D
DagsJT
Guest
Not sure off the top of my head, I'll check later on but I think each camera pans that way at the end of the pitch. I could be wrong though.
PES 2011 Discussion thread
- Thread starter NightWish
- Start date
pboreham
Kick. Snare. Hat. Ride.
gerd
Retired Footballer
About the movement off the ball.
First of all, i respect nerf's opinion, he is a very positive guy and he makes a good point.
It could well be that i don't have enough football awareness, but i don't really see the problem.
I agree that if you play with the demo teams without tinkering with the tactitcs, your team mates are too static. But if you play around with the tactics there is movement around the ball carrier.
About the pictures that nerf shows us...well that is something i quite like but maybe less realistic for a team like Bayern (ideally for Barcelona however). The way these players are positioned (quite near to each other) is ideally suited to make (what we call in Belgium and which i have translated literally) "triangles". This ideal against a compact team that puts pressure.
I remember a goal i scored with Nacional. Edu gave a pass to D'Allessandro. D'Allessandro patiently waited till Edu made his run diagonally from the left wing to the centre (right between the two centre backs) and gave a well times pass...a simple but beautifully constructed goal.
I've been playing quite a lot of FIFA the last year and i must admit that i missed the control where you let your team mates make runs forward. It's just that in PES you do that implictly by changing the tactics. It took me a while to getting used to it. I have the impression that you need more patience in PES and that's what's making it just a litle bit more rewarding to score a goal IMO.
I still think FIFA is a very good game, but to me scoring is a bigger thrill in PES. Is PES the better game? I will buy both games and let's see in a year...
Belgian game magazine did a review of both games.
FIFA 11: 9.1
PES 2011: 7.0
They also complained about the lack of movement off the ball...and about the animations that aren't as natural fluent as those in FIFA ( i tend to agree with the latter gripe).
First of all, i respect nerf's opinion, he is a very positive guy and he makes a good point.
It could well be that i don't have enough football awareness, but i don't really see the problem.
I agree that if you play with the demo teams without tinkering with the tactitcs, your team mates are too static. But if you play around with the tactics there is movement around the ball carrier.
About the pictures that nerf shows us...well that is something i quite like but maybe less realistic for a team like Bayern (ideally for Barcelona however). The way these players are positioned (quite near to each other) is ideally suited to make (what we call in Belgium and which i have translated literally) "triangles". This ideal against a compact team that puts pressure.
I remember a goal i scored with Nacional. Edu gave a pass to D'Allessandro. D'Allessandro patiently waited till Edu made his run diagonally from the left wing to the centre (right between the two centre backs) and gave a well times pass...a simple but beautifully constructed goal.
I've been playing quite a lot of FIFA the last year and i must admit that i missed the control where you let your team mates make runs forward. It's just that in PES you do that implictly by changing the tactics. It took me a while to getting used to it. I have the impression that you need more patience in PES and that's what's making it just a litle bit more rewarding to score a goal IMO.
I still think FIFA is a very good game, but to me scoring is a bigger thrill in PES. Is PES the better game? I will buy both games and let's see in a year...
Belgian game magazine did a review of both games.
FIFA 11: 9.1
PES 2011: 7.0
They also complained about the lack of movement off the ball...and about the animations that aren't as natural fluent as those in FIFA ( i tend to agree with the latter gripe).
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pboreham
Kick. Snare. Hat. Ride.
I would say that sometimes the AI players take up poor positions, but I've never had a problem with AI runs in any PES game - 2011 included.
I think this is proven by the amount of times CB's pop up in the box during open play. And I'm not saying this happens a lot, but very naturally - i.e. sometimes you'll have the ball around the box and see Puyol in the box looking for a header - I think that is superb.
Also, scored a cracking goal with Alves last night for Barca. He picked it up in his own half, dribbled for a bit and laid it off. I continued to pass it around a bit in the final third and noticed Alves was on the shoulder of the last CB, so Villa played a perfect through ball and Alves ran through and slipped it past the keeper.
Was a perfect example of if you play the game 'right', then runs will be made from deep.
I watched the replay loads as Alves body shape before getting the ball was amazing. He was facing 'down' towards the side line with his back to the defender, half turned - like he was just aching for the ball to be slid alongside him. It was just so obvious where he wanted it - very clever animation.
I think this is proven by the amount of times CB's pop up in the box during open play. And I'm not saying this happens a lot, but very naturally - i.e. sometimes you'll have the ball around the box and see Puyol in the box looking for a header - I think that is superb.
Also, scored a cracking goal with Alves last night for Barca. He picked it up in his own half, dribbled for a bit and laid it off. I continued to pass it around a bit in the final third and noticed Alves was on the shoulder of the last CB, so Villa played a perfect through ball and Alves ran through and slipped it past the keeper.
Was a perfect example of if you play the game 'right', then runs will be made from deep.
I watched the replay loads as Alves body shape before getting the ball was amazing. He was facing 'down' towards the side line with his back to the defender, half turned - like he was just aching for the ball to be slid alongside him. It was just so obvious where he wanted it - very clever animation.
9.1 seems pretty high for a game that Eurogamer made sound like Fifa 10 with the fun sucked out.
And a 7 - what other negatives caused that? Was it just because of animations and player runs?
By any chance do you know what scores they gave last year?
Me thinks this year could be another one of those 'scores given on reputation' years. Like when Fifa had lower scores than PES a few years ago despite the majority of people thinking that Fifa had the better game by a long shot that year. (I'm think that was 08 year?).
Expander
Banned
- 4 May 2010
Reading 3 pages of cracking posts on the ai and attacking runs i wanted to add my take on this subject.
What some people IMO are failing to realise with pes2011 is you have more manual control of the players with your player switch(cursor),so at times if a player is static and not moving when the cpu has the ball,you have the option of clicking back to the player and controlling his movement off the ball rather then the cpu holding your hand and controlling all these movements,its just a case of being quick with the cursor and shaking this lazy mindset that has crept into football games over the course of the last 10 years in which the cpu is making every single movement and decision for you off the ball,rendering you a mere passenger to the game.Its the same with defending,at times you have to make sure your ahead of the play clicking back to your CBs and making sure through balls dont get in behind them by seeing the danger and reacting to it much earlier and covering the space behind them,rather then being level with the opposition player so that there through ball always beats and gets in front of your defender.When i can i make sure my midfield is doing most of my defending because the cursors so reactive to my commands i can use them to cover my defence and run them back.
Its the same for attacking,players will make runs and move into space at the right time and if you play the ball into space because they make the movement and point(its just quick),but again you have more control of the attacks and players not always running into space is so they can knock the ball back short to your cursor controlled player giving you the option of what they do next.You then have the option of whether they make a advance run by playing a one-two or using the pass and go.With practise it becomes second nature to the point where you can command forward runs just like fifa.
In fifa the ai does to much,and it takes alot of the satisfaction of doing things yourself and after a short period of time this becomes boring and samey and you always feel relatively indestructable because you know you can run players out of position,leave holes and you wont be punished because the ai will do all the overlapping of players back for you and cover off the ball.This is why you can play a newbie at fifa and it still can be difficult to break them down.You dont really have to understand about defending to be successfull because the games totally geared towards attack and doing most of the thinking for you,its not really free its just a case of hitting the right parameters to be successfull and this is why within weeks it becomes boring and predictable.You cant in fifa do that lovely play where your midfielder just outside the box runs into the space to blast a shot because ea have deliberatly made the opposition ai sit in that space so your just forced wide with the ball all the time you cant go down the wide channels stretching the cpu and creating this space through the middle.
I positively applaud the ai in pes2011 its reactive to how well you play and comes alive when you turn on the magic and will adapt and will start to make more automatic runs if your triggering them yourself(it adapts to how you play),its also is set in such away that the game allows the end user to have more control of his 11 rather then the game wiping your arse.
Coming back to game engines,theres nothing wrong with the tech used in pes2011,the players are foot planting FFS,its only going to get better over the next few years and a game engine is only as good as the developer and what they do with it and there ability to get the maximum out of the tools at there disposal.Pes2011 is a lot more sophisticated then some think,as is the ai and physics.
Lets also not forget fifa11 is more or less the same game people have been playing for the last year in fif10 and FWC,so naturally it doesnt take much of a learning curve to feel comfortable,about 1 minute,and your brains used to playing in a certain way with your grey matter understanding every single movement and reaction of the players.Weve had pes2011 in demo form on the market place for less then 4 weeks,and people are comparing it against something they understand profoundly(fifa)because they know that game like the back of there hand.Pes2011 should be judged months from now not within weeks.
What some people IMO are failing to realise with pes2011 is you have more manual control of the players with your player switch(cursor),so at times if a player is static and not moving when the cpu has the ball,you have the option of clicking back to the player and controlling his movement off the ball rather then the cpu holding your hand and controlling all these movements,its just a case of being quick with the cursor and shaking this lazy mindset that has crept into football games over the course of the last 10 years in which the cpu is making every single movement and decision for you off the ball,rendering you a mere passenger to the game.Its the same with defending,at times you have to make sure your ahead of the play clicking back to your CBs and making sure through balls dont get in behind them by seeing the danger and reacting to it much earlier and covering the space behind them,rather then being level with the opposition player so that there through ball always beats and gets in front of your defender.When i can i make sure my midfield is doing most of my defending because the cursors so reactive to my commands i can use them to cover my defence and run them back.
Its the same for attacking,players will make runs and move into space at the right time and if you play the ball into space because they make the movement and point(its just quick),but again you have more control of the attacks and players not always running into space is so they can knock the ball back short to your cursor controlled player giving you the option of what they do next.You then have the option of whether they make a advance run by playing a one-two or using the pass and go.With practise it becomes second nature to the point where you can command forward runs just like fifa.
In fifa the ai does to much,and it takes alot of the satisfaction of doing things yourself and after a short period of time this becomes boring and samey and you always feel relatively indestructable because you know you can run players out of position,leave holes and you wont be punished because the ai will do all the overlapping of players back for you and cover off the ball.This is why you can play a newbie at fifa and it still can be difficult to break them down.You dont really have to understand about defending to be successfull because the games totally geared towards attack and doing most of the thinking for you,its not really free its just a case of hitting the right parameters to be successfull and this is why within weeks it becomes boring and predictable.You cant in fifa do that lovely play where your midfielder just outside the box runs into the space to blast a shot because ea have deliberatly made the opposition ai sit in that space so your just forced wide with the ball all the time you cant go down the wide channels stretching the cpu and creating this space through the middle.
I positively applaud the ai in pes2011 its reactive to how well you play and comes alive when you turn on the magic and will adapt and will start to make more automatic runs if your triggering them yourself(it adapts to how you play),its also is set in such away that the game allows the end user to have more control of his 11 rather then the game wiping your arse.
Coming back to game engines,theres nothing wrong with the tech used in pes2011,the players are foot planting FFS,its only going to get better over the next few years and a game engine is only as good as the developer and what they do with it and there ability to get the maximum out of the tools at there disposal.Pes2011 is a lot more sophisticated then some think,as is the ai and physics.
Lets also not forget fifa11 is more or less the same game people have been playing for the last year in fif10 and FWC,so naturally it doesnt take much of a learning curve to feel comfortable,about 1 minute,and your brains used to playing in a certain way with your grey matter understanding every single movement and reaction of the players.Weve had pes2011 in demo form on the market place for less then 4 weeks,and people are comparing it against something they understand profoundly(fifa)because they know that game like the back of there hand.Pes2011 should be judged months from now not within weeks.
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henrys hand
Premier League
- 2 September 2010
I see your point but it's not thought through. Sure in defending you can switch early to make sure the defense stands good, but in a lot of situations, yes sometimes chaotic ones, you don#t have the time to control more than one player at once.. in these situations you can control only one and need the AI to react logically to the situation at hand.
Often that doesn't happen as individually the players are too unaware and lack drive when not controlled by yourself.
In attack-phases it's similar, when you have the ball you can't just switch all around to make sure your three partner-players make the right moves, you need to rely on the AI to think what to do, what would be helpful...
But that also often doesn't happen, quite to the contrary not only are they desinterested to move along, they sometimes even deliberately sabotage a good opportunity by falling back.
Sure you can get around that problem a bit by using PES-techniques of double-passes to encourage runs, and these are legitimate tools that get also used in real-life, but it robs you of other options to develop an attack.
Having to do a double-pass first slows down an attack that should be more straight-forward. Doublepasses are tools to create space when the defense is already standing in position but when having the opportunity for a counter-attack and the defense is still not fully balanced players have to make the right moves forward without doublepass.
Right now as judged by the demos, the team-AI is way better in PES 2011 than in Fifa 11, but the individual AI is more aware and active in Fifa 11, so both have their clear deficiencies to work out for the next installment of their games.
sattan_hussein
Championship
Yes, loose ball avoidance, another known issue, and to me bigger than the "green zone", because you can choose to not exploit the green zone, but in this case you'll have to get the ball yourself because the AI won't, and the switching system is broken(?).
Expander said:
sincover said:
I rarely had problem with switching in previous games, you pressed L1 and the direction of the player you wanted and bingo. In PES2011 sometimes I find myself switching 3, 4 times before arriving at the right player.
Expander, you seem to have a very good knowledge of the game basics, would you care to explain how the new switching system works? Anyone else is welcome too.
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Exactly. I think they both deserve around 8-8,5 this year, nothing more, nothing less. Neither satisfies me completely, though. One's strength is too often the other's weakness.
I support expanders thoughts, always loved pes for this style of play.
But at some point the L1 playerswitch got broken. I don't know if it was 2008,09,10?!
But I remember switching to the needed defender and catching almost every ball that came through in pes6. In my opinion pes2011 is the best in the series so far, but the player switching is really f'd-up this year!
And to player movement into space:
Yesterday I had two 20min matches against my roommate who did not play this years demo that often...
I explained the new tactics screen to him and we used almost the same options...
First I won 4:1, second one I lost 0:1.
He was moaning alot about the lack of player movement, while I was dominating with great passes into space almost all the time. But honestly, there was player movement on his side. He is simply to slow or did not see it.
In my opinion it all comes down to the style of play.
I was playing way more passes and always kept an eye open for free attackers.
You can say that I did not wait for my players to move their asses, I moved them around with quick passes and when the right situation came, an attacker made his run...
The funny thing is, he actually believed that there must be a button to make your players run forward
just because of my style of play and my players movement! Later in the second game I told him when his players made a run and he "just didn't see it".
But at some point the L1 playerswitch got broken. I don't know if it was 2008,09,10?!
But I remember switching to the needed defender and catching almost every ball that came through in pes6. In my opinion pes2011 is the best in the series so far, but the player switching is really f'd-up this year!
And to player movement into space:
Yesterday I had two 20min matches against my roommate who did not play this years demo that often...
I explained the new tactics screen to him and we used almost the same options...
First I won 4:1, second one I lost 0:1.
He was moaning alot about the lack of player movement, while I was dominating with great passes into space almost all the time. But honestly, there was player movement on his side. He is simply to slow or did not see it.
In my opinion it all comes down to the style of play.
I was playing way more passes and always kept an eye open for free attackers.
You can say that I did not wait for my players to move their asses, I moved them around with quick passes and when the right situation came, an attacker made his run...
The funny thing is, he actually believed that there must be a button to make your players run forward
just because of my style of play and my players movement! Later in the second game I told him when his players made a run and he "just didn't see it".
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Expander
Banned
- 4 May 2010
Sattan,henrys hand
My eye is watching the whole game,not just where the ball is and i see the danger and whats going to happen next early and react to it accordingly.Ive been playing footie games for twenty years and played alot of perfect striker/iss on the n64 which allowed you much more manual control like pes2011 does.Its just a case of understanding the game and giving it time.
So many people wanted something different,less cpu contrived and controlled and now they have it they dont want to learn to understand it and state its not the same as fifa and its broken.
Sorry,but in my book its lazyness and not trying,people dont want to be taken out of there pes or fifa comfort zone and learn to play a game differently that is much deeper and more rewarding when mastered.
Id be more worried if people were generally mastering the game by now and these constant gripes about the ai cement in my mind that konami have got it right.Im sick to death of playing against people that are shit at football games that get a leg up because the game balances out the weaknesses of there game,reactions and lack of a much deeper and profound football knowledge that trancends well beyond just kicking the ball from A TO B and in the back of the net.Konami said they were giving it back to the hardcore and thats what theyve done,fifa jocks and those that think they understand football need not apply.
My eye is watching the whole game,not just where the ball is and i see the danger and whats going to happen next early and react to it accordingly.Ive been playing footie games for twenty years and played alot of perfect striker/iss on the n64 which allowed you much more manual control like pes2011 does.Its just a case of understanding the game and giving it time.
So many people wanted something different,less cpu contrived and controlled and now they have it they dont want to learn to understand it and state its not the same as fifa and its broken.
Sorry,but in my book its lazyness and not trying,people dont want to be taken out of there pes or fifa comfort zone and learn to play a game differently that is much deeper and more rewarding when mastered.
Id be more worried if people were generally mastering the game by now and these constant gripes about the ai cement in my mind that konami have got it right.Im sick to death of playing against people that are shit at football games that get a leg up because the game balances out the weaknesses of there game,reactions and lack of a much deeper and profound football knowledge that trancends well beyond just kicking the ball from A TO B and in the back of the net.Konami said they were giving it back to the hardcore and thats what theyve done,fifa jocks and those that think they understand football need not apply.
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Couldn't say it better expander!
Anticipating your opponents next move is what's important.
What I also could observe is that sometimes players start of with a run for a tiny moment
then stop again because there was no pass. It all comes down to speed and quick reactions.
Anticipating your opponents next move is what's important.
What I also could observe is that sometimes players start of with a run for a tiny moment
then stop again because there was no pass. It all comes down to speed and quick reactions.
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sattan_hussein
Championship
You are too fuzzy in your answers. "i see the danger and whats going to happen next" does not explain how when you press L1 it goes to the right player.
Bashing people who are having difficulties adapting to the new game won't help either.
Bashing people who are having difficulties adapting to the new game won't help either.
In my opinion there is no special way to switch directly to the on you want to control.
I just keep on pressing L1... as I said, it is not like it was before in pes5,6...
but what can you do?! you can not change this behaviour, so you have to adapt to it.
Think in advance, change your player earlier...
this may sound stupid, but it is how it is, sadly :/
I just keep on pressing L1... as I said, it is not like it was before in pes5,6...
but what can you do?! you can not change this behaviour, so you have to adapt to it.
Think in advance, change your player earlier...
this may sound stupid, but it is how it is, sadly :/
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Anyone??
Expander
Banned
- 4 May 2010
Sattan
Its a clever cursor system in semi-assisted,giving you the right control of the right players when its needed,i dont concede to many goals on top player,and i dont have situations where my teamates of the ball are not reacting because im making sure there in the right position or reacting to the situation by controlling this myself with the cursor.This is where the satisfaction comes from not the ai doing this for me.
Ive seen the videos where players are standing still,and theres a reason for it,because the user isnt quick enough to be controlling that player himself,hes automatically expecting the cpu to do this for him,this isnt how pes2011 works.
Its a clever cursor system in semi-assisted,giving you the right control of the right players when its needed,i dont concede to many goals on top player,and i dont have situations where my teamates of the ball are not reacting because im making sure there in the right position or reacting to the situation by controlling this myself with the cursor.This is where the satisfaction comes from not the ai doing this for me.
Ive seen the videos where players are standing still,and theres a reason for it,because the user isnt quick enough to be controlling that player himself,hes automatically expecting the cpu to do this for him,this isnt how pes2011 works.
Professor Nutmeg
ML Fanatic
- 3 July 2002
This may be the first next gen PES i play. I checked out the demo (360) and quite like it (much better than last year's clunky effort). However, i'm not used to the menus and in particular the tactics menus, so it's a bit daunting. I have no idea how those slider things work and what tweaking achieves what results. It's going to be a it of a learning curve for me, i think.
Jamezinho
Golden Boot Winner
The sliders are quite straightforward to be fair. If you play around with them and move the slider from left to right there will be an explanation of what it does, e.g. one instructs your team to play very narrow if you set the slider towards the far left, very wide if you set it to the far right and a mixture of the two in between.
Professor Nutmeg
ML Fanatic
- 3 July 2002
I think i meant the new ones. There are like 5 rows of different coloured tactics. I guess you fiddle with them to achieve different tactics. Looks rather complicated, lol.
Jamezinho
Golden Boot Winner
Yeah that's the gameplan. I've not experimented with that much myself, but it looks pretty deep. I like the idea of it, though, being able to give your team a plan of action for all different situations and times of the match.
WishMaster 23
Glorioso
I think we are creating a huge deal in the cursor change issue. It has always been a strange issue in ALL football games.
Like I said before even in FIFA 10 that I played last year around the manual change of cursor gives certain issues at times.
I think that what Konami tried with this manual cursor brings a huge improvement to the series and to football games that makes you move players without the ball while the cpu has the ball and awaites your order...it's a little complicated at first to engage but it's seems worthwile in the future. I must say I play in semi-assisted now but I will try with the full game the fully manual system because it seems really interesting.
Regarding the discussion I cannot agree more with the vision of Expander, we sometimes seem a little keen to changes, and we try to maintain what is sure and secure. FIFA is simply safe and a secure GAME, it's solid and it has lot of great features, like the licenses and the environment. But I must say that during my last year FIFA 10 adventure it was rather dull after a while...if it wasn't for the online play I had been tired easily and even there the matches are always too predictable, the players seem to have no weight, it's like all of them are the same rating except for the speed factor.
PES 5 and 6 had two things, emotion, and specially had impredictability. I believe from the demo that this year that feeling is back, at least for me...
sattan_hussein
Championship
Jimmy G-Force
Resident PES Fanman
I wouldnt worry Prof, it isnt.
Remember to click the tab of the bottom of the screen that states, Level, Leading, Trailing. You can then set varying tactics for different times in the match, depending on if your Level, Leading or Trailing.
For example, if your trailing, you can set All-Out Attack to come into play between 45-90 minutes if you like. There is also a top and bottom line. The top line is where you insert your primary tactics, such as All-Out Attack. On the line below it, maybe choose Attacking Possession to compliment your All-Out Attack. Just make sure that the tactics you preset, dont contradict each other.
On a different note, played with Bayern last night for a few games. How fricking good are Ribery's feet by the way ?
I found that using your Left Stick with players with high technique or dribbling accuracy is fantastic for body feints and shoulder feints. With all the focus seemingly on the Right Stick for the more elborate tricks/feints, all the subtle body movements can applied very effectively with motions on the Left Stick. I really like this, it's a very relevant as it's the stick your controlling your player with. I tested this alot last night with Ribery and some of the close control dribbling, and subtle changes of direction by just jogging and pushing diagonal to diagonal on the left stick works really well in tight spaces. You can even gain a little momentum using sprint, then use the Left Stick to jink in and out. Try it out, some of the body swerves, and drop of the shoulder feints with Ribery in particular by just using the Left Stick are very effective.
pboreham
Kick. Snare. Hat. Ride.
Tried to tinker with the right stick skills last night. Someone suggested having just 1 skill per direction.
So I set them up, saved it etc and in the match, none of the skills I assigned worked - either standing nor running.
Some of the L2+RS skills worked on the special players.
Any ideas?
So I set them up, saved it etc and in the match, none of the skills I assigned worked - either standing nor running.
Some of the L2+RS skills worked on the special players.
Any ideas?
D
DagsJT
Guest
Dribbling is brilliant on 2011, especially using close control. It looks really good when you trick a defender one way and drag the ball the other and create that bit of space for yourself. One of the things I enjoy most about the game 
D
DagsJT
Guest
You just flick the right stick when jogging, as far as I know they don't work when standing or sprinting?
WishMaster 23
Glorioso
I can see your problem because I felt it already too, but I think it's not that big of a deal...I think it doesn't really get in the way of the flow of the game or the enjoyment of the gameplay, but that's me...of course.
I think that anyone that has some trouble adapting has a strong alternative to try FIFA 11. It seems like people want to enjoy PES but when they don't they try and take all the credit from the Konami game. I'm not saying that is the case here but in my opinion it is a general issue.
Jimmy G-Force
Resident PES Fanman
Yes, you need to press L1 and a direction on the right, as opposed to L2 which are feints that are player specific.
D
DagsJT
Guest
So is flicking the right stick without holding any triggers just stepovers then? It definately did something anyway
