PES 2011 Discussion thread

[Mana Cerace]

I definitely consider brand new animations, new defensive AI and 360 degree passing and movement 'radical changes'.

Then again that might just be me...

Don't get me wrong, I do too, with every fibre of my being. On paper, they definitely look like radical changes. But with PES... I don't know, you always have this distinct feeling, when you try it for the first time, that whatever new improvement they implemented it still feel like old dynamics and structure.

Last year we got excited over 360° control, it turns out it was basically irrelevant. Ok, this year they promise to have fully integrated it and expanded it, but we've been burnt before.

 

[Jess]

I can understand that, but last year they didn't make a big song and dance about 360° control. In the golden age of PES you usually had to play a few matches to really get a distinct feel of the latest game, and when you did you thought 'wow, this game is so much better than the last one'. Given the new control system I'm expecting a massive difference right from the off.

 

[romagnoli]

I know what your saying and remember i am a pes fan to that has experienced every WE and PES game.

Your missing my point which is the overall nucleaus was better and while we/pes improved the short pass system it stripped away all the other elements including freedom of movement and control.

Whats interesting is how ea have almost cloned this series to the letter in a next generation form and people now prefer this system in which we the user have precise,subtle control of the players and ball as well as full directional control.

Again pes2010 is this game fundamentally but it lacks this games freedom,animation,subtelty and depth and while im not saying lets just bring this game wholesale over across to the current platforms,alot of what was embodied back then was superior to pes in its current form.

I love pes but in alot of ways its a parody of what real football represents which is the joy of having tight player control and choice in which you freely interact with the game.Pes makes you play by its rules and doesnt give you the freedom to play it on your own terms how you want to,using a ai system that makes you a passenger in which you have to tune into how its flows,if you fight against it and try to force your own playing style it doesnt work.

Its about marrying all that is good about pes with this series,then and only then will konami have a superior game to fifa.

Lets be realistic fifas 17 million sales speaks volumes and the fact that many pes fans and diehards now prefer fifas system speaks for itself.

Considering both seabass and greyhound both worked on this series do you not think they cant see how ea have copied what they did back then and how fifa has recieved both universal praise from the media and football fans alike.

Im not going on a pro fifa rant because i prefer konamis realism but i also love the freedom and levels of control both fifa10 and FWC give me,something that i know pes2011 will be adopting.

I agree with the principle that PES is far too rigid, particularly in 2010. PES 5 and 6 managed to simulate the ability of players on the ball without forcing a 1-2 second control delay when dribbling. The counterarguments that PES 2010 is simulating how your player has to get himself aligned and composed to take a touch, or whatever that claim was, is nonsense. If anything it should be up to me to take the touch at the right time and to suffer consequences of some sort if I try to react too soon. The way Konami made PES 2010 balanced was, in essence, to break the game.

This idea that EA has cloned Perfect Striker, deliberately or otherwise, is way, way off. They may have similarities in certain areas (penalties to name just one!), but you're rather overplaying what they have in common. Similarly to when people go a bit funny about one game 'copying' the other when a new feature is announced, it's important to remember that all football games are trying to interpret football. There will unavoidably be some overlap, particularly as far as inevitable 'next-steps' like 360 dribbling and freer passing than PES (to my mind the ISS Pro to PES series is one of very few football interpretations I can recall that was as rigid as it was - I can't think of many footy games that didn't try to be freer in at least one or two ways) but there is a hell of a lot more to FIFA's improvement in quality than recreating Perfect Striker.

I completely disagree that the nucleus of Perfect Striker/ISS was better than that of PES, too. There was a hell of a lot wrong with ISS in comparison. Just look at those videos for crying out loud. It might be free, but it's still painful to look at and is in no way tempting to play (something that Football Kingdom does have over this).

 

[Nick Cave]

That's what I used to love with PES and WE, it was always familiar but always took a while to re-master...

 

[Expander]

I agree with the principle that PES is far too rigid, particularly in 2010. PES 5 and 6 managed to simulate the ability of players on the ball without forcing a 1-2 second control delay when dribbling. The counterarguments that PES 2010 is simulating how your player has to get himself aligned and composed to take a touch, or whatever that claim was, is nonsense. If anything it should be up to me to take the touch at the right time and to suffer consequences of some sort if I try to react too soon. The way Konami made PES 2010 balanced was, in essence, to break the game.

This idea that EA has cloned Perfect Striker, deliberately or otherwise, is way, way off. They may have similarities in certain areas (penalties to name just one!), but you're rather overplaying what they have in common. Similarly to when people go a bit funny about one game 'copying' the other when a new feature is announced, it's important to remember that all football games are trying to interpret football. There will unavoidably be some overlap, particularly as far as inevitable 'next-steps' like 360 dribbling and freer passing than PES (to my mind the ISS Pro to PES series is one of very few football interpretations I can recall that was as rigid as it was - I can't think of many footy games that didn't try to be freer in at least one or two ways) but there is a hell of a lot more to FIFA's improvement in quality than recreating Perfect Striker.

I completely disagree that the nucleus of Perfect Striker/ISS was better than that of PES, too. There was a hell of a lot wrong with ISS in comparison. Just look at those videos for crying out loud. It might be free, but it's still painful to look at and is in no way tempting to play (something that Football Kingdom does have over this).

In essence your right,plus if those games held up so well in the gameplay department i would still be playing them today.

Again i think youve missed my point which tends to happen on various sites when i tend to mention this games,being,these games gave you total control of everything,from the amount of elevation you could put on the ball right through to the very footsteps of your player encompassing everything a real pro can do with a ball which included manual control of one-twos,ball direction and placement,spin be it back,top and side,tricks,inertia in your movement,heading.These games also used true analog control unlike pes which has always been a d-pad game with d-pad mechanics which as we have discussed previously is part of its problem and limits what pes productions can ultimetly do.

Not only the above but they also allowed you to go toe to toe with any outfield player and the satisfaction and enjoyment came from the fact that you were doing it,so you could directly place your shots,crosses,long passes and short passes,influencing the amount of power with ai that had a awareness off the ball that i havent experienced in any pes game to this day and that includes pes5/6.

Maybe im old school coming from a time when games were based more on skill and reaction rather then pandering to the masses and simplifying the basics which in my mind pes has always done.

Back to fifa,now prior to this year i had never played or experienced a fifa game but found due to my knowledge and expertise of the iss/perfect striker series,that i could with ease exert alot of my old skills on this game and felt quite at home on worldclass in the un-assisted settings and found the movement and timing values of the players un-cannily similiar which tells its own story and questions your argument.Im also aware a number of the MAJOR A team that worked on the ISS/PERFECT STRIKER games now work for ea which is even more enlightening but thats another story.

Theres no need for statements like crying out loud ive worked in the games industry for over 20 years as a programmer and know what im talking about and dont view the past with some blinkered rose tinted nostalgia,my knowledge grants me the luxury of seeing what lies underneath the ILLUSION that programming can conjure up for the un-trained and wouldnt make short sighted or flawed arguments with out a extensive knowledge to base them on.

What do people really want more pes5/6,weve had that and although less fluid pes2010 is just a next gen version of pes5/6 that exposes its limitations and flaws more then the ps2 ever did and if it wasnt for ea and fifa10,or if fifa hadnt made the strides over the course of the last 4 years that they have,people wouldnt be questioning the current movement or animation system in pes2010 or its previous iterations.

This is why i find it pretty hypercritical that people are requesting facets in pes that fifa now has but then make statements like i dont want pes to be like fifa,when if all truth be told PESs individuality system is a coding illusion that weakens the opposition if one player is better then the other,theres nothing sophisticated or high tech about it,using basic parameters.Everyones convinced them self thats its more then it is when its more a trick of the mind and uses concepts that date back over 20 years.The reality is people have become lazy,they dont want to think for themselfs and want a game that does all the thinking and calculations for them which for me isnt football,with football being a game that embrasses control,freedom and kicking a inflated sphere of air around,with the ball being the unpredictable factor not some cheap scripting system.

 

[romagnoli]

There's a lot wrong with that post Expander, chiefly the last paragraph which is presumably as patronising as it is out of mistaking my 'for crying out loud' as aimed at you rather than the game. Also the coincidence between people working on defunct footy games now working on one of the two still being made. But I'm off now so Ill leave it there.

 

[Northzzz]

The reality is people have become lazy,they dont want to think for themselfs and want a game that does all the thinking and calculations for them which for me isnt football,with football being a game that embrasses control,freedom and kicking a inflated sphere of air around,with the ball being the unpredictable factor not some cheap scripting system.

I'd agree with that, maybe for some other reasons though.

I think it is a probably an attribute that goes hand in hand with the philosophy of gaming on this generation of consoles. People want things that look nice and play easy and don't ask too much of them (or as you put it, things that don't embarass them). I don't think it's just PES or football games, i believe that it is just the accepted method of games in general, gaming is now more mainstream than ever before. I certainly put the success of FIFA down to these factors. I don't even think that FIFA's philosophy is that much different from it's old-gen, and supposedly less stellar, titles but now supposedly it is really good? Give me a break, it's so forgiving and requires no skill. Football is not forgiving. It does however succeed vastly because it has created this illusion of grandeur because it is so smooth.

I think that the people on here do generally wish for PES to exhibit more freedom but there is no doubt that this would make the game harder. PES cannot possibly appeal to the mainstream with a more unforgiving game. I wouldn't say that PES was this perfect game despite being more unforgiving than say FIFA. It is still far too easy and it really doesn't look like a good game. Despite this i wouldn't argue that it didn't play like a good game because it still has the essence of being this unpredictable football game at times.

I enjoy the limitations that make the game feel like the unpredictable and imperfect football style that you speak of. Even things like reaction times which everybody but me has a problem with. It sounds like i'm blowing PES' trumpet but i'm really not. It's only a 7/10 game at best.

I hope that PES really goes to it's roots because at the end of the day it is just a game but one that was built on an essence of football which is something that other football games (not just FIFA) have failed to produce. I do have to question whether it will and if it can actually afford to though. If it does then it'll only be appealing to it's true fans and not the people who moved over to the FIFA style because they liked that better. I mean how many of the true fans are left? Will people be willing to come back to a more unforgiving game?

 

[Expander]

There's a lot wrong with that post Expander, chiefly the last paragraph which is presumably as patronising as it is out of mistaking my 'for crying out loud' as aimed at you rather than the game. Also the coincidence between people working on defunct footy games now working on one of the two still being made. But I'm off now so Ill leave it there.

Programing games is like artists painting,even if they use a different colour palette or different materials you can always tell its a piece of art by that individual,just like you can tell a dhali from any other abstract artist.

This isnt about winning or loosing its about being truthfull with the facts and expressing a opinion,im not like some just repeating others arguments from different sites or saying the same thing as everybody else,although it remains my opinion which anyone is welcome to question including yourself and i wont take offense.

Im just not taking this one dimensional line that pes is the holy grail although i do appreciate it strenghths,however,thats not to say its in need of some wholesale changes,times have changed and pes5/6 have become old hat with a competitor thats currently superseeding pes,so going backwards is commercial suicide.

Games developers are in the business of making money,so the changes you will see this year arent for the fans or to please the ps2 fanbase thats clever pr and marketing,konami are making the changes they are because pes2010s sales where awful,which has forced them to invest in new tech so they can match ea and make pes a force on larger scale hopefully generating the kind of sales ea are currently enjoying.Why do you think the eurogamer amongst others(a pro fifa site)was invited to see the game first,if we the fans were the most important factor in the equation we would all have a demo of the beta code.

That doesnt mean konami arent still the best at what they do there still the dream makers the makers of dreams and im convinced they will return to form this year.

 

[Expander]

I'd agree with that, maybe for some other reasons though.

I think it is a probably an attribute that goes hand in hand with the philosophy of gaming on this generation of consoles. People want things that look nice and play easy and don't ask too much of them (or as you put it, things that don't embarass them). I don't think it's just PES or football games, i believe that it is just the accepted method of games in general, gaming is now more mainstream than ever before. I certainly put the success of FIFA down to these factors. I don't even think that FIFA's philosophy is that much different from it's old-gen, and supposedly less stellar, titles but now supposedly it is really good? Give me a break, it's so forgiving and requires no skill. Football is not forgiving. It does however succeed vastly because it has created this illusion of grandeur because it is so smooth.

I think that the people on here do generally wish for PES to exhibit more freedom but there is no doubt that this would make the game harder. PES cannot possibly appeal to the mainstream with a more unforgiving game. I wouldn't say that PES was this perfect game despite being more unforgiving than say FIFA. It is still far too easy and it really doesn't look like a good game. Despite this i wouldn't argue that it didn't play like a good game because it still has the essence of being this unpredictable football game at times.

I enjoy the limitations that make the game feel like the unpredictable and imperfect football style that you speak of. Even things like reaction times which everybody but me has a problem with. It sounds like i'm blowing PES' trumpet but i'm really not. It's only a 7/10 game at best.

I hope that PES really goes to it's roots because at the end of the day it is just a game but one that was built on an essence of football which is something that other football games (not just FIFA) have failed to produce. I do have to question whether it will and if it can actually afford to though. If it does then it'll only be appealing to it's true fans and not the people who moved over to the FIFA style because they liked that better. I mean how many of the true fans are left? Will people be willing to come back to a more unforgiving game?

Good point,i dont think it will be more unforgiving,van persie has probably never played fifa on a un-assisted level so probably struggled with pes2011 as hes only used to pes or fifa in assisted.

One thing though,i personally(although i wouldnt say fifa has everything i want in a football game)find fifa10 and fwc more challenging in veteran then both pes/we on top player or superstar and im a pretty skilled gamer and quite hot on fifa.

For me pes is to easy now i rarely concede and on we2010 challenge of the blue samuri i can pretty much smash it which is probably more me exploiting the weaknesses of the ai.Im a pes man first and foremost but i think fifa gets a bad press from hardcore pes fans i dont think its as bad as some imply and has subtle player individuality,its just a case of many jumping on the band wagon with even the ai being a lot smarter then some imply.Of course your always going to get the assisted crowd but atleast with fifa the skilled can stop them playing its not like pes which weakens you when your ahead,although there both scripted its just PESs scriptings worse.

Having solid control of the ball and players is a good thing in a game its just important from a development point of view to have layers so the skilled can take it to another level and the games balanced based on skill.

 

[Ronaldinho_23]

es una tonteria esperar que un juego de ps3, que tiene nosecuantos millones de poligonos mas, el cual es mas dificil de programar, se pueda asemejar a un juego de playstation2, que iba en 8 direcciones que habia llegado a su limite de programacion, y que tenia muchos menos comandos, efectos de luces, etc..

 

[Lami]

es una tonteria esperar que un juego de ps3, que tiene nosecuantos millones de poligonos mas, el cual es mas dificil de programar, se pueda asemejar a un juego de playstation2, que iba en 8 direcciones que habia llegado a su limite de programacion, y que tenia muchos menos comandos, efectos de luces, etc..

I agree. PS2 had its limits and PS3 must be used to it's maximum as well.

 

[Andy]

Yes I did that questionnaire/survey as well. Can't remember what was in it though..

Hi Lami,following up on yesterdays post,this is the article that i saw and then got me thinking about the stadiums.....

edit-its #8 in the list btw.

 

[Lami]

Ah thanks for posting it here buzzy. Many suggestions in there as well. I would love them to do something about a stadium editor but I'm wondering if the marked ones in there are the only ones making it in 2011...

 

[delpinsky]

How much I'd pay for an editor (external?) by Konami to "expand" the number of slot for players, teams and leagues. So we can not only create new Leagues but also connect them in the way for example, FIFA "modders made" editor does, to create lower leagues or just new 1st divisions and connect them to Euro Cups in Master League.

As a consequence, the result should be a kitserver-like "decompressed folder" creation.

I guess it's an impossible dream this one, as already now, to create new Leagues for PES2010 looks like a moon landing, for us PES fans, a great goal!

If Konami can't give us more leagues... at least they could give us the chance to create new....
I wonder why they can't simply add fake ones so we can just rename them.

If they gave us for example 20 or more new "fake" leagues.. I guess they would make happy tons of people, ready to "mod" them all.

 

[_anderson]

How much I'd pay for an editor (external?) by Konami to "expand" the number of slot for players, teams and leagues. So we can not only create new Leagues but also connect them in the way for example, FIFA "modders made" editor does, to create lower leagues or just new 1st divisions and connect them to Euro Cups in Master League.

As a consequence, the result should be a kitserver-like "decompressed folder" creation.

I guess it's an impossible dream this one, as already now, to create new Leagues for PES2010 looks like a moon landing, for us PES fans, a great goal!

If Konami can't give us more leagues... at least they could give us the chance to create new....
I wonder why they can't simply add fake ones so we can just rename them.

If they gave us for example 20 or more new "fake" leagues.. I guess they would make happy tons of people, ready to "mod" them all.

Well according to the Mexican magazine, there is a "surprise" on the Editing Mode. But I doubt it's the ability to create leagues.
First they say (through Jon Murphy) that edit mode is expanded, and the magazine says there is a surprise they didn't want to tell the magazines.

Probably the ability to edit something else more? Stadiums? Boots?

 

[romagnoli]

Just sticking to a couple of points here since I'm meant to be going to bed now!

Programing games is like artists painting,even if they use a different colour palette or different materials you can always tell its a piece of art by that individual,just like you can tell a dhali from any other abstract artist.

Except games programming is a collaborative work by several dozens of programmers, designers, artists, animators etc etc. Comparing the input of a few people who worked on an old football game (who weren't necessarily responsible for the aspects of Perfect Striker you think they lifted!) in a game like this is pretty far-fetched. They might chip in with ideas or suggestions but ultimately they don't get a big enough influence to lift a template from their old game and plunk it into a new, far higher budget title.

The movers and shakers for FIFA are people who grew up playing the PES series -I think Gary P said it was ISS PE2 that he first got utterly hooked to - with backgrounds in football management games. I've actually mentioned PS to Gary before and it seemed like he didn't know much about it. You could argue that, therefore, it'd be easy for the ex-PS devs to then sneak aspects of PS into FIFA, but the history of FIFA's improvements and the difference between FIFA and PS below the surface strongly suggests otherwise.

Why do you think the eurogamer amongst others(a pro fifa site)was invited to see the game first,if we the fans were the most important factor in the equation we would all have a demo of the beta code.

This bit is something that I saw first on WENB, and it confuses me still. Who says Eurogamer is a pro-FIFA site? That tag implies that it is more inclined to praise FIFA over PES than your average site, and yet the general review scores are much a long the same lines:

PES 2010 (PS3): 78/100

FIFA 10 (PS3): 91/100

WC 2010 (PS3): 83/100

In which case surely all but a handful of sites could be deemed pro-FIFA?

Eurogamer scored 7, 9 and 8 respectively. It'd be a stretch to say that the 7 compared to '7.8' is indicative of an anti-PES stance, since Eurogamer make far fuller use of their scoring system than most review sites. A 7 is a decent game, as most people would say is true of a 78% given by most other sites. It's one of the weirder examples of Adamism in recent times, when he took Eurogamer being invited to a press event (so, one of many sites) to play PES 2011 as a sign that PES 2011 was going to be great. It's like when someone says 'revamped animations' and a handful of people instantly read this as PES implementing the Euphoria engine.


I think I've said this before but I don't mind the concept of assisted controls in PES themselves, but there needs to be room to play around and manipulate that assistance to give the game being played out more detail. I don't see assisted controls as that bad if the rest of the game is designed to be more sophisticated to suit. I fully agree that PES 2010 went about balancing the game in completely the wrong way and that the future of football games is inevitably going to involve far more freedom.

However I don't think that completely cutting us loose is the answer - not yet. As I said a page or two back I don't think humans can, en masse, handle analogue sticks precisely enough without some sort of visual aid. Also I don't think the AI is sophisticated enough to deal with it yet. Just typing my train of thought, and it may be bollocks, but part of me expects the AI to take a bit of a hit in a PES with significantly more freedom, especially in the unlikely event it does go full manual. It depends on how much Konami have used the assisted passing alleyways as a shortcut to boost defensive AI awareness.

 

[jameslv1986]

Just sticking to a couple of points here since I'm meant to be going to bed now!



Except games programming is a collaborative work by several dozens of programmers, designers, artists, animators etc etc. Comparing the input of a few people who worked on an old football game (who weren't necessarily responsible for the aspects of Perfect Striker you think they lifted!) in a game like this is pretty far-fetched. They might chip in with ideas or suggestions but ultimately they don't get a big enough influence to lift a template from their old game and plunk it into a new, far higher budget title.

The movers and shakers for FIFA are people who grew up playing the PES series -I think Gary P said it was ISS PE2 that he first got utterly hooked to - with backgrounds in football management games. I've actually mentioned PS to Gary before and it seemed like he didn't know much about it. You could argue that, therefore, it'd be easy for the ex-PS devs to then sneak aspects of PS into FIFA, but the history of FIFA's improvements and the difference between FIFA and PS below the surface strongly suggests otherwise.



This bit is something that I saw first on WENB, and it confuses me still. Who says Eurogamer is a pro-FIFA site? That tag implies that it is more inclined to praise FIFA over PES than your average site, and yet the general review scores are much a long the same lines:

PES 2010 (PS3): 78/100

FIFA 10 (PS3): 91/100

WC 2010 (PS3): 83/100

In which case surely all but a handful of sites could be deemed pro-FIFA?

Eurogamer scored 7, 9 and 8 respectively. It'd be a stretch to say that the 7 compared to '7.8' is indicative of an anti-PES stance, since Eurogamer make far fuller use of their scoring system than most review sites. A 7 is a decent game, as most people would say is true of a 78% given by most other sites. It's one of the weirder examples of Adamism in recent times, when he took Eurogamer being invited to a press event (so, one of many sites) to play PES 2011 as a sign that PES 2011 was going to be great. It's like when someone says 'revamped animations' and a handful of people instantly read this as PES implementing the Euphoria engine.


I think I've said this before but I don't mind the concept of assisted controls in PES themselves, but there needs to be room to play around and manipulate that assistance to give the game being played out more detail. I don't see assisted controls as that bad if the rest of the game is designed to be more sophisticated to suit. I fully agree that PES 2010 went about balancing the game in completely the wrong way and that the future of football games is inevitably going to involve far more freedom.

However I don't think that completely cutting us loose is the answer - not yet. As I said a page or two back I don't think humans can, en masse, handle analogue sticks precisely enough without some sort of visual aid. Also I don't think the AI is sophisticated enough to deal with it yet. Just typing my train of thought, and it may be bollocks, but part of me expects the AI to take a bit of a hit in a PES with significantly more freedom, especially in the unlikely event it does go full manual. It depends on how much Konami have used the assisted passing alleyways as a shortcut to boost defensive AI awareness.

i think cos Eurogamer italy gave fifa 10 100/100

 

[Nick Cave]

"Expand and improve ML"

Oh' my god, if they are looking to Football Manager for the way to go please god could this mean an end to fantasy league football and we finally, well I finally do, as nobody else seams to care about the crappy league system, get a proper full league structure...

 

[Searain]

If anything EA cloned Namco's Football Kingdom, which, for the record, was leaps and bounds better than any Perfect Striker.

Also, at the time the first Perfect Striker was released on N64 Major A/KCEO was way more relevant as development team within Konami than Seabass' squad.

He later stated in an interview to an italian magazine (Super Console) that they had always perceived Major A as their nemesis and thus tried their best to make a game that was as different as it could get, conceptually-wise, from the PS series.

In fact, the rivalry between the two developers was so intense that they didn't talk to each other at all and therefore never got to share anything even though they belonged to the same publisher.

 

[zeemeister]

Geez buzzy I tried to block out that article.

And no.6 most important improvement is.....(Drum roll)..... MORE INTERACTIVE CUTSCENES...that's right nevermind player movement, ball physics, proper ML league structures or collision detection...we need cutscenes. WTF!!

 

[Expander]

Just sticking to a couple of points here since I'm meant to be going to bed now!



Except games programming is a collaborative work by several dozens of programmers, designers, artists, animators etc etc. Comparing the input of a few people who worked on an old football game (who weren't necessarily responsible for the aspects of Perfect Striker you think they lifted!) in a game like this is pretty far-fetched. They might chip in with ideas or suggestions but ultimately they don't get a big enough influence to lift a template from their old game and plunk it into a new, far higher budget title.

The movers and shakers for FIFA are people who grew up playing the PES series -I think Gary P said it was ISS PE2 that he first got utterly hooked to - with backgrounds in football management games. I've actually mentioned PS to Gary before and it seemed like he didn't know much about it. You could argue that, therefore, it'd be easy for the ex-PS devs to then sneak aspects of PS into FIFA, but the history of FIFA's improvements and the difference between FIFA and PS below the surface strongly suggests otherwise.



This bit is something that I saw first on WENB, and it confuses me still. Who says Eurogamer is a pro-FIFA site? That tag implies that it is more inclined to praise FIFA over PES than your average site, and yet the general review scores are much a long the same lines:

PES 2010 (PS3): 78/100

FIFA 10 (PS3): 91/100

WC 2010 (PS3): 83/100

In which case surely all but a handful of sites could be deemed pro-FIFA?

Eurogamer scored 7, 9 and 8 respectively. It'd be a stretch to say that the 7 compared to '7.8' is indicative of an anti-PES stance, since Eurogamer make far fuller use of their scoring system than most review sites. A 7 is a decent game, as most people would say is true of a 78% given by most other sites. It's one of the weirder examples of Adamism in recent times, when he took Eurogamer being invited to a press event (so, one of many sites) to play PES 2011 as a sign that PES 2011 was going to be great. It's like when someone says 'revamped animations' and a handful of people instantly read this as PES implementing the Euphoria engine.


I think I've said this before but I don't mind the concept of assisted controls in PES themselves, but there needs to be room to play around and manipulate that assistance to give the game being played out more detail. I don't see assisted controls as that bad if the rest of the game is designed to be more sophisticated to suit. I fully agree that PES 2010 went about balancing the game in completely the wrong way and that the future of football games is inevitably going to involve far more freedom.

However I don't think that completely cutting us loose is the answer - not yet. As I said a page or two back I don't think humans can, en masse, handle analogue sticks precisely enough without some sort of visual aid. Also I don't think the AI is sophisticated enough to deal with it yet. Just typing my train of thought, and it may be bollocks, but part of me expects the AI to take a bit of a hit in a PES with significantly more freedom, especially in the unlikely event it does go full manual. It depends on how much Konami have used the assisted passing alleyways as a shortcut to boost defensive AI awareness.

A good post but you didnt have to bring adam from wenb into this,im much older then he is and have been a konami fan since NES hyper soccer and dont take his word as gospel as some do or are my opinions influenced by him.

As far as ai is concerned,the development community has had fantastc ai for over twenty years its just a case of dumbing it down and making it more falible and human otherwise its binery logic would be to superhuman.Look at games like halo which uses very sophisticated ai.

PESs problems are more linked to konami using older tech and just recycling the same game similiar to a music artist that has had one hit and just keeps remixing,theyve never really had any competition until the last 2 years,which has made pes productions lazy sitting on there laurels and not doing much with pes,using it as a cash cow and flogging a tired old game on 7 different formats without any real innovation.

Theres so much untapped potential in this genre that konami up till now are just not tapping into although ea are to a degree,however what they are doing is just taking konamis very own template and making it much better.Im not saying the wheel has to be re-invented but it can and should be much better.

Really enjoying the discussions on here,this has to be one of the best sites for intelligent thought provoking bloggers with a real maturiy and knowledge.

 

[Expander]

If anything EA cloned Namco's Football Kingdom, which, for the record, was leaps and bounds better than any Perfect Striker.

Also, at the time the first Perfect Striker was released on N64 Major A/KCEO was way more relevant as development team within Konami than Seabass' squad.

He later stated in an interview to an italian magazine (Super Console) that they had always perceived Major A as their nemesis and thus tried their best to make a game that was as different as it could get, conceptually-wise, from the PS series.

In fact, the rivalry between the two developers was so intense that they didn't talk to each other at all and therefore never got to share anything even though they belonged to the same publisher.

Perfect striker3 on the ps2 was a vastly superior game to perfect striker or ISS64.Each version evolved the formula with each iteration becoming more realistic with iss64,iss98 for example being much more arcade like then iss2000.The japanese versions(perfect striker)were superior to the european and american versions with more refinement and quicker speeds and perfect striker2 1999 n64 was the peak of the series on the n64 that even iss2000 on the n64 didnt quite match.The ball wasnt quite the free entity on the n64 versions as it was on the ps2 versions although it did stick to the players more then the first 5 versions of pes,unlike the next gen versions of pes/we which have all had very sticky ball physics unlike the earlier pes games(pes/2/3/4/5 for example).Pes/we on the ps2 freed the ball up but pes/we has never really evolved much in ten years on a gameplay level with most of the advancements being cosmetic and even to this day its dynamics of passing and shooting as well as movement remain pretty much unchanged.Im not saying i want perfect striker back but theres so many great ideas and concepts that if they had been added to pes/we,these would of made it a vastly superior game and this genre would be on a completely different plain by now.Instead it has stayed quite stagnent until ea have made the strides they have which has finally made konami wake up and revamp the series hopefully in pes2011 which is so badly needed,i dont think im alone in saying i want something more fresh and challenging.

Greyhound of wii pes fame produced the iss/perfect striker series and he and seabass are very good friends and work together now.Game quality doesnt always dictate which studio becomes defunct(although everything majorA produced after perfect striker3 was awful),it was more a case of the ps1 being a more successful console then the n64 which meant MAJOR As decline,plus the PS2 architecture struggled to emulate n64 code which is evident in world soccer2000 and perfect striker3,much like the pes ps2 code is on the platforms of today.

Konami have always wanted to make a newer version of this series and take it to another level and pes2011 may yet be the one.

 

[Lami]

"Expand and improve ML"

Oh' my god, if they are looking to Football Manager for the way to go please god could this mean an end to fantasy league football and we finally, well I finally do, as nobody else seams to care about the crappy league system, get a proper full league structure...

Well, lets hope that was rated as top priority by most users then...

 

[Aqua]

romagnoli stated right that its hard to make a manual pass with an analoge stick, look at the rightStick in pes for years now noone plays it, only thing they can do is to make this pass bar and thats it

nothin more i want, and bring back manual cursor change its affecting passes aswell, 010 cursor is fukin awful

 

[wan_d7]

i rather pass the ball to the corner flag rather than the CPU keep deciding which player should get the ball. The passing bar is a must. That's the least I hope they could change. And hoping that the ping pong passing between the CPU is fix.

 

[Ern Dog]

look at the rightStick in pes for years now noone plays it,

I use the manual pass with right stick alot, back when I used to play PES often, I would probably make around 50% of my passes with it. It is useful to drag a player into space by playing the ball infrotn of them and there are passes that you cannot make with the normal pass buttons that become available with right stick. If you are aware of whats going on around you you can use it to great effect.

 

[romagnoli]

The right stick pass in PES is an absolute disgrace compared to the FIFA equivalent. The one in PES 2010 is probably the worst it's ever been.

A good post but you didnt have to bring adam from wenb into this,im much older then he is and have been a konami fan since NES hyper soccer and dont take his word as gospel as some do or are my opinions influenced by him.

You really don't have to defend yourself so much. You keep referring to your age or your experience, but I very much doubt that argument holds water with many people nowadays. I imagine the majority of people that post here have several years of work experience in one form or another, and appreciate that experience and the ability to apply that experience are very different qualities. That's not to say that you are an example, but that I don't think anyone treats anyone else's posts differently just because of the amount of programming experience they say they have or how old they are. Let the standard of your posts do the talking, as they otherwise have been .

 

[klashman69]

The right stick pass in PES is an absolute disgrace compared to the FIFA equivalent. The one in PES 2010 is probably the worst it's ever been.

Yup, it's really hard to use and it seems you can only pass in 8 directions at best, usualy only 4!

 

[steveee]

so this is the year super cancel finally goes away?

 

[AHTPAKCA]

so this is the year super cancel finally goes away?

why SC must goes away ?? it's a great thing ...
Without SC PES will be not PES !