PES 2009 General Discussion Etc. (STRICTLY NO FIFA TALK OR POLITICAL CHAT)

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Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

I personally dont think the simulation v's arcade game cariies much weight.

I,ve stated before that the very foundation of any game, whether it be Atari space invaders or COD4, it's got to be enjoyable.

FIFA is attempting to be a simulation, as close to real life football as possible.To look at it you would certainly agree that it looks that way.Super smooth animation and a broadcsat style presentation gives it that sense of watching something on Sky.

PES does look a bit retro in comparison and I think its clear that EA's millions attract the best artists which are really starting to deliver looking at the recent screens and vids.

However, by simulating, the line between fun and frustration is teetering on the edge IMO.FIFA lacks those amazing moments I had in other games (not just PES) where you feel connected to the experience.I played 08 and Euro alot and they just both lack the balance I am talking about.Make it realistic but keep it finely tuned so its very enjoyable.

Taking away the response pulls you away from that connected feeling because the action is performed at a rate dictated by the CPU, not your split second decision, so IMO you literally have to let PES die to fall in love with FIFA because going from the responsive pick up and play PES to the highly realistic unresponsive FIFA is an example of two very, very different games catering for different markets.

They are pulling in different directions and the sooner thats accepted then the less arguments we have.

I dont know which one I am buying this year because they both look good.If FIFA nails the response (reports suggest otherwise)I'll buy that, If PES is a new experience and just as responsive I'll go for that, but I think people will struggle to get on with both.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Although there was a humouristic intention in my last post, I still was somewhat serious. I like to react on the two serious posters of the three: Rob and Placebo. I see Rob and Placebo as persons who did not post anything positive about PES for a long time. At the moment all good news came through ( bullet-list, konami-statement ) I cannot remember any reaction of those two. That was a bit disappointing. If you are in the front row with your ( sometimes fair ) critics, then be a good sport and congratulate Konami if they do well.
If not, you make people believe that you are only here to bitch over the game...
I hope I am wrong and that you like to play PES 2009 a lot in the upcoming year :)
 
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Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Lets all hope it is as good as it sounds like. This is all on paper still.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Yes, true, but Konami would make a huge blunder if they make an official announcement with misleading info. That is the last thing they can do with the increased competition. Then they hand their supporters on a silver plate to EA. That's why I believe the content of that official info.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Both Konami and EA are partial to the odd mistruth. 'Teamvision' and '1000 decisions per second' anyone?
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Well said Dr Force. I have said a 100 times before that it all comes down to personal preference. Both games have their advantages and disadvantages.

However, I understand Han's frustration though. It's one thing to be dismayed with Konami because of a poor or below par standard of games in PES6 on XBOX360 and PES2008 on PS3 and XBOX360. But to make your mind up that PES2009 will be a failure and put emphasis on whats poor about the news is a little selfish. There is no reason to piss on someone elses parade because you are not happy.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

I don't think we have much to worry about with regards to PES being a good game.The early indications have not been hyped up by sites or indeed Konami over the past few months.We have all learnt that the proof is in the pudding.

I like the early screens and the improved graphics and lighting.The edit mode is going to be comprehensive for the first time on the new consoles and the gameplay can only have gone one way.

Couple this with the ability to import sound into the game (music and sound effects)no framerate issues and (surely) a better online experience and you have your old love back but better than its ever been before IMO.

Oh and I forgot the become a legend feature which should be very interesting.

I am more excited for PES this year than I am for FIFA (although it looks fantastic) purely because Konami had to make major strides FIFA seems similar to EURO.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

zeemeister said:
Well said Dr Force. I have said a 100 times before that it all comes down to personal preference. Both games have their advantages and disadvantages.

However, I understand Han's frustration though. It's one thing to be dismayed with Konami because of a poor or below par standard of games in PES6 on XBOX360 and PES2008 on PS3 and XBOX360. But to make your mind up that PES2009 will be a failure and put emphasis on whats poor about the news is a little selfish. There is no reason to piss on someone elses parade because you are not happy.
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Good post Zee

Thats why I get frustrated at people posting stuff that is not relevant and an attempt to spoil the enjoyment of expectation.

I am not naive enough to not manage that expectation but i do like sharing the enthusiasm with like minded people without it becoming a childish squabble.

Placebo et al love FIFA its what they want and they enjoy it, fair play to them and I hope its even more enjoyable for them again this year. I don't think the issue is with them so much as they seem to be posting what they beleive to be true, which is the basis for open forum.

What I cannot stand is the attempt to take the piss out of the game and therefore the people that actually like it.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

if evo can get the edit mode simular to what could be done in pes6 ps2 version then they are halfway there, because hopefully they have fixed the gameplay issues that plagued pes2008

hopefully it's all good
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

I think people get annoyed that others dont share the same expectation levels as themselves. Then they react by calling others pes haters. Despite them not posting a great deal of positivity towards PES in this thread its not a massive issue. They've stated their concerns and giving reasoning.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Hi All,

Is there a released list of licensed clubs and teams for the new PES2009???


I read in one of the Arabic site saying that they have added (Egypt , Senegal, China , Uzbakistan , New zeland , Hundoras) and new teams and licensed both Saudi Arabia puma and Egypt puma kits.( is this is true???)


Thank you & Regards,


B2Y
 
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Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Punzz said:
I think people get annoyed that others dont share the same expectation levels as themselves. Then they react by calling others pes haters. Despite them not posting a great deal of positivity towards PES in this thread its not a massive issue. They've stated their concerns and giving reasoning.
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Partly true, but not entirely. People may find from a game what they want, but there must always be reasoning. A game might be bad, but you always can find some good parts in it. What I miss is balancing in posts. I can find FIFA 08/Euro2008 great games, but I prefer PES. In some cases ( like the posts from Terry_butcher ) there is a massive contra-PES posting. No balance at all. It's all against PES for the sake of bitching. That type of post annoys me.
I am not annoyed if some guy says something against my favorite game, as long as there is well funded reasoning.
So they don't need to share my level of expectation of the game.
 
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Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

b2y2006 said:
Hi All,

Is there a released list of licensed clubs and teams for the new PES2009???


I read in one of the Arabic site saying that they have added (Egypt , Senegal, China , Uzbakistan , New zeland , Hundoras) and new teams and licensed both Saudi Arabia puma and Egypt puma kits.( is this is true???)


Thank you & Regards,


B2Y
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Not yet.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Han said:
Partly true, but not entirely. People may find from a game what they want, but there must always be reasoning. A game might be bad, but you always can find some good parts in it. What I miss is balancing in posts. I can find FIFA 08/Euro2008 great games, but I prefer PES. In some cases ( like the posts from Terry_butcher ) there is a massive contra-PES posting. No balance at all. It's all against PES for the sake of bitching. That type of post annoys me.
I am not annoyed if some guy says something against my favorite game, as long as there is well funded reasoning.
So they don't need to share my level of expectation of the game.
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Lets not include Butcher :D
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Placebo said:
I disagree, I think that when people try to insist that PES is not an arcade game it's because they misunderstood the intent of arcade/simulation and think that their beloved is being insulted. Arcade and simulation are simply two different types within any genre, it doesn't mean any one is better than any other. If a shooter has infinite ammo, no bullet drop, no bullet penetration, minimum 5 shots to kill, no instant head shot death, it's an arcade shooter, doesn't mean it's a bad game, is Battlefield Bad Company a bad game because it's an arcade shooter? Certainly not, it's a really fun game, that's what PES is, a really fun, simple pick up and play arcade game with your mates. Yes it has extra depth to it, subtle nuances that mean you can appreciate its qualities but at it's core is an arcade game, embrace that, love that, don't be ashamed :)
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Comparing a shoot em up to a sports game is apples and oranges. Also I'm not some shrieking finster in denial about the demise of my loved one.

For me, Pro Evo feels like a simulation because I'm thinking as if I'm playing an actual football match, I'm not thinking about how I can exploit the AI (even though I know I can) I'm thinking about opening op space, slotting in a through ball and whether or not to pass it round or blast it through the keeper. If the game was ridden with gimmicks then yeah, I'd agree with you, but for as long as it rewards a footballing brain, I shall be appeased.

If this is going to be a discussion about gaming philosophies then I'll just leave it at this as the dorkyness will give me an aneurysm.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Badgerman said:
But yeah, making the game more manual has been what Konami have been aiming for for a while. I remember last year reading that they tried to implement 360 degree movement, but there were issues so it was dropped.
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Yes this is true. They were having difficulty implementing the 360 degree motion control due to the fact its still running on a game engine designed for a maximum of 8-way movement. They would have to work from the ground up changing the animations and physics etc.

If PES 2010 does indeed bring a fully realised next-gen game engine as many PES sites and insiders are suggesting, it will most likely incorporate 360 degree movement and hopefully full manual passing/shooting/crossing.

Also Seabass himself said last year that they are reworking the game from scratch and nearly all gameplay areas will be dramatically changed. He said it might not be this year (PES 2009) but definetley the next (PES 2010). Lets hope its true.

:)
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

About the arcade vs simulation.

Placebo, its funny you will say that Battlefield is an arcade shooter, I think its more simulation. It simulates real destruction, destructible environments and such, thats realistic? Also you can get one shot kill for headshots :D Halo 3 is more arcade than BF but even that isn't totally arcade as you say, it can be made to have unlimited ammo, loads of life, yet also can have low life. Cant see how you can claim because of certain aspects of a game its an arcade or what not.

Same with PES you can say its arcade but its simulation, what if its both? Your basically taking all the arcade bits, pointing them out and calling it arcade, surely the same could be done with Fifa, would that mean fifa is arcade when you leave it on automatic passing shooting and crap? Is it arcade because the keepers save everything cept from the same goals? Like the old arcade footy games were like?
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Han said:
At the moment all good news came through ( bullet-list, konami-statement ) I cannot remember any reaction of those two. That was a bit disappointing. If you are in the front row with your ( sometimes fair ) critics, then be a good sport and congratulate Konami if they do well.
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I posted a follow up post to the bullet-list, you must have missed it :)

And TBH it would be a bit stupid to congratulate Konami just yet, what've we seen? A trailer that's debatably half ingame-half rendered bullshot, and we've seen a statement and bullet-list that is meaningless until proven, remember a certain statement last year about PES2008 being the greatest football game of all time, and look how badly that one turned out! You're only as good as your last game PES2008 was poor, Euro2008 was unplayable in single player, I'm not congratulating EA or Konami just yet.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Seraphs21 said:
About the arcade vs simulation.

Placebo, its funny you will say that Battlefield is an arcade shooter, I think its more simulation. It simulates real destruction, destructible environments and such, thats realistic? Also you can get one shot kill for headshots
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I'm sorry but working for a company that makes a military simulation game I have a strong belief of what is a simulation shooter and what is arcade ;)

BFBC is an arcade shooter, emplacement weapons/gun turrets have infinite ammo, there's no bullet drop in game, your "friends" can never ever die, when you die you respawn instantly a little behind the action, you have an injector so can constantly refill your health. Recoil and bullet dispersion is also not accurate, neither is bullet damage or firing rates from the various guns. That all constitutes arcade shooter in my book, yes you get one headshot kills but that's the only plus point on simulation, the rest is arcade, good arcade fun :)

Seraphs21 said:
would that mean fifa is arcade when you leave it on automatic passing shooting and crap?
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Yes of course, when you play on automatic passing/player switching and all that you're playing it in an arcade way, the fact that you actually have the choice is what to my mind makes it simulation. Look at flight sims, they generally offer automated everything, but it's having that choice of going all manual if you wish what constitutes sim.

Seraphs21 said:
Is it arcade because the keepers save everything cept from the same goals? Like the old arcade footy games were like?
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I would disagree with that, having playing 13,000 minutes of Fifa08 singleplayer I've seen just about every type of goal imaginable, all football games have their sweetspots where one area is easier to score in than another but it doesn't mean it's impossible to score in other ways :)
 
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Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Im a life long ISS and PES fan and have to admit that PES 2008 was utter rubbish..but how on earth you can say Euro 2008 was unplayable in single player is beyond me..Euro 2008 is by far the best all round football game ive played and FIFA 09 will no doubt be a big improvement..FIFA is now up there with PES on gameplay but has all the bells and whistles to go with it..Unless Konami come up with something spectacular this year then the series could be fooked...time will tell i suppose but on things for sure FIFA is going to be good
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Placebo said:
I posted a follow up post to the bullet-list, you must have missed it :)

And TBH it would be a bit stupid to congratulate Konami just yet, what've we seen? A trailer that's debatably half ingame-half rendered bullshot, and we've seen a statement and bullet-list that is meaningless until proven, remember a certain statement last year about PES2008 being the greatest football game of all time, and look how badly that one turned out! You're only as good as your last game PES2008 was poor, Euro2008 was unplayable in single player, I'm not congratulating EA or Konami just yet.
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Nice post Placebo
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Placebo said:
I posted a follow up post to the bullet-list, you must have missed it :)

And TBH it would be a bit stupid to congratulate Konami just yet, what've we seen? A trailer that's debatably half ingame-half rendered bullshot, and we've seen a statement and bullet-list that is meaningless until proven, remember a certain statement last year about PES2008 being the greatest football game of all time, and look how badly that one turned out! You're only as good as your last game PES2008 was poor, Euro2008 was unplayable in single player, I'm not congratulating EA or Konami just yet.
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If we go look in the past then Konami did pretty well until PES 5. That was the last great game. After that - I must admit - they kind of fall asleep. EA improved hugely, making that the pressure is on Konami.
Suddenly!
After all those good games! Not to mention the trash FIFA produced until FIFA 08. How unfair can it be! EA produced 1 and a halve good game ( FIFA 08 and Euro 2008 ), while Konami made about 20 ( including the WE series ).
These figures tels us about the history of Konami and I am sure Konami don't want to give up after two below-par games. Especially now their unpatient fanbase is considering the step towards FIFA.

Like I said above....
Han said:
Yes, true, but Konami would make a huge blunder if they make an official announcement with misleading info. That is the last thing they can do with the increased competition. Then they hand their supporters on a silver plate to EA. That's why I believe the content of that official info.
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.... I believe that there is a well-founded reason that the info from this week is genuine. So what we have seen is how PES 2009 certainly will be! This is not just a shout in the dark ( ;) ) like the one you said about last year. This is their own wake-up call, which also should wake us all with the message that Konami is on the right track again :)
 
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Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

I would consider something like mario strikers as an arcade football game or adidas power soccer. I always considered arcade games as games where you can do things that are unrealistic like unstoppable power shots. Other examples would be NBA Jam and NBA Live and Mario Kart and Forza 2.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Han said:
If we go look in the past then Konami did pretty well until PES 5. That was the last great game. After that - I must admit - they kind of fall asleep. EA improved hugely, making that the pressure is on Konami. Suddenly!
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Sorry but for those of us diehard singeplayer gamers Konami fell asleep long before that, PES3 was about the last one with any significant efforts in ML, it's been essentially the same ever since, it took them up to WE10? to actually show any effort and imagination in singleplayer and bring us Fantasia mode, how much time between PES3 and WE10?

Yes I know the vast majority of people here only play multiplayer so for them PES has continued to advance, but personally I've only played about 40 games against a human opponent in all my years playing ISS/PES, so for me as a singleplayer gamer the history of PES is a series that stagnated from PES3 onwards and each version was just little tweaks and touches since then.
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

rivaldinho said:
I would consider something like mario strikers as an arcade football game or adidas power soccer. I always considered arcade games as games where you can do things that are unrealistic like unstoppable power shots. Other examples would be NBA Jam and NBA Live and Mario Kart and Forza 2.
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Yes you're right if we're going to take it to extreme levels of labelling then of course, they are out and out arcade games, as is Fifa street and as were every Fifa ever up until Fifa08.

Maybe I'm wrong to simplify it to say "PES is arcade", "Fifa is simulation", but it would get a bit tedious to say "PES is a game that has both arcade elements and simulation elements but IMO its past iterations have leaned more towards the arcade than the simulation", I really have to say that mouthful every time I try to express a point without risk of upsetting the most sensitive? ;)
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Placebo said:
Sorry but for those of us diehard singeplayer gamers Konami fell asleep long before that, PES3 was about the last one with any significant efforts in ML, it's been essentially the same ever since, it took them up to WE10? to actually show any effort and imagination in singleplayer and bring us Fantasia mode, how much time between PES3 and WE10?

Yes I know the vast majority of people here only play multiplayer so for them PES has continued to advance, but personally I've only played about 40 games against a human opponent in all my years playing ISS/PES, so for me as a singleplayer gamer the history of PES is a series that stagnated from PES3 onwards and each version was just little tweaks and touches since then.
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Nah... I do not agree that PES 3 was the last good one. PES 5 belongs to the best of all. I can see your point though, as I am mainly a singleplayer as well ( even though I organize On-line-tournaments on a Dutch forum )!
That's why the AI should be very good, like it was in PES 5. I know, the Master League did not change too much but that doesn't stop me from playing it a lot.
You as single-player should be delighted with the announced Legend-career mode.
Aren't you? :)
 
Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Find my comment and you'll see how delighted I am ;)

Edit: Ok so I wasn't exactly gushing on looking back at my post, but I did say "BAL sounds great" so there ;)

Edit2: About AI, the problem was I could win everything on 6* on PES2, PES3, PES4, PES5 so no matter how good the AI was it wasn't good enough (admittedly one or more of those didn't have 6* but whatever the max was you get the point), and I didn't even play with a team full of star players, I set myself rules to make the game harder like only signing players on free transfers, only signing players under a certain age and developing them, I do that now with Fifa as well to make it more interesting :)
 
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