PES 2011 Discussion thread

Nick the passing bar is around the same place in FIFA, does it really bother you?

And like romagnoli says, there nothing about a power bar that have to take away individuality. Also I would claim there is much more difference in accuracy than difference in power of a pass between players. Anyone can pass hard, but everyone can't get the ball in the exact direction they are aiming (manual aim, stat based result).
 
Dont mind the power bar seems like a nice touch and i imagine by default passing and shooting with be semi-assisted much like the old iss games on the n64 with the manual modifier button giving you total control of through balls,long passes and crosses(if you wish),although stats will always be a factor,again look at the iss games on the n64 the evidence is there.In my mind theres nothing wrong with sports games having a visual indicator,most do now its a game,its just under the player rather then lower on the screen,what game doesnt have a HUD.Who knows konami might still give us the option to turn it off once we get the feel and weight hardwired into are brains,its early days.Lets be realistic we are still along way from reality its only this year that the mechanics of passing and shooting have changed,pes is hardly total realism.

What has blown my mind though and gives me massive confidence is the Inverse kinectics,if konami nail this,its going to be landmark as we will be able to time the exact point we hit the ball,so the the implications are huge,as well as giving every animation a very life like and unique quality as well as the ball.This will make a massive difference to goalkeepers and every kick or parry will be a true connection with the ball.Ea are already using this tech but in the hands of the konami boys,the mind boggles.Look at games like uncharted2 that use this tech.This is what i used to love about the iss/perfect striker games on the n64,they used a rather primitive but early form of inverse kinectics in which you could decide the exact point of contact with the ball producing different results like scuffing,elevation and how much you altered the tradjectory based on your players foot and body position,you could even hit the ball at different points on the bounce,hitting the sweet spot if you timed the contact perfectly.Its a whole new world and will give pes2011 and much needed layer of depth and make it multi dimensional.

This is where the future lies and for me ea hasnt tapped into the potential of inverse kinetics quite like konami will.

So much more confident about pes2011,really is sounding promising.
 
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Gab_ said:
Nick the passing bar is around the same place in FIFA, does it really bother you?

And like romagnoli says, there nothing about a power bar that have to take away individuality. Also I would claim there is much more difference in accuracy than difference in power of a pass between players. Anyone can pass hard, but everyone can't get the ball in the exact direction they are aiming (manual aim, stat based result).
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Yes it does, I know it may only be a small part but in my heart of hearts I'm wanting that "watching a real game" feel and look, it annoys me having to have the little colour marks above the players too but playing 2vAI it's needed and TBH I can't think of any other way to do it...;)

I know we are miles from that but I can but hope...
 
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Nick Cave said:
Yes it does, I know it may only be a small part but in my heart of hearts I'm wanting that "watching a real game" feel and look, it annoys me having to have the little colour marks above the players too but playing 2vAI it's needed and TBH I can't think of any other way to do it...;)

I know we a miles from that but I can but hope...
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I know what you mean. But since the bar fills up the same speed for everyone it should be possible to just hide it after you've learned the speed it fills up. I hope they give us that option.
 
It's not a big thing I'd just like it to look like a HD Sky TV game...:D

The one thing I'd love to see and TBH I was hoping the move to next gen power would give us, is real player interaction with the playing surface; skid marks, studs cutting up the turf, proper implementation of dirt on players and kits, slides across the lines smudging etc...

I know each game has bigger issues but to me these things matter...

We seem to be miles from anything like this and I can't understand it, seeing how this is the largest sport on the planet and yet the next gen/PC titles seem to be lagging behind other smaller sports games...
 
I'd be extremely surprised if shooting is semi assisted. It doesn't seem like anything has been changed about how shooting works.

The shots of the game in action (such as the one around 4.12 or so, off the top of my head) looks quite a lot like PES2010 as far as uncomfortable looking animations and body stances go - maybe it's time Konami moved the mocap studio out of the shed and into a large room?

I also wonder how much of that tactical stuff about zonal marking etc is new to 2011, rather than being shown for the first time. I'd wager it's the latter (impressive as it is).

Time will tell what the final product is like but I can definitely see myself playing this PES a lot more than the last three.



Edit: Nick, I think the problem is that what is going on behind the scenes has increased dramatically. There just isn't the spare resource for things like divots. It's also why talk of Euphoria engines always makes me smile - it's just not possible to put into such complex games while still getting great online experiences and AI that is remotely competent. I can see Euphoria making it into the next generation of footy games, but then it depends on what advances are made with AI. I remember EA talking a lot about how in future gens the AI will be on a per player basis, as if you're playing a 10 v 10 game. Currently that isn't the case on either game.
 
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zeemeister said:
Ooh nice video the net reacts nicely pity about the keeper staying rooted that way. He should be rushing out to close the angle.
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It's on a low difficulty for demonstration purposes, you can tell. Look how the defender doesn't sprint to try and catch the striker.
 
romagnoli said:
I'd be extremely surprised if shooting is semi assisted. It doesn't seem like anything has been changed about how shooting works.

The shots of the game in action (such as the one around 4.12 or so, off the top of my head) looks quite a lot like PES2010 as far as uncomfortable looking animations and body stances go - maybe it's time Konami moved the mocap studio out of the shed and into a large room?

I also wonder how much of that tactical stuff about zonal marking etc is new to 2011, rather than being shown for the first time. I'd wager it's the latter (impressive as it is).

Time will tell what the final product is like but I can definitely see myself playing this PES a lot more than the last three.



Edit: Nick, I think the problem is that what is going on behind the scenes has increased dramatically. There just isn't the spare resource for things like divots. It's also why talk of Euphoria engines always makes me smile - it's just not possible to put into such complex games while still getting great online experiences and AI that is remotely competent. I can see Euphoria making it into the next generation of footy games, but then it depends on what advances are made with AI. I remember EA talking a lot about how in future gens the AI will be on a per player basis, as if you're playing a 10 v 10 game. Currently that isn't the case on either game.
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I think its important to remember that pes2011 isnt a completely rebuilt game from scratch,so naturally in those rather poor gameplay vids your going to see elements of last years game in there still(although that doesnt mean the final product will be very different),much as ea tech is just a evolution of the engine used in fifa07.For me pes2010 is the simple base of something far greater allowing a solid framework and building block to be layered and taken to another level,youve got to start somewhere.

As for euphoria i feel its a little overated and while sounding fantastic on paper and in tech videos theres not really a telling example of how it works in theory physically within a sports game yet.Look at the havok engine it sounded fantastic and looked fantastic in tech videos but the reality is very different.

It always boils down to the abilty of the developer to have the skill to maximise its potential and where they take it.Look at valve for example with halflife2 being a cracking example of how to best use havok physics.
 
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I liked that video, but i noticed that the sprinting with the ball animation (that all were praying to change) is still very similiar to 2010 which means very bad. 1:06-1:07. He still looks like running chicken.
The rest is great, especially jostling.
 
Expander said:
I think its important to remember that pes2011 isnt a completely rebuilt game from scratch,so naturally in those rather poor gameplay vids your going to see elements of last years game in there still(although that doesnt mean the final product will be very different),much as ea tech is just a evolution of the engine used in fifa07.For me pes2010 is the simple base of something far greater allowing a solid framework and building block to be layered and taken to another level,youve got to start somewhere.
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The running animations and the general body stances of players aren't the sorts of things that you expect to be carried across from a game with some of the most grotesquely bad animations and body stances this side of the horror genre, not when you're trying to completely revamp that side of the game. I do have a feeling it's a result of the person tey're mocapping, combined with the inability to mocap him sprinting (unless they're doing it on a treadmill, which wouldn't be as desirable as capping him while sprinting of his own accord).
 
Nick Cave said:
However well it works, or not! I don't like having it below the player on screen, if it's stuck there it will get some getting used to...
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I agree with Nick, I'd rather not have any graphical intrusions on the pitch. I'm ok with the radar and player name/stamina/tactics bars being tucked away at the bottom, but not so keen on rainbows popping up all over the pitch.

Knowing Konami they will give us an option to turn it off or maybe even an opacity setting to make it almost see-through.
 
romagnoli said:
The running animations and the general body stances of players aren't the sorts of things that you expect to be carried across from a game with some of the most grotesquely bad animations and body stances this side of the horror genre, not when you're trying to completely revamp that side of the game. I do have a feeling it's a result of the person tey're mocapping, combined with the inability to mocap him sprinting (unless they're doing it on a treadmill, which wouldn't be as desirable as capping him while sprinting of his own accord).
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Agreed,but if the games not finished and some of the older animations havent been replaced fully or layered better,your still going to have some of the old ones in there looking wooden.Game development doesnt work by gutting everything its a transitional process,which you can apply to the goalkeepers and ball shooting physics.Fifas animation has become smoother and smoother because more frames have been added to the pre-existing ones and the transition of how they dove tail into each other.Its not like pes2010 is all bad theres still some pretty clever stuff in there and very realistic player motions.

Gauging from what i can see in those vids the goalkeepers and a few other things havent even been changed yet.

Lets wait and judge,im as sceptical as the next man but lets not judge early code.
 
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The return of the hexagon!:WORSHIP:

Now Konami needs to get rid of the overall rating, but looking at the screenshot it says ''80'' below Sneijder's name in the bottom left.
 
Jamezinho said:
I agree with Nick, I'd rather not have any graphical intrusions on the pitch. I'm ok with the radar and player name/stamina/tactics bars being tucked away at the bottom, but not so keen on rainbows popping up all over the pitch.

Knowing Konami they will give us an option to turn it off or maybe even an opacity setting to make it almost see-through.
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Good point,but your only going to ever have one power bar at any point in time that appears when you press the relevant button and vanishes after the balls struck(and im sure if your not the ball carrier and hit the shoot,long pass,through ball button it wont appear),its not like theres 22 power bars on screen all the time,only one player can ever kick the ball,theres no tackling bar.Im with you guys i prefer nothing but can understand its logic and greater context because going into the red will probably impact the accuracy with it giving you a greater idea of were the power sweet spot is(with different players having different power ratios),otherwise we would be under or overhitting everything.It also means you have to adapt the power based on your body or foot position so the use of the power bar is always changing,so theres no one variable,its clever stuff when you think about it.

For me this is about konami taking something thats limited in fifa and pes at the moment and creating something quite subtle and clever.
 
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Expander said:
Good point,but your only going to ever have one power bar at any point in time that vanishes after the balls struck(and im sure if your not the ball carrier and hit shoot it wont appear),its not like theres 22 power bars on screen all the time,only one player can ever kick the ball,theres no tackling bar.
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Yeah it's only the one on screen at anytime which is no big deal, but I can see how it could annoy people that want a broadcast style of presentation with no icons appearing around players. I hope that Konami give us the option of putting the power bar above the player names just like it is now when you take a free kick.
 
Jamezinho said:
The return of the hexagon!:WORSHIP:

Now Konami needs to get rid of the overall rating, but looking at the screenshot it says ''80'' below Sneijder's name in the bottom left.
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I read somewhere that they are not going to do that, and that overall rating is here to stay.

I don't like it either, but that's because I'm not sure how it works in conjunction with the actual stats when the player is used in the wrong position.
I think this is a crucial matter, and I've always wanted from PES a way to penalize those who make up unrealistic formations with a midfield like Messi-Kakà-Iniesta-Ronaldo. A team with such a line-up HAS to be destined to fail, once on the field. But I'm not sure if the overall rating drop corresponds to a drop in stats (and if yes, which ones?).

My solution would be to have those players constantly end up out of position. So that if you put Messi as a side midfielder, you would find yourself with the right midfield area always uncovered because Messi is disregarding your position order and is always in attack. But that's hard to implement well.
 
So nice to see everyone optimistic for once. Its taken too many years. Long may it continue! :)
 
Yep. Took them quite a while but thankfully they're finally there. Hopefully they've nailed it.

Fifa might have started next-gen with '07 but tbh it never felt right for me. Animations look very good and all but it never felt right, always too light. I'm hoping Konami have done it the right way.
 
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Expander said:
Agreed,but if the games not finished and some of the older animations havent been replaced fully or layered better,your still going to have some of the old ones in there looking wooden.Game development doesnt work by gutting everything its a transitional process,which you can apply to the goalkeepers and ball shooting physics.Fifas animation has become smoother and smoother because more frames have been added to the pre-existing ones and the transition of how they dove tail into each other.Its not like pes2010 is all bad theres still some pretty clever stuff in there and very realistic player motions.

Gauging from what i can see in those vids the goalkeepers and a few other things havent even been changed yet.

Lets wait and judge,im as sceptical as the next man but lets not judge early code.
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I don't think anyone would even begin to buy the idea that running and standing would be worked into the game at a later stage. I thought about pointing this out in my previous post but decided against doing so because I thought this was a given.

FIFA does not just look good because of animation transition and inverse kinematics making sure the player actually connects with the ball. It looks good because the animations themselves are realistic, and the players move like real players. PES on the next gen systems in particular looks like it is mocapping someone with very distinctive, often weird, body movement. It'd be like mocapping Gabriel Obertan and giving that animation set to everyone.

I don't mean to overplay this as I'm not saying that it's a gamebreaker, but I couldn't leave well enough alone.
 
romagnoli said:
I don't think anyone would even begin to buy the idea that running and standing would be worked into the game at a later stage. I thought about pointing this out in my previous post but decided against doing so because I thought this was a given.

FIFA does not just look good because of animation transition and inverse kinematics making sure the player actually connects with the ball. It looks good because the animations themselves are realistic, and the players move like real players. PES on the next gen systems in particular looks like it is mocapping someone with very distinctive, often weird, body movement. It'd be like mocapping Gabriel Obertan and giving that animation set to everyone.

I don't mean to overplay this as I'm not saying that it's a gamebreaker, but I couldn't leave well enough alone.
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I disagree,inverse kinetics make a massive difference to animation as it renders the players heads and limbs at different positions and the way the players strike the ball based on there body position and the position of the ball,plus if you slow fifas animation down in replays and get close up its still robotic with the volume of frames per second giving it a much smoother look.If you look closely from afar you can still see the animation transitions(stop,start)in fifa and how canned it is.

As far as modelling its a question of taste,i personally still think konami get player modelling better then ea,arched backs and stances are easy to address and the reason the players move like they do in pes2010 and older pes games is because of the limitations of movement,if you free this up you have to capture the animations to accommodate this movement.
 
JimboPL said:
I liked that video, but i noticed that the sprinting with the ball animation (that all were praying to change) is still very similiar to 2010 which means very bad. 1:06-1:07. He still looks like running chicken.
The rest is great, especially jostling.
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I don't think it looks anything like PES 2010. It doesn't look perfect, but it's nothing like PES 2010. On PES 2010 every player spread their legs too much, bend their knees too much, everything too much. The only thing wrong with the animation you are talking about is the position of the upper body that seems a bit strange, arms seem to be moving too fast for the leg movement and they are too close to the body. But look at the rest of the players, not just there but also on the jostling part in PES 2011. They are running like human beings.
 
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IK tweaks existing animations to better suit each individual case, but if the initial animations are completely off then it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. You can't polish a turd. Not saying PES 2011 is that bad, but 2010 was. You couldn't just add IK to PES 2010 and call that a sufficient improvement, but as far as running is concerned that may be where Konami have left things, rather than mocapping a more typical athlete running. Running, and standing, are not things you fix as you go. They're the most pivotal points from which you branch off into other animation sets. What we see there is what will be in the final game.
 
romagnoli said:
IK tweaks existing animations to better suit each individual case, but if the initial animations are completely off then it doesn't make a blind bit of difference. You can't polish a turd. Not saying PES 2011 is that bad, but 2010 was. You couldn't just add IK to PES 2010 and call that a sufficient improvement, but as far as running is concerned that may be where Konami have left things, rather than mocapping a more typical athlete running. Running, and standing, are not things you fix as you go. They're the most pivotal points from which you branch off into other animation sets. What we see there is what will be in the final game.
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You're about right, but surely we haven't seen enough?
 
Here's an idea:

Perhaps Konami have yet to implement the full set of new animations yet?

I don't wish to sound like a particular owner of another PES website, but PSM3 and all the other journos went to see PES2011 a few weeks back. That was mid-May, five months before the game is due to be released. Still plenty of time for improvement.

Now I'm not saying the animations are going to be perfect in PES2011, but from the small gameplay clips seen so far it's quite apparent that new animations are mixed in with the old at this stage. Konami have said that there's a thousand new animations in this game. Add that to IK and I'm sure PES2011 will move quite nicely indeed.

I'm waiting for Gamescom before passing too much judgement on the animations, but if everything ends up looking as good as the jostling in the recent video then we have nothing to worry about.
 
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