PES 2009 General Discussion Etc. (STRICTLY NO FIFA TALK OR POLITICAL CHAT)

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Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

I'm with you, dcherry, as in I actually like to win the games feeling that I actually was fighting a supposed "higher power", but I can definitely understand that many people wouldn't like it that way, if such a power existed.

If you want to be completely fair - instead of just starting to bash everything and creating conspiracy theories, you'll read exactly what Seabass said in the interview and understand that what you're grasping at are examples that PSM3 give from their understanding.

Seabass said:
Perhaps PES encourages real fans because they feel they've played real football at the end of a ten-minute match. We play very close attention to include every element of football, including the momentum shifts that we've included for years. And the number of shots you can take in a match. All these things point to a realistic football experience. Pace and momentum. That's what we try to create.
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PSM3 said:
The momentum system is the 'voodoo' that controls the flow of play, leading players to think the game is 'bent' or conspiring against them. For example, when passes inexplicably start going awry, you miss every shot and the computer wins every tackle. Of course, the momentum system might not be a real 'thing' at all - just how play pans out, just like real life - but Seabass' admission is the closest we've come to confirmation. In other words, PES is a giant AI script, and all you can do is fight against it by weathering the storm.
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These are PSM's words, not Seabass's. PSM even says that 2hat they're talking about may not be real at all, and that Seabass mentioning a "momentum system" is as close as they ever got to get a confirmation that what they suspect is real.

You're just reading into it what you want to.

Seabass just mentions that they pay attention to details, and try to recreate a real match of football on a ten-minute match, including the number of shots and etc, and regarding pace and momentum - such as who team is more motivated in what period, etc (and this is me reading into it, also).

He never ever mentions something as the AI making you miss passes and the rest. That's PSM3's conspiration theory - one that I know that many of you are fond of.

Actually, if you look at Seabass's interview last year, when he was questioned about this supposed "cheating AI", he denied it altogether.

I didn't find the link from WENB, but here's another:

http://www.gamingaccess.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9342

L7: When you play against the computer the players in your team make more mistakes than the opposition players do. Is that just a way to raise the difficulty level or is it some sort of problem in the match engine?

What kind of mistakes?

L7: The mid-backs for example, runs more often away from their positions and lose the markings.

We don’t do that sort of things to heighten the difficulty level, what you are talking about is probably settings in your game system or your tactics.
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Best regards,

Paulo Tavares
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

drekkard said:
The interview where Seabass admits the artificla momentum and shift in the game, is the moment where this game goes to sh**t. I want to win or lose by my actions, not because the cpu thinks now I won't score.

That's the big problem of PES, being everytime more and more script-oriented. No manual passing, no manual shooting, no manual nothing, but hey, the CPU can also decide when you will play good or bad.

To me, that's unacceptable as a player.
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Of course, you know I agree, but alas, FIFA does this too. I've began noticing it more and more in 5v5 matches. Very unpleasant.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

winston said:
PSM3 say PES2009 is quite good :LOL:. That's a bit like Jack the Ripper's mum saying he's a nice boy really.

Didn't PSM3 report last year that the atrocity that is PES2008 was great?
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Really? Is that true, they gave 08 a good review?

Edit: if they did they lost all credibility with me
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Here's everything on the CVG site (inc PSM3) about last year's PES2008 on PS3 :
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/game.php?id=9696&all=news

Not much saying it's good, just a lot of Konami saying it's good.

360 articles are here, including one that implies it's really good in the heading but doesn't really say that in the text.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/game.php?id=9866

To summarise, PSM3 and their sister mags don't seem to have said much good about it.

Oh, and hi, I'm back, this happens about once a year and lasts for a period about as long as the game is playable (so mid-October last year).
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

zeemeister said:
ahem....As an ex 3rd division footballer and an avid football fan must confess that I still play PES2008...I feel so dirty
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That's why you're an 'ex' player. :lmao:Only joking mate don't take it personal,
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Do you guys know that PES is the favourite game of the Taliban and El Qaeda ??? I read that in the Franch PSM (or was it the English ???)

Just my two cents in this fascinating thread full of interesting facts...
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Do you guys know that PES is the favourite game of the Taliban and El Qaeda ??? I read that in the Franch PSM (or was it the English ???)
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Well, there's the proof that this game is realistic.

After all, those guys don't play games with anyone.

:tumble:

...tough crowd...
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Dar said:
THIS IS STRICTLY A PES 2009 DISCUSSION THREAD. NO BASHING. IF YOU DONT LIKE PES, THATS FINE, BUT DONT COME IN HERE BASHING PEOPLE'S OPINIONS OR CONSTANTLY ATTACKING THE GAME. SOME PEOPLE LIKE IT. This is a warning.
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Bump :whistle:
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

profit90 said:
Really? Is that true, they gave 08 a good review?

Edit: if they did they lost all credibility with me
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They gave PES2008 86%. They gave FIFA08 63%.

You can make your own mind up about their credibility. I know I have.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Between credibility and taste there's a really thin line.

You can say that they don't share your taste, as as such their reviews don't bear much weight to you. All fine, I have similar sites and magazines to whom I have that attitude towards.

Saying that they're not credible is a bit too much, in my opinion.

If Mumpleaser had reviewed the games, he'd probably have given the games similar scores - probably I would have, also.

Would that make us non-credible sources, or simply people with different tastes than yours?

Don't misuse more powerful words than necessary.

I'm off for the day. See you all tomorrow.

Best regards,

Paulo Tavares
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

JayD said:
That's why you're an 'ex' player. :lmao:Only joking mate don't take it personal,
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LOL that and the fact that I am shit.

I'm pleased with the news today. One of PES strengths is the editing. In fact as a Barca supporter I am not that perturbed about the lack of la liga license as long as I can edit the crap out of it. Big cheer for the transparecy images being saved...if it's true.
The MP3 chants imports is interesting and new and the BAL mode is also sounding promising. I just don't want people coming back and saying "sorry guys my friend was mistaken it's only 3 more kit templates" and they stick in those hideous heart ones ala PES4 (or was it 5).
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

pjft said:
Between credibility and taste there's a really thin line.

You can say that they don't share your taste, as as such their reviews don't bear much weight to you. All fine, I have similar sites and magazines to whom I have that attitude towards.

Saying that they're not credible is a bit too much, in my opinion.

If Mumpleaser had reviewed the games, he'd probably have given the games similar scores - probably I would have, also.

Would that make us non-credible sources, or simply people with different tastes than yours?

Don't misuse more powerful words than necessary.

I'm off for the day. See you all tomorrow.

Best regards,

Paulo Tavares
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:LOL:

Off to practise your pedantry?
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

gerd said:
Do you guys know that PES is the favourite game of the Taliban and El Qaeda ??? I read that in the Franch PSM (or was it the English ???)

Just my two cents in this fascinating thread full of interesting facts...
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you got to be kidding me... well if they were really taliban or al Qaeda, there ideology would not allow them to play video games... if they did play PES2008 i can see why they kill people, i would be angry too, hopefully radio america and the cia will drop some copies off of FIFA09 and they will stop being so angry and enjoy life... unforutnatley it looks like were gonna have a bad year in afghanistan if they get there hands on PES2009
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

winston said:
Of course, you know I agree, but alas, FIFA does this too. I've began noticing it more and more in 5v5 matches. Very unpleasant.
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Yes Winston, you're so right, I noticed sometimes that "momentum" in Fifa, specially in single player, but having MANUAL controls kind of kills the "momentum " for the most part. In FIFA you have the feeling the CPU do cheat, but at least you don't have the feeling they're messing with your controls and denying you control. And my strikers surely won't miss an empty net by no reason.

In PES, you end up feeling everything is controlled by the CPU. Hey, I understand some people may like it, but reality is this. I laughed last year when I heard about Teamvision.

I honestly can't understand how some of you guys feel "staisfying" fighting against this so-called momentum (I always talked about it as cheats, but...) when we talk about controls. How can you like that the game simply changes your decisions? How many times you end up 1 vs 1 against the keeper and, no matter where you aim, the ball goes to the keeper? Please!

I find it difficult to understand that someone would prefer to play something automatic that is not reflecting netiher his skills nor his decisions, not being in real control of your actions.

I've always been critic with this (since PES 4 I was already tired of it), but I was so naive that I thought that in next-gen, Konami would finally make a fair game and you could really play for yourself, relying on cheats only for the CPU actions.

But the only thing I see is the same old scripts again and again (pes 2008 has the same exact "momentum" as previous installments, and I've played it a lot), the same "momentum" that produces more goals in the end of each half and makes your striker fail an empty net sitter again and again or a simply 5 meters pass that goes straight to the CPU 5 meters away, making you wonder why.

I remember playing against mates in PES 5-6 and having lots of chances missed because of "momentum", regardless of my decisions. Maybe 5 of them were sitters that went away for some inch or baloooning over the bar in a comical way.

As control-wise I can only decide right, center or left it's clearly the CPU who made my striker fail miserably with NO REASON. That's been in the game for always. On the other side, my mate could shot from 30 meters in the last minute and score. Why? Momentum. Oh, yes, momentum.

If that's the details Seabass likes to reproduce in games, I can give him some ideas about other details: animations, manual controls, physics, licenses...

Of course all sports games need to rely on cheats for the AI by now, but practically all of them do it in a fair way, NOT MESSING your controls. Even in games like NBA 2K) you can adjust the CLUTCH FACTOR slider to adapt it.

The seabass ridiculous talk really admits they BEND things to produce drama.

I understand and I trully respect that people like PES in its present form. In fact, some of the people who usuarlly write here apply common sense and are respectful and I can understand most of its opinions.

But I really can't understand how they defend the automatic control system, the cheating system (denying the momentum is pure fanboyism) and end up saying they like simulation. Please.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

gerd said:
Do you guys know that PES is the favourite game of the Taliban and El Qaeda ??? I read that in the Franch PSM (or was it the English ???)

Just my two cents in this fascinating thread full of interesting facts...
Click to expand...


Also, I read somewhere that the taliban are made of about 70% water. I almost threw up when I read that, I had water as recently as earlier today. I feel violated... :(
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

dcherry said:
Yea, I think that is just a matter of preference and a justified reason not to like the game. I, for one, love the challenge that the "momentum system" delivers. I love to feel that I have to defeat some kind of higher power just to survive the game. It's a great feeling when you beat the computer after every one of your passes go awry and every break goes their way. But I agree with the article...these type of momentum shifts happen in real football as well. Weathering the storm is a great feeling, at least to me. And while it can be amazingly frustrating when you lose, it can be amazingly satifying to win. That has always been one of then charms of PES, and maybe a reason that it isn't the game for you.
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Disagree totally. I used to love winning eleven but got sick and tired of the scripting and cpu cheating. I hoped once it went to next gen this would decrease and stop but nothing has happened and its still the same cheating whenever the cpu decided its time for you to lose. Nothing is more frustrating than to see you players start to stop running and passes going astray which u have no control over.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

I felt in the past that the comp was cheating and its only now that i know about the momentum thing that i understand what has been happening.

I dont really care. It actually makes the games more interesting cos when your 4-0 up in the 80th min you need the comp to have a little surge just to spice things up and make it matter that you hold on.

Its not cheating atall because if your good enough then you can hold out and not conceed.

1 season i only let 8 goals in on Top player so obviosly i was good enough to of held back their surges.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

drekkard said:
The interview where Seabass admits the artificla momentum and shift in the game, is the moment where this game goes to sh**t. I want to win or lose by my actions, not because the cpu thinks now I won't score.

That's the big problem of PES, being everytime more and more script-oriented. No manual passing, no manual shooting, no manual nothing, but hey, the CPU can also decide when you will play good or bad.

To me, that's unacceptable as a player.
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The weird thing is that KONAMI has systems, "legitimate" ones, for influencing player behavior. For example the "Mentality" stat is supposed to boost a players stats when loosing if he has a strong Mentality stat. Similarly his stats would weaken if he was loosing and had a poor Mentality stat.

Sadly this aspect seems to be shallow or negligible. No one I've come into contact with has ever made a substitution with regard to how the player's mentality stat reads. Neihter have I. :)

If they emphasized things like that, then you'd actually benefit from subbing in for example 2 players with good mentality when trailing by a goal. That in turn could be programmed to boost the remaining 9 player's morale and stats slightly, since they now have 2 fighters on the pitch.
That would be a legitimate way to cause changes and unpredictibility in player performances.


Also, my main gripe with the current "momentum"/cheating scripts isn't tha they exist, but because stats like Response and Top Speed/Acceleration are also influenced. I mean, sure, maybe a player like Kaka in Milan looses a bit of adrenaline when his morale drops due to his team loosing, but he doesn't suddenly turn to a CB in terms of Response/Top Speed/Acceleration stats.
Psychological stats, like Pass Acc, Long Pass Acc, Shot acc I can live with being affected, because that is fairly realistic, loosing focus when hopelessly behind or outplayed. As long as it isn't just arbitrary changes, like your players playing like crap just because you are playing Milan away. My team leads the league with 20 points, but they turn into shivering blobs of jello when playing the Mighty Milan? Give me a break. :)
 
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Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

If they've been including it for years then they must of put it in pes 4,5,6?

If so how can you slate the game cos you al say you love those 1s
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

couldnt be bothered to read all above posts cause it's full of childish bickering.... but in psm3 the headline is THE MAGIC IS BACK......

be a legend mode, 2v2 online although they never got to try it, man u and liverpool are the licensed teams from prem, england and new wembley are in it fully licensed, edit mode is improved including importing any photo stored on your hard drive, and chants...a lot of the tricks are now on d pad... final thoughts says, it's the game they should have released last year.... a confidant update.... not got time to scan the pages might do it tomorrow morning if you guys want it
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

muzza798 said:
I felt in the past that the comp was cheating and its only now that i know about the momentum thing that i understand what has been happening.

I dont really care. It actually makes the games more interesting cos when your 4-0 up in the 80th min you need the comp to have a little surge just to spice things up and make it matter that you hold on.

Its not cheating atall because if your good enough then you can hold out and not conceed.

1 season i only let 8 goals in on Top player so obviosly i was good enough to of held back their surges.
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U have no control over the cpu getting a corner and then a player has a free header but the your keeper saves and then the cpu get another corner. Same thing then happens again and then on the 3rd corner once again the same player with another free header scores. I dont know why Konami seem to think that every football match in real life has either end 2 end chances (multiplayer games) or they cant accept that many times some teams create no chances.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

muzza798 said:
If they've been including it for years then they must of put it in pes 4,5,6?

If so how can you slate the game cos you al say you love those 1s
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Because they were good at the time, despite those flaws. I occasionally get the urge to uninstall WE9 from my computer when my Allstar 20-seasons-in-the-making ML team loose to a couple of nobodies on the other team that outrun my players even though they are atleast 20 points short on the Speed stats. ;)
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Trance_Allstar said:
Because they were good at the time, despite those flaws. I occasionally get the urge to uninstall WE9 from my computer when my Allstar 20-seasons-in-the-making ML team loose to a couple of nobodies on the other team that outrun my players even though they are atleast 20 points short on the Speed stats. ;)
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Not to mention many of us thought with next gen changes would happen but Pro Evo isnt next gen at all.
 
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