true football simulation . Sure you can score some nice goals, you can do all the fancy tricks that Ronaldo can do, it has 360 dribbling and manual controls giving you the freedom to pass and move should you want them (most people don't - sticking it on assisted controls). However, this isn't what football is all about. There's no build-up play, there's no midfield battles, there's no individuality, style, tactics and the AI seem to be playing a different game. The game is also far too fast.

Whilst FIFA games remain to be heralded as being successful I can't see them drastically changing their vision of a football game. At least for me PES has stuck to it's principles produced a 'football' game and has evolved with each new release (however small it may be). PES 2010 was the start of PES returning as a serious football game.

------

Anyone know of a potential date for news?

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

how can you say Fifa is an arcade game?
it tries to recreate realistically football game, maybe it fails, but its target is simulation
we all should thank EA for their games, because even if we don't like them, they gave a great boost to competition for the best football game out there
and we, customers, will have ever improving games thanks to this

1. No individuality in the players, and no effort to make that happen. You cannot simulate a sport without simulating what you covert. It may as well be Virtua Soccer on next gen with amazing graphics. The philosophy is the same. 22 players and a ball. Not 22 individuals that collectively make up a unique team.

2. No first touch. The most important aspect of football and the base for everything that follows. Without this aspect, it isnt simulating football. Therefore it's an arcade representation. Albeit a very stunning looking one.

3. No alternate foot use, or frequency of use. Left/right foot, it doesnt matter. Please tell me how its possible to create a simulation without having such a massive feature missing ? You cant.

4. Some of the most ridiculous tricks that I have ever seen, and also never seen. Very arcade like, completely unrealistic. It's a football game, not Billy Wingroves half hour.

5. No emphasis on it's core offline system. MM ? What ? Broken beyond belief which indicates EA are simply not bothered in trying to recreate a decent offline option. Not that it matters really. It's hardly like PES ML where every single player on the database is completely different to the next. All your buying is a name, with extra or lesser speed. Not an individual. Do you think Real Madrid paid £70 million for Ronaldo because he plays the same as Lee Catermole ? Nope. They did it because he has a completely unique skill-set made up from a plethora of technical variables.

6. Fully assisted controls that can be played by a one-eyed short-sighted Cyclops. Or a 5 year old kid.

7. Fully manual controls that take out of the equation any need for having any individualism. A true 'Gamer's game. A game of button pressing and holding the power bar skill. Nothing to do with the ability of the footballers, just the ability of the gamer.

8. No body balance or angles. No matter what the players posture, the resulting pass has the same outcome. This isnt simulating a footballer. A player off balance should not have the same passing accuracy as a player posture perfect.

These are 8 excellent reasons just off the top of my head. Dont get me wrong. I dont think Fifa is a bad game, it's very good at what it does. But it isnt a simulation, and never will be. I agree though that Fifa is excellent for PES progression which is the only thing that matters to me.

Eurogamer Italy

FIFA World Cup 2010 is a good arcade soccer game. If you're looking for a deep simulation, try something else, but if you want to just finish a match with incredible scores and using fantastic tricks, this is your soccer game.

65IGN

2010 FIFA World Cup South Africa will appease younger gamers who just want to go kick the soccer ball, hear unrealistically loud noises when players take a shot and see lots of bright colors. Those looking for a realistic soccer game won’t find it here, but then again you shouldn’t expect to.

SpazioGames

An arcadish soccer game, sometimes funny. If you like your soccer you'd still better stick with Pro Evolution Soccer, far deeper and more satisfying.

Boomtown

Despite the many disappointments, undoubtedly the thing that disappointed me the most with FIFA World Cup 2010 is that it has no identity. It doesn’t know whether it’s a simulation or a simplistic arcade game

Spot on. I couldnt have said it better myself.

 

[Nick Cave]

Neither game come close to where I think a Sim should be they both have big and little faults too but lets keep this on PES, remember Tom is watching, always watching this includes slating FIFA then adding a tiny on topic snip at the end...

 

[Lami]

Its a lost case trying to defend Fifa in here. This is a PES dedicated thread after all.

To me all this talk is fine as long as it stays this way. The moment flaming/trolling etc happens then thats when we start having problems.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Neither game come close to where I think a Sim should be they both have big and little faults too but lets keep this on PES, remember Tom is watching, always watching this includes slating FIFA then adding a tiny on topic snip at the end...

I simply answered a question Nick. End of story. If the truth hurts. It isnt my problem. I'm not slating Fifa, I'm simply stating cold hard facts as to why it ISNT a simulation. In my opinion of course. Other than that, it's a great game.

 

[Gab_]

I never thought I would say this but I agree with Jimmy on everything he said. Like I've said before, it was easy to be fooled by the animations but now I'm awake again.

Jon Murphy and some journos are saying that new info will be released "soon". I wonder if they think June 1-3 is soon or if they'll drop something before that.

 

[BillyBoy]

I have loved every PES/WE up to PES 2008 & 2009. 2008 was the worst game of the series. A complete mess that should not have been released as it has tainted an otherwise remarkable series. PES 2009 saw them scrambling to fix these horrible issues and while it was a slight improvement with the inclusion of UCL and BAL it was still hugely disappointing. In these bad years for PES I switched to FIFA 08 which I found to be enjoyable apart from the somewhat crippling response issues. FIFA 09 developed on the good things of FIFA 08 and was a very good game, but still reached nowhere near the stratospheric heights of PES/WE on PS2 (my personal favourite being Winning Eleven 8: Liveware Evolution closely followed by PES 5 and 3).

With FIFA 09 being quite a good game I looked forward to FIFA 10 especially with all the new features they were promising such as 360 degree dribbling and improvements to the Manager Mode. With PES suffering hugely it was a good time for FIFA to deal a deep strike to Konami's football series but in all honesty the failed to do so. With all the hype about the game generated by the press and also some members here at Evo-Web I was expecting the next best football game, but by the time the game was in my hands I felt so underwhelmed. At first it wasnt so bad. The ball physics were slightly better (but still crap, long range shots still felt weak) and the animations were wonderful to look at.

But then within a month the glaring problems of an EA Sports title started to appear. Repetitiveness- especially with the goals. There is no randomness to the game whatsoever. Most of the goals are the same. A 1on1 situation with the goalkeeper and a weak tap in for the goal. No real player individuality. Too many cheaters online. Fragmentation with regards to Assisted/Semi/Manual online - Your playing fully manual and your opponent is playing fully Assisted. Then finally when playing Manager Mode all those awful bugs started to appear like my players being sold even though my assistant coach was turned off!

I bought PES 2010 on release date and pretty much stopped playing FIFA. However while PES 2010 in my opinion is a more enjoyable game then FIFA 10 this year its still not as good as the standards set in the PS2 days. While the graphics and player models are fantastic there are some problems in regards to the animations which are pathetic, the rigidness of the game and how it makes you feel so constricted, the lack of REAL 360 degree movement (this is more like 16/32 way movement), passes going to the wrong player, no choice of being a defender in BAL, offline community mode problems and the still bad lag on online modes. But despite all these problems PES 2010 is the best PES for the current generation of consoles and in comparison to FIFA just brings to life the randomness, feeling and sheer emotion of football. With the new engine for PES 2011 and the emphasis on full freedom with power bars and a 360 degree system for all areas I'm looking forward to this game more than any other football game this gen!

 

[romagnoli]

I think those are all valid reasons, and they are all ones raised by people in our FIFA 10 threads here which I have passed on to the devs.

One thing I would argue about the tricks is that a number of them are actually fairly prevalent in modern football. Certainly a lot more than they were 10 years ago. Portuguese and South American football is rife with it, as any Everton fan watching their European travails this year would attest. The English leagues are still relatively short on trickery but there is a he'll of a lot more of it on the continent.

The rainbow flick is a pet hate, and I think the rabona fake is too easy to actually pull off, but I think tricks could be toned down fairly effectively by adding error of some sort to the more complex tricks and improving the effectiveness of left stick dribbling/ decreasing the recovery of defenders. It's definitely not as bad as some would have you believe though.

 

[Tom]

Neither game come close to where I think a Sim should be they both have big and little faults too but lets keep this on PES, remember Tom is watching, always watching this includes slating FIFA then adding a tiny on topic snip at the end...

 

[Northzzz]

Still the weird thing about Fifa is the fact that a stepover, probably the easiest and most prevalant trick in football to do, is actually so inconveniently mapped on the right thumb stick that you end up either a)a completely different trick or b) a step over and then some other trick that you didn't mean to do and ends ups running you into the defender. Either way it's hard to do say more then 2 step overs continuously with any real ease.

I do like the way that in PES they are mapped to the LB/L1 but i wish you didn't have to always push the ball in front on you after doing 2 in a row. It makes the ball feel more stuck to a player and less like of an individual object. Hopefully this changes in PES 2011 because i'm sure, well i'm just assuming here, you didn't have to push the ball forward everytime in the old PES' if you didn't want to.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Still the weird thing about Fifa is the fact that a stepover, probably the easiest and most prevalant trick in football to do, is actually so inconveniently mapped on the right thumb stick that you end up either a)a completely different trick or b) a step over and then some other trick that you didn't mean to do and ends ups running you into the defender. Either way it's hard to do say more then 2 step overs continuously with any real ease.

I do like the way that in PES they are mapped to the LB/L1 but i wish you didn't have to always push the ball in front on you after doing 2 in a row. It makes the ball feel more stuck to a player and less like of an individual object.

What I cannot understand for the life of me, is why Konami are rumoured to be getting rid of the current feint system thats in place. It's simplistic, and perfectly mapped to ensure the trick/feint is executed in exactly the same way your motion would reflect ? It's brilliant at present. The fact it takes skill, split second timing, and more importantly, the awareness of knowing which actual foot the player is currently using to determine which direction you attempt the feint, is genius.

The feint is actually pulled off in exactly the same motion you would expect it be, so there is no confusion, bar the correct foot issue. I guess if I was being extremely picky, then really, the better the player, the easier it should be to pull off the feint. At present, a two-footed player, with better technique is harder to judge than a player that predominatly uses his stronger foot. This is all when attempting the feints available to players with 80 dribbling accuracy or above.

To be honest, the step-over's in PES are just cosmetic. They may work against CPU AI at times when your looking to change direction, and offering up a distraction. Other than that, they dont do anything. The feints of which there are 3 brilliant ones, are very effective against both CPU and human. Then the signature tricks, that are player specific, are usually pulled off randomly depending on your movement. Which I like to be honest. Little turns that result in cheeky little flicks. The same end product, just done with some finesse. It's nice on the eye. And it emphasises the technique of that individual, Ibra is a perfect example.

I just dont see how a right trick stick on PES 2011 is going to be anywhere near as fluid, instinctive or an improvement on whats already in place in PES 2010 ??

Edit - Northzzz Press R2 instead of the shoulder buttons and the ball wont be kicked ahead of you. Alternatively, if the player has the Quick-Scissor Dribble Player Card, then R2 produces the stepovers, quickly and close within his person. Ala Ronaldo.

 

[romagnoli]

I agree about stepovers. You can't get up to Ronaldo speed, nothing like it. It's good for a solitary stepover, but it's just too big a movement to queue the next one up. It's still a far better trick system for most movements though.

 

[jonneymendoza]

You're right it does aim to be a simulation, but it's thin on the ground when it comes to the actual 'football' in it. Simply put it's a FIFA simulation, not a true football simulation . Sure you can score some nice goals, you can do all the fancy tricks that Ronaldo can do, it has 360 dribbling and manual controls giving you the freedom to pass and move should you want them (most people don't - sticking it on assisted controls). However, this isn't what football is all about. There's no build-up play, there's no midfield battles, there's no individuality, style, tactics and the AI seem to be playing a different game. The game is also far too fast.

Whilst FIFA games remain to be heralded as being successful I can't see them drastically changing their vision of a football game. At least for me PES has stuck to it's principles produced a 'football' game and has evolved with each new release (however small it may be). PES 2010 was the start of PES returning as a serious football game.

------

Anyone know of a potential date for news?

Thats my issue with fifa 10. i cant play it as a "footballl" game. i try to build up play but it never works. tactics are pretty much pointless in fifa 10.

 

[hanakuka]

i'm just talking about the fifa should have killed pes when it had the chance the truth is neither game can kill the other fifa has been better than pes lately and thus more people shifted over to fifa konami have noticed and have strived to make a better game which sounds like it will be a good game and if fifa sucks this year all the prodigals will go back to pes. well in short what i'm saying is that when it comes to pes and fifa you get a pendulum effect which will have you flocking to the better game and because both games have loyal fans both games will continue to be made because of that fact. i grew up on pes but have been playing fifa since 08 but have always had the hope that pes will get better and when it does i will go back to it but if they are both good then i will get both plus we still don't know what ea are doing with fifa 11 yet but i'm very excited by where pes is going

 

[jonneymendoza]

I agree with Jamezinho, Fifa 10 had the chance but it proved that it couldn't do it and i don't think the basic elements of the game means that it actual can. I used to be quite hopeful of them being able to make the next game excellent but i had to think to myself what they could actually realistically do to the series to make it that way. It's core is something i don't agree with and they won't change the foundations so everything else will just be an illusion. Plus they can't alienate the myriad of casual fans who really couldn't care less as long as it just stays smooth and plays easy. I do fail to believe that if you asked somebody to truly tell you why they liked Fifa they couldn't come up with a convincing reason.

Fifa is and has been exactly the same game as it always has been at heart. It's always sold more than PES for a start and the only difference now is that it gives the illusion of being good because it's so much smoother than PES but for my 2 cents worth it's barely a football game other than it involves 22 players and one circular object. I don't really want to get bogged down into a PES v FIFA debate because it's futile, they are there own individual games but for my money they've both been rubbish recently so it doesn't seem that people have had much choice.

What bemuses me is that there are quite a few people here who have this accepted notion that FIFA 10 is a let down and actually not good, but it's exactly the same game as FIFA 09 pretty much and the general consensus that i can gather seems to be that we liked that one (including myself). I just think it was a bit of a falsity, i think we secretly liked being able to go to another game for a change even if we didn't realise it. Choice is great, why have vanilla everytime even if i love it can't i try the chocolate and see if i prefer that (can't be bothered with a better analogy).

I don't even really see the big deal with the old PES'. The argument is usually, oh i liked PES 5/6 but PES 2010 is rubbish. Balls to that it's the same game, PES 5/6 weren't exactly a complete reflection of football personified perfectly in video game form. People liked them because they felt like football and encapsulated the emotion that goes with football not because the were perfect.

Fifa may be the flavour of the month right now and quite frankly it has a lot to do with PES being so so off form with 2008/2009 but i can see people turning back to PES with this new game. I can conclude this from personal experience, i came back to check out PES 2010 because FIFA 10 just got so dull and lifeless. They just need to create a game good enough to convince people to give it that second chance and i can see a lot flooding back.

decent post. But for me, BAP has been a revelational mode on a footy game. PES doesnt have this yet. They should imho.

 

[hanakuka]

decent post. But for me, BAP has been a revelational mode on a footy game. PES doesnt have this yet. They should imho.

isn't be a legend similar then ?

 

[Radiation]

I think he means BAP 10 vs 10 'online'

Be a Legend offline is far superior to Fifa offline version of BAP. You get much more of a sense that you're playing out a real career that you have to work hard to maintain. Now if only they could add some intensives for signing higher paying contracts with teams that are on the same level as your current club ( Like giving you something to spend your money on... like maybe you can unlock extra animations and celebrations, tricks, kit options, create player hair styles and bits and bobs.) and giving us a reason and a reward to stay with a certain club for a number of years instead of jumping ship at every chance.

Be a legend online is alright, and it's nice that it rewards you for team play and racks up combos and other bits. It makes playing as a team and not being greedy worthwhile. You'll get more from setting up your team mate and scoring that running the entire pitch and scoring yourself. But it's lacking that buzz you can get from a 10 vs 10 club match with your game history tracked and recorded and your own clubs win loss records.

 

[hanakuka]

oh ok i see

 

[Northzzz]

Edit - Northzzz Press R2 instead of the shoulder buttons and the ball wont be kicked ahead of you. Alternatively, if the player has the Quick-Scissor Dribble Player Card, then R2 produces the stepovers, quickly and close within his person. Ala Ronaldo.

That is actually really helpful thanks. I agree with your other points about the trick system.

I hope all this talk of being able to map your own tricks for PES 2011 isn't going to wind up with a similar style to the current FIFA style one. It's nice that you can do tricks on FIFA but they really don't require enough skill to pull off and unlike PES don't give you any advantage at all. Konami still have the card feature for tricks so i just expect new tricks to be added (both basic and expert ones) and for the limit to continue in place which means that the basic players still won't have the option to do the expert tricks.

 

[romagnoli]

Um?? Tricks give you a big advantage in FIFA games! Don't know where you got that from. Maybe you aren't using them in the correct situations?

 

[jonneymendoza]

I think he means BAP 10 vs 10 'online'

Be a Legend offline is far superior to Fifa offline version of BAP. You get much more of a sense that you're playing out a real career that you have to work hard to maintain. Now if only they could add some intensives for signing higher paying contracts with teams that are on the same level as your current club ( Like giving you something to spend your money on... like maybe you can unlock extra animations and celebrations, tricks, kit options, create player hair styles and bits and bobs.) and giving us a reason and a reward to stay with a certain club for a number of years instead of jumping ship at every chance.

Be a legend online is alright, and it's nice that it rewards you for team play and racks up combos and other bits. It makes playing as a team and not being greedy worthwhile. You'll get more from setting up your team mate and scoring that running the entire pitch and scoring yourself. But it's lacking that buzz you can get from a 10 vs 10 club match with your game history tracked and recorded and your own clubs win loss records.

yup 10v10 i meant and yea its a mode PES desperately needs. You PES fans are truelly missing out on an amazing Game mode

 

[shorty alien]

While we are on the subject of the other football game I would like to offer my opinion as to where they go wrong, connection to the ball.

After being dissapointed for the 3rd time by PES, I spent, for the first time, a few hours playing FIFA. While I realised that it was going to feel different to PES and I had to get used to that to appreciate the game, no matter how much time I played something still felt wrong. When walking my dog later and thinking about things I came to the conclusion that the connection of my input to the ball was where the problem lay.

In PES I feel that my movement of the stick has a direct effect on the ball, as if the game puts me in the digital skin of the player and I am moving the ball. This is best demonstrated when you have a player with 90+ technique & dribble ability, every slight movement of the stick, when not running, will relate to a ball movement. A quick diagonal left and right will knock the ball from foot to foot, like you see in the beginning of the new Messi trailer.

FIFA on the other hand gives me a 3rd person connection to the ball, I am moving a character that has a ball at its feet. I move the stick, the character moves and as a secondary action he moves the ball. What you experience through your input is the weight of the player not the weight of the ball, this is what leads to people saying such things as "its like playing football on an ice rink" or "on the moon". It feels, in a way, that the game is not designed to be a football game but for instance what Grand Theft Auto might feel like if you could play football in it, your input controls the character and any contact with the enviroment is a result of that and therefore you are numb, you walk into someone you dont feel it... you dont feel the ball.

This, I think, is why alot of PES fans do not like the feel of FIFA games but as they do not give it enough time cant put their finger on exactly why it feels wrong.

The connection to the ball & the player stats that limit what sort of conncetion you will experience is what really sets PES apart, the problem recently is that it has become increasingly apparent that you can only move the ball through certain channels, its like a slot car and it makes the game feel very ridgid. If this has been removed I think that PES will be back to being awesome.

I agree, it is just one thing that sets PES apart though, there are obviously others. They expanded on this starting with PES 09's d-pad dribbling system, closely marking the inputs of the d-pad to player ball control. With 2010 and the 16 directions, it's even more apparent. PES's ball control is superb, it seems to simulate how players would take touches in real life and dribble. Together with the heavier, weighted ball physics and the player stats it surpasses FIFA easily. FIFa's dribbling is hurried and unrealistic, even with 360 movement.

 

[YoungGun_UK]

I love FIFA's dribbling and trick system, combined their brilliant, especially when used in full fluit with the likes of Ronaldo and Kaka who actually make your opponent worried when getting run at. What PES needs to do is give each player that "card" trick mapped for each individual otherwise its a brilliant system.

 

[shorty alien]

Excellent points Jimmy, I'll weigh in with my 2 cents as well:
Once people can manage to get past the outdated rigid animations, they'll see with extended play that PES is a far deeper, richly rewarding football game than FIFA; the latter's gloss and animations hide a deeply flawed game that doesn't play anything like real football.

I already think PES 2010 was the best version, if they just stuck a new animation system to that I'd be more than happy



FIFA is full of holes and does not represent real football. Don't let the flashy graphics and animations fool you.

4 core specific reasons why it does not match up to PES:

AI and tactics - FIFA's AI is very poor, the movement of the players in general and the defense. There is no midfield. Pressin and physical jostling are overdone. Most games descend into through ball, 1 on 1 and score, whereas in PES I can score a million different types of goals, the satisfaction of scoring is unrivaled. PES' players position themselves better, make better runs and behave like football players should behave. Of course both games can be exploited but PES is better. I can set up my team to play anyway I want with all the tactical options in the menus, the sliders actually make a difference, the man marking and player index's all work and have an effect on the mentality and types of runs players make. FIFA has limited effect because the AI is so poor.

Player individuality and stat based gameplay - This is what PES is known for, I can hardly feel differences in FIFA players whether playing on assisted, semi or manual.

Ball physics - PES has heavy, weighted and realistic ball physics. FIFA feels like you are kicking a balloon.

Ball control, first touch, dribbling system - The combination of ball physics, player stats, the d-pad dribbling system introduced in PES 09 all make the ball control realistic. A lot of people think it's sluggish, its not. It's simulating how players would take touches to set themselves up for shots or to bring the ball under control. Even in 16 directions it is still better than FIFA's hurried style of dribbling, the 360 movement does not compensate for this. PES is more realistic in this sense.

Obviously personal opinion but if you delve deep and ignore the animations, the depth of PES is still there to see. For me 2010 is the best version, even better than the PS2 versions 0_o (I know that sounds like sacrilege). With 2011, I think people will go back to 2010 and see what Konami were trying to achieve, and realize it was a lot better than they gave it credit for.

 

[Lami]

I love FIFA's dribbling and trick system, combined their brilliant, especially when used in full fluit with the likes of Ronaldo and Kaka who actually make your opponent worried when getting run at. What PES needs to do is give each player that "card" trick mapped for each individual otherwise its a brilliant system.

I wouldn't say Fifa has got the dribbling right imo. It feels wrong.

 

[Jamezinho]

Anyone know of a potential date for news?

As I understand, PSM3 have a preview feature in next month's issue, which I believe is out on the 3rd of June. The embargo will probably be lifted about the same time, but you never know, there may be some leaks or early info.

Less than 3 weeks to go!

 

[romagnoli]

I wouldn't say Fifa has got the dribbling right imo. It feels wrong.

FIFA hasn't; WC2010 is a lot closer.

An awful lot of people (e.g. shorty allen) don't seem to realise how to dribble in the EA titles - particularly those coming from PES. The shoulder buttons, L2 and R2, are utterly vital for controlling speed. I only really grasped this idea as a seasoned PES player when I got into Clubs. PES is a lot more simplistic in this regard. It's perhaps a little too complex in FIFA, if anything, though maybe it isn't if you hadn't been playing PES for more than a decade.

I'd have thought both titles will have the hype machines up to 11 in time for E3.

 

[jonneymendoza]

I wouldn't say Fifa has got the dribbling right imo. It feels wrong.

it is wrong. unresponsiveness.

 

[Northzzz]

Um?? Tricks give you a big advantage in FIFA games! Don't know where you got that from. Maybe you aren't using them in the correct situations?

Really?

Let's say i do a trick that push the ball left or right, i find it no more effective than say if i'd have just ran with the ball there. Hmm i don't know if iam playing against an opponent who is hammering pressure and secondary pressure i'll probably get tackled, like step overs for instance there's no need to stand off your man. Just run into him and tackle, it works vice versa when i'm doing the defending.

I won't bang on about it if tricks work for you than you're doing something i am not.

 

[tc811]

FIFA is full of holes and does not represent real football. Don't let the flashy graphics and animations fool you.

4 core specific reasons why it does not match up to PES:

AI and tactics - FIFA's AI is very poor, the movement of the players in general and the defense. There is no midfield. Pressin and physical jostling are overdone. Most games descend into through ball, 1 on 1 and score, whereas in PES I can score a million different types of goals, the satisfaction of scoring is unrivaled. PES' players position themselves better, make better runs and behave like football players should behave. Of course both games can be exploited but PES is better. I can set up my team to play anyway I want with all the tactical options in the menus, the sliders actually make a difference, the man marking and player index's all work and have an effect on the mentality and types of runs players make. FIFA has limited effect because the AI is so poor.

Player individuality and stat based gameplay - This is what PES is known for, I can hardly feel differences in FIFA players whether playing on assisted, semi or manual.

Ball physics - PES has heavy, weighted and realistic ball physics. FIFA feels like you are kicking a balloon.

Ball control, first touch, dribbling system - The combination of ball physics, player stats, the d-pad dribbling system introduced in PES 09 all make the ball control realistic. A lot of people think it's sluggish, its not. It's simulating how players would take touches to set themselves up for shots or to bring the ball under control. Even in 16 directions it is still better than FIFA's hurried style of dribbling, the 360 movement does not compensate for this. PES is more realistic in this sense.

Obviously personal opinion but if you delve deep and ignore the animations, the depth of PES is still there to see. For me 2010 is the best version, even better than the PS2 versions 0_o (I know that sounds like sacrilege). With 2011, I think people will go back to 2010 and see what Konami were trying to achieve, and realize it was a lot better than they gave it credit for.

This is a great post. After I played FIFA 10 and really took some time to learn PES 2010, I was playing football the way I thought FIFA was going to do it. Instead, PES really combines the simplicity of controls with depth of gameplay. It's a shame it took me so long to find out, because now I know for sure the PES team is on the right path with 2011. I truly believe people will understand the meaning of shorty alien's post when people stop playing FIFA and try to understand the 2010 approach to football.

Oh and if anyone is trying to separate FIFA and PES Jimmy's post does a great job yet again.