PES 2011 Discussion thread

[sincover]

PES won't split into arcade and sim. Otherwise they'd split manual and assisted controls as FIFA does. It's not how Konami roll.

Manual and assisted for the most part already exist in PES, it's just controlled by a modifier button. I prefer Konami's approach to the manual game but I can see why EA chose to differ the control schemes.


LONG READ AHEAD....
...................

The animation system needs improvement, but I'm not sure how. PES's animations are a big part of what makes each player feel unique, but it's also probably the biggest reason why people complain about player responsiveness/sluggishness.
I've now had 6 (Fifa) mates come over and play it on the PC, and while they enjoy the pace and overall flow of the game, they absolutely hate the animations. Their number one complaint: being stuck in one animation while trying to input another command.

PES veterans might overlook this feature/flaw but casual players most definitely do not. Culturally, it makes perfect sense. Japanese (3D) games have traditionally relied on exquisite, long and unskippable animations to enhance the 'feeling' of the onscreen avatar. On the other hand, western (3d) games have always been quicker/more fluid. This is what I consider the main difference in philosophy between PES and FIFA.

Which philosophy replicates the football we watch every week? Neither. Fifa's reliance on ultra responsiveness and impossibly quick animations creates gameplay that defies reality, while PES's slower/ often unskippable animations creates frustration among the masses.

After a lot of thought, I can't think of a workable solution. Adding 1000 more animations and removing the ultra long ones would help, but would probably also lessen the importance of individuality.

Any thoughts on this gentlemen/ladies (if any)?

 

[mfmaxpower]

PES won't split into arcade and sim. Otherwise they'd split manual and assisted controls as FIFA does. It's not how Konami roll.

Agreed. Don't see it in the cards for PES. Don't see the need either.

Manual and assisted for the most part already exist in PES, it's just controlled by a modifier button. I prefer Konami's approach to the manual game but I can see why EA chose to differ the control schemes.

I like that EA gives a variety of control options though I like Konami's mix of assisted and manual, which isn't possible in FIFA. I'm not a fan of needing an additional modifier button for manual passing - neither is it intuitive or convenient but there's already too much going on with the shoulder buttons - but IMO the passing system is solid and only needs further refining.

The animation system needs improvement, but I'm not sure how. PES's animations are a big part of what makes each player feel unique, but it's also probably the biggest reason why people complain about player responsiveness/sluggishness.
I've now had 6 (Fifa) mates come over and play it on the PC, and while they enjoy the pace and overall flow of the game, they absolutely hate the animations. Their number one complaint: being stuck in one animation while trying to input another command.

PES veterans might overlook this feature/flaw but casual players most definitely do not. Culturally, it makes perfect sense. Japanese (3D) games have traditionally relied on exquisite, long and unskippable animations to enhance the 'feeling' of the onscreen avatar. On the other hand, western (3d) games have always been quicker/more fluid. This is what I consider the main difference in philosophy between PES and FIFA.

You hit the nail on the head. Konami's insistence on automation and unskippable animations is symbolic of the larger criticisms of the Japanese game industry in general. While the Western developers evolved toward greater freedom and control, Japanese games remain heavily dependent on forcing the gamer to follow along as the game's story unfolds, using different mixtures of user freedom and controlled/automated instances. Final Fantasy is a great example of a failure to evolve. Metal Gear Solid is the opposite, with MSG using enough of the right mix to work.

Which philosophy replicates the football we watch every week? Neither. Fifa's reliance on ultra responsiveness and impossibly quick animations creates gameplay that defies reality, while PES's slower/ often unskippable animations creates frustration among the masses.

After a lot of thought, I can't think of a workable solution. Adding 1000 more animations and removing the ultra long ones would help, but would probably also lessen the importance of individuality.

Any thoughts on this gentlemen/ladies (if any)?

Easy - the right mixture of both philosophies.

Depending on how difficult it would be for FIFA to institute foot planting and better inertia, plus slow down some of the transitions between off the ball movements, FIFA appears to me the closer of the two. However, in favor of PES is Konami's philosophy and emphasis in realistic movements.

When it comes to freedom, responsiveness, and controls, it's sort of like FIFA needs to take ONE step back and Konami needs to take TWO steps forward. Which is more difficult?

 

[lebert]

Really

This is the issue for me, people overrate themselves! They think because they were good at PES6 that everything should just fall into place for them. They aren't willing to understand the game, it's very clear your not one of those people looking for a sim, more just a fun smooth game!

The game is totally different and far deeper than PES6 ever was. You simply can't play it in the same way you did other football games, you need to re learn it from scratch!

You comment on the shooting especially shows this, your obviously not paying attention to your players body position when shooting, with he passing again, are you checking your players stat on who's good or bad at passing, how consistent is he, what is his stronger foot? It's not PES6 anymore where you just plug in and play!

I don't know what you mean to "overrate" myself... probably "expert" wasn't the best word to use (sorry I'm not native english speaker). I should have said "veteran" or something like that. Anyways, to "overrate" first there should be a rating system, right?

If you read my entire post (which btw I don't blame you i you haven't, it was damn long ), you can see that I don't complain about the new playing system, or how deep it is, or how hard to control it is. Actually, 90% of the matches I've played I totally control the game (possesion, goal chances, chances conceded...). So that's not an issue for me, I do fine. What I complain about is the huge amount of flaws that the game has. Maybe, and only maybe, when I try the game offline, some of the won't show up so often. But still it's not an excuse for konami, because I play many other games online and none of them has this kind of issues.

About shooting, I bet that you can't always make the same kind of shoot intentionally 3 times in a row having the same player in the same position, speed and direction. I tried, and it's not possible. Maybe you truly are an expert and can do that, but as many other people write here, what would be the point of that? Making a game that only experts can enjoy? Do you think that konami really wants that? I think it's more like a coincidence that it turned out this way, if this is what's really happening (which I don't believe).

The point here is, why is it so difficult to admit that this game has a lot of stuff wrong? Why there's always an "explanation" to every (or most) of the flaws that players find? And the explanation is always the same, a sugar-covered "because you're not good enough". Well, that takes me to the beginning of my post: if a veteran like me, who loves football games and doesn't mind playing and playing to get the most of the game, finds so many difficulties, what is going to happen with more casual players? That was the good thing of the old PESs, both casual players and total gamers could enjoy the game at different levels, but it was extremely difficult that a casual player beat a pro gamer (it could still happen though, it happened to me a few times lol). With PES 2011, it's not that difficult that this happens, not because of the gameplay, but because of the flaws that can ruin any game in any moment. That's what my post was for.

 

[klashman69]

Manual and assisted for the most part already exist in PES, it's just controlled by a modifier button. I prefer Konami's approach to the manual game but I can see why EA chose to differ the control schemes.


LONG READ AHEAD....
...................

The animation system needs improvement, but I'm not sure how. PES's animations are a big part of what makes each player feel unique, but it's also probably the biggest reason why people complain about player responsiveness/sluggishness.
I've now had 6 (Fifa) mates come over and play it on the PC, and while they enjoy the pace and overall flow of the game, they absolutely hate the animations. Their number one complaint: being stuck in one animation while trying to input another command.

PES veterans might overlook this feature/flaw but casual players most definitely do not. Culturally, it makes perfect sense. Japanese (3D) games have traditionally relied on exquisite, long and unskippable animations to enhance the 'feeling' of the onscreen avatar. On the other hand, western (3d) games have always been quicker/more fluid. This is what I consider the main difference in philosophy between PES and FIFA.

Which philosophy replicates the football we watch every week? Neither. Fifa's reliance on ultra responsiveness and impossibly quick animations creates gameplay that defies reality, while PES's slower/ often unskippable animations creates frustration among the masses.

After a lot of thought, I can't think of a workable solution. Adding 1000 more animations and removing the ultra long ones would help, but would probably also lessen the importance of individuality.

Any thoughts on this gentlemen/ladies (if any)?

Well it's a million dollar question. I mean I'm in the same boat as you! The game definitely needs an upgrade in animations, it the number 1 priority for next year! Just it's a lot easier for use to say 'Upgrade them' 'They are too robotic' without really understanding what actually has to be implemented.

I wouldn't say making the game totally responsive is the answer, PES 2011 responsiveness is very good for me, there's some instances involving the R1 button here players instead of putting their foot on the ball they continue running which drives me mad, and some other instances i'll tak about later but i don't think it really needs a complete overhaul!

What i do think is needed is a proper guide how to play the game from Konami. I know, there's too many people who jut don't know how to play it. I don't mean those rip off books i mean a ingame video and one uploaded on youtube explaining how the dribbling/shooting/passing works! This is again down to the shit marketing campaign! i fell Konami should have made much more of a n effort with this, the atmosphere isn't as vibrant with PES as it was and people find it much easier to criticize Konami than keep the faith like they did years ago.

Anyway back tot he point I was thinking mainly along the lines of adding more 'pre' animations for passing, shooting, crossing and especially trapping air and ground balls.

So if there's one thing which seems most clear to me which urgently needs looking into is this. For example when you clear the ball or the opposition clears it, it will sore int eh air, now a centre back or a full back will watch the ball and automatically position his body in line with it to collect it.

In PES they stand there like a robot, waiting. and the animation which shows the player controlling the ball is too quick and dosen't look real. In real life every player will waiting for the ball would augment his body position in preparation for the ball rather than stand like a statue!
It's the same with normal passing. I believe as soon as a player becomes aware of a incoming pass they should start a 'preparation' animation which will lead to trapping the ball.

Same goes with the dribbling which is great but would be nice to see players to have a 'positional awareness animation'! So for example if your jogging slowly along the flanks, certain players will have their head up with their body facing the penalty area so the cross with not only look more natural but the animations will blend better.

The best example is someone like Rosicky! If I'm running up the flank slowly with him, he would run at a slight angle with his body focused on making a pass into the centre. I do believe it should be flexible so players would angle their bodies towards teammates, thing is knowing Konami, everything has to be stat related so i depends how hard this is too implement for everyone!

This is badly needed for defenders though! needs to be more blocking animations and more 'urgent' tackles and jockeying animations in the box. For example the jockeying animation will be different if you tried it near your box compared to trying it on the halfway line!

So I'd say the key is to implement to just more crossing, shooting animations etc.. make adaptable animations in place to help everything blend together better!

This is just the start i haven't even touche on the non existent air battles and tricks which needs a huge upgrade!

 

[lebert]

I edited my post mate, I do agree with some of what you say but things like the passing being inconsistent, players stuck to the floor and crap response times are not and never have been an issue in my experience.
I would say that of the goals I concede easily 80% come directly from a mistake I have made and none, well maybe some from crap player switching, from a flaw in the game.
If you are getting lag free games I am very jealous, if I play guys on my friends list they are often very good but playing random people from all over europe it is often laggy.
Its all very well saying FIFA has none of these problems mate but dont say that its a flawless game, I have been on FIFA forums and know from what FIFA players in here say that its far from the truth.
Apart from the things I have already whinged about in the previous few posts and a few other small issues the game is pretty much perfect in my opinion.

For all the flaws related with bad response of what you do with your controller and what happens in the game, I'll wait and see what happens when I play offline. But there are many others that have nothing to do with crappy response (bad offside calls, player switching, shooting, referee calling fouls when you still have possesion and can make a dangerous play...). For the shooting, I've read some people saying that it's about player position, speed, ratings, bla bla bla... YES! That's how it's always been in PES. Only that now it sucks. It's nearly impossible to do the exact kind of shot that you want. And if what all this people say was true (shoot depends on speed, ratings...) then it would be totally unrealistic, because why in the world a player has to do always the same shot in the same situation? That's not football, that doesn't make sense. And we're talking about the super-realistic football game, right?

With the players stuck in the floor, it's very easy to prove. On any goal keeper goal kick, just try to move the player who is going to receive the ball. Can you? Or isn't he stuck with the oponents player? I press R2 almost everytime to move the player out from there, and I only achieved that once. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, please let me know if there's any other way. In FIFA, for example, this is waaaaay better resolved. But of course, if it's in FIFA, it sucks, no matter what it is. And talking about FIFA, I can talk about my experience, and I barely saw any flaw in that game. The gameplay sucked, it's boring and hal of the time players are stuck to eachother fighting for the ball. But controls are precise and responsive, when you pass the ball, the ball goes where you pass it, when you shoot, you can decide (approximately) how you want that shot to be...

If you think that the game is pretty much perfect and you really enjoy it, then I'm happy for you. But for me it's not good enough, and I still see many things that can be fixed. It's a big improvement from PES 2010, i already said that in my first post, but far from what I expect. For me, right now, the perfect game would be a mix of PES playability and FIFA controls, that simple and that difficult at the same time.

 

[lebert]

Im not saying this is your problem though lebert.

lol thanks for pointing that out

 

[klashman69]

If you read my entire post (which btw I don't blame you i you haven't, it was damn long ), you can see that I don't complain about the new playing system, or how deep it is, or how hard to control it is. Actually, 90% of the matches I've played I totally control the game (possesion, goal chances, chances conceded...). So that's not an issue for me, I do fine. What I complain about is the huge amount of flaws that the game has. Maybe, and only maybe, when I try the game offline, some of the won't show up so often. But still it's not an excuse for konami, because I play many other games online and none of them has this kind of issues.

I read all of it, what team do you use?

About shooting, I bet that you can't always make the same kind of shoot intentionally 3 times in a row having the same player in the same position, speed and direction. I tried, and it's not possible. Maybe you truly are an expert and can do that, but as many other people write here, what would be the point of that? Making a game that only experts can enjoy? Do you think that konami really wants that? I think it's more like a coincidence that it turned out this way, if this is what's really happening (which I don't believe).

Maxpower i hope your reading this because he's proving what I'm saying is right. lebert and me don't want the same game. When i shoot in the same place place 3 times, i don't want the same shot, if i tried that in real life, even if i felt good and tried my best to try dot he same thing 3 times there will ALWAYS be some sort of variance. also when you consider i don't think lebert takes his players body position into account it's confirming that he's dosen't quite get how the game works.

Thing is lebert, you must breakaway from the old system where you would find the sweetspot and score easily. It's about making sure your player body position is balanced correctly when shooting. Loads of stats also come into account but the main thing is don't expect to score if you player is too far over the ball. It's trying to simulate what you do in real life.

The shooting isn't wrong. it's just you don't understand how it works! What you said is what i pretty much expected you to say! You want a game, not a sim!

The point here is, why is it so difficult to admit that this game has a lot of stuff wrong? Why there's always an "explanation" to every (or most) of the flaws that players find? And the explanation is always the same, a sugar-covered "because you're not good enough".

Depends what flaws your talking about entirely! Your example of the shooting doesn't wash with me. I'd listen more to people like Sincover who speak of flaws i totally agree with (Body collision detection, animation blending etc..)

Well, that takes me to the beginning of my post: if a veteran like me, who loves football games and doesn't mind playing and playing to get the most of the game, finds so many difficulties, what is going to happen with more casual players?

Again i believe what you said you identified yourself to be someone who is stuck using the old methods and PES on the Ps2 and hasn't fully adapted to the new game. What do you define as a casual anyway? I mean my mate who normal plays fifa i beat last sunday. He doesn't play the new PES 2011 much, so is he a casual., he didn't complain too much about the controls! I'd say the casual player would get a general idea how the game works then he'll make a decision if he likes it or not! TBH Casuals have their game with FIFA! The questions more what would attract a genuine casual to the game int he first place?

That was the good thing of the old PESs, both casual players and total gamers could enjoy the game at different levels, but it was extremely difficult that a casual player beat a pro gamer (it could still happen though, it happened to me a few times lol). With PES 2011, it's not that difficult that this happens, not because of the gameplay, but because of the flaws that can ruin any game in any moment. That's what my post was for.

Finally PES has moved on and adapted! The game your looking for, that 'PES 6 feeling' online with the whole casuals vs hardcore games is FIFA! FIFA is fast, responsive, looks great and easy to play. How the hell is PES going to compete with that? Do casuals care about if the player they are in control of is being simulated to dribble and turn using his stronger foot nonly depending on his stats? No they don't they just want all intense action which FIFA delivers! Despite being as deep as a wet sock!Especially with all the licenses FIFA has?

PES has set it's target market to the simulation players who are similar to me, only play one game, don't really take much interest in other games (I'm not a gamer at all! sort of grown out of it, i only play PES and FIFA because i live football)


I'm started to say this that PES must work on it's animations and work on the secondary issues such as air battles, collisions etc.. but NOT change it's policy for casuals. PES would simply die trying to take fifa on at it's own game! Instead they need to provide videos for people to understand how the game works!

With the players stuck in the floor, it's very easy to prove. On any goal keeper goal kick, just try to move the player who is going to receive the ball. Can you? Or isn't he stuck with the oponents player? I press R2 almost everytime to move the player out from there, and I only achieved that once. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, please let me know if there's any other way.

Super cancel? R1+R2?

For me, right now, the perfect game would be a mix of PES playability and FIFA controls, that simple and that difficult at the same time.

Talk to romanogli on this site, go here:
http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2111298#post2111298
Please write down what you want improved in FIFA because i can't see PES catering for what you want!

What i believe you are searching for is FIFA 08 as a base with better responsiveness and FIFA 11's controls! That will hopefully be FIFA 12

 

[lancers]

For all the flaws related with bad response of what you do with your controller and what happens in the game, I'll wait and see what happens when I play offline. But there are many others that have nothing to do with crappy response (bad offside calls, player switching, shooting, referee calling fouls when you still have possesion and can make a dangerous play...). For the shooting, I've read some people saying that it's about player position, speed, ratings, bla bla bla... YES! That's how it's always been in PES. Only that now it sucks. It's nearly impossible to do the exact kind of shot that you want. And if what all this people say was true (shoot depends on speed, ratings...) then it would be totally unrealistic, because why in the world a player has to do always the same shot in the same situation? That's not football, that doesn't make sense. And we're talking about the super-realistic football game, right?

With the players stuck in the floor, it's very easy to prove. On any goal keeper goal kick, just try to move the player who is going to receive the ball. Can you? Or isn't he stuck with the oponents player? I press R2 almost everytime to move the player out from there, and I only achieved that once. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, please let me know if there's any other way. In FIFA, for example, this is waaaaay better resolved. But of course, if it's in FIFA, it sucks, no matter what it is. And talking about FIFA, I can talk about my experience, and I barely saw any flaw in that game. The gameplay sucked, it's boring and hal of the time players are stuck to eachother fighting for the ball. But controls are precise and responsive, when you pass the ball, the ball goes where you pass it, when you shoot, you can decide (approximately) how you want that shot to be...

If you think that the game is pretty much perfect and you really enjoy it, then I'm happy for you. But for me it's not good enough, and I still see many things that can be fixed. It's a big improvement from PES 2010, i already said that in my first post, but far from what I expect. For me, right now, the perfect game would be a mix of PES playability and FIFA controls, that simple and that difficult at the same time.

For goal kicks into the midfield area you are going to have to hold R2 and move your player slightly to disengage the defender. Watch your player on the radar you will have to move back into position quickly. It doesn't work every time but you can unlock yourself most of the time. You will need to start moving as soon as the goalie makes his kick. You will need to switch to this player as soon as you can. Watch the radar.

 

[lancers]

I think a part of the charm of this game is that everything is NOT spelled out in the manual.

 

[lebert]

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, though not to the extent that the flaws in PES ruin the experience (yet). Everyone here who refuses to accept that shortcomings exist that are not all the fault of the gamer (I'm looking at you Klash) are simply deluded by fanboyism. PES 2011 is the best PES on the current gen systems, by far, but it's not come close to its potential. I'm still enjoying it but it has serious flaws.

I'm glad to see that there's other people that see the same stuff that I see.

Funny, the EA forums are filled with comments like this. At least Konami have the excuse that they included a major overhaul to their game. FIFA is FULL of bugs and issues while also being a minimal upgrade over FIFA 10, and an arguably a worse game than the WC game as a whole.

And here's where you and I completely diverge. FIFA 11's gameplay is a joke. It is a farce of a football game. Yes, it is fun. Yes, the controls are responsive and intuitive. But FIFA lacks the fundamentals, the depth, and maybe most importantly, the overall balance in gameplay that PES has nailed pretty well.

Don't get me wrong, you can re-read my post. I say that PES gameplay is better and I like it better, but on it's own proposal (which again, I don't like), FIFA does a better job. Of all the bugs and flaws that you say that people complain about in other forums, I don't know, I talk about my experience of playing that game non-stop for a week, and I didn't see major flaws (at least playing online). In PES 2011, since game 1, I could see all this flaws. And the more I play, the more flaws I find.

On balance, this is where FIFA is frustrating me to no end. The game is over-physical and over-defensive. The off-the-ball animations are so beyond the realm of real world physics that players make tackles, movements, and runs that defy physics. The defensive animations are such a joke that I've now gotten to the point where I never press a single button on defense unless it's absolutely necessary, which is never. The auto-tackling is so overpowered dribblers stand no chance. PES at least feels like football, the ebb and flow is correct, etc. FIFA is unbalanced in key areas all over the pitch. It's a joke. Fun, but not realistic. But FIFA is selling like hot-cakes because it does a phenomenal job of giving the visual illusion of realism and authenticity.

That's exactly what I didn't like of FIFA.

 

[lebert]

Yeah but there's a massive difference between difficulty due to non-intuitive controls, unresponsiveness, lack of control, etc. VS difficulty because gameplay concepts are deep and hard to master. The problem I see people complain about, like lebert, tend to be the former, not the latter. PES fans are PES fans because of the latter. There are loads of people out there looking for a deeper experience than FIFA but aren't satisfied with what PES has to offer.

You nailed it. It's not that difficult to understand, right? But apparently, if we don't like how something works in PES 2011, we're just casual gamers that want arcade action and not depth of play. Apparently, when something is wrong in PES is because it's realistic and we don't understand about football dynamics (which, btw, I played for maaaaaaaany years). So if I don't like this 'realistic' shooting system, which is so realistic that even the smallest tap of the button sends the ball to the sky instead of doing a weak shot, it's because I don't understand the game and I want to play it as if I was playing PES 6. And I'm overrating myself, which is funny when it comes from someone who tells you that you don't get the game and makes you understand that he does. I guess it's that, this game is made only for 1% of gamers and Konami doesn't care about selling a lot of copies and beating FIFA, they just care about making a few of them happy.

 

[lebert]

I read all of it, what team do you use?

I play MLO with some players that I bought that improve a little bit the default players. The only 'star' players I have are Dempsey and Pandev.

Maxpower i hope your reading this because he's proving what I'm saying is right. lebert and me don't want the same game. When i shoot in the same place place 3 times, i don't want the same shot, if i tried that in real life, even if i felt good and tried my best to try dot he same thing 3 times there will ALWAYS be some sort of variance. also when you consider i don't think lebert takes his players body position into account it's confirming that he's dosen't quite get how the game works.

Thing is lebert, you must breakaway from the old system where you would find the sweetspot and score easily. It's about making sure your player body position is balanced correctly when shooting. Loads of stats also come into account but the main thing is don't expect to score if you player is too far over the ball. It's trying to simulate what you do in real life.

The shooting isn't wrong. it's just you don't understand how it works! What you said is what i pretty much expected you to say! You want a game, not a sim!

You keep saying that you want a simulator, as if I wanted an arcade game or something, but you really confuse me with your understanding of a simulator, so I have to ask you, have you ever played football? Because I have, and for example, talking about the shooting system that you say is so great, waht you say doesn't make sense. So you're telling me that realistic is that you can't choose where you want to shoot, and that most of the shots go up to the sky? Dude, in real football, you can always choose the kind of shot, including the power you want to give it. Of course, the ball won't go always to the same exact place, but you can aim for a low shot or high shot with different amounts of power. In this PES, for example, if my attacker is running alone, getting into the bos from one corner, facing the keeper, and I just tap the shoot button (minimim power), how in the world the ball goes most of the times far above the goal? You call that realistic? Realistic would be that, since I'm giving it the minimum amount of power, the ball goes low and slow, right? Specially when the game manual says that the shooting bar determines POWER and HEIGHT of the shot. So who is wrong here? The game or the manual?

I could give you so many examples about unrealism in this game... is it real that defender have some sort of boost when chasing attackers? Is it real that they can take away the ball from any position, even from behind? Is it real that through balls can easily cross the defense line many times with defenders just staring at them?

Again i believe what you said you identified yourself to be someone who is stuck using the old methods and PES on the Ps2 and hasn't fully adapted to the new game. What do you define as a casual anyway? I mean my mate who normal plays fifa i beat last sunday. He doesn't play the new PES 2011 much, so is he a casual., he didn't complain too much about the controls! I'd say the casual player would get a general idea how the game works then he'll make a decision if he likes it or not! TBH Casuals have their game with FIFA! The questions more what would attract a genuine casual to the game int he first place?

Well, I think we all pretty much know what a casual gamer is... I'm not a casual, you don't sound like a casual, most of the people who write here probably they're not casuals... casual are the gamers, to my understanding, that don't spend tons of hours with a game, but still like it and play it every once in a while.

Finally PES has moved on and adapted! The game your looking for, that 'PES 6 feeling' online with the whole casuals vs hardcore games is FIFA! FIFA is fast, responsive, looks great and easy to play. How the hell is PES going to compete with that? Do casuals care about if the player they are in control of is being simulated to dribble and turn using his stronger foot nonly depending on his stats? No they don't they just want all intense action which FIFA delivers! Despite being as deep as a wet sock!Especially with all the licenses FIFA has?

Thanks for your advice, but I know very well what kind of game I like, and it's not FIFA.

Super cancel? R1+R2?

I'll try that, but I believed that super-cancel wasn't supposed to be used for that. Wasn't it R2? Again, that's what Konami says in their manual. Why would they be messing up some much with it?

Talk to romanogli on this site, go here:
http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2111298#post2111298
Please write down what you want improved in FIFA because i can't see PES catering for what you want!

What i believe you are searching for is FIFA 08 as a base with better responsiveness and FIFA 11's controls! That will hopefully be FIFA 12

Sorry dude, you keep saying that, but you're wrong. Konami can't fix the game's flaws? Yeah, the ones that don't exist for you. That's all I ask.

 

[Mityaj]

Could somebody with a Tweeter account post this to John Murphy? Its a very important gamplay bug!
"Cant clear the intercepted ball with first touch!!! This is the second biggest flaw of the game together with player switching problem!

Simply put, whenever my intercepts a through-ball, he ALWAYS will use AT LEAST 2 (TWO!!) touches to get rid of it. Imagine intercepting in a crowded penalty area and being COMPLETELY unable to clear straight away. You always have to control it , after which the attacker may well have dispossessed you again!"

 

[Ern Dog]

For all the flaws related with bad response of what you do with your controller and what happens in the game, I'll wait and see what happens when I play offline. But there are many others that have nothing to do with crappy response (bad offside calls, player switching, shooting, referee calling fouls when you still have possesion and can make a dangerous play...). For the shooting, I've read some people saying that it's about player position, speed, ratings, bla bla bla... YES! That's how it's always been in PES. Only that now it sucks. It's nearly impossible to do the exact kind of shot that you want. And if what all this people say was true (shoot depends on speed, ratings...) then it would be totally unrealistic, because why in the world a player has to do always the same shot in the same situation? That's not football, that doesn't make sense. And we're talking about the super-realistic football game, right?

With the players stuck in the floor, it's very easy to prove. On any goal keeper goal kick, just try to move the player who is going to receive the ball. Can you? Or isn't he stuck with the oponents player? I press R2 almost everytime to move the player out from there, and I only achieved that once. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, please let me know if there's any other way. In FIFA, for example, this is waaaaay better resolved. But of course, if it's in FIFA, it sucks, no matter what it is. And talking about FIFA, I can talk about my experience, and I barely saw any flaw in that game. The gameplay sucked, it's boring and hal of the time players are stuck to eachother fighting for the ball. But controls are precise and responsive, when you pass the ball, the ball goes where you pass it, when you shoot, you can decide (approximately) how you want that shot to be...

If you think that the game is pretty much perfect and you really enjoy it, then I'm happy for you. But for me it's not good enough, and I still see many things that can be fixed. It's a big improvement from PES 2010, i already said that in my first post, but far from what I expect. For me, right now, the perfect game would be a mix of PES playability and FIFA controls, that simple and that difficult at the same time.

I think your problems with response are lag related, I have massive problems with response times online and at times its like playing a totally different game to the offline one.
I get beat alot online against random people who just pressure & auto tackle, play long balls and rip me apart with through passes. This only happens in laggy games though, I play a possession game and use the close control to work space for my self and when playing with lag all this goes out the window because the players do not react quick enough to my input, when I get a lag free game against these people I can just pass around them, keep possession and dribble around their pressuring men. I played a MLO game last night against one of these people, it was lag free and I had pretty much 100% possession for the first 15 - 20 game mins and he quit on me, I would imagine due to frustration that his normal tactics were useless and he could only get a touch of the ball when his keeper saved a shot.
Yes this is still a problem with the game, Konami have had crap online all through this gen and it is very frustrating but when it works it is brilliant.

I dont agree with what you have wrote about shooting. I will admit I do not think the system is perfect but when playing offline and I shoot and get an outcome that is different from what I intended, I go into replay and look at the situation and can see why that shot happened the way it did. Yes there are times when it is a bit crap and its something that needs looking at but for the most part its not a broken system like soo many claim.

I hold R1 & R2 to move my man not just R2, give that a try.

I am not going to get into debating PES vs FIFA its a tired argument. I can fully understand why someone who plays FIFA thinks PES is crap and visa versa. I just play the game I feel is the better of the two, the previous 3 football games I bought before PES2011 were FIFA08, the Euro Champs FIFA & FIFA 10. I got about a month of play out of them before dusting off the PS2 and going back to PES5. All I will say is that Seabass and his crew have a far better understanding of how to break football down and then recreate it in a game that has the right balance of realism and fun for my taste.

What you said in your last paragraph is EXACTLY how I feel about PES2011, at times when playing I think to myself that this game is what FIFA10 would of been like if it was actually a good game. PES2011 is still PES but it has taken onboard what FIFA did well in 2010. Sure the game has its problems and when I said apart from a few faults its pretty much perfect I was going overboard, there is plenty to fix but as it is the game is very good and very playable. Its the best football game ever I ever played.

 

[Kaiser]

Bag lag last night ern and difference in teams. But I know fully what you mean about your possession game. I enjoy games like that because it can be like a chess match. Having to get your formation right, knowing when to press and when not to that's why I always have my defenders having daylight between them and the attacker for 2 reasons..

1) the anticipation of the through ball is easier to cut out and by not getting close and almost keeping the distance from the attacker your filling his head with more options than he'd hope for which leads to indecision and allows fellow defenders to beef up your numbers and can buy time on a man down advantage.

2) the gap can really help when the lag is at it's worst as the little gap gives more time to just clear it.

 

[Ern Dog]

Lebert and mfmaxpower I think you both have to accept that some people here are just more in tune with the game than yourselves and the multitude of people that complain about it. That may sound condescending but it is not, I am not saying that you do not understand football or are bad at the game. What I am trying to put across is that we have conditioned our responses and input into the game to match what the game is doing. If there is a slight delay between actions due to animations we have accepted this and know to let the player perform one action fully before inputting another command, therefore the game feels perfectly fluid to us where it will feel unresponsive to you and others.
I am not trying to say PES is as deep as the ocean and if you experiece problems its down to you not knowing how to play it(although with some problems this may be the case), its just that we have adjusted out playing style to match the game rather than force our style, which is a product of playing other football games, onto it.

I hope you understand what I am trying to put across, we are not sitting here blindly defending Seabass' honour and saying that if you have problems with the game its your fault and the game is perfect in every way, we simply do not experience alot of the common faults people say the game has. If we dont have these problems we are going to say so and suggest that, as we had to, you might need more time to adapt to what the game is doing. I realise that it comes across as elitist and condescending but there is no other way to say it.
When I first came to this site I thought that Jimmy G Force was a fanboy of the highest order(sorry jimmy ) and would blindly defend the game no matter what. Now I agree with everything he says about the game, he was not and is not in love with Seabass and will defend him till his dying breath(well maybe ), he just had a better understanding of how to play the game than I did.

People need to put their egos aside, that goes for both sides of the argument, and look at things more objectively.

 

[Ern Dog]

Bag lag last night ern and difference in teams.

I dont want to use that as an excuse mate, I got beat straight up, we both had lag. My team is not 'that' bad, there are some very good players, I am just struggling to find a formation where they are an organzied bunch who can press all the areas of the pitch effectively. I got beat tactically and by your playing on the pitch. BUT when I have got a formation that suits me it wont be soo easy

 

[MindlessDrugHoover]

I understand that this is a forum and disucssing PES is what it's there for, but I gotta say after reading this thread that some ppl take the game too seriously, over analysing it and making it out to be something perfect where others can see its clearly not.

I wouldn't call myself a casual gamer, I like simualtion. I own both Fifa and PES and the differences are clear to see for everyone. Majority of ppl are casual gamers. They don't want to waste time with a learning curve, they want want accessible games. This is Fifa. But saying Fifa gameplay is garbage for this reason is not correct. Fifa gameplay can be fantastic, especially with friends. Yes yes there are things that don't seem realistic i.e goalkeeper having amazing touches, not enough inviduality....But honestly that stuff is minor when it comes to playing. When I read ppl quitting the game cos they aren't happy that Drogba can out muscle anyone or something similar to this, I just think really? That made you stop playing? It's just pedantic. I remember Adriano being a beast in PES5 with his left foot too...Did that make people stop? No.

PES 2011 is a better simulation of football and has a steep learning curve. Does this make it the best football game? Well I've been playing this game now for a week or two and like others have seen many flaws in it i.e players not reacting to a ball 1 foot from them, wanting to clear it but having a first touch....It's by no way perfect.

I suppose to summarise this whole post is basically saying horses for courses. It's down to choice and preference. Just because someone prefers pro over fifa, does it make them more knowledageable on football than others? Of course not. Its that kind of snobbery that just irritates the crap out of me because its so pathetic. End of the day, you enjoy whatever game you like, and I don't see any need to justify your reasons just enjoy.

 

[sattan_hussein]

Has anyone played coop yet? It's ridiculous, I thought player switching was bad, but in coop it's completely bollocks, it changes automatically even when you have the ball, i. e. I'm dribbling and suddenly my friend is controlling the player.

 

[Ern Dog]

I understand that this is a forum and disucssing PES is what it's there for, but I gotta say after reading this thread that some ppl take the game too seriously, over analysing it and making it out to be something perfect where others can see its clearly not.

I wouldn't call myself a casual gamer, I like simualtion. I own both Fifa and PES and the differences are clear to see for everyone. Majority of ppl are casual gamers. They don't want to waste time with a learning curve, they want want accessible games. This is Fifa. But saying Fifa gameplay is garbage for this reason is not correct. Fifa gameplay can be fantastic, especially with friends. Yes yes there are things that don't seem realistic i.e goalkeeper having amazing touches, not enough inviduality....But honestly that stuff is minor when it comes to playing. When I read ppl quitting the game cos they aren't happy that Drogba can out muscle anyone or something similar to this, I just think really? That made you stop playing? It's just pedantic. I remember Adriano being a beast in PES5 with his left foot too...Did that make people stop? No.

PES 2011 is a better simulation of football and has a steep learning curve. Does this make it the best football game? Well I've been playing this game now for a week or two and like others have seen many flaws in it i.e players not reacting to a ball 1 foot from them, wanting to clear it but having a first touch....It's by no way perfect.

I suppose to summarise this whole post is basically saying horses for courses. It's down to choice and preference. Just because someone prefers pro over fifa, does it make them more knowledageable on football than others? Of course not. Its that kind of snobbery that just irritates the crap out of me because its so pathetic. End of the day, you enjoy whatever game you like, and I don't see any need to justify your reasons just enjoy.

I dont think anyone here is saying the game is perfect or that FIFA is total crap.

Its like you said "horse for courses" but the problem lies with people that want the best of both worlds and cant accept either game as it is. These guys will never be happy.

I can understand why people get frustrated when they point out problems and other members say they they need to learn the game. But they must understand that the reason this is being said is because we went through this same process of frustration but you will click with the game and things start to come together. I am sure if I go back through my posts here there will be some where I am complaining about some of the same faults people see now that I no longer do. Guys are trying, maybe not in the most polite manner at times, to point out that the game does have a learning curve and it is not very enjoyable until you get what the game is all about.
Like I said earlier you need to condition yourself to the game and not try to force it to do things its not designed to do. This is where accepting the game for what it is comes in, learn the way it plays and play it how it wants to be played, then you will see why a group of us in here are loving it and do not experience all these faults that are supposedly there.
I dont think you need some deep understanding of footballing technique to understand the game. The only football I ever played was in the playground and one time as a reserve for a local team(got beat 1 - 14 ). What is necessary to understand is that the success rate for passing, shooting and some movement is very much determined by your players body position. The game is not a 'sim' but it does have some degree of realism and when this is pointed out some peoples egos get hurt thinking the football knowledge they have is under attack. I gained my understanding of body postioning from playing PES5 and while some people know about this alot dont and this is where the complaints of inconsistent passing and a broken shooting system come from. I had a friend try to play a pass when he was facing 12 o'clock to a player that was at 4 o'clock and then said the game was crap when it didnt happen! These are the sort of critisms we are trying to defend and explain to people where they are going wrong.

 

[Ern Dog]

Has anyone played coop yet? It's ridiculous, I thought player switching was bad, but in coop it's completely bollocks, it changes automatically even when you have the ball, i. e. I'm dribbling and suddenly my friend is controlling the player.

This has not happened once in the 3 or 4 co-op games I have played.

 

[Isslander]

Has anyone played coop yet? It's ridiculous, I thought player switching was bad, but in coop it's completely bollocks, it changes automatically even when you have the ball, i. e. I'm dribbling and suddenly my friend is controlling the player.

I still haven't, but I have feared this was the case, as co-up play in the past games has featured some shaky player switching.

 

[gerd]

This has not happened once in the 3 or 4 co-op games I have played.

I play coop with my son every single day from 7 PM till 8 PM. Im ust ahve played dozens of matches. It happens all the time..just like Satan Hussein said.
We played a WC with Cameroun (my son' s favourite team). I come before goal with Eto'o and when it's time to shoot, it turns out my son has to shoot. There is some logicin it (or i think i have found a logic in it), but i can't explain it accurately in English. I have the feeling that the game changes player after dribbling or after a player has to control the ball, or things like that...it's not the best explanation...
Defending is even more illogic...playing coop is a litle bit of a lottery...but once you adjust tactically (and it takes a lot of tinkering), then it can be quite fun...but keep in mind that somehow the CPU team always end up having an unfair advantage.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

I definately believe having solid understanding of real-life footballing technique goes a long, long way in appreciating everything that PES does so very, very well. Mindhoover had a pop at me when I said it wouldnt suprise me if Seabass had actually played at a decent level, such is his understanding of technique and fundementals. I still very much stand by that statement, even though I know Seabass has barely kicked a ball in his life. Which makes his understanding and replication even more impressive.

I found another instance of this last night, and it was with corner-kicks. I'm able now to put so much more control on these corners, and by basically mirroring the motion of the relevant real-life technique with the analogue stick. I did this with D'Agostino, as he has a very high swerve stat. Imagine taking a corner from the right end of the stadium, and at the bottom end of the pitch, and with a left footer. As I address the corner-kick, and look to aim at the penalty spot, I apply about half power (I'm guessing it's this as I dont use the Power Bar visual, I switch it off as I prefer the 'feel' ) I then rotate the left stick clockwise from about 7 O'clock to 12. This motion is the same as you use in real life as you wrap your foot around the left hand side of ball to give it the relevant swerve to the right. Continuing the motion on the stick till 12'oclock is adding that slight bit of top, giving more mustard to the strike, and making it dip as you come up and over the left-top quarter of the ball. The results are very realistic, and you can basically control the ball exactly as you wish. Prior to last night, I'd always basically just held left or right for the swerve. But the level of control is so much deeper than that. Swerve with topspin or backspin is possible from this dead-ball situation.

Its this type of mimicing motion that it is completely relevant to it's real-life counterpart that I find very impressive indeed. PES does this brilliantly, and as a footballer, I cant help but appreciate these things.

Edit - What I have described must be done by applying the technique to the initial view, and not when the camera changes angle.

 

[klashman69]

You keep saying that you want a simulator, as if I wanted an arcade game or something, but you really confuse me with your understanding of a simulator, so I have to ask you, have you ever played football? Because I have, and for example, talking about the shooting system that you say is so great, waht you say doesn't make sense. So you're telling me that realistic is that you can't choose where you want to shoot, and that most of the shots go up to the sky? Dude, in real football, you can always choose the kind of shot, including the power you want to give it. Of course, the ball won't go always to the same exact place, but you can aim for a low shot or high shot with different amounts of power.

No, that's was exactly my point! BTW it not just there could be lag making the game worse for you, loads of other factors such as the game being set on regular which seems for me at least to reduce the reaction time and your defenders are times are morons, comedy stuff which is possible on professional/top player dosen't happen on regular. This is why I'm not bothered about online and i just play for the sake of it! With the difficaulty set to regular it's mainly set to brig the casuals in.

Unlike FIFA where setting the difficulty only affects the goalie in 1 vs 1 in PES it affects almost everything, the biggest thing it affects is the defenders for me reaction time and intelligence, also it just in general affects the players reactions.

Shooting real life you can choose what type of shot you want but depending not just how good your are but how comfortable and confident you are with the ball, that's what dictates how swell you shoot. Like i keep saying you may want to hit a daisy cutter from 30 yards or place a shot from 22 yards but if your being pressure or don't have much space you likely to hit the ball in a way you didn't intend. Seriously when even someone like Messi its into row z. Did he really mean that?

In this PES, for example, if my attacker is running alone, getting into the bos from one corner, facing the keeper, and I just tap the shoot button (minimim power), how in the world the ball goes most of the times far above the goal?

2 things:

1. Probably your players just aren't very good or consistent.

2. Body position, i keep telling you this, really i think it's best if you stopped playing MLO online and practiced learning the game offline. It seems you went almost straight to online play without getting comfortable with the game first!

Also PES 6 was diabolical when it came to tapping the shot button and it flying well over the ball, i used to throw my controller against the wall when on that game i worked a great move then tapped the shoot button, what 5 yards from goal only for the player to sky the ball! Happened so many times, it was stupidly scripted!

I could give you so many examples about unrealism in this game... is it real that defender have some sort of boost when chasing attackers?

Again, this isn't like the old pes games where a fast player would breeze away from his marker! Also this promoted arcade like play like you would of experienced with FIFA 09 (Crisitano Ronalod, Agbonglahor etc..)

Have you tried holing R1 + R2 to knock the ball further ahead like i do or tapping R1 while sprinting? You won't motor away from anyone when sprinting with the ball just holding R1 down which is great imo and realsitic. If you watch Thierry Henry or Walcott when they motor away from the last defender they take about 2-3 touches at the most before finishing. When you get past the last man, either tap R1 or hold R1 and R2 to take a bigger touch allowing you to sprint at full speed more.

I don't have this problem at all! There was such a easy way around it, (it's not even a problem int he first place) Just makes me laugh when people complain!

Is it real that they can take away the ball from any position, even from behind?

Finally a genuine concern, yeah i agree the tacking needs work! Not game killing but it needs work.

Is it real that through balls can easily cross the defense line many times with defenders just staring at them?

Through balls for me a re a bit too easy but it's less of a problem offline! Online with the lag, regular difficulty, shot defenders etc.. wit's hard to deal with! Takes time to master it! I understand it catches everyone out! Thing is MLO dosen't show the game at it's best so in a summary it's incorrect to judge the game just on this one mode!



Well, I think we all pretty much know what a casual gamer is... I'm not a casual, you don't sound like a casual, most of the people who write here probably they're not casuals... casual are the gamers, to my understanding, that don't spend tons of hours with a game, but still like it and play it every once in a while.

I'll try that, but I believed that super-cancel wasn't supposed to be used for that. Wasn't it R2? Again, that's what Konami says in their manual. Why would they be messing up some much with it?

Becasue the R2 s about barging into the man when your locked with him, it's shit anyway! Wouldn't worry about it, just write some ideas for how konami to improve it!

Sorry dude, you keep saying that, but you're wrong. Konami can't fix the game's flaws? Yeah, the ones that don't exist for you. That's all I ask.

Hope by reading this thread you understand what I'm getting at! Many of the things you have complained about aren't flaws at all, some are i just want Konami to work on the things which ARE genuine flaws, not stuff like defender catchup and shooting which just requires you to knock the ball further ahead

 

[MindlessDrugHoover]

I definately believe having solid understanding of real-life footballing technique goes a long, long way in appreciating everything that PES does so very, very well. Mindhoover had a pop at me when I said it wouldnt suprise me if Seabass had actually played at a decent level, such is his understanding of technique and fundementals. I still very much stand by that statement, even though I know Seabass has barely kicked a ball in his life. Which makes his understanding and replication even more impressive.

/QUOTE]

Only had a pop at you because I have seen numerous posts from you which basically imply that people who play fifa have low intelligence or not smart enough to get PES. It's very condescending and also completely wrong. I have nothing against you at all and in all honesty I admire your passion for Pro (can't get used to calling it PES!). Your very much a part of these forums than I will ever be. I can tell you right now i'm very deeply immersed in this years master league, having not played Pro since version 6 and in all honesty really enjoying it. Some poster mentioned here "thinking about ML pes is almost as good as playing it". So true lol. Your at work and your wondering who should I buy next etc and cannot wait to play your next match.

Ern Dog, fantastic reply to my post sir There are some really good posters on this forum.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

I definately believe having solid understanding of real-life footballing technique goes a long, long way in appreciating everything that PES does so very, very well. Mindhoover had a pop at me when I said it wouldnt suprise me if Seabass had actually played at a decent level, such is his understanding of technique and fundementals. I still very much stand by that statement, even though I know Seabass has barely kicked a ball in his life. Which makes his understanding and replication even more impressive.

/QUOTE]

Only had a pop at you because I have seen numerous posts from you which basically imply that people who play fifa have low intelligence or not smart enough to get PES. It's very condescending and also completely wrong. I have nothing against you at all and in all honesty I admire your passion for Pro (can't get used to calling it PES!). Your very much a part of these forums than I will ever be. I can tell you right now i'm very deeply immersed in this years master league, having not played Pro since version 6 and in all honesty really enjoying it. Some poster mentioned here "thinking about ML pes is almost as good as playing it". So true lol. Your at work and your wondering who should I buy next etc and cannot wait to play your next match.

Ern Dog, fantastic reply to my post sir There are some really good posters on this forum.

I agree it is. And there is no excuse for that kind of comment. Each to their own, enjoy whatever you like. In my defence, I must have been extremely provoked to lower myself to that, and there have been times on here when I've been arguing PES's finer points against 'gangs' of members who held different preferences and were out soley to wind me up. And I had no back-up.

Have a look in the MLO thread for some quality cheap buys.

 

[romagnoli]

Jimmy, not convinced rolling the stick achieves anything that holding it diagonally wouldn't? Seems like you're doing it because it feels right, when something much simpler would suffice. Like when some people give it some with Wii Tennis because it feels right but others realise you can just flick your wrist for the same outcome.

A lot of PES's charm is that it's quite enigmatic. You don't quite know how everything truly works because Konami don't take mimicking real life literally. So you end up trying to learn by playing. When you see/feel that one or two areas are very deep, that feeling bleeds across into other areas so you perceive additional depth that might not actually be there.

This enigmatic approach is what gives PES its soul. I spent a lot of last Friday explaining this, and the importance of attention to detail in the right areas to give the feeling of more depth elsewhere, to EA and various FIFA guys.

 

[Kaiser]

I dont want to use that as an excuse mate, I got beat straight up, we both had lag. My team is not 'that' bad, there are some very good players, I am just struggling to find a formation where they are an organzied bunch who can press all the areas of the pitch effectively. I got beat tactically and by your playing on the pitch. BUT when I have got a formation that suits me it wont be soo easy

Well see mate. But that was MK7 in formation test and it passed 3 times so i might have struck gold. But like the bold highlights, i think tactics is key in this game. The subtle set-up in formations/pressing/counter attacking really make some games epics. Every time i play another person or the same person from PEEL every game is different from the last......remarkable!

It's that very element that makes this game superior to other football games.

 

[romagnoli]

Jimmy, not convinced rolling the stick achieves anything that holding it diagonally wouldn't? Seems like you're doing it because it feels right, when something much simpler would suffice. Like when some people give it some with Wii Tennis because it feels right but others realise you can just flick your wrist for the same outcome.

A lot of PES's charm is that it's quite enigmatic. You don't quite know how everything truly works because Konami don't take mimicking real life literally. So you end up trying to learn by playing. When you see/feel that one or two areas are very deep, that feeling bleeds across into other areas so you perceive additional depth that might not actually be there.

This enigmatic approach is what gives PES its soul. I spent a lot of last Friday explaining this, and the importance of attention to detail in the right areas to give the feeling of more depth elsewhere, to EA and various FIFA guys.