PES 2011 Discussion thread

I don't have a problem with a tap of the shot button resulting in very powerful/high shots.

In real football when you go for goal it's usually an instinctive action, not a considered and thought-out one unless you are in loads of space and focus on placing the strike, or try to chip the keeper, or you are a super composed world class player...

In PES 2011 the L1 chip and R2 controlled shot are the two types of shot that you can fully power up and rarely hit over the bar, which makes sense to me as they are planned actions.

The regular shot, using the shot button alone, seems like an "instinctive" strike, the player just swinging their leg through the ball, aiming vaguely for the corner you choose - as we all know from real football, it is very easy to blast the ball over the bar even when you try and keep the ball down if you put power behind the shot...

I also don't agree with the idea that tapping the shot button for a powerful strike isn't satisfying - when you strike the ball sweetly in real life, you barely feel like you have hit the ball yet it flies off your boot like a rocket...
If any of you have ever had a go at those things where the speed of the ball is measured when you kick it at wall, you've probably noticed that when you fling your leg at the ball, trying to use brute force to generate power, you actually don't strike the ball all that well and usually getting your technique right will produce better results - of course occasionally brute force and technique can be combined for stunning results ala Roberto Carlos...

I should probably stop as I'm most likely making no sense, I know what I'm thinking but can't put it into words very well :P.
 
Just wrote a long-winded post on how frustrating I find the fact that I can seemingly only score one goal per match in my early ML season (with the default numbnuts) but decided to change the tactics to 4-3-3 before and play another match (to confirm) and went on to kick Espanyol out of the park with 6-1, scoring more goals in one game than I did during the last eight together.

This game perplexes me to no end. Like rom said: it's fantastic when you are in control, but it's utterly infuriating when you are not.
 
Rob92 said:
I don't have a problem with a tap of the shot button resulting in very powerful/high shots.
Click to expand...

I think it's clear many people on these forums don't have a problem with it, I'm just trying to explain why I think others are not so happy with it. I've personally played enough that I'm comfortable with the system, but I also don't think it's implemented as well it could be.

I'll also point out that, though you're fine with a tap equaling a powerful shot that is not what the manual implies should happen and it's counter intuitive to a system that includes a power gauge for shot power. I think for many people it's only logical that, in addition to Jimmy's footballing fundamentals, the game would take into account your specific inputs. If a powerful shot can be achieved by a slight tap of the shot button, especially if it's not a one-timer where the power is already in the ball's movement, then it can be confusing; i.e. if a tap can equal a powerful shot, what equals a soft shot?

Rob92 said:
In real football when you go for goal it's usually an instinctive action, not a considered and thought-out one unless you are in loads of space and focus on placing the strike, or try to chip the keeper, or you are a super composed world class player...

In PES 2011 the L1 chip and R2 controlled shot are the two types of shot that you can fully power up and rarely hit over the bar, which makes sense to me as they are planned actions.

The regular shot, using the shot button alone, seems like an "instinctive" strike, the player just swinging their leg through the ball, aiming vaguely for the corner you choose - as we all know from real football, it is very easy to blast the ball over the bar even when you try and keep the ball down if you put power behind the shot...

I also don't agree with the idea that tapping the shot button for a powerful strike isn't satisfying - when you strike the ball sweetly in real life, you barely feel like you have hit the ball yet it flies off your boot like a rocket...
Click to expand...

IRL, in addition to balance, foot plant, body lean, timing, etc, one of the factors determining how the ball leaves your boot is the velocity, or force, behind your boot when it strikes ball. It has been the power gauge, in my mind, that has always determined the force of your foot motion, just like the power gauge in Tiger Woods represents the force of your golf swing, or in NHL the power behind your stick motion. Of course there are instances IRL where you'll fire a shot without putting max force behind your body movement but more frequently than not a powerful shot is intentionally powered with a powerful swing and high torque, that includes the necessary backlift and follow through. These factors I feel are not being properly reproduced when a tap results in a strong shot.


klashman69 said:
A hard shot isn't really much about brute force, it's more of a technique!

Hence why the midget Aliev has probably the hardest shot i've ever seen!
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Yes Klash, but as I responded above, force of your swing is part of technique, and typically what is considered to represented by the power gauge.

Consider a real world shot completed with the laces by a right footed player, striking the ball with his preferred foot but with only half his possible back-lift and in his follow through he remains planted on his left foot. Depending upon other variables this shot may have some zip on it but it's unlikely to reach his max potential power.

Consider another situation with the same player, except this time he gets a larger backlift in winding up us shot while on his follow through he goes for such force that he boosts off of his plant foot so that he's fully airborne for a moment, landing on his shooting foot. Ronaldo cutting across the middle completing one of these shots springs immediately to mind.

I think the problem is that while you would expect the power gauge to determine whether it's the second shot over the first shot, that doesn't seem to necessarily be the case right now because a tap of the shot button can result in either type of shot.

I'll also mention that I have both versions of the game and I've found this to be less of a problem on the 360 - I think the PS3 controller's buttons are more sensitive with PES than the 360. It's funny because while this helps with shooting it's not so helpful when it comes to using the R2 button for stopping quickly with the ball because you have to really press down on the trigger fully with the 360 which is a little slower than with the ps3.
 
Alright lads n lasses.

At the moment I play most games on wide cam, but have played the odd game on Broadcast which I really love up to a point. I no on the PC version you can alter angles distance etc on each Camera angle. I guess the answer is "No" but is there any mod that can do this with the XBOX360? Cheers.
 
97ac297829fd3ac70c7dd72468b931f3ae3c62a4d1065c1252da1465f9df10126g.jpg


Why does this particular tackling animation never concede a foul? It seems that Konami made this a 'safe' standing tackle as opposed to the 'lunging' standing tackle, but safe or not, a mistimed tackle is a foul.
 
I´ve been reading this many comments about shooting, and i agree with some, but i disagree when some people say its 99% body position or that its my wrong input, and incorrect time in the controller.

For an example, the shooting, when under pressure, always results in a lobbed shot. I play football, and i can shoot when i´m under pressure, even if the shoot does not go where i want i guarantee, that less than 5% result in a lobbed shoot, i would say 30% a good shoot, 40% a week low shoot, and the other 25%, it goes wide out.

In the game i´ve scored 5 or 6 goals with that kind of lobbed shot, without pressing L1, just shooting under pressure, thats not right, and the L1+[ ] its most of the time inefective, its just not balanced right.

The shooting could be better in MY Oppinion, and i play football, so the comments that some post in here, that people who think the shooting its not perfect, are dumb or don´t understand football, are just complete nonsense.
 
Rob92 said:
I don't have a problem with a tap of the shot button resulting in very powerful/high shots.

In real football when you go for goal it's usually an instinctive action, not a considered and thought-out one unless you are in loads of space and focus on placing the strike, or try to chip the keeper, or you are a super composed world class player...

In PES 2011 the L1 chip and R2 controlled shot are the two types of shot that you can fully power up and rarely hit over the bar, which makes sense to me as they are planned actions.

The regular shot, using the shot button alone, seems like an "instinctive" strike, the player just swinging their leg through the ball, aiming vaguely for the corner you choose - as we all know from real football, it is very easy to blast the ball over the bar even when you try and keep the ball down if you put power behind the shot...

I also don't agree with the idea that tapping the shot button for a powerful strike isn't satisfying - when you strike the ball sweetly in real life, you barely feel like you have hit the ball yet it flies off your boot like a rocket...
If any of you have ever had a go at those things where the speed of the ball is measured when you kick it at wall, you've probably noticed that when you fling your leg at the ball, trying to use brute force to generate power, you actually don't strike the ball all that well and usually getting your technique right will produce better results - of course occasionally brute force and technique can be combined for stunning results ala Roberto Carlos...

I should probably stop as I'm most likely making no sense, I know what I'm thinking but can't put it into words very well :P.
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Your making perfect sense and that is a brilliant post in my opinion. Nailed it for me. :)
 
Chimps-with-quiffs said:
This is from something I wrote for another site, but more or less answers your question. Also, I don't think it will affect your master league game as those players stats for yoru saved game are kept seperate. You will only see the game play changes in any thing you start after you copy the edit file over.

-

The changes I make are more designed to make the game play realistic and enjoyable.

I set out to improve the game by changing what I think it needs which in this version is to balance the gap between small and big teams ( as it is every year), improve responsiveness, give fast attackers the ability to stay ahead of slow defenders and to increase the difficulty of top player and finally to then balance the speed of the game.

Along the way the vast majority of players will be given much more accurate stats as the majority of players in the game who are not at top clubs are unresponsive, don’t have AI that will make them a challenge to play against and if they are a striker, they will be painfully slow and unable to shoot, which makes then rubbish to play with and against as they cannot score against you.

As well as this the players at top clubs who I think have been given wrong stats are changed with some being improved and some super human players being brought down.

I then test the game a great deal with games between teams in each league and then between teams from different leagues and fine-tune it. This takes the most time as having a one player running or passing the ball too fast by as little as 1 or 2 can unbalance games.

I work in software production for a company that has major releases of world wide available products and know how surprisingly little concentration is given to very big annual releases that the company depends on as they think adding a few new features will keep people interested. Because of this and looking at the changes to player database in the game each year, I honestly think that I spend more time each year editing the actual game play of this game than anyone in its development and its annoying as the game could wipe the floor with Fifa if they just concentrated on the balance of the game and not use how much control you have over players and their physical attributes to define their ability
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Cheers for answering that. I'm waiting for Goalgerd to make his edits then I'll give it a crack - sounds great.
 
sincover said:
97ac297829fd3ac70c7dd72468b931f3ae3c62a4d1065c1252da1465f9df10126g.jpg


Why does this particular tackling animation never concede a foul? It seems that Konami made this a 'safe' standing tackle as opposed to the 'lunging' standing tackle, but safe or not, a mistimed tackle is a foul.
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Seems to me that they just didn't implement the foul/collision system that greatly :JAY:
 
Anyone else finds it hard to get a ranked 1v1 match? It cant seem to find an opponent for me, whereas if I look for a friendly match i can get an opponent quite easily.. Whats weird is that theres much more users in the 1v1 ranked than friendly.
 
Northzzz said:
Seems to me that they just didn't implement the foul/collision system that greatly :JAY:
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I don't think that's the case. In the demo fouls for these types of tackles as well as other niggly tackles were called by the ref. I don't understand why they toned it down as I personally thought it was well done, although before the release a lot of people were requesting for the fouls to be toned down.
 
Zakov said:
I don't think that's the case. In the demo fouls for these types of tackles as well as other niggly tackles were called by the ref. I don't understand why they toned it down as I personally thought it was well done, although before the release a lot of people were requesting for the fouls to be toned down.
Click to expand...

The fouling system i find is quite awful, you can get away
with hacking someone down too easily not to mention getting
only a yellow or nothing for a last man lunge.

Konami need to implement a proper fouling/collision/advantage
system like EA have done with Fifa which I consider to be very
good.
 
Sabac Red said:
The fouling system i find is quite awful, you can get away
with hacking someone down too easily not to mention getting
only a yellow or nothing for a last man lunge.

Konami need to implement a proper fouling/collision/advantage
system like EA have done with Fifa which I consider to be very
good.
Click to expand...

Oh good god no. If Konami's collision system is on one end of the spectrum then FIFA is on the other end - it's overly exaggerated and contributes to FIFA playing like some hybrid of rugby and football. Konami's collision system and animations may be the poorer of the two to look at but it is much better balanced than FIFA's and doesn't pervert gameplay into a farce like FIFA 11 can be.

PES certainly needs to make the physical side of its game and its collision system a priority but it would be terrible imo for them to look to FIFA as a model.

Also the advantage rule is only slightly better and still far less than ideal in FIFA.
 
My main gripe with the refs and fouling system is the fact the AI gets away with the barging you in the back until you stumble animation, RB helps massively with this situation but the refs need to stop favouring the AI in certain Occasions. There needs to be more consistency with the refs, its slightly baffling that they were more realistic in PES 5. Standing fouls also need to be given more, FIFA's way of eliminating this was to make the cpu pefect at standing tackles therefore making the game less realistic, KONAMI need to stop dumbing down the refs and show some conviction like they do with many other areas. I mention fifa becuase both games influence each other in many areas although to me they feel very different.
 
mfmaxpower said:
Oh good god no. If Konami's collision system is on one end of the spectrum then FIFA is on the other end - it's overly exaggerated and contributes to FIFA playing like some hybrid of rugby and football. Konami's collision system and animations may be the poorer of the two to look at but it is much better balanced than FIFA's and doesn't pervert gameplay into a farce like FIFA 11 can be.

PES certainly needs to make the physical side of its game and its collision system a priority but it would be terrible imo for them to look to FIFA as a model.

Also the advantage rule is only slightly better and still far less than ideal in FIFA.
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Should of made it clearer I mean in terms of fouls been called up.

If Fifa(which I don't own) it is good not perfect but you know
where you stand.(getting sent off for a late lunge)

Nah the advantage rule in Fifa is good because it exists & is a
regular feature.

PES on the PS2 had a good advantage rule system with players getting
booked for late tackles. Pes 2011(PS3) it is near non-existent.

Konami need to fix this cause it ruins a great game of football.
 
I think the advantage and general foul detection in FIFA is leaps and bounds ahead of PES. It's something that gets taken for granted when comparing the two but FIFA is miles better at spotting fouls versus good challenges. In PES a slide tackle seems to be equivalent to a coin toss - I've conceded and won penalties that have had absolutely nothing to do with whether the ball was won, and the same goes for penalties not given.

As for collisions, FIFA has improved this year by allowing players to move while battling for the ball. It's not the technology that is then leading to the overphysicality of the past few games, but the lack of momentum and the overeffectiveness of pressing resulting from that.
 
inter_211 said:
Anyone else finds it hard to get a ranked 1v1 match? It cant seem to find an opponent for me, whereas if I look for a friendly match i can get an opponent quite easily.. Whats weird is that theres much more users in the 1v1 ranked than friendly.
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Yep. Same here. I have found it taking up to 10 minutes to get a game the last few nights:RANT:
 
I think he meant collision detection mainly, because that is too a big problem in PES. You can miss a tackle by two feet and still "hit" the other player.

As for why they removed all those fouls from the demo is probably because of the completely broken advantage system. In the demo the game stopped every 5 seconds because of freekicks (even if you still had control of the ball).

I think they will actually make it more PES 5-ish like this demo in 2012 if they have managed to fix the advantage system.

I also agree with rom that the jostling technology in FIFA is really good. If FIFA didn't have such unrealistic floaty movement, I don't think the collisions would be so exaggerated. It kind of all ties in to each other.
 
Konami have yet to nail this whole collision/foul system on Next Gen. PES 2009 suffered from horrific auto-challenges. PES 2010 the refs were almost non-existent, and in PES 2011 it's all too random. Strange really, but this area has always caused Konami problems, even PES 5.
 
Ah, the classic 'slide tackle the ball into the man and then concede the foul when he runs into you'. Those were the days. Part of me wonders if that's still the problem actually - a lot of the sliding 'fouls' seem to be when the ball is right on the other guy's foot; it might be getting confused there. I might only be noticing those mess-ups more though.
 
Can you play against someone who has a different version of the game? For example if I have the Euro version and my friend has the UK version ?
 
romagnoli said:
I think the advantage and general foul detection in FIFA is leaps and bounds ahead of PES. It's something that gets taken for granted when comparing the two but FIFA is miles better at spotting fouls versus good challenges. In PES a slide tackle seems to be equivalent to a coin toss - I've conceded and won penalties that have had absolutely nothing to do with whether the ball was won, and the same goes for penalties not given.

As for collisions, FIFA has improved this year by allowing players to move while battling for the ball. It's not the technology that is then leading to the overphysicality of the past few games, but the lack of momentum and the overeffectiveness of pressing resulting from that.
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Yeah well in FIFA a shoulder barge seems to be equivalent to a coin toss - heads the dribbler holds off the defender but is handicapped by the jostling animation; tails the dribbler goes flying five yards in comical fashion. I exaggerate but lately I'm finding FIFA difficult to take seriously (even if I have this strange addiction to building bronze teams in UT).

After playing primarily FIFA these past few years one of the things I find refreshing with PES is the balance the game has between the offensive and defensive sides of the game. Because of its exaggerated freedom FIFA allows you to do silly stuff, like I can use my striker as an efficient tackler in the opponents half, stealing the ball right upon kickoff. No foul occurs or is given because of how crazily effective jockeying and sprinting is with defenders, not to mention how insanely effective the autotackling is, but in real football there's no way this happens on a regular basis because your typical striker is going to foul the opponent nine out of ten times he rushes in to tackles at such speed. You can't do stupid stuff like that in PES - or at least to the extent that it impacts each match in FIFA - and in the end of the day that's one of the reasons why this game feels more like football.

It sort of makes me think of RPGs and dice rolls - when it comes to collisions, fouls, tackling, and most aspects of what we might consider the physical interactions of the players, PES seems to have the right balance of correct dice roll outcomes whereas FIFA's is off, it's only that FIFA does a better job at visualizing what its dice roll outcomes represent through its more advanced collision and animations system. (I know what you mean about the slide tackling but hey, I didn't say it was perfect!)

FIFA 08 was a better balanced game than 11 and it was the introduction of the 360 movement and physicality features that changed the game, so I disagree with you that it hasn't been the introduction of new tech that has created, or at least massively contributed to, the current issues. PES has such a great basic formula that works so well and I'd hate too see Konami screw it up by adding too much freedom, and get too caught up with implementing new physicality features like EA has.
 
Not disagreeing with you at all - the point is the technology is sound, it's the application that's off. To me, the idea of Konami having something anything like FIFA's tech is droolworthy.
 
mfmaxpower said:
Yeah well in FIFA a shoulder barge seems to be equivalent to a coin toss - heads the dribbler holds off the defender but is handicapped by the jostling animation; tails the dribbler goes flying five yards in comical fashion. I exaggerate but lately I'm finding FIFA difficult to take seriously (even if I have this strange addiction to building bronze teams in UT).

After playing primarily FIFA these past few years one of the things I find refreshing with PES is the balance the game has between the offensive and defensive sides of the game. Because of its exaggerated freedom FIFA allows you to do silly stuff, like I can use my striker as an efficient tackler in the opponents half, stealing the ball right upon kickoff. No foul occurs or is given because of how crazily effective jockeying and sprinting is with defenders, not to mention how insanely effective the autotackling is, but in real football there's no way this happens on a regular basis because your typical striker is going to foul the opponent nine out of ten times he rushes in to tackles at such speed. You can't do stupid stuff like that in PES - or at least to the extent that it impacts each match in FIFA - and in the end of the day that's one of the reasons why this game feels more like football.

It sort of makes me think of RPGs and dice rolls - when it comes to collisions, fouls, tackling, and most aspects of what we might consider the physical interactions of the players, PES seems to have the right balance of correct dice roll outcomes whereas FIFA's is off, it's only that FIFA does a better job at visualizing what its dice roll outcomes represent through its more advanced collision and animations system. (I know what you mean about the slide tackling but hey, I didn't say it was perfect!)

FIFA 08 was a better balanced game than 11 and it was the introduction of the 360 movement and physicality features that changed the game, so I disagree with you that it hasn't been the introduction of new tech that has created, or at least massively contributed to, the current issues. PES has such a great basic formula that works so well and I'd hate too see Konami screw it up by adding too much freedom, and get too caught up with implementing new physicality features like EA has.
Click to expand...

No one has said that they want Fifa's implementation of physicality in PES. We would just like better collision detection and an improvement in the refereeing, particularly in spotting fouls and (consistently) using advantage play.
 
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