PES 2011 Discussion thread

_anderson said:
So it's not baywatch, it's weird. Actually Fifa has one running animation similar to this one too. But better leave Fifa out of this, yes some players seem to have the same running animation from previous years... And it's not even the pose that bugs me, it's the legs. Something I've ranted about this before... And the press reports that 90% of the animations are new. So it seems they have left the worse ones in. But at least in the trailer footage they seem smooth enough. Let's see.
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tbh i dont care that much about the animations
i mean they try now for years with this mo-cap and kinda fail to implement it well, dunno...

for me just draw it like ps2 titles, so u have no probs with integration and u can do a lot more animations

010 is rly good game but it lacks balancing stuff, after some months online all started to do this bug crosses so it became just a bugfest easy goals
slow down the pace generally and do bugtesting and 011 will be great
 
mr_man said:
I think some people need to watch a PES 2010 video to see just how bad it looks compared to the footage we´ve seen. PES 11 is a world apart and then some.
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True thing, especially on how smooth it looks (PES 2011).

Apparently there's a huge fuss about PES 2011 at E3, many people wanting to try it and enjoying it. Considering PES is there only on (kinda) closed doors, this is huge. This statement should materialize in even positive reports/impressions in the next few days.
 
i think that pes11 to be better than other series , he have to be released with more animations of gameplay like shoot,head, fouls,keeper moves etc..etc..etc...and more and more animations
 
Por fin mas equipos Sudamericanos!!! Era hora de que Estudiantes estuviera en el juego!! Aguante el Pincha!

Muy bien Konami, este PES sin dudas será el mejor de la serie

At last more South American teams!!! It was time for Estudiantes to be in the game!

Well done Konami, this PES will be the best of the series
 
Was thinking last night, Konami should start working on next-gen consoles starting now. Get themselves familiar with the PS4 etc and have more time trying stuff with it. That way they won't be surprised like what happened between PS2 and PS3.
 
Lami said:
I thought its a new engine?
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It is apparently. Been rebuilt. As usual too many people are making comments on a few glimpses of video ie too easy to score goals etc etc.

The reviews all seem far more positive with regard to PES2011 which can only be a good thing.
 
Lami said:
Was thinking last night, Konami should start working on next-gen consoles starting now. Get themselves familiar with the PS4 etc and have more time trying stuff with it. That way they won't be surprised like what happened between PS2 and PS3.
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I actually wonder what Konami is gonna do in regards to an engine. They´re still using the 7(?) year old PS2 engine technically, and that could use an upgrade, but then again, could they possibly recreate the PES feel with a new engine?
 
From what I understood, Konami uses a new way to convert the motion-capture data into animations. It's called IK, which is confirmed that Konami uses it.
It makes better animations, but I wonder if you nescessary ( spelling? ) need a new engine for it...
 
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mr_man said:
I actually wonder what Konami is gonna do in regards to an engine. They´re still using the 7(?) year old PS2 engine technically, and that could use an upgrade, but then again, could they possibly recreate the PES feel with a new engine?
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Mate how KONAMI can use Ps2 old engine if they added totally new mo-capture technology. In PS2 era programers manualy create animations but in new mo-capture technology animations create real humans. If you want put mo-capture animations into a game you have to have right engine for it.
 
lons_pl said:
Mate how KONAMI can use Ps2 old engine if they added totally new mo-capture technology. In PS2 era programers manualy create animations but in new mo-capture technology animations create real humans. If you want put mo-capture animations into a game you have to have right engine for it.
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Stop embarrassing yourself at not knowing the difference between an engine (base code of an application) and the mocapped animations (content). You don't necessarily need a new engine to apply new animations. They can go with applying some tweaks here and there to accomodate the new animations. That's what they did last year with pathetic results from the technical point. Worse mocap implementation I've seen in years. I doubt they did a new engine from scratch for animations, that would take almos a full year to be done and Konami are short of programming talent, so they normally try to overcome this things by patching for the 1000th time an old game engine.

PS: In a previous post you even talk about the mocap and the physics engine, what is a very loose realtionship, because physics engine can go from the ball bouncing to deciding what animation will play in a barging situation. In an ideal world, a specific engine like Euphoria should be applied to all the objects (ball included), but we're VERY FAR from that, so they try to make little scripts for common situations so they "script events" as the outcome of certain common situations and assign the related animations eveytime those "event" happens.

I said in an earlier post that the only thing I fear from PES now that they have "awaken" after a 3 year nap is the technical implementation. Here, EA are truly impressive, while PES needs to show once and for all they are capable of developing a true next gen title in the technical aspect.

I would go farther into all this, but most of the people tends to know little about programming and show little interest about it or are too fanatic to apply reason (last year I spent an hour tryin to explain how nets are programmed and why mocapping a ball is a stupid idea and many people just ignored it to say "Ball mocapped! Rockz!!!!").
 
drekkard said:
last year I spent an hour tryin to explain how nets are programmed and why mocapping a ball is a stupid idea and many people just ignored it to say "Ball mocapped! Rockz!!!!"
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Really? :SHOCK: How do they mocap a ball? It is a single object that lacks any joints! :CONFUSE:
 
drekkard said:
Stop embarrassing yourself at not knowing the difference between an engine (base code of an application) and the mocapped animations (content). You don't necessarily need a new engine to apply new animations. They can go with applying some tweaks here and there to accomodate the new animations. That's what they did last year with pathetic results from the technical point. Worse mocap implementation I've seen in years. I doubt they did a new engine from scratch for animations, that would take almos a full year to be done and Konami are short of programming talent, so they normally try to overcome this things by patching for the 1000th time an old game engine.

PS: In a previous post you even talk about the mocap and the physics engine, what is a very loose realtionship, because physics engine can go from the ball bouncing to deciding what animation will play in a barging situation. In an ideal world, a specific engine like Euphoria should be applied to all the objects (ball included), but we're VERY FAR from that, so they try to make little scripts for common situations so they "script events" as the outcome of certain common situations and assign the related animations eveytime those "event" happens.

I said in an earlier post that the only thing I fear from PES now that they have "awaken" after a 3 year nap is the technical implementation. Here, EA are truly impressive, while PES needs to show once and for all they are capable of developing a true next gen title in the technical aspect.

I would go farther into all this, but most of the people tends to know little about programming and show little interest about it or are too fanatic to apply reason (last year I spent an hour tryin to explain how nets are programmed and why mocapping a ball is a stupid idea and many people just ignored it to say "Ball mocapped! Rockz!!!!").
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In this situation tell me why KONAMI made in 2008 new engine which can use new mo-capture technology and did't want do use it for 3 years? It's nonesense... I guess the old engine couldn't use new technology and they programmed the same full manually as PS2. Do you think they need 2 years to add 1000 new mo-capture animations? i don't think so..... I think KONAMI had much bigger problem than only mo-capture animaions. For me they didn't have right base(base for me is engine) to make game from scratch.
 
lons_pl said:
In this situation tell me why KONAMI made in 2008 new engine which can use new mo-capture technology and did't want do use it for 3 years? It's nonesense... I guess the old engine couldn't use new technology and they programmed the same full manually as PS2. Do you think they need 2 years to add 1000 new mo-capture animations? i don't think so..... I think KONAMI had much bigger problem than only mo-capture animaions. For me they didn't have right base(base for me is engine) to make game from scratch.
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Using motion capture isn't anything that needs new technology, it's been around for a long time. I think you are confused about motion capture and Inverse Kinematics. You're better of saying "new animation technology", because that makes more sense.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Seabass said in an interview not long ago that it was not a new engine for 2011, it's the same one that they are modifying. But I don't think that matters, because most people have no idea what a game engine is anyway.
 
After the Messi mo-cap sessions last year (that didn't make it into PES2010, but were clearly the start of work on PES2011) I remember Konami saying that they have been using mo-cap for years, even well back into the PS2 days. It's true that most animations used to be created artificially by hand, something the Konami team used to be brilliant at, but it's a myth that Konami have only just started using mo-cap. It's a complete fallacy that PES needs a rewrite from scratch to implement mo-cap, as it's something Konami has used in the old engine, although more sparingly.

All the talk of new engines, old engines, really is of no consequence if the final game plays well.
 
AlaaEG said:
Really? :SHOCK: How do they mocap a ball? It is a single object that lacks any joints! :CONFUSE:
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Obviously, besides the ball having the need to be a free object, and be only driven by a physics engine. But try to explain that to fanatic and over-hyped people... I had also to post for an hour to explain why mocapping a net has no sense at all. And at the end most of the people won't try to understand because it doesn't fit their ideal world.

PS: I like how "manual/freedom" passing looks in the trailers, though I've seen many bad AI reactions to those passes. I really hope they tweak the deffensive AI to be able to "read" passes as well depending on their stats. For example, Puyol should read through passes better than a low rated striker 90% of the time.
 
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The defense is the worst thing in that trailer. The defenders just stand there and enjoy getting dribbled by the opposition.
 
Guys, you know if all the south-american teams of Libertadores cup will be licensed ???
 
AlaaEG said:
The defense is the worst thing in that trailer. The defenders just stand there and enjoy getting dribbled by the opposition.
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I honestly don't know for sure, and could be terrible wrong, but the A.I in the trailer looks to be in a low difficulty level. We will only know how good/bad the A.I. is (and many other things) once we try the demo.
 
Jamezinho said:
After the Messi mo-cap sessions last year (that didn't make it into PES2010, but were clearly the start of work on PES2011) I remember Konami saying that they have been using mo-cap for years, even well back into the PS2 days. It's true that most animations used to be created artificially by hand, something the Konami team used to be brilliant at, but it's a myth that Konami have only just started using mo-cap. It's a complete fallacy that PES needs a rewrite from scratch to implement mo-cap, as it's something Konami has used in the old engine, although more sparingly.

All the talk of new engines, old engines, really is of no consequence if the final game plays well.
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True thing, I remember seeing motion capture actors listed in the credits since PES 4. Never saw older PES credits so I dunno.
 
Messi clearly has the best running animation in the trailer for me. His shoulders pumping up and down realistically (for some reason both titles haven't got this fact about "running" for years now).

Another point to make is as the fella above says. The defeding is dire. I just hope that throughballs like those can only be pulled off by suitable player like ozil, joe cole, kaka, robinho etc. The defenders just watch as a crossfield ball on the floor slices them open! I'm all for freedom, but that's a bit much.

Just a couple things I noticed from the trailer. (watched it on my Xbox earlier. :D).
 
drekkard said:
Obviously, besides the ball having the need to be a free object, and be only driven by a physics engine. But try to explain that to fanatic and over-hyped people... I had also to post for an hour to explain why mocapping a net has no sense at all. And at the end most of the people won't try to understand because it doesn't fit their ideal world.
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I remember that well.:LOL:

How could anyone seriously believe a ball would be mo-capped?
 
Ok some stuff:

1. Inverse Kinematics are NOT a new way to deal with motion captured data. It just improves that data by making dynamic calculations in real time about joint positions during a match.

2. Many people have a misleading idea of what an engine is. I will try to explain what someone explained to me pretty well a couple of months ago.

A game can be seen as an engine itself that contains several "engines" inside that deal with different functions of the game. Since PES 2008 it's a completely new game, with new "engines" for everything, or almost everything (because I believe many stuff was imported from older games).

The real problem with the "engines" since PES 2008 was that everything is very very basic, Seabass said it himself, they weren't ready for this generation.

So I believe that Konami has struggled (until now, I think) to further develop those "engines", and slowly made only small progresses on the graphical and gameplay engines.

Graphical engine is pretty much spot on by know, I'm sure everyone agrees with this. Technically/mathematically speaking, this one is probably the easier one to deal with.

I don't think that the gameplay engine (pretty much the core one) is bad, Konami knows what to do with this one. It just suffers from the poor quality of the animation and physics engine. Either way, the core gameplay engine seems to be vastly improved this year. The only thing left to see in this is the A.I..

I think the physics engine and collision system can be greatly improved without creating one from scratch (and the trailer shows this, FINALLY a collision system that works! Although ball physics could still be improved), but there's still (or seems to be) something wrong with the animations engine.

This I fail to understand, I'm not sure if it's a problem with the animation engine itself or just the animations. Why do they say that 90% of the animations are new but those ugly old running cycles seem to be the same?
Somehow I think this isn't related to bad motion capture or something like that, this animation engine surely has some kind of limitation.

Ah but well, at least it seems smoother and response times are fixed according to some first impressions.
 
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