PES 2011 Discussion thread

mfmaxpower said:
I actually do all of the above - I accept it, I enjoy it, and I get annoyed with it!.....
Click to expand...

I really dont get your argument because from what I see you agree with the point of the post you are trying to argue with.

With regard to you saying that I will just answer a criticism with "you dont understand the game" this is not true. I am pretty sure I always take the time to address peoples criticisms of the game giving a detailed explanation of why I disagree.
There is an example of this where I argue with Nerf about player positioning and runs and go to the trouble of taking photos of the game and giving explainations of what I am doing to get my players to do this. But I will add in at some point that the problem comes from his understanding of the game and not the game itself because it is true and needs to be understood.
 
Shooting in this game is wonky and broken; realistic body position my arse, I just drew 1-1 against the worst possible player in PES, and I had 9 shots on target, 15 shots in total, and I scored cause he gave me a penalty!

Does it make any sense that I've dominated the game in all areas except shooting, how the hell can it be harder to beat a keeper 1 on 1 than a long shot goal, WTF. Not to mention chip shots are worthless and the R1 curve crap doesn't work since the ball barely has any effect.

Sometimes this game is just...
 
mfmaxpower said:
I actually do all of the above - I accept it, I enjoy it, and I get annoyed with it!

But I also point out what i see are flaws and provide what I hope to be constructive feedback in the hopes the game will continue to improve.

I get that what i consider to be flaws may not be flaws in your opinion. The problem lies when, instead of responding to criticism of the game by explaining why they see it differently, responses like yours argue that the problem is not the game but the gamer, because the gamer either isn't "in tune" enough or isn't using his "football brain." Instead of responding to the criticism, there is tendency here to respond to the criticizer. That's frustrating because it doesn't help the other side understand your point of view.
Click to expand...

Well said sir. I would hate to think that any game designer/developer would deal with complaints about their game by blaming the player instead of finding ways to improve the experience for everyone.
Criticism is an important part of the creative process and although it is hard for players to provide proper constructive criticism (mostly because of their general ignorance of the development process), I believe that it is still valid and necessary.
As much as some forum members despise the 'casual' crowd, their criticisms are still valid and should be considered. That being said, no artist/designer should allow criticism to dictate the creative process, it is just meant to be a loose guide.
No product (especially a video game!) is perfect and improvement is always possible.
 
Ern Dog, it seems that we have our positions and somehow their getting closer ;). I'll try to discuss about specific aspects of the game in the future and give my opinion on how they should be fixed. I just want to clarify one thing, though, regarding the shooting system. It's not the biggest deal for me, yeah, I don't like how it acts sometimes, but the reason we've written so much about it is because Klash was focusing too much on it when replying to my posts, when it was just one of the examples I gave at the begining of things that I don't like about PES. But as I said, it's not the worst thing in the game, we just got involved discussing about it when there are more important things to discuss. However, I'll just say again, I think that SOMETIMES it's not realistic.

That being said, I would like to ask you (or anyone else who knows) about interceptions. I read someone complaining about this in this forum. How can you do 1-touch interceptions? Or you just can't? For example, when a rival passes the ball and you manage to intercept the pass, your player ALWAYS requires at least 2 ball touches to be able to pass it or clear it. Obviously, this is bad, because sometimes you intercept the ball and can't get rid of it quickly, making it easy for your rival to steal it back from you if another player is close enough.

Another thing is the online connectivity sign (yeah, the 3 little bars on top of the screen when you're going to play an online game). Is it me or it's always red? I mean it's red the smallest bar, meaning there's no good connectivity. The thing is that the game lag experience when you actually play has nothing to do with those bars. No matter if I play a lag-free game or a laggy game, that sign is always the same. Maybe it's some sort of bug in the connectivity detection?
 
mr_man said:
Shooting in this game is wonky and broken; realistic body position my arse, I just drew 1-1 against the worst possible player in PES, and I had 9 shots on target, 15 shots in total, and I scored cause he gave me a penalty!

Does it make any sense that I've dominated the game in all areas except shooting, how the hell can it be harder to beat a keeper 1 on 1 than a long shot goal, WTF. Not to mention chip shots are worthless and the R1 curve crap doesn't work since the ball barely has any effect.

Sometimes this game is just...
Click to expand...

lol that happens to me all the time, I guess I still don't get the shooting system
 
Pere Ubu said:
Noticed something pretty weird last night.

We all know about those unsaveable free kicks the CPU likes to score. Less than 30 yards out, facing the goal, player with half-decent free kick stats... bang. Almost every single time. Ball arcs slowly into the corner, goalie staggers over at 1mph and just dives under it like a twat, even if it would have been easier to make the save. Makes you spit.

Anyway, like many people I've been trying L1+R3 to move my goalkeeper along the line. It looks totally stupid, of course - in real life the wall will stand in a certain place, and the goalie will stand the other side of it, meaning he has to shuttle along his line to save a good shot, but we all know that in PES2011 he never gets there. So you have to move him into the middle of the goal, so that he's standing behind his wall. Realistically he'd never stand there because he'd be unsighted, but hey, that's the way it is. At least he'll now save free kicks, sometimes (and when he does, it makes the previously unstoppable FK look appalling... because AI free kicks rarely fly into the top corner, they seem to drop into the net very slowly at about waist-height, so if the goalie's there, it's a simple catch).

So far, so shit. I'm sure we've all tried this. Is it just me though - sometimes L1+R3 won't give you control of your keeper? It just won't switch, however many times you try, or it does switch but he won't move, he's just frozen and you have to quickly switch the cursor back to a defender. Right? Well I think there's a pattern to this.

Seems to me that when you can't get control of your goalie, that means the AI is going to miss the target. Every time the cursor wouldn't switch to the keeper I was thinking "oh shit", but in every case that FK either hit the post or went wide. Whenever I did manage to get control of the keeper, guess what? The shot was on target.

If this isn't just a coincidence then it's pretty crap. Sure, the outcome of an AI free kick (cpu-controlled FK taker v cpu-controlled goalkeeper) is going to be scripted, and the script will be in place before the shot is taken. It has to be that way. But this issue makes that scripting a bit too obvious and intrusive, and kind of ruins the drama and tension of a free kick situation.

It's bad enough as it is - moving the goalie into an unrealistic position makes the free kick saveable (sometimes), leaving him standing where he should be standing means the cpu will score 9 times out of 10. That's crap. But effectively letting you know in advance whether the shot will be on target or not... that's completely ridiculous. Has anyone else noticed this? Am I going mad, or is this actually a definite pattern?
Click to expand...

You don't get it Pere (ets català/valencià?). What happens here is completely realistic, and much more, it show how much smart this game can be. When the player is ready to kick the ball, obviously, he knows what is going to happen. He knows the wind speed, how tired he is, how tired the goal keeper is, if he just argued with his wife, what him and the kicker had for dinner last night, the stadium lights intensity... everything. So he basically knows if the ball we'll go in or out. Why let you lose your time moving the keeper if he already knows that the ball is going out? He's saving you useless efforts! That's smart. And if you can move the keeper, it acts totally realistic. What better place than the center of the goal to place the goal keep at? Even a 4-year old kid knows that!

SO don't worry Pere and keep playing, it's all about realism, some day you'll get it... :BRICK:
 
mfmaxpower said:
I actually do all of the above - I accept it, I enjoy it, and I get annoyed with it!

But I also point out what i see are flaws and provide what I hope to be constructive feedback in the hopes the game will continue to improve.

I get that what i consider to be flaws may not be flaws in your opinion. The problem lies when, instead of responding to criticism of the game by explaining why they see it differently, responses like yours argue that the problem is not the game but the gamer, because the gamer either isn't "in tune" enough or isn't using his "football brain." Instead of responding to the criticism, there is tendency here to respond to the criticizer. That's frustrating because it doesn't help the other side understand your point of view.

Example:



First of all, what you said there is true of every video game under the sun - anyone who's played video games knows that you can't expect an action to be carried out until the preceding one is completed, whether it's waiting for a dribbling animation in PES or a reloading animation in a shooter. I really don't think people not understanding how inputs and animations work is an issue - your talking video gaming 101 here.

Seabass isn't above reproach, he isn't perfect, and i think after the recent years it's obvious that just because he intended something to be a certain way doesn't mean it's ideal or even suitable.*My point is, that rather than criticize another person's ability to understand and play the game - again, most posters on this forum aren't exactly casual noobs - id rather see people's reasoning for defending the systems under question.


So right there is an example of how imo the game is less than ideal, and it's representative of the bigger claims of unresponsiveness that people have. Now ignoring whether or not "Seabass intended it that way" it would be most helpful to hear a defense for why examples like this are not causes for criticism or areas needing improvement, rather than reading accusations that someone just isn't in tune enough with the game.

**Edit: wow, so lebert's post above, and his issues with the shooting system: perfect example of what i'm talking about. On one hand I love the variety of shooting in PES but i also find it unintuitive how pressure sensitive it is - it's weird to me that you need to hold down the pass button so much longer than the shoot button. There's also imo a greater level of satisfaction from scoring a screamer when you have to hold down the button a little longer than a tap, but maybe that's just me. Overall i'm fairly satisfied with the shooting system but I would like to see this tweaked.
Click to expand...

Good to see I'm not alone with this thoughts! It looks like we agreed to write that! LOL
 
_anderson said:
Isn't it more simple to just get a player on the other side of the goal? Works 99% of the times.
Click to expand...

You mean put a man on the line? That's pretty unrealistic too, and besides, every time I've tried it the player takes two steps to one side as soon as the free kick is taken, allowing it to go in. Absolutely ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game. But this stuff I'm moaning about isn't really up for debate like the shooting system etc. That's something you can have an opinion about, some like it and some don't. But these are just simple mistakes or faults in the game, which could and should be sorted out easily. Lazy programming. Stuff you have to moan about or they''ll just keep doing it.

Like I say, AI free kicks have always been 100% scripted in PES, because they have to be. But in the past, the cpu would score direct from a well-placed FK maybe once every five or six tries, like real life. The rest of the time he'd miss, or sometimes your goalkeeper would make a flying save. It was scripted, but it was realistic, and nobody minded because in real life there's not much you can do about a perfect free kick anyway. You knew that if you kept giving away free kicks around the box, sooner or later you might be punished, especially if the opposition had a Beckham or a Juninho or a Ronaldinho. No problem; the system worked.

Now it's a complete joke. Any player with stats above 75 for free kick accuracy WILL score, 9 times out of ten, when facing the goal from 19-30 yards. They won't even try to shoot from further out, and they won't try to surprise you with a curler from out wide. But anywhere in front of goal - BANG. Or more accurately, PHUT... because most of those slow, floating free kicks would be saved with ease by a half-decent goalie. Grim.
 
Ern Dog said:
There is an example of this where I argue with Nerf about player positioning and runs and go to the trouble of taking photos of the game and giving explainations of what I am doing to get my players to do this. But I will add in at some point that the problem comes from his understanding of the game and not the game itself because it is true and needs to be understood.
Click to expand...
It is true. My understanding was that AI teammates off-the-ball would have natural awareness of each other's positions and make logical use of available space around them. What I failed to understand about the game was that they don't do this, they simply follow instructions. I should have understood that this is good AI, I should have understood that it is my fault for not forcing them to run in opposite directions, then there's no problem with the game itself :BYE:
 
Pere Ubu said:
Noticed something pretty weird last night.

We all know about those unsaveable free kicks the CPU likes to score. Less than 30 yards out, facing the goal, player with half-decent free kick stats... bang. Almost every single time. Ball arcs slowly into the corner, goalie staggers over at 1mph and just dives under it like a twat, even if it would have been easier to make the save. Makes you spit.

Anyway, like many people I've been trying L1+R3 to move my goalkeeper along the line. It looks totally stupid, of course - in real life the wall will stand in a certain place, and the goalie will stand the other side of it, meaning he has to shuttle along his line to save a good shot, but we all know that in PES2011 he never gets there. So you have to move him into the middle of the goal, so that he's standing behind his wall. Realistically he'd never stand there because he'd be unsighted, but hey, that's the way it is. At least he'll now save free kicks, sometimes (and when he does, it makes the previously unstoppable FK look appalling... because AI free kicks rarely fly into the top corner, they seem to drop into the net very slowly at about waist-height, so if the goalie's there, it's a simple catch).

So far, so shit. I'm sure we've all tried this. Is it just me though - sometimes L1+R3 won't give you control of your keeper? It just won't switch, however many times you try, or it does switch but he won't move, he's just frozen and you have to quickly switch the cursor back to a defender. Right? Well I think there's a pattern to this.

Seems to me that when you can't get control of your goalie, that means the AI is going to miss the target. Every time the cursor wouldn't switch to the keeper I was thinking "oh shit", but in every case that FK either hit the post or went wide. Whenever I did manage to get control of the keeper, guess what? The shot was on target.

If this isn't just a coincidence then it's pretty crap. Sure, the outcome of an AI free kick (cpu-controlled FK taker v cpu-controlled goalkeeper) is going to be scripted, and the script will be in place before the shot is taken. It has to be that way. But this issue makes that scripting a bit too obvious and intrusive, and kind of ruins the drama and tension of a free kick situation.

It's bad enough as it is - moving the goalie into an unrealistic position makes the free kick saveable (sometimes), leaving him standing where he should be standing means the cpu will score 9 times out of 10. That's crap. But effectively letting you know in advance whether the shot will be on target or not... that's completely ridiculous. Has anyone else noticed this? Am I going mad, or is this actually a definite pattern?
Click to expand...

I had a problem getting control of the goalie when I first started playing the game but not so anymore. A light touch on the buttons is best. Just make sure you get rid of control of the goalie or you're dead.
 
Pere Ubu said:
You mean put a man on the line? That's pretty unrealistic too, and besides, every time I've tried it the player takes two steps to one side as soon as the free kick is taken, allowing it to go in. Absolutely ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game. But this stuff I'm moaning about isn't really up for debate like the shooting system etc. That's something you can have an opinion about, some like it and some don't. But these are just simple mistakes or faults in the game, which could and should be sorted out easily. Lazy programming. Stuff you have to moan about or they''ll just keep doing it.

Like I say, AI free kicks have always been 100% scripted in PES, because they have to be. But in the past, the cpu would score direct from a well-placed FK maybe once every five or six tries, like real life. The rest of the time he'd miss, or sometimes your goalkeeper would make a flying save. It was scripted, but it was realistic, and nobody minded because in real life there's not much you can do about a perfect free kick anyway. You knew that if you kept giving away free kicks around the box, sooner or later you might be punished, especially if the opposition had a Beckham or a Juninho or a Ronaldinho. No problem; the system worked.

Now it's a complete joke. Any player with stats above 75 for free kick accuracy WILL score, 9 times out of ten, when facing the goal from 19-30 yards. They won't even try to shoot from further out, and they won't try to surprise you with a curler from out wide. But anywhere in front of goal - BANG. Or more accurately, PHUT... because most of those slow, floating free kicks would be saved with ease by a half-decent goalie. Grim.
Click to expand...

If your switching is perfect on the field player you have on the goal line you can make a save with him but it is difficult. I'm not a great player so I am liking the fact that I might never master this game. I feel sorry for all you guys who beat the comp 10-0 on top player.:COOL:
 
For regular WENB members, if you come across a Championship version of the latest Option File on their can you post it here.

Thanks in advance
 
Pere Ubu said:
You mean put a man on the line? That's pretty unrealistic too, and besides, every time I've tried it the player takes two steps to one side as soon as the free kick is taken, allowing it to go in. Absolutely ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game. But this stuff I'm moaning about isn't really up for debate like the shooting system etc. That's something you can have an opinion about, some like it and some don't. But these are just simple mistakes or faults in the game, which could and should be sorted out easily. Lazy programming. Stuff you have to moan about or they''ll just keep doing it.

Like I say, AI free kicks have always been 100% scripted in PES, because they have to be. But in the past, the cpu would score direct from a well-placed FK maybe once every five or six tries, like real life. The rest of the time he'd miss, or sometimes your goalkeeper would make a flying save. It was scripted, but it was realistic, and nobody minded because in real life there's not much you can do about a perfect free kick anyway. You knew that if you kept giving away free kicks around the box, sooner or later you might be punished, especially if the opposition had a Beckham or a Juninho or a Ronaldinho. No problem; the system worked.

Now it's a complete joke. Any player with stats above 75 for free kick accuracy WILL score, 9 times out of ten, when facing the goal from 19-30 yards. They won't even try to shoot from further out, and they won't try to surprise you with a curler from out wide. But anywhere in front of goal - BANG. Or more accurately, PHUT... because most of those slow, floating free kicks would be saved with ease by a half-decent goalie. Grim.
Click to expand...

They go through phases of always scoring from free kicks the AI do. I think in this game Konami do need to tweak the effectiveness of free kicks, they are scoring too many!

Thing is i've managed somehow to perfect putting a man on the line! What you have to do i think is errm hold the shoot button once it's taken, he then tracks the ball's patch and heads it off the line!
 
All this talk about positioning the keeper in FKs, and nobody has mentioned it yet - You can move the keeper anywhere!

I've recorded this video days ago and was unsure about uploading it as to which extent people would exploit it. Anyway the counter-measure I've found is to quickly change FK setup and shoot.

YouTube - PES 2011 keeper FK bug

I don't think bugs like this can ever be fixed by a single patch.
 
sattan_hussein said:
All this talk about positioning the keeper in FKs, and nobody has mentioned it yet - You can move the keeper anywhere!

I've recorded this video days ago and was unsure about uploading it as to which extent people would exploit it. Anyway the counter-measure I've found is to quickly change FK setup and shoot.

YouTube - PES 2011 keeper FK bug

I don't think bugs like this can ever be fixed by a single patch.
Click to expand...

That's a shame that's in, but it does seem to speak to the the ambitious pledge to freedom that PES have took, but which resulted in some loose ends here and there. Hope they get it together sooner rather than later.
 
Aaahhh, is there anything better than saturday morning PES? Well, actually a number of things are, but I had a great session this morning. Just as I suspected I only getting fully immersed in this game now that I have started Master League. All the drama and excitement of real football is truly starting to kick in.
 
mr_man said:
Shooting in this game is wonky and broken; realistic body position my arse, I just drew 1-1 against the worst possible player in PES, and I had 9 shots on target, 15 shots in total, and I scored cause he gave me a penalty!

Does it make any sense that I've dominated the game in all areas except shooting, how the hell can it be harder to beat a keeper 1 on 1 than a long shot goal, WTF. Not to mention chip shots are worthless and the R1 curve crap doesn't work since the ball barely has any effect.

Sometimes this game is just...
Click to expand...

The shooting is so not wonky or broken, in my opinion. It's the best there has ever been on PES for me. As for body posture, it means everything. To be honest, I cant even be bothered to go into why these days. I dont find it broken, and thats good enough for me. I love it. I will say this though, try tapping R2 after you press shoot in and around the box, and you wont have an issues.
 
Last edited:
I know it is just a video game and I suck at it but I know when I am going to pure a shot at goal by ball position and body position. I watch a lot of football these days Serie A and Barclays EPL and I marvel at how many missed shots the best players in the world make all the time. So in that way the game does mirror real life. What fun would any game be if every button press resulted in a goal?
 
I think with shooting the approach angle and speed of the ball are very important - you can get a better shot away from distance when you're running onto a rolling ball played into your stride rather than sprinting with the ball at your feet ala PES6.

Recently I have been using the manual pass to just lay the ball off for a shot (only need a slight tap), scored some cracking goals, I have been playing as Corinthians and mainly doing this with R.Carlos to be fair though :LOL:
 
Can someone help me with penalties? No matter what I do my goalie will not move. I hold the left stick either up or down depending on the goal I am defending and press the Square button to dive as the opposing player shoots. Is this correct? What is the proper sequence I should be using?
 
Today I dusted off the old PS2 to have a few games of PES 6 with my friends, and the amount of things that game does better than PES 2011 is both staggering and disappointing at the same time...

Shooting in PES 6 is more intuitive and although some people like it I think shooting in PES 2011 is terrible and counterintuitive. Body position, timing and all that stuff are fair points but that doesn't mean every mistimed or mishit shot should float over the bar, if I tap shoot whilst in a bad position I'd expect the ball to bobble towards goal and stay low, not sail miles over the bar. As someone else pointed out tapping shoot also shouldn't result in a thunderbolt which occasionally it does, it takes away a bit from the satisfaction. Again, I like the mechanic where you have to take balance/timing into account but the result is a bit random for me.

Off the ball movement is much better too, you don't have to tweak sliders or player cards/stats to get logical results, such as a fullback attacking space in front of him or strikers not getting in each others way. Apart from that there's also the minor stuff like player switching, the advantage rule and the camera angle which I still don't like.

Of course PES 2011 is a much better game and I love playing it, but it's so disappointing to see they unnecessarily took away many good things and replaced them with stuff that just doesn't work as well, or just not at all.
 
Steekbal said:
Today I dusted off the old PS2 to have a few games of PES 6 with my friends, and the amount of things that game does better than PES 2011 is both staggering and disappointing at the same time...

Shooting in PES 6 is more intuitive and although some people like it I think shooting in PES 2011 is terrible and counterintuitive. Body position, timing and all that stuff are fair points but that doesn't mean every mistimed or mishit shot should float over the bar, if I tap shoot whilst in a bad position I'd expect the ball to bobble towards goal and stay low, not sail miles over the bar. As someone else pointed out tapping shoot also shouldn't result in a thunderbolt which occasionally it does, it takes away a bit from the satisfaction. Again, I like the mechanic where you have to take balance/timing into account but the result is a bit random for me.

Off the ball movement is much better too, you don't have to tweak sliders or player cards/stats to get logical results, such as a fullback attacking space in front of him or strikers not getting in each others way. Apart from that there's also the minor stuff like player switching, the advantage rule and the camera angle which I still don't like.

Of course PES 2011 is a much better game and I love playing it, but it's so disappointing to see they unnecessarily took away many good things and replaced them with stuff that just doesn't work as well, or just not at all.
Click to expand...

Well said, it's a total lottery when it comes to shooting, absolutely awful. 35 meter goals occur with a tap yet sometimes I'm able to nail one inside the penalty box with the power bar filled. My infuriation comes from how I miss *open* goal attempts because the ball ends up going sky high.

The shooting is completely random, some if it is based on feel, but otherwise..
 
Steekbal said:
Today I dusted off the old PS2 to have a few games of PES 6 with my friends, and the amount of things that game does better than PES 2011 is both staggering and disappointing at the same time...

Shooting in PES 6 is more intuitive and although some people like it I think shooting in PES 2011 is terrible and counterintuitive. Body position, timing and all that stuff are fair points but that doesn't mean every mistimed or mishit shot should float over the bar, if I tap shoot whilst in a bad position I'd expect the ball to bobble towards goal and stay low, not sail miles over the bar. As someone else pointed out tapping shoot also shouldn't result in a thunderbolt which occasionally it does, it takes away a bit from the satisfaction. Again, I like the mechanic where you have to take balance/timing into account but the result is a bit random for me.

Off the ball movement is much better too, you don't have to tweak sliders or player cards/stats to get logical results, such as a fullback attacking space in front of him or strikers not getting in each others way. Apart from that there's also the minor stuff like player switching, the advantage rule and the camera angle which I still don't like.

Of course PES 2011 is a much better game and I love playing it, but it's so disappointing to see they unnecessarily took away many good things and replaced them with stuff that just doesn't work as well, or just not at all.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with your post. Some people here say that the shooting system in PES 2011 is more realistic, but I completely disagree with that, I already explained why (minimum power equals flying balls???). And the referees were muuuuch better then I think.
 
Personally i find PES 6 really scripted for shooting. I remember defenders missing open tap-ins many times presumably because they were defenders and had low shooting stats. Pes 2011 is better imo. On the other hand i find shooting in PES 2011 much better but i can understand the problems people are having. I find 1 v 1 shooting works very well in terms of physics but the problems for me come down to when you're being pressured. It happens often that you'll end up with some balloon floaty weird chip type shot that makes no sense because in real life you wouldn't be able to achieve this if you tried. If anything whilst you're being pressured you should either just shoot completely wide of the goal or scuff it and not be able to connect well with the ball.

I think shots outside the box are still annoying in PES 2011. It's way too easy to hit a shot on target, or ever so slightly over, with loads of power. There's no real way to either mishit the shot or balloon it wide because the shot will always head towards to goal direction by default.

One major problem i find with PES 2011 over the other games in the series is that individual shooting ability seems to matter much less than the other games. Earlier today i watched my friends playing. Richard Dunne scored a bicycle kick in one game and in the other Steven Fletcher scored two power long shots, one with his right foot and one with his left. To me there's something dramatically wrong with the shooting statistics and these examples go someway to highlighting that. I really don't feel that the stats matter as much as they should. I never really feel more or less comfortable with better or worse strikers in shooting situations.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom