PES 2011 Discussion thread

[Lami]

Sounds the opposite to me. '360 degree movement' is a quantitative statement, clearly stating the amount of control you are given to a player. 'Total Freedom' is a subjective statement, doesn't mean anything, what exactly have they implemented to give 'Total Freedom'? Just sounds like marketing bollocks to give the impression of improvement without substance, players are still running on fixed lines from they videos we've seen....

The term 360 degree movement is marketing bollocks to me.

360 degrees dribbling?

Can you move in 360 degrees?

 

[romagnoli]

The term 360 degree movement is marketing bollocks to me.

Can you move in 360 degrees?

As near to 360 degrees as you can perceive. Unless you mean PES?

 

[Dusse]

Can you move in 360 degrees?

What? Of course I can?

 

[dannyfc2]

The term 360 degree movement is marketing bollocks to me.

Ok, then explain to me exactly what 'Total Freedom' in the next Pro Evo actually means.

 

[Expander]

I had a opportunity to play pes2011 at e3 and the movement system via the analog stick is now as loose and as free as the system used in fifa10,the passing system is a hybrid of fifas manual system that is adjusted a few degrees based on each individual players stats being more intuitive and giving the user a greater sense of weight and feel of the ball,i would equate it to feeling more like semi-assisted rather then as wild as fifas manual system(with the ai never overiding your directional commands or placing the ball to a different player then the one you direct it to).

The beauty is theres more freedom now in pes2011s passing system then in fifas and arc and curl is applied via player foot position(you create the angle and tradjectory based on the direction you face the player relative to the direction you direct the thumbstick).


For me as someone who plays both fifa and pes now i would say in my humble opinion that konamis system is more user friendly and realistic and player individuality or what makes pes unique is not compromised.

Is it different,yes it is,is it fifa,no,its a much more realistic measured game of football that requires a greater degree of precision from the user that feels much more natural and organic.

 

[ALBICELESTE2010]

I had a opportunity to play pes2011 at e3 and the movement system via the analog stick is now as loose and as free as the system used in fifa10,the passing system is a hybrid of fifas manual system that is adjusted a few degrees based on each individual players stats being more intuitive and giving the user a greater sense of weight and feel of the ball,i would equate it to feeling more like semi-assisted rather then as wild as fifas manual system(with the ai never overiding your directional commands or placing the ball to a different player then the one you direct it to).

The beauty is theres more freedom now in pes2011s passing system then in fifas and arc and curl is applied via player foot position(you create the angle and tradjectory based on the direction you face the player relative to the direction you direct the thumbstick).


For me as someone who plays both fifa and pes now i would say in my humble opinion that konamis system is more user friendly and realistic and player individuality or what makes pes unique is not compromised.

Is it different,yes it is,is it fifa,no,its a much more realistic measured game of football that requires a greater degree of precision from the user that feels much more natural and organic.

Sounds promising, very promising....just look at our faces.......

 

[Rodelero]

The term 360 degree movement is marketing bollocks to me.

You could argue it somewhat was for PES, where it was such a constrained factor - but 360 degrees - where you no longer feel constrained to any of those old angles is a great feature. Marketing bollocks is the + on the end of Personality and the Pro at the start of passing. 360 degrees is exactly what it says on the tin.

 

[Marlon Anthony]

Hope this "Total freedom" is as good as it sounds, just had the most infuriating game on PES against a computer that cheats 10 times harder in any cup or league mode then it does exhibition.

The passing on PES2010 is too inconsitent and at times random, im just fed up of passing to a player at short distance and the game still decides to drive to my centre forward resulting in either lost possesion or an offside which my striker is, for some reason 20 yards offside.

Not to mention how desperatley the game needs power bars on your passing but especially through balls, earlier there wass a gaping hole in the defence with Rooney poised to run off the shoulder of his oppenent.. so i hit Triangle thinking Lamps would place a perfectly weighted ball into space but no, he taps it about a yard away from himself and runs off like he's done his job and waiting for Rooney to finish it off..

I came so close to driving my pad into my floor with the fury of a thousand suns but instead decided to wait until i stood no chance in the penalty shootout against an inch perfect CPU and an extremley vague penalty system.

I tried hard to avoid sounding like a Troll but i just felt i had to rant about it to someone apart from myself.

 

[Lami]

As near to 360 degrees as you can perceive. Unless you mean PES?

What? Of course I can?

Really? I'm not being sarcastic here btw. How can someone literally move in 360 degrees? More angles yes but surely not 360 degrees?

Ok, then explain to me exactly what 'Total Freedom' in the next Pro Evo actually means.

It means just that, Total. Freedom.

Should mean you have all the freedom you want in picking more angles to pass or run to.

If I stand still and move in circle then I'm surely moving in different directions, but not literally 360 degrees, no?

Also, if we have that many degrees, 360, shouldn't it be a hassle trying to find the right angle to move to?

For example I want to move 50 degrees but instead I move 45 or 46 degrees, and I bump into the opposition, wouldn't that infuriate me because that's not what I wanted? Because of the 360 degrees then finding the right direction would be truly difficult and sensitive.

 

[Lami]

Hope this "Total freedom" is as good as it sounds, just had the most infuriating game on PES against a computer that cheats 10 times harder in any cup or league mode then it does exhibition.

The passing on PES2010 is too inconsitent and at times random, im just fed up of passing to a player at short distance and the game still decides to drive to my centre forward resulting in either lost possesion or an offside which my striker is, for some reason 20 yards offside.

Not to mention how desperatley the game needs power bars on your passing but especially through balls, earlier there wass a gaping hole in the defence with Rooney poised to run off the shoulder of his oppenent.. so i hit Triangle thinking Lamps would place a perfectly weighted ball into space but no, he taps it about a yard away from himself and runs off like he's done his job and waiting for Rooney to finish it off..

I came so close to driving my pad into my floor with the fury of a thousand suns but instead decided to wait until i stood no chance in the penalty shootout against an inch perfect CPU and an extremley vague penalty system.

I tried hard to avoid sounding like a Troll but i just felt i had to rant about it to someone apart from myself.

It ain't trolling when you put it this way

 

[_anderson]

Hope this "Total freedom" is as good as it sounds, just had the most infuriating game on PES against a computer that cheats 10 times harder in any cup or league mode then it does exhibition.

The passing on PES2010 is too inconsitent and at times random, im just fed up of passing to a player at short distance and the game still decides to drive to my centre forward resulting in either lost possesion or an offside which my striker is, for some reason 20 yards offside.

Not to mention how desperatley the game needs power bars on your passing but especially through balls, earlier there wass a gaping hole in the defence with Rooney poised to run off the shoulder of his oppenent.. so i hit Triangle thinking Lamps would place a perfectly weighted ball into space but no, he taps it about a yard away from himself and runs off like he's done his job and waiting for Rooney to finish it off..

I came so close to driving my pad into my floor with the fury of a thousand suns but instead decided to wait until i stood no chance in the penalty shootout against an inch perfect CPU and an extremley vague penalty system.

I tried hard to avoid sounding like a Troll but i just felt i had to rant about it to someone apart from myself.

No mate, totally fair rant, not trolling at all. I'm with you, PES 2010 is so frustrating, especially on passing and build up... But we've had enough evidence that passing is totally overhauled this year.

Of course we will only feel if it's good enough when the demo comes.

@Expander Really? You were there? Tell us more about PES 2011.

 

[_anderson]

@Lami The question isn't if we can move in 360º (which obviously we can't move in a perfect circle) but if we can run, with the ball, in so close angles.

 

[Dusse]

Really? I'm not being sarcastic here btw. How can someone literally move in 360 degrees? More angles yes but surely not 360 degrees?

Are you serious? It's not about moving in a perfect circle or anything. Example: if I stand still, of course I can move in any of the 360 degrees available. Sure, the human body doesn't quite have the precision so that I can decide that I want to move at exactly 146 degrees, but it is very much possible. Are you really serious? Either you are not or you don't understand what 360 degrees dribbling is.

 

[Leo]

What are you talking about? Of course everyone in the world can move in 360 degrees, which only really means that I can go in whatever angle I choose in all directions. I saw how someone thought that should be limited to 15 players in the entire game, what?!

And if you want to move in 50 degrees but instead move in 44 or 45 degrees, well then I say welcome to the real world where directions and angles aren't static and you don't move in straight lines or exactly as you want.

 

[_anderson]

Are you serious? It's not about moving in a perfect circle or anything. Example: if I stand still, of course I can move in any of the 360 degrees available. Sure, the human body doesn't quite have the precision so that I can decide that I want to move at exactly 146 degrees, but it is very much possible. Are you really serious? Either you are not or you don't understand what 360 degrees dribbling is.

Well that's true.

Like I said, I'm still not sure what this speed stars really means. I think it's just that, someone that can run and change directions faster than anyone else. Doesn't actually have to mean they can move in more angles than anyone else.

 

[Lami]

Are you serious? It's not about moving in a perfect circle or anything. Example: if I stand still, of course I can move in any of the 360 degrees available. Sure, the human body doesn't quite have the precision so that I can decide that I want to move at exactly 146 degrees, but it is very much possible. Are you really serious? Either you are not or you don't understand what 360 degrees dribbling is.

Yes I am serious. So the question is, why do we want 360 degree movement if it can't be achieved?

No I don't understand what 360 dribbling is, because you guys are confusing me.

To me 360 dribbling means 360 degree dribbling, meaning I can dribble in any angle of the 360 possible angles from the position I'm at, right?

So, in reality, yes I can move in the angle that I want, which isn't 360 imo. Where as in a game, picking the perfect angle is pretty sensitive specially that it is based on an analogue stick. It is really difficult to achieve the angle I want to move to, where as in real life it ain't that hard because we don't have to use a very sensitive control stick to move ourselves.

What I prefer is more angles, which gives us more freedom in movement and passing, but at the same time limit us so that the analogue stick wouldn't be that sensitive so we can achieve the angle we want to move to. I'm not sure how many angles that is, but maybe 32, 64, or whatever it is.

In the end, my point is, trying to achieve the 360 degrees in a game isn't easy, and not realistic gameplay wise. In real life it's a different thing. It's just that replicating it into a game is asking for too much, specially when games are supposed to be just that, games.

 

[Gab_]

It could be that Messi for example can take sharper turns (more degrees between directions) and still keep up the pace. Or just the fact that he takes more touches and thus you can turn more often than other players. That way it looks like he can turn in more angles in tight spaces.

So, in reality, yes I can move in the angle that I want, which isn't 360 imo.

Why is that not 360? And why is it so important to move to the exact direction that you want to that you would be able to do with 32 or 64? It's not like you would notice that you didn't aim exactly correct if you miss by 5-10 degrees. It's just that the overall look of the game become rail free and everyone moves much more organic.

 

[Lami]

It could be that Messi for example can take sharper turns (more degrees between directions) and still keep up the pace. Or just the fact that he takes more touches and thus you can turn more often than other players. That way it looks like he can turn in more angles in tight spaces.

I think the way he switches directions at such pace in that clip looks a bit funny. Reminds me of ISS.

 

[Dusse]

Yes I am serious. So the question is, why do we want 360 degree movement if it can't be achieved?

It can be achieved, and the inaccuracy of the human body is already replicated by the fact that you can't possibly pick out the exact angel with your thumb either.

So, in reality, yes I can move in the exact angle that I want, which isn't 360 imo.

Uhm, what? Are you telling me that you can't move in 360 degrees in reality? Are you a robot?

Where as in a game, picking the perfect angle is pretty sensitive specially that it is based on an analogue stick. It is really difficult to achieve the angle I want to move to.

I don't undestand what your point is. In a game it is hard to pick exactly the angle you want to run at. In reality it's hard to run at exactly the angel you want. So what is your point?

What I prefer is more angles, which gives us more freedom in movement and passing, but at the same time limit us so that the analogue stick wouldn't be that sensitive so we can achieve the angle we want to move to. I'm not sure how many angles that is, but maybe 32, 64, or whatever it is.

Why should they limit us? 360 degree dribbling works perfectly fine. I bet FPS players would be pretty pissed if there were spots where they couldn't aim.

In the end, my point is, trying to achieve the 360 degrees in a game isn't easy, and not realistic gameplay wise. In real life it's a different thing. It's just that replicating it into a game is asking for too much, specially when games are supposed to be just that, games.

Is it asking too much to ask Konami to do what EA did a year ago? Really?

 

[Lami]

It could be that Messi for example can take sharper turns (more degrees between directions) and still keep up the pace. Or just the fact that he takes more touches and thus you can turn more often than other players. That way it looks like he can turn in more angles in tight spaces.



Why is that not 360?

Frigging hell I confused myself right now with all this 360 talk. I mean't "can't".

 

[Lami]

Is it asking too much to ask Konami to do what EA did a year ago? Really?

First of all, no, EA did not come close to 360. That was a gimmick they used to buy people. Don't even try and go there now. EA themselves even confessed it wasn't 360, and many people know it's not 360. I'm not complaining that it isn't, but trying to convince people that it is when it obviously isn't is wrong.

Now, my point is that this is a game and it's asking too much to move in that many directions/angles which are actually hard to achieve in real life anyway. Do we really need 360 degrees? Can we achieve it? Or is it better to have more angles to move to that are still precise? Don't forget this is a game, which is supposed to be fun as well.

 

[Dusse]

First of all, no, EA did not come close to 360. That was a gimmick they used to buy people. Don't even try and go there now. EA themselves even confessed it wasn't 360, and many people know it's not 360. I'm not complaining that it isn't, but trying to convince people that it is when it is obviously isn't is wrong.

Proof please? That is not true. I'd rather trust Gary Patterson, Creative Director at EA: http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/fifa-10-sony-playstation-3-microsoft-xbox-360/781847-fifa10-360-degree-dribbling.html

Even when they announced the game the press release said "the first true 360 degree dribbling system".

 

[Gab_]

First of all, no, EA did not come close to 360. That was a gimmick they used to buy people. Don't even try and go there now. EA themselves even confessed it wasn't 360, and many people know it's not 360. I'm not complaining that it isn't, but trying to convince people that it is when it obviously isn't is wrong.

Now, my point is that this is a game and it's asking too much to move in that many directions/angles which are actually hard to achieve in real life anyway. Do we really need 360 degrees? Can we achieve it? Or is it better to have more angles to move to that are still precise? Don't forget this is a game, which is supposed to be fun as well.

I've tried jogging in FIFA 10 and just before each touch change the direction the smallest amount I can, and it does that change. It's impossible to try to change 1 degree at the time, but it surely is 360ish possible degrees to move in. However I find this very unrealistic because each touch is too perfect. Each touch should be calculated for errors depending on the situation and the player's ball control attributes.

Edit: I should point out that when you do these small turn you won't be able to complete a circle. If you start by your own goal you'll almost end up in the corner flag on the other side. To move in a small "circle" you need to take much sharper turns, like 8/16 directions.

 

[romagnoli]

360 is the easiest way to explain the end result - movement with the ball that feels close enough to 360 to be indistinguishable from an actual 360 directional system. You will never find someone truthfully say they wanted to move in a certain direction in FIFA but the left stick wasn't sensitive enough to give that result. You can already see that the 16 directional movement in PES 2011 is not as free.

 

[_anderson]

360 is the easiest way to explain the end result - movement with the ball that feels close enough to 360 to be indistinguishable from an actual 360 directional system. You will never find someone truthfully say they wanted to move in a certain direction in FIFA but the left stick wasn't sensitive enough to give that result. You can already see that the 16 directional movement in PES 2011 is not as free.

How do you know it's 16 directions? If Expander really played the game he said the "360º" felt as fluid as Fifa. So it's surely more than 16 directions. I'm betting on 32.

 

[Ameppe]

I had a opportunity to play pes2011 at e3 and the movement system via the analog stick is now as loose and as free as the system used in fifa10,the passing system is a hybrid of fifas manual system that is adjusted a few degrees based on each individual players stats being more intuitive and giving the user a greater sense of weight and feel of the ball,i would equate it to feeling more like semi-assisted rather then as wild as fifas manual system(with the ai never overiding your directional commands or placing the ball to a different player then the one you direct it to).

The beauty is theres more freedom now in pes2011s passing system then in fifas and arc and curl is applied via player foot position(you create the angle and tradjectory based on the direction you face the player relative to the direction you direct the thumbstick).


For me as someone who plays both fifa and pes now i would say in my humble opinion that konamis system is more user friendly and realistic and player individuality or what makes pes unique is not compromised.

Is it different,yes it is,is it fifa,no,its a much more realistic measured game of football that requires a greater degree of precision from the user that feels much more natural and organic.

good to hear
things are going better every day, and we are having more and more confirmations that pes 2011 is the dawn if a new era for pes
(little citation to wenb latest podcast)

 

[gomito#10]

It worries me a bit this video. Murphy kept saying he wants to win back PES's hardcore fans, the hardcore fans havent gone anywhere. The hardcore fans are the ones that have always loved PES for its realism and appreciated it'rendition of replicating real life footballing technique, which it masters. Those fans that have left for Fifa have done it because they loved PES for different reasons to the hardcore fans. I really dont understand how that isnt obviously as clear as day. Strange comments.

They say we want a different game, I dont like that either. This whole power based pass and shot seems to me to be a bit of a sell-out to attract back the PES ex-pats that went to Fifa. As does the tricks and that ridiculous Rainbow Flick. I want the weight of the pass to be attributed to the players accuracy, which is made up not only as direction as certain people seem to think on here, but also, weight of pass and speed of pass, both of which require great technique, all those combined are what make an accurate pass. Currently the top players can ping the ball about with speed, weight and direction. Hence the reason ping pong passing. These are represented as the worlds best players, and their stats reflect that. Play with lesser players and the results are totally different. Thats individualism and the heart of PES.

This power bar, which I dont believe is just apparent with the L2 Modifier, I think it will be like Fifa's. Its really taking the passing speed and weight out of the equation. Also, the powerful headers, shouldnt that be down to the player ? If he's good in the air, good response, good jump and decent heading technique he'll power it home. A lesser player wont. I dont want the option to make all players head like Andy Gray.

I hope I'm wrong and none of the stats are lost, I dont want any removed, each one lost makes the game move a little more away from a hardcore simulation, which is what it is, if played in the right hands with the right insight.

On a brighter note, the rest sounds fucking amazing.

you clearley have been playing a different game then the rest of us, pes 2008 and 2009 were fucking awful games

 

[Lami]

Proof please? That is not true. I'd rather trust Gary Patterson, Creative Director at EA: http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/fifa-10-sony-playstation-3-microsoft-xbox-360/781847-fifa10-360-degree-dribbling.html
Even when they announced the game the press release said "the first true 360 degree dribbling system".

You really believe EA's mumbo jumbo? Your choice then But I wouldn't ever take their word as gospel.

I've tried jogging in FIFA 10 and just before each touch change the direction the smallest amount I can, and it does that change. It's impossible to try to change 1 degree at the time, but it surely is 360ish possible degrees to move in. However I find this very unrealistic because each touch is too perfect. Each touch should be calculated for errors depending on the situation and the player's ball control attributes.

Edit: I should point out that when you do these small turn you won't be able to complete a circle. If you start by your own goal you'll almost end up in the corner flag on the other side. To move in a small "circle" you need to take much sharper turns, like 8/16 directions.

That's my point. We don't really need it imo. Moving in 32 angles while dribbling with the ball is more than enough for a football game.

360 is the easiest way to explain the end result - movement with the ball that feels close enough to 360 to be indistinguishable from an actual 360 directional system. You will never find someone truthfully say they wanted to move in a certain direction in FIFA but the left stick wasn't sensitive enough to give that result. You can already see that the 16 directional movement in PES 2011 is not as free.

Well since you haven't played it, I can't take your word on it. We already have more angles in 2010 anyway, and you can tell by playing it

32 dribbling angles ftw

 

[Gab_]

I still don't understand why you don't want 360 degrees when it doesn't bring anything negative with it? You can still turn in your 32 degrees if you want, it's just that players don't move in the exact same 32 angles all the time.

 

[Dusse]

You really believe EA's mumbo jumbo? Your choice then But I wouldn't ever take their word as gospel.

Well, too bad that's all you have to respond to that. It's kind of hard to take you seriously when you just avoid the subject when you're proved wrong.

At least try to show me some kind of proof of your claims. You said yourself that EA confessed that it's not true 360 degree dribbling - they haven't. I've never heard about some kind of credible people claiming it's not either.

EA (and most certainly Gary Patterson) are a lot more credible than Konami etc.