PES 2011 Discussion thread

nerf said:
For the last time, those of us who have highlighted an issue with AI off-the-ball movement in the PES2011 demo are NOT talking about a lack of FORWARD runs. Forget the word 'forward' completely.

The problem is a lack of awareness of and use of space, in situations where you expect them to make movements to get open, to find gaps between opponents, and most of all to create good spacing between teammates.

As I've already posted, I see this sort of thing a lot:



That is not good use of space, or of width, or of intelligent movement to create an angle to receive a pass. Three players are giving me the same 'option'; you wouldn't see that in real life. No matter what my tactics could theoretically be set to, they shouldn't do that!

The LB/L1 trigger run button in FIFA is a facility with which to specifically trigger a FORWARD run. It says to your teammate: attempt an incisive run so I can play you in behind the defender. It does not come into the conversation when talking about the general effort of your teammates toward making themselves available for passes in any direction, nor to maintain intelligent spacing.
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Totally agree with you. After many many games on the demo, and after playing with, so much human players here at home, the players do not run into space as they should do.

Sometimes it reminds me that teams when losing where the player stay static because they dont believe they can do nothing to win.

Remember the Arsenal vs Braga, game, braga looks like the pes Players.

Me and my brother are football players, me for 18 years now and my brother for 12, and the first thing my brother said when he played the game, was " why don´t the players run for space? why are they static? ".

For an example i play a 4-3-3 wide open, and specifically adjust the team style to play for the wings and the player just dont do enough runs trough the wings.

Most of the times i have to do 1-2 so the players run into space and i can do some wing plays. Imagine when my number 10 has the ball my winger should open wide and make a run so that i can put a ball on the back of the sideback of the defender.

Most of the times it happens what was shown in the images nerf posted
 
Radiation said:
I'm just wondering why it had happened. Was it because the support play or whatever setting is is, was set to compact play so bunches of team mates come towards you when you have the ball... or was it just default sliders and if so it then opens that problem up to all of us.
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I believe it was the default Bayern settings. Like I said, I don't think tactics should explain away illogical behaviour such as that. It should be very simple for van Bommel and Ribery to recognise that they could move even just a few yards to open up passing angles either side of Messi.
 
Regarding those pictures posted on page 396, The FA Cup and Barclays Premier League are officially sponsored, licensed? That is quality.

Does anyone have a full list of all leagues, cups etc

thanks.
 
I must have another copy of the PES demo. My fucking players are running. Even in those screenshots what's wrong with playing the ball up the line? If you play that ball he runs onto it with pace giving momentum to turn the defender.

Another option would be L1 + X to the player on the right which would send Bardstruber up the flank as well.

Am I missing something here?
 
zeemeister said:
I must have another copy of the PES demo. My fucking players are running. Even in those screenshots what's wrong with playing the ball up the line? If you play that ball he runs onto it with pace giving momentum to turn the defender.

Another option would be L1 + X to the player on the right which would send Bardstruber up the flank as well.

Am I missing something here?
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Im my opinion yes you are. In the image one of the player at least should be right ahead the defender, not just run when i pass the ball.

In football players don´t run only when we pass the ball, this if they want a dynamic style of football, for example barcelona, to do that style of play, players have to be in constant movement.


Player should run in to space even if the ball dont get passed to them, because doing that, they create space for the player with the ball and a possible oppening for a great pass...

That´s what is lacking in my oppinion.

Oh and the L1+X option is a valid one but not always, for example when im at the ball with lets say Xavi messi and pedro should make a run forward to open space, and create passing oppurtunies, and to do L1+X i have to pass first to messi for example and then do L1+X to Xavi again so that Messi make the run, and that´s not right
 
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Why are peeps saying there is no after touch spin on the ball it is. I was even using it on pes2010 when takin corners inswinging and outswinging. i also use it for free kicks. Try it with a corner just as the player takes the kick hold left or right on the stick, the longer you hold it the greater the curve. i am really suprised you lot didnt know.:CONFUSE:
 
I recorded a video of 1 half and have, without consciously trying to do it, captured 3 occasions where my side back is making a run in behind Barcas defence and 1 other occasion where the side back is running into the open space ahead.

1st period of play shows both side backs pushing forward into the space ahead, first the left then when the play comes his way the right. The right back receives the ball, plays a pass, waits then runs off into the open space in the opponents final 3rd, running onto a pass and charging to the byline and putting in a low cross which gets deflected out.

Second piece shows the right back again running into the space ahead, recieving the ball, playing a pass and then charging off into the final third again, being let down by a poor pass.

In the thrid part I have too much footage but whats important is that when the ball comes down to the left side of the pitch, the left back plays a pass, jogs forward, when the left winger play his pass upwards the left back sprints forward into the space and as the camera pans up you can see him in the corner of the screen running in behind the Barca defense.

Last part shows the right back running off into the open space ahead when the DMF gets possession of the ball and is let down by the pass.

All of this is with Japan, with absolutely no editing of gameplan, I think I might have set in game offensive levels to full but Im not sure.

YouTube - PES2011 Ataccking side backs

When sidebacks attack like that I dont know how you can say there is a problem. I also have 2 more videos on my account that show goals scored in the box by players that started their runs inside their own half, there is no problem with runs!

In response to nerf what you are seeing there is bad team setup.
 
I've played something close to 100 games in the demo and there is absolutely no problem with players making off the ball runs.It can only get better with the card system in the retail version.
There are too many drama queens who are picking on the most ridiculous and least important aspect of the game.
 
YouTube - Ribery off ball run

the run that Ribery makes after Olic receives the ball is pretty impressive. he even slows down after he's found space

sorry for the shaky cam

edit. still processing, if your impatient like me then click on the vid and view it on the youtube page :)
 
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buzzyhead said:
Why are peeps saying there is no after touch spin on the ball it is. I was even using it on pes2010 when takin corners inswinging and outswinging. i also use it for free kicks. Try it with a corner just as the player takes the kick hold left or right on the stick, the longer you hold it the greater the curve. i am really suprised you lot didnt know.:CONFUSE:
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Expander is talking about aftertouch in open play not from set pieces.
 
Jamezinho said:
I'm quite satisfied with the player runs and off the ball movement in PES2011. I play the demo mainly as Bayern and I'm often seeing Badstuber and Lahm making overlapping runs beyond Ribery and Robben. It's not a case of the fullbacks bombing forward with every attack, but if I slow down the play and hold up in the midfield then they will push forward to offer support down the flanks. Dani Alves is the best example of this in the demo.

I'm also seeing the centrebacks pushing forward on the odd occassion. I scored a lovely goal with Van Buyten when he burst into the penalty area after making a run from the halfway line. I put him through one-on-one and he managed a lovely finish. It reminded me of this Tony Adams classic:

YouTube - Tony Adams Wonder Goal

I agree with Seabass's philosophy on player runs - it should be in the hands of the AI. The last thing I want is the ability to trigger runs left, right and centre like the other game. Football is a team game and you have to rely on the intelligence of your team-mates to make runs or create space for themselves, and the vision and ability of the man in possession to deliver. I'm not saying PES is perfect in this regard - players are a little too static for my liking at times - but it does a pretty good job of it.

Edit: @ Expander - Manual after-touch categorically doe not exist in PES2011. A few minutes play is enough to know this, and if it did exist Konami would have certainly announced it as a new feature.
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Thats this new AI from the Management Edit screen I was referring to in an earlier post. This is where the ante was raised to a whole new level in PES with regards tactical AI circumstantial initiation. Barcelona and Bayern both have Overlapping CB's as the main change in their preset tactics whether they are level or behind, over set durations within the 90 minutes. I love this feature, it's very noticable, and over a 15 minute game we really will see alot of changes in AI variation causing dominance then swings of momentum as the game unfolds. I think the old PES adage of 'no game is ever the same' will be highlighted in a far deeper context from here on in.

Edit - For those who dont know, pressing R2 after you have passed the ball, and before it reaches it's intended target, sets the initial passer on a run forward. This is as close as you will ever get to triggering runs in PES, and it's probably only there as the relevance still lies with the player you controlling.
 
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Ern Dog said:
I think I might have set in game offensive levels to full but Im not sure.

When sidebacks attack like that I dont know how you can say there is a problem. I also have 2 more videos on my account that show goals scored in the box by players that started their runs inside their own half, there is no problem with runs!

In response to nerf what you are seeing there is bad team setup.
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Thanks for the video, but it has already been pointed out that this is not about a lack of forward runs nor is it explainable by dodgy tactics (besides, Konami shipped their demo with those team setups).

kouroux said:
There are too many drama queens who are picking on the most ridiculous and least important aspect of the game.
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I think sensible off-the-ball movement is important to any representation of football. If I want to play a realistic style of football, I would like my teammates to behave logically for it to work well. I guess different people prioritise different things.

J79 said:
the run that Ribery makes after Olic receives the ball is pretty impressive.
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The first movement that Ribery makes is to go and stand in the same position that Olic already is. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

You can also see that typical expanse of empty grass between Olic and the sideline. Another symptom of the AI's lack of awareness of space is the way that attackers and midfielders are commonly reluctant to provide genuine width. The majority of their movements are directed infield, yet the defensive lines all play so narrow that it would make sense for opponents to seek that space out wide more often.
 
nerf said:
Thanks for the video, but it has already been pointed out that this is not about a lack of forward runs nor is it explainable by dodgy tactics (besides, Konami shipped their demo with those team setups).


I think sensible off-the-ball movement is important to any representation of football. If I want to play a realistic style of football, I would like my teammates to behave logically for it to work well. I guess different people prioritise different things.


The first movement that Ribery makes is to go and stand in the same position that Olic already is. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

You can also see that typical expanse of empty grass between Olic and the sideline. Another symptom of the AI's lack of awareness of space is the way that attackers and midfielders are commonly reluctant to provide genuine width. The majority of their movements are directed infield, yet the defensive lines all play so narrow that it would make sense for opponents to seek that space out wide more often.
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I think its more a case of people see different things. Priorities in that regard are a paramount.

As for the width, defensive lines, and defensive width, those three are just a small part of the tactical slider variations you can change quite dramatically, as you see fit.
 
nerf said:
I think sensible off-the-ball movement is important to any representation of football. If I want to play a realistic style of football, I would like my teammates to behave logically for it to work well. I guess different people prioritise different things.


The first movement that Ribery makes is to go and stand in the same position that Olic already is. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about.

You can also see that typical expanse of empty grass between Olic and the sideline. Another symptom of the AI's lack of awareness of space is the way that attackers and midfielders are commonly reluctant to provide genuine width. The majority of their movements are directed infield, yet the defensive lines all play so narrow that it would make sense for opponents to seek that space out wide more often.
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Tbh, all the stuff you're talking about, is related to every player's AI, whether it be the reaction stat, the teamwork stat, specific cards, specific sliders, etc.

You are totally dismissing any of that by not taking them into consideration. You don't even know what the settings were on in that game or the one still picture you posted.

I play the demo and play it like I do realistically and never found a problem.

In 2010, I always fiddled with the sliders and things would work accordingly, also taking into consideration every player's individuality, stats, or cards.

It may not be perfect but you just cannot take one still pic and say that's how the AI behaves all the time. That is misleading.
 
nerf said:
Thanks for the video, but it has already been pointed out that this is not about a lack of forward runs nor is it explainable by dodgy tactics (besides, Konami shipped their demo with those team setups).
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I know you have said there is no issue with forward runs, that video was not for you. There are plenty of people that have posted in here, some on the last few pages that are criticizing forward runs.

What you have shown is explainable by poor tactics because thats what it is. I used to see stuff like that alot when I first started with the demo and I found it massively frustrating, but now that I am constantly editing the gameplan I cannot remember seeing too often, if at all.
 
nerf said:
I think sensible off-the-ball movement is important to any representation of football. If I want to play a realistic style of football, I would like my teammates to behave logically for it to work well. I guess different people prioritise different things.
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It's already at a very high level.You have to realize that even in real football, not every players make the most logical runs when you think they should during different phases of attacking or defending.
I get frustrated during United matches when I see x player not making the run I would want him to make but it's part of football.
It's not perfect in real life and it ain't surely gonna be perfect in a videogame, PES has achieved a great work in terms of AI and off the ball runs.
I'm genuinely wondering how you can see problems in that particular aspect of the game or maybe you expect far too much realism.
 
Aah how did I not see that. In the screenshot posted the score is 0-0 Bayerns default management setting when level is quick counter and Possession game defensive. That is why the players are so clustered when Bayern have the ball. Remove the setting altogether (it overrides all changes you make) and change the team mentality to Offensive/ Super offensive or even no preference. Your SB and SMF will run up like men possessed.

And for the love of all things holy don't come back and ask why you should change settings to make players run.
 
A more pressing issue with the pics NERF posted is the amount of times you see 3 players just standing next to each other.

It's not the forward runs that are the issue it's just the unawareness of how to use space (not necessarily just forward space) that the AI seems to demonstrate all to often. This gives the static feeling IMO.
 
Lami said:
It may not be perfect but you just cannot take one still pic and say that's how the AI behaves all the time. That is misleading.
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I didn't say it happens 100% of the time, I was showing a couple of examples of the kind of thing that I see often when playing the demo with any of the four teams.

You want more? I can do more.





The obvious similarity of the above two, taken five match-minutes apart, do not show a particularly organic, active or inventive AI.

If the teams are set up badly, call Mr Seabass :). I think it's telling when people come back with: "set your team to super-offensive to make them run". That's missing the point. I don't want them to be more attacking, I want them to position themselves more intelligently.

The point I was trying to make is that I feel, generally speaking, that the AI is not very active or aware in naturally seeking space that I would expect them to seek. This has a negative impact on the way the game plays and feels, for me.

There's probably little point me trying to express this further. If you don't see it, you don't see it. I don't agree that there are any excuses for why van Bommel isn't dropping into those acres of space behind him, or why Ribery isn't drifting wide for a simple option down the line, or why the three of them stand on each others toes, regardless of whether the tactical instructions could be altered to this or that. That's just football.
 
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I don't think the teammate AI is bad, but it does annoy me when your teammates show a lack of common sense.

Sliders, cards and player attributes shouldn't even be involved in some of the decisions that are made - when you have a kick about with your mates down the park, space is exploited and support is offered to the ball carrier, this is with "players" that would have attributes of about 40 across the board if they were realistically added to PES :P...

As I said, on the whole I like the teammate AI and don't have much of a problem with it, but there are the odd occasions where it seems a little dumb.
 
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