PES 2011 Discussion thread

[Jimmy G-Force]

Jimmy, not convinced rolling the stick achieves anything that holding it diagonally wouldn't? Seems like you're doing it because it feels right, when something much simpler would suffice. Like when some people give it some with Wii Tennis because it feels right but others realise you can just flick your wrist for the same outcome.

A lot of PES's charm is that it's quite enigmatic. You don't quite know how everything truly works because Konami don't take mimicking real life literally. So you end up trying to learn by playing. When you see/feel that one or two areas are very deep, that feeling bleeds across into other areas so you perceive additional depth that might not actually be there.

This enigmatic approach is what gives PES its soul. I spent a lot of last Friday explaining this, and the importance of attention to detail in the right areas to give the feeling of more depth elsewhere, to EA and various FIFA guys.

Maybe your right bud, but by all means try exactly what I have mentioned, and see what happens. Then try just holding it diagonally. After pulling these corners off, with pace, topspin and swerve, and then just with swerve and pace, it was definately the circular rotating motion that caused this. And whether it's by coincidence or design, it's mirroring the real-life technique behind it.

Also, the delivery bends, then dips, which really does fall inline with the motion of the stick.

 

[romagnoli]

D'Agostino is what's doing it, honestly. You just described a number of free kicks he has hit for me, especially one that hit the crossbar from 32 yards despite him being 77 or so for shotpower.

I'll try it but it seems a very big thing to not mention at all. Reminds me of Expander's aftertouch talk!

 

[Pere Ubu]

Has anyone seen this? http://www.kitanamedia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3774&start=0

I'm pretty dubious to be honest. I did an academic project a few years ago about the cognitive patterns (wonky thinking) which allow people to believe weird stuff without any real evidence, and a lot of the remarks there and in other threads where they're discussing it really remind me of that. Also, the guy who dreamt this up seems to think he's some sort of superhero, posting everywhere and shouting down anyone who complains about gameplay issues - "Jesus Christ! Just use my fix and your problems will be solved! What's WRONG with you?", which is quite amusing.

On the other hand, I did notice the game seeming sluggish when I installed the new WENB Option File. I had a couple of days of pure frustration in my French league, thinking "shit, when this game isn't fun it's REALLY no fun." Clumsy, unresponsive, sluggish, etc. But then last night everything seemed to fall back into place and I had a great four-hour session, finishing with a 4-0 crushing of Valenciennes, and everything felt fluent and responsive again. Hadn't touched the OF, or done this "fix", so I reckon it might just be the usual moodiness of PES, which has always (in all versions) seemed a better or worse game on different days, for reasons I've never understood...

I'd be interested to know if any of the sober and intelligent posters here have tried this supposed fix, or if they've noticed any weirdness after installing large OFs. Opinion seems divided on that forum, and for all I know the guys saying "OMG it works, it's undeniable" could be 12-year-olds who think they saw a UFO once because a leaf blew past their bedroom window. I mean, there's people there saying "Wow, I played with the WENB OF and then played a game in a new user profile with no OF, and the loading times were much quicker!" - which I had to admit made me laugh a lot. Hmm, quicker loading times without a massive OF on the hard drive, you say... Then there's the guy's insistence that when you install a big OF the game "reverts to older code" - um, like the disc magically remembers coding from before it was made, like memories of a past life, far out man. It's clear that most of these people don't know much about the technical aspect of computers or computer games.

Still, you never know...

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

D'Agostino is what's doing it, honestly. You just described a number of free kicks he has hit for me, especially one that hit the crossbar from 32 yards despite him being 77 or so for shotpower.

I'll try it but it seems a very big thing to not mention at all. Reminds me of Expander's aftertouch talk!

Thats exactly what I was worried about when I wrote it. To be fair, that sort of after-touch has always been there in some form or another from set-pieces. Just never from open play like he suggested. It's probably more enhanced due to D'Agostino's technique. I dont think it's a big think to be honest, it's merely moving stick still from a left sided position forward. Left being the swerve, forward the dip and pace. Nothing special really, and quite logical when you think of how it works.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Has anyone seen this? http://www.kitanamedia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3774&start=0

I'm pretty dubious to be honest. I did an academic project a few years ago about the cognitive patterns (wonky thinking) which allow people to believe weird stuff without any real evidence, and a lot of the remarks there and in other threads where they're discussing it really remind me of that. Also, the guy who dreamt this up seems to think he's some sort of superhero, posting everywhere and shouting down anyone who complains about gameplay issues - "Jesus Christ! Just use my fix and your problems will be solved! What's WRONG with you?", which is quite amusing.

On the other hand, I did notice the game seeming sluggish when I installed the new WENB Option File. I had a couple of days of pure frustration in my French league, thinking "shit, when this game isn't fun it's REALLY no fun." Clumsy, unresponsive, sluggish, etc. But then last night everything seemed to fall back into place and I had a great four-hour session, finishing with a 4-0 crushing of Valenciennes, and everything felt fluent and responsive again. Hadn't touched the OF, or done this "fix", so I reckon it might just be the usual moodiness of PES, which has always (in all versions) seemed a better or worse game on different days, for reasons I've never understood...

I'd be interested to know if any of the sober and intelligent posters here have tried this supposed fix, or if they've noticed any weirdness after installing large OFs. Opinion seems divided on that forum, and for all I know the guys saying "OMG it works, it's undeniable" could be 12-year-olds who think they saw a UFO once because a leaf blew past their bedroom window. I mean, there's people there saying "Wow, I played with the WENB OF and then played a game in a new user profile with no OF, and the loading times were much quicker!" - which I had to admit made me laugh a lot. Hmm, quicker loading times without a massive OF on the hard drive, you say... Then there's the guy's insistence that when you install a big OF the game "reverts to older code" - um, like the disc magically remembers coding from before it was made, like memories of a past life, far out man. It's clear that most of these people don't know much about the technical aspect of computers or computer games.

Still, you never know...

A large majority of this is the classic Placebo Effect. As for PES playing differently from time to time, people have remarked previously that it's down to varying weather conditions and different pitches.

 

[Steekbal]

Has anyone seen this? http://www.kitanamedia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3774&start=0

I'm pretty dubious to be honest. I did an academic project a few years ago about the cognitive patterns (wonky thinking) which allow people to believe weird stuff without any real evidence, and a lot of the remarks there and in other threads where they're discussing it really remind me of that. Also, the guy who dreamt this up seems to think he's some sort of superhero, posting everywhere and shouting down anyone who complains about gameplay issues - "Jesus Christ! Just use my fix and your problems will be solved! What's WRONG with you?", which is quite amusing.

On the other hand, I did notice the game seeming sluggish when I installed the new WENB Option File. I had a couple of days of pure frustration in my French league, thinking "shit, when this game isn't fun it's REALLY no fun." Clumsy, unresponsive, sluggish, etc. But then last night everything seemed to fall back into place and I had a great four-hour session, finishing with a 4-0 crushing of Valenciennes, and everything felt fluent and responsive again. Hadn't touched the OF, or done this "fix", so I reckon it might just be the usual moodiness of PES, which has always (in all versions) seemed a better or worse game on different days, for reasons I've never understood...

I'd be interested to know if any of the sober and intelligent posters here have tried this supposed fix, or if they've noticed any weirdness after installing large OFs. Opinion seems divided on that forum, and for all I know the guys saying "OMG it works, it's undeniable" could be 12-year-olds who think they saw a UFO once because a leaf blew past their bedroom window. I mean, there's people there saying "Wow, I played with the WENB OF and then played a game in a new user profile with no OF, and the loading times were much quicker!" - which I had to admit made me laugh a lot. Hmm, quicker loading times without a massive OF on the hard drive, you say... Then there's the guy's insistence that when you install a big OF the game "reverts to older code" - um, like the disc magically remembers coding from before it was made, like memories of a past life, far out man. It's clear that most of these people don't know much about the technical aspect of computers or computer games.

Still, you never know...

He goes a large way to disqualifying himself by saying his so called fix improves anti-aliasing and even 'seems to have a better colour palette'. Absolutely ludicrous suggestions which have nothing to do with option files.

But hey, if they feel they're enjoying it more, good for them.

 

[Kaiser]

I've never read more nonsense in my life!!

 

[jcvf90]

I'm going to F*$!@$ng explode. So I barely play online. Since the game came out I might have played 20 games online. Refuse to look at MLO, after playing the BETA I knew what it was going to become.

So then today I decide to go into the Online lobby and play a game. I am in DIV 4 with 488 points, which is ok, I had only lost two games online, the other three I lost where on 2 v 2 with my cousin, who is a FIFA player.

So then the guy i get matched up with is DIV 1 with 545 points. I got excited, thought this guy must be really good. He does not move from the the prem logo, I guess waiting for me to see what I picked. I go to Almeria, he rushes to Brazil. I click out of Almeria on time, to go pick Honduras.

We then go to the Pre Match screen. I pick Honduras Typical 4-4-2. He goes with the Brand New 4-1-5. Of course, I have been reading about this tactics on the forum, but had not really come across one. This would be the first time. I was disappointed this guy was one of the leaders of the whole game, with cheap shit like that.

So we go into the game, he goes straight to Kaka, and runs at me, i take the ball and he starts to pressure, So I pass around, and in my very first attack, due to his bad pressure idea, there is a huge hole David Suazo's Clone is running into. I am going to go one on one with Julio Cesar, when bam he hits me. PK, I guess he was happy, thinking I'm a noob who cant hit the PKs. Bam, put it away. The game then starts, and he pressures alot, but I'm keeping possession with out really threatening, because I have to keep alot of man behind because of the formation.

At one point he is attacking me and i take the ball away with Wilson Palacios' clone, and go on a quick counter, again using David Suazo Clone's speed and Emilio Izaguirre's clone (left back for Celtic) and I am on a 2 on one against his defend, I one two around him, and I find myself in front of goal and score.

As soon as he kicks off, its half time. He F$@$%@$%@$% QUITS!
I will never play online again, until that shit gets fixed.

 

[stahre]

Has anyone seen this? http://www.kitanamedia.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3774&start=0

I'm pretty dubious to be honest. I did an academic project a few years ago about the cognitive patterns (wonky thinking) which allow people to believe weird stuff without any real evidence, and a lot of the remarks there and in other threads where they're discussing it really remind me of that. Also, the guy who dreamt this up seems to think he's some sort of superhero, posting everywhere and shouting down anyone who complains about gameplay issues - "Jesus Christ! Just use my fix and your problems will be solved! What's WRONG with you?", which is quite amusing.

On the other hand, I did notice the game seeming sluggish when I installed the new WENB Option File. I had a couple of days of pure frustration in my French league, thinking "shit, when this game isn't fun it's REALLY no fun." Clumsy, unresponsive, sluggish, etc. But then last night everything seemed to fall back into place and I had a great four-hour session, finishing with a 4-0 crushing of Valenciennes, and everything felt fluent and responsive again. Hadn't touched the OF, or done this "fix", so I reckon it might just be the usual moodiness of PES, which has always (in all versions) seemed a better or worse game on different days, for reasons I've never understood...

I'd be interested to know if any of the sober and intelligent posters here have tried this supposed fix, or if they've noticed any weirdness after installing large OFs. Opinion seems divided on that forum, and for all I know the guys saying "OMG it works, it's undeniable" could be 12-year-olds who think they saw a UFO once because a leaf blew past their bedroom window. I mean, there's people there saying "Wow, I played with the WENB OF and then played a game in a new user profile with no OF, and the loading times were much quicker!" - which I had to admit made me laugh a lot. Hmm, quicker loading times without a massive OF on the hard drive, you say... Then there's the guy's insistence that when you install a big OF the game "reverts to older code" - um, like the disc magically remembers coding from before it was made, like memories of a past life, far out man. It's clear that most of these people don't know much about the technical aspect of computers or computer games.

Still, you never know...

I created a new profile on my PS3 and tried the game without any edit file and to be honest. It felt quite different. Better response, more 360 degree movement and so on. Sure, could be placebo but I recommend everybody to try it.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Lebert and mfmaxpower I think you both have to accept that some people here are just more in tune with the game than yourselves and the multitude of people that complain about it. That may sound condescending but it is not, I am not saying that you do not understand football or are bad at the game. What I am trying to put across is that we have conditioned our responses and input into the game to match what the game is doing. If there is a slight delay between actions due to animations we have accepted this and know to let the player perform one action fully before inputting another command, therefore the game feels perfectly fluid to us where it will feel unresponsive to you and others.
I am not trying to say PES is as deep as the ocean and if you experiece problems its down to you not knowing how to play it(although with some problems this may be the case), its just that we have adjusted out playing style to match the game rather than force our style, which is a product of playing other football games, onto it.

I hope you understand what I am trying to put across, we are not sitting here blindly defending Seabass' honour and saying that if you have problems with the game its your fault and the game is perfect in every way, we simply do not experience alot of the common faults people say the game has. If we dont have these problems we are going to say so and suggest that, as we had to, you might need more time to adapt to what the game is doing. I realise that it comes across as elitist and condescending but there is no other way to say it.
When I first came to this site I thought that Jimmy G Force was a fanboy of the highest order(sorry jimmy ) and would blindly defend the game no matter what. Now I agree with everything he says about the game, he was not and is not in love with Seabass and will defend him till his dying breath(well maybe ), he just had a better understanding of how to play the game than I did.

People need to put their egos aside, that goes for both sides of the argument, and look at things more objectively.

My car has a slight issue when shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear. It's a problem but i've become attuned to it so I'm an expert now at ensuring a fairly smooth transition when shifting to 3rd and I only infrequently stall. When my friends or family drive my car they take issue with it and the ride is less smooth, and more frequently they stall. My sister basically refuses to drive it because she's convinced either she's going to "break" my car (bless her heart) or it's going to blow up on her. You see where I'm going with this?

Just because I've become so used to driving my car that I only rarely have issues with shifting to 3rd gear does not mean a problem does not exist. I've been told i probably have an issue with my transmission, will likely need to get it fixed in the future, especially if I want to sell. If i try to sell my car in its current condition, how do you imagine a prospective buyer would respond if I denied the problem existed and told them they'd get use to it, or they just need to use their "driving brain" and it won't be such a problem.

I hope you get my point: just because some are more "in tune" with the game or like you say "have conditioned our responses and input into the game to match what the game is doing" does not mean a problem doesn't exist.

This has absolutely nothing to do with egos - I'll be the first to admit that I'm a mediocre gamer, whether it's FIFA or PES - and all to do with wanting the best football game possible. (I am however a badass driver.)

 

[UTD-PEARSON]

Edited celebrations are not showing in ML, slightly irritating but sure I'll get over it. Still lovin the pile on(gang bang?) celebration when an important goal is scored

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Jimmy, not convinced rolling the stick achieves anything that holding it diagonally wouldn't? Seems like you're doing it because it feels right, when something much simpler would suffice. Like when some people give it some with Wii Tennis because it feels right but others realise you can just flick your wrist for the same outcome.

A lot of PES's charm is that it's quite enigmatic. You don't quite know how everything truly works because Konami don't take mimicking real life literally. So you end up trying to learn by playing. When you see/feel that one or two areas are very deep, that feeling bleeds across into other areas so you perceive additional depth that might not actually be there.

This enigmatic approach is what gives PES its soul. I spent a lot of last Friday explaining this, and the importance of attention to detail in the right areas to give the feeling of more depth elsewhere, to EA and various FIFA guys.

This is actually spot on. I tested it properly last night. You get the same effect from holding diagonal as you do rotating. There is my romanticising bubble well and truly burst. Cheers for that Rom.

 

[gerd]

This is actually spot on. I tested it properly last night. You get the same effect from holding diagonal ad you do rotating. There is my romanticising bubble well and truly burst. Cheers for that Rom.

That is class Jimmy...to acknowledge that you got it wrong, the way you just did: congratulations.

 

[romagnoli]

That is class Jimmy...to acknowledge that you got it wrong, the way you just did: congratulations.

Allow me to be similarly gracious:

I do think it's a nice idea though - why not use the stick to wrap your foot around and over the ball? I also reckon you should press left to hit the left side of the ball rather than curl the ball left, and then roll the stick up to put topspin or down to put backspin on the ball - call me crazy but I like it as a principle. Don't know how intuitive others would find it though.

Nicked for FIFA.

 

[Ern Dog]

My car has a slight issue when shifting from 2nd to 3rd gear. It's a problem but i've become attuned to it so I'm an expert now at ensuring a fairly smooth transition when shifting to 3rd and I only infrequently stall. When my friends or family drive my car they take issue with it and the ride is less smooth, and more frequently they stall. My sister basically refuses to drive it because she's convinced either she's going to "break" my car (bless her heart) or it's going to blow up on her. You see where I'm going with this?

Just because I've become so used to driving my car that I only rarely have issues with shifting to 3rd gear does not mean a problem does not exist. I've been told i probably have an issue with my transmission, will likely need to get it fixed in the future, especially if I want to sell. If i try to sell my car in its current condition, how do you imagine a prospective buyer would respond if I denied the problem existed and told them they'd get use to it, or they just need to use their "driving brain" and it won't be such a problem.

I hope you get my point: just because some are more "in tune" with the game or like you say "have conditioned our responses and input into the game to match what the game is doing" does not mean a problem doesn't exist.

This has absolutely nothing to do with egos - I'll be the first to admit that I'm a mediocre gamer, whether it's FIFA or PES - and all to do with wanting the best football game possible. (I am however a badass driver.)

Mate I am not saying that no problems exist in the game and I cant argue how someone else experiences it. What I am trying to get across to you is that not every one of the common criticisms thrown at the game are because that part of the game is fundamentally broken, if there are people that do not have the same problems then how can it be? A broken TV will not display a picture for anyone, an faulty TV will display a picture to you if you catch it at a good time. But a TV that displays a picture 100% of the time for some people and 0 or 50% of the time for others is neither broke or faulty, you have to question if some people actually know how to turn the TV on.

The game takes part in a tiny little digital world of its own, everthing that happens in that world is bound by its own laws which were created by Seabass. If you cant adjust to the limits of this world you will have problems, I did myself.
Its not the same as your car, that does not work the way it is supposed to. PES works how Seabass programmed it to work and people simply do not like certain aspects of it, that does not mean its broke. The problems come with peoples perception of what should happen when they press a button and the outcome of that button press. They expect it to do things it was not designed to do, if you have to wait for a player to cycle through an animation before you can perform the next action thats because Seabass intended it that way, its not because there is a fault with response times. The fault is with the expectation that the player will break out of that animation and perform the inputted action, if you do not have that expectation and wait for the right time for your next command it will be carried out instantly.
If you dont think the game should behave in this way fine thats your opinion, but to say that it is broken and people that have adjusted to this and therefore have no response time issues are blind fanboys is wrong.
Again I am not saying the game is perfect but problems like passing and shooting being inconsistent, slow response times and stiff movement are not an issue because these parts of the game are broke they are an issue because you do not like the way the game plays, I and many others do.

You can either accept the game for what it is and get on with it or play it and wish it was something its not and get annoyed by it, its not perfect but it is what it is.

 

[Kaiser]

Mate I am not saying that no problems exist in the game and I cant argue how someone else experiences it. What I am trying to get across to you is that not every one of the common criticisms thrown at the game are because that part of the game is fundamentally broken, if there are people that do not have the same problems then how can it be? A broken TV will not display a picture for anyone, an faulty TV will display a picture to you if you catch it at a good time. But a TV that displays a picture 100% of the time for some people and 0% of the time for others is neither broke or faulty, you have to question if some people actually know how to turn the TV on.

The game takes part in a tiny little digital world of its own, everthing that happens in that world is bound by its own laws which were created by Seabass. If you cant adjust to the limits of this world you will have problems, I did myself.
Its not the same as your car, that does not work the way it is supposed to. PES works how Seabass programmed it to work and people simply do not like certain aspects of it, that does not mean its broke. The problems come with peoples perception of what should happen when they press a button and the outcome of that button press. They expect it to do things it was not designed to do, if you have to wait for a player to cycle through an animation before you can perform the next action thats because Seabass intended it that way, its not because there is a fault with response times. The fault is with the expectation that the player will break out of that animation and perform the inputted action, if you do not have that expectation and wait for the right time for your next command it will be carried out instantly.
If you dont think the game should behave in this way fine thats your opinion, but to say that it is broken and people that have adjusted to this and therefore have no response time issues are blind fanboys is wrong.
Again I am not saying the game is perfect but problems like passing and shooting being inconsistent, slow response times and stiff movement are not an issue because these parts of the game are broke they are an issue because you do not like the way the game plays, I and many others do.

Wonderfully written and spot on Tom.

 

[MindlessDrugHoover]

Jimmy, (or anyone else who knows) how effective is having a target man in this game? I know in Fifa having a big guy upfront caused alot of problems. Is it similar here? I always liked having 2 strikers up, 1 being the pace setter and the 2nd being the big guy who can hold up the ball and be dangerous from crossers.

Also in my opinion, I think the best attribute in this game falls under agility (or at least I think its agaility - the ability to turn with the ball with ease). Such a massive advantage when you have a player with high agility. Although could be dribbling. Not sure.

 

[Ern Dog]

Jimmy, (or anyone else who knows) how effective is having a target man in this game? I know in Fifa having a big guy upfront caused alot of problems. Is it similar here? I always liked having 2 strikers up, 1 being the pace setter and the 2nd being the big guy who can hold up the ball and be dangerous from crossers.

Also in my opinion, I think the best attribute in this game falls under agility (or at least I think its agaility - the ability to turn with the ball with ease). Such a massive advantage when you have a player with high agility. Although could be dribbling. Not sure.

I love a target man but I would think the necessity for one depends on the formation and other players in the team. If you have attacking midfielders or a deep SS then the target man is very handy because he will recieve the ball in an advanced area of the pitch where you might not be able to get those supporting players through other means. He will hold up the ball and allow others to get involved in a more dangerous area. This is how I use them anyway as an 'out', a option for when I cant get most of my players out my own half by short passes and movement.
But of course you need the right man to play in this position, the attributes I would look for in a player in this position are(not in order of importance): Jump, Heading, Technique, body balance and dribble accuracy. If none of the forwards in my team have these qualitys atleast in the high 70s I would not use a target man.

I think the best attribute in the game is dependant on position, but I agree that if you had to pick one agility might be it.

 

[cklarock]

I'd be interested to know if any of the sober and intelligent posters here have tried this supposed fix, or if they've noticed any weirdness after installing large OFs.

If I understand the issue right, it's primarily affecting people who install an OF, and then later install an update to that OF, or a new OF altogether over the same edit data. I don't have specifics on how the PES file system interacts with itself, but it's possible that problems with system data files might cause some offline lag-esque effects or sluggishness. Essentially, all he's really suggesting you to do is refresh your system data back to its "clean" install state.

I implemented the "fix" just to CMA as part of the Option File installation process, and it took all of 5 minutes.

 

[dannyfc2]

Jimmy, (or anyone else who knows) how effective is having a target man in this game? I know in Fifa having a big guy upfront caused alot of problems. Is it similar here? I always liked having 2 strikers up, 1 being the pace setter and the 2nd being the big guy who can hold up the ball and be dangerous from crossers.

I was of the opinion that targetmen were pretty ineffective in PES, but they can be quite handy once you're quite familiar with the game and know how to get the best out of body balance.

I've got two big 6"3 strikers who're a right handful, but admittedly they have high agility as well. Not sure how useful they'd be if they were traditional immobile target men like Koller or Toni

 

[Kaiser]

I use a target man for Besiktas called Bobo. The key with him though is that he has good dribbling and balance with a marauding card so him as a particular player can cause problems in that role. Also he is being fed from key passers such as Guti and Queresma so having players who can drop it on a sixpence also helps as the bigmans mobility can be restrictive.

As you'll know getting the formation to fit the target man must also be right and having the correct support. But I use this for Besiktas because of Bobo as a effective target man as oppose to Zigic who would miss those attributes.

 

[Kaiser]

I use a target man for Besiktas called Bobo. The key with him though is that he has good dribbling and balance with a marauding card so him as a particular player can cause problems in that role. Also he is being fed from key passers such as Guti and Queresma so having players who can drop it on a sixpence also helps as the bigmans mobility can be restrictive.

As you'll know getting the formation to fit the target man must also be right and having the correct support. But I use this for Besiktas because of Bobo as a effective target man as oppose to Zigic who would miss those attributes.

Normally I'm a 2 up front guy with one being a SS and one a CF.

 

[lebert]

Mate I am not saying that no problems exist in the game and I cant argue how someone else experiences it. What I am trying to get across to you is that not every one of the common criticisms thrown at the game are because that part of the game is fundamentally broken, if there are people that do not have the same problems then how can it be? A broken TV will not display a picture for anyone, an faulty TV will display a picture to you if you catch it at a good time. But a TV that displays a picture 100% of the time for some people and 0 or 50% of the time for others is neither broke or faulty, you have to question if some people actually know how to turn the TV on.

The game takes part in a tiny little digital world of its own, everthing that happens in that world is bound by its own laws which were created by Seabass. If you cant adjust to the limits of this world you will have problems, I did myself.
Its not the same as your car, that does not work the way it is supposed to. PES works how Seabass programmed it to work and people simply do not like certain aspects of it, that does not mean its broke. The problems come with peoples perception of what should happen when they press a button and the outcome of that button press. They expect it to do things it was not designed to do, if you have to wait for a player to cycle through an animation before you can perform the next action thats because Seabass intended it that way, its not because there is a fault with response times. The fault is with the expectation that the player will break out of that animation and perform the inputted action, if you do not have that expectation and wait for the right time for your next command it will be carried out instantly.
If you dont think the game should behave in this way fine thats your opinion, but to say that it is broken and people that have adjusted to this and therefore have no response time issues are blind fanboys is wrong.
Again I am not saying the game is perfect but problems like passing and shooting being inconsistent, slow response times and stiff movement are not an issue because these parts of the game are broke they are an issue because you do not like the way the game plays, I and many others do.

You can either accept the game for what it is and get on with it or play it and wish it was something its not and get annoyed by it, its not perfect but it is what it is.

I'm sorry Ern Dog, but I don't agree with your position on this. You say that if Seabass programs the game to work in a specific way in specific situations, then it's our fault if we don't adapt to that. Yes, that's true, and this is what gaming is. Every game has its rules, limits and controls, and you play it the way it's supposed to be played. This is what videogames are. The problem with PES is that the responses for specific situations sometimes are not the same, so there is something wrong there. I could give you tons of examples of this, but I won't waste time, I know that you or Klash will always come back with some sort of "logical" reason for that to happen. So instead of that, it'll be better to admit that some people consider some things as flaws and some other don't. But it's not fair to say that the ones that consider them as flaws is because they don't get the game. Also, if some of this flaws only happen online, well, that's not an excuse, because I play many games online and they work perfect.

Just an example of this: the shooting system. I'm tired of reading that it's not wrong, that it depens on this and that, that is super realistic (like many other things that are flaws for me). Well, I can agree that one must have to adapt to it because it has its own rules (too variable rules in my opinion), but I don't agree at all (this goes specially for Klash) that it's a reallistic system. Maybe we live in different planets, but in the one I live (planet Earth), when you push an object with low (minimum) power, the object won't fly to the sky. Is that simple. So why so many shots where you just TAP the shooting button fly up? For whatever reason/rule in the game, but that's not realistic. And there's something else that proves that there's a flaw there: Konami in the game manual (not in this PES, in ALL of them) says that the power bar determines SPEED AND HEIGHT of the shot. That's how it always worked, and that's how it doesn't work now.

To summarize my position on PES 2011 (because maybe I'm giving the wrong impression with all this posts), I think it's a GREAT GAME, which btw I don't struggle with it. I actually do pretty well, I control most of the matches I play in every single aspect (although of course I don't win all of them). What really pisses me off are specific situations that happen in specific moments that can, given the nature and competivity of this game, ruin a whole game for you. I have a clear example in my very last game: I was playing a game with some dude, he barely crossed the field to my side, I had a lot of good chances to score (a couple of them missed because of flying rockets), and I didn't score, but that's fine, that's football and sometimes you just don't score much (look at Barça lately), although in this game this happens too much. Anyways, the point is, my rival had 2 chances in the whole game (well, 1 and a half). In his 'half chance', he manages to get to the end line and cross the ball into the box, and after some rebounds the ball ends up at the feet of my CB. I smash the shoot button several times to clear the ball away because there's a lot of rivals getting close. My player does NOTHING, and after I-don't-know-how-many-button-presses, he tries to clear it, but it's too late, the rival's attacker crashes at him, gets the ball and scores while my keeper just looks what's happening. Obviously, I lose the game. Some other times, I was ahead in the scoreboard and it's just a game tier. And this happens a lot of times, not with this specific flaw, but with others as well. You may say, "this is not a flaw, it's just that your CB was thinking about his dinner for that night and that's why it took him so long to react". Well, for me that's a flaw. And I repeat, I could give soooo many examples like this with situations that have nothing to do with realisms... And you see that all your efforts in a game are ruined for some sort of weird thing that happens that really sucks.

So well, it's obvious that we're not going to agree in this matter, the important thing here is that everyone finds the way to enjoy the game, and if you guys find it already a very rewarding experience, good for you. For me it still needs a lot of improvement (and not just in the actual matches, other things should be improved in other aspects, but we can discuss that another day, now I wrote for too long and I deserved some gaming time

 

[mfmaxpower]

You can either accept the game for what it is and get on with it or play it and wish it was something its not and get annoyed by it, *its not perfect but it is what it is.

I actually do all of the above - I accept it, I enjoy it, and I get annoyed with it!

But I also point out what i see are flaws and provide what I hope to be constructive feedback in the hopes the game will continue to improve.

I get that what i consider to be flaws may not be flaws in your opinion. The problem lies when, instead of responding to criticism of the game by explaining why they see it differently, responses like yours argue that the problem is not the game but the gamer, because the gamer either isn't "in tune" enough or isn't using his "football brain." Instead of responding to the criticism, there is tendency here to respond to the criticizer. That's frustrating because it doesn't help the other side understand your point of view.

Example:

The problems come with peoples perception of what should happen when they press a button and the outcome of that button press. They expect it to do things it was not designed to do, if you have to wait for a player to cycle through an animation before you can perform the next action thats because Seabass intended it that way, its not because there is a fault with response times. The fault is with the expectation that the player will break out of that animation and perform the inputted action, if you do not have that expectation and wait for the right time for your next command it will be carried out instantly.

First of all, what you said there is true of every video game under the sun - anyone who's played video games knows that you can't expect an action to be carried out until the preceding one is completed, whether it's waiting for a dribbling animation in PES or a reloading animation in a shooter. I really don't think people not understanding how inputs and animations work is an issue - your talking video gaming 101 here.

Seabass isn't above reproach, he isn't perfect, and i think after the recent years it's obvious that just because he intended something to be a certain way doesn't mean it's ideal or even suitable.*My point is, that rather than criticize another person's ability to understand and play the game - again, most posters on this forum aren't exactly casual noobs - id rather see people's reasoning for defending the systems under question.

For example, to continue on your topic of animations, there are some animations that while I love what they are intended to do, I think in there current form are slightly exaggerated, unnecessarily. The particular animation I'm thinking of is a stumbling animation, and while I appreciate its intention - to remove the player momentarily from the action to avoid the unrealistic and near-instantaneous recovery times found in FIFA - I do believe there are instances when this animation causes a greater penalty than it realistically should. And because at times the penalty can seem overly done and not in-line with what you would expect to see in a real world situation, it can feel unresponsive. This specific animation doesn't need to be scrapped - it works in some situations that it's applied - but I believe either it needs slight tweaking for some situations, if that's possible, or the solution may simply be that more animations are needed.

So right there is an example of how imo the game is less than ideal, and it's representative of the bigger claims of unresponsiveness that people have. Now ignoring whether or not "Seabass intended it that way" it would be most helpful to hear a defense for why examples like this are not causes for criticism or areas needing improvement, rather than reading accusations that someone just isn't in tune enough with the game.

I have no problems with the defense that people may have the wrong expectations or understanding per se, in fact I could imagine that would be an issue for many people used to FIFA and new to PES, especially due to FIFA's unrealistic movement and reaction times, but my impression is that most people on evo-web with such concerns are experienced PES players with already a decent idea of what to expect from the game. So, like I said, I just think conversation would be more productive if rather than defending the game by criticizing the criticizer, those who disagree with such criticisms actually explained why they thought this or that feature, whatever the topic is, is fine as it is.

**Edit: wow, so lebert's post above, and his issues with the shooting system: perfect example of what i'm talking about. On one hand I love the variety of shooting in PES but i also find it unintuitive how pressure sensitive it is - it's weird to me that you need to hold down the pass button so much longer than the shoot button. There's also imo a greater level of satisfaction from scoring a screamer when you have to hold down the button a little longer than a tap, but maybe that's just me. Overall i'm fairly satisfied with the shooting system but I would like to see this tweaked.

 

[tc811]

This is actually spot on. I tested it properly last night. You get the same effect from holding diagonal as you do rotating. There is my romanticising bubble well and truly burst. Cheers for that Rom.

Great, this is the way I've been doing it based on my experimentation in training mode. So if you're taking a 'left side' inswinging corner kick with a right footed player, you would point at 10 o clock and strike R2 at the point of impact, right? It seems like this kind of delivery allows for more pace and dip at the expense of curl.

 

[Simcut]

Has anyone tried taking corners and pressing triangle and X just before the player makes contact with the ball? I wonder if that works like it does on free kicks?

 

[Pere Ubu]

Noticed something pretty weird last night.

We all know about those unsaveable free kicks the CPU likes to score. Less than 30 yards out, facing the goal, player with half-decent free kick stats... bang. Almost every single time. Ball arcs slowly into the corner, goalie staggers over at 1mph and just dives under it like a twat, even if it would have been easier to make the save. Makes you spit.

Anyway, like many people I've been trying L1+R3 to move my goalkeeper along the line. It looks totally stupid, of course - in real life the wall will stand in a certain place, and the goalie will stand the other side of it, meaning he has to shuttle along his line to save a good shot, but we all know that in PES2011 he never gets there. So you have to move him into the middle of the goal, so that he's standing behind his wall. Realistically he'd never stand there because he'd be unsighted, but hey, that's the way it is. At least he'll now save free kicks, sometimes (and when he does, it makes the previously unstoppable FK look appalling... because AI free kicks rarely fly into the top corner, they seem to drop into the net very slowly at about waist-height, so if the goalie's there, it's a simple catch).

So far, so shit. I'm sure we've all tried this. Is it just me though - sometimes L1+R3 won't give you control of your keeper? It just won't switch, however many times you try, or it does switch but he won't move, he's just frozen and you have to quickly switch the cursor back to a defender. Right? Well I think there's a pattern to this.

Seems to me that when you can't get control of your goalie, that means the AI is going to miss the target. Every time the cursor wouldn't switch to the keeper I was thinking "oh shit", but in every case that FK either hit the post or went wide. Whenever I did manage to get control of the keeper, guess what? The shot was on target.

If this isn't just a coincidence then it's pretty crap. Sure, the outcome of an AI free kick (cpu-controlled FK taker v cpu-controlled goalkeeper) is going to be scripted, and the script will be in place before the shot is taken. It has to be that way. But this issue makes that scripting a bit too obvious and intrusive, and kind of ruins the drama and tension of a free kick situation.

It's bad enough as it is - moving the goalie into an unrealistic position makes the free kick saveable (sometimes), leaving him standing where he should be standing means the cpu will score 9 times out of 10. That's crap. But effectively letting you know in advance whether the shot will be on target or not... that's completely ridiculous. Has anyone else noticed this? Am I going mad, or is this actually a definite pattern?

 

[kiev123]

YouTube - PES 2011 offside given
I'm astounded as to how this goal was given
Clear daylight between Drogba and the last man

 

[Ern Dog]

Right this is my last post on the subject and it may be long because I am not sure that I am fully explaining my self.

I'm sorry Ern Dog, but I don't agree with your position on this. You say that if Seabass programs the game to work in a specific way in specific situations, then it's our fault if we don't adapt to that. Yes, that's true, and this is what gaming is. Every game has its rules, limits and controls, and you play it the way it's supposed to be played. This is what videogames are.

Mate you do agree with me, you start saying you dont but then go onto say that its true

The problem with PES is that the responses
for specific situations sometimes are not the same, so there is something wrong there.

This is EXACTLY what PES is all about, there is nothing wrong with the game, that is what is supposed to happen within it and why many people love it.

it'll be better to admit that some people consider some things as flaws and some other don't. But it's not fair to say that the ones that consider them as flaws is because they don't get the game.

This is where I dont think you or mfmaxpower understand my argument and his car gear shifter analogy shows this. I am not saying that if you think the game is flawed you do not understand the game or you should learn to play around them. I am trying to say that people all over forums are saying that certain gameplay mechanics are broken. By broken they mean that they just dont work or are faulty, these are the people that I would say do not understand the game and need to take more time to learn it.

I think that the online in this game is faulty. At times it is awful, I played a game earlier and it was like playing at -10 speed. This is a fault with the game.

There are times when your team mates are out of place. I have a problem with this often. If I wrote this problem on a message board and then had a group of people telling me they have studied the AI of their team mates and can position them in gameplan and set the tactics so that they are always where they are expected to be, I would accept that these team mates are just following AI routines and I have not got either the cognitive abilty or spent long enough learning these routines to be able to get my team playing how I want. I would not say the game has a fault, is crap, take it back to the shop and tell those people on the forum that the problem is with the game and they are just fan boys covering up the games faults. This is what I see(not from you) and am defending the "you dont understand the game" argument from. If after extended play I still could not get my team mates to behave how I want, I will consider this a flaw with the games design but I will not think that the game is broke or there is a fault with it because it is working in a way it has been designed to and it is clearly understood by some.

Just an example of this: the shooting system. I'm tired of reading that it's not wrong, that it depens on this and that, that is super realistic (like many other things that are flaws for me). Well, I can agree that one must have to adapt to it because it has its own rules (too variable rules in my opinion), but I don't agree at all (this goes specially for Klash) that it's a reallistic system. Maybe we live in different planets, but in the one I live (planet Earth), when you push an object with low (minimum) power, the object won't fly to the sky. Is that simple. So why so many shots where you just TAP the shooting button fly up? For whatever reason/rule in the game, but that's not realistic. And there's something else that proves that there's a flaw there: Konami in the game manual (not in this PES, in ALL of them) says that the power bar determines SPEED AND HEIGHT of the shot. That's how it always worked, and that's how it doesn't work now.

I do not agree with your last sentence but if you think the shooting is flawed then ok, I will suggest you try and take more time to understand the system and if you still dont like it then fine. I wont argue with that, thats your opinion. If you tell me that it is broken or faulty and I and others have no trouble with it I will argue that the system is not broken and that you do not understand it.

I think there is a breakdown in understanding between us. People like me and Klash are being defensive because when the game was new there were alot of people saying that certain things in the game just dont work when they do and you guys dont like to see us say that "you just dont understand the game". There is a difference between saying the game is broke and that you have a problem with the game, which is what I am trying to say and you agree with me here I think. I am sometimes probably reading people saying they have problems as them saying the game just does not work in certain areas and when I try to explain that the game is not fundamentally broken it just takes time to learn, you and mfmax are seeing what I have said as you cannot have a problem with this area of the game because it is perfect and will if understood perform to your expectations. It wont, it will though if understood perform how it was designed to. As I have said if you have a problem with the shooting then you do, I am not arguing that. I think the system works how it should, how it is programmed to and is in line with the shooting from previous PES games. That does not mean I think it is perfect, I dont but it is not broken which is what I have seen said.

To summarize my position on PES 2011 (because maybe I'm giving the wrong impression with all this posts), I think it's a GREAT GAME, which btw I don't struggle with it. I actually do pretty well, I control most of the matches I play in every single aspect (although of course I don't win all of them). What really pisses me off are specific situations that happen in specific moments that can, given the nature and competivity of this game, ruin a whole game for you.

As I said mate, this is PES, this is how it works and you have to learn to live with it, it aint gonna change.
In my younger days I broke multiple controllers because of this
but now that I am older and not such an idiot I just laugh at these moments because I know thats the game I am playing and this will happen.

I have a clear example in my very last game: I was playing a game with some dude, he barely crossed the field to my side, I had a lot of good chances to score (a couple of them missed because of flying rockets), and I didn't score, but that's fine, that's football and sometimes you just don't score much (look at Barça lately), although in this game this happens too much. Anyways, the point is, my rival had 2 chances in the whole game (well, 1 and a half). In his 'half chance', he manages to get to the end line and cross the ball into the box, and after some rebounds the ball ends up at the feet of my CB. I smash the shoot button several times to clear the ball away because there's a lot of rivals getting close. My player does NOTHING, and after I-don't-know-how-many-button-presses, he tries to clear it, but it's too late, the rival's attacker crashes at him, gets the ball and scores while my keeper just looks what's happening. Obviously, I lose the game. Some other times, I was ahead in the scoreboard and it's just a game tier. And this happens a lot of times, not with this specific flaw, but with others as well. You may say, "this is not a flaw, it's just that your CB was thinking about his dinner for that night and that's why it took him so long to react". Well, for me that's a flaw. And I repeat, I could give soooo many examples like this with situations that have nothing to do with realisms... And you see that all your efforts in a game are ruined for some sort of weird thing that happens that really sucks.

That sounds more like a lag problem to me rather than something to do with stats. I get this and as I have said the online is faulty everyone gets laggy games, Konami are notorious for PES being sh!t online.

So well, it's obvious that we're not going to agree in this matter, the important thing here is that everyone finds the way to enjoy the game, and if you guys find it already a very rewarding experience, good for you. For me it still needs a lot of improvement (and not just in the actual matches, other things should be improved in other aspects, but we can discuss that another day, now I wrote for too long and I deserved some gaming time

I actually think we agree, you said so at the start of the post. I think people were not being fully understood for some reason or another. My argument is not with you or anyone else having problems with the game, its with people saying that mechanics within it are broken when they are not.

 

[Steekbal]

YouTube - PES 2011 offside given
I'm astounded as to how this goal was given
Clear daylight between Drogba and the last man

Something similar happened to me in my Palermo League. It was quite frankly shocking how far offside the AI striker was, I think they might have gone a little overboard with this 'realistic' touch.