Re: PES 2009 News Discussion & Rumours (STRICTLY NO FIFA DEMO IMPRESSIONS)
[EDIT] A first for me. :lol:
The text that you have entered is too long (22299 characters). Please shorten it to 15000 characters long.
I should get a life.
PART I
Hi all.
I apologize for the delay, I'll try to answer most of what came up as a reaction to my post.
This is a Megathon of a post. I reply to sindii, SaintScott, Nick Cave, Punzz, reddevils, Placebo, Putuco Malo, airjoca, DrForce, kobashi and I don't know who else :lol:
I'm terribly sorry for the huge post - you might want to consider skipping it if you're not in the mood.
sindii said:
My problems is simple features taken out and stuff like not adding in more tournament modes and maybe the old scneario mode. Even i can program those type of things and they would only take a few hours to code for the guys at konami.
If it's even as good as pes5 i will honestly be ok as it's progress for the nexgen, hopefully they will build from there.
You are right, and I am not trying to excuse them in any way. This morning, for instance, I was actually missing the challenge training mode - which I don't think will be making an appearance in PES2009. I too miss some of the modes that once made an appearance in PES. The old "scenario" mode was from ISS, actually - a game from KCEO, not KCET
I do wonder why haven't they eve implemented such a mode in PES... Oh well...
SaintScott said:
That's interesting actually, because when I read the original statement about "the PES2009 modes being complete" I read it as them already having starting development on a NEW build for PES2009, rather than that the old modes were already determined and that they'd come too far to change anything for October 2008 even in September 2007. With hindsight I can see your interpretation is right, but it was certainly implied strongly enough by the writer that the change would be seen this year, even though reading those comments now it's vague enough not to be.
That they couldn't change gear over a year away from the PES2009 release is either an indication of a bloated organisation (which implies too many staff, which I don't think is true from other things I've heard) or a problem with managing the implementation of new developments.
It might also explain why so little seems to have changed this year - if some resources are now working on a new engine instead. But this is all speculation dependent on what happens NEXT year, and I had enough of that last year !
Yes, hindsight is always 20/20 - my case included
At the time I did actually consider that they were beginning to develop something from the ground up, hopefully for this year's game. To be truthful, the fact that the game modes are almost finished doesn't necessary relate to the game engine being rewritten from scratch or not. One year ago, I was as convinced as anyone else that this year might have been the overhaul
SaintScott said:
I don't think it's a contradiction that some want progress and others like PES5 gameplay. Pretty much everyone agrees they want something that plays like PES5 (I prefer WE10) but looks like Next Gen and has next gen features. Equally there are so many instances of what MANY fans want, and features that were implemented and then removed [did I just step up there?
], which WERE simple to implement and that people liked, that it IS reasonable to doubt Konami's commitment to addressing fan feedback and opinion.
You are right, there are features that don't get implemented, and that many fans want. I won't argue that. As I mentioned, I believe that the features were not taken out on purpose, but simply haven't yet been developed in the next-gen game, just that. Still, I can't quite fault them for doing a mix of old features coming back and new features altogether.
Let's consider these past 12 months context:
- The online for PES2008 was pretty bad, while PES6 on the PS2 was thoroughly enjoyable. Furthermore, FIFA had "Be a Pro" online matches - somthing that, if someone here recalls ond Seabass interviews, had always,
always been his vision all along.
Here's a quote from a 2005 interview of Seabass:
Is the online dream still 11 vs 11 players?
Seabass: Our goal hasn't changed - we could probably do it for the next PES, but it's very difficult, as we'd have to change the system completely in order to do it. So we'll probably bring you 5 vs 5 online, and have a kind of halfway version. If we actually gave you the chance to play 11 vs 11, we'd definitely see a lot of that human error!
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=131583
and a 2004 interview
Seabass: "We always say that one of our final goals is to have 11 versus 11, but the team doesn't believe we can do this on PSP before doing it on a [home] console. Technically we could do it, connecting on the PSP LAN, however it will probably not give you that satisfying PES feeling if we try to do that on the PSP platform."
Sadly, this interview has gone offline now. You can read it here:
http://www.pesforum.de/pes-3-forum/35122-pes-interview-mit-mr-seabass-takatsuka.html
and a reference to it here:
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=56992
By the way, Seabass was already talking about this years before, I just can't find the interviews on the internet, and I don't know if I still have my old magazines. Nonetheless, by the tone of his words, you can deprehend that the intervewers are already aware of his wish to do 11 vs 11 online from years before.
He had a memorable interview where he also commented that he appreciated the effort Namco had done with LiberoGrande.
Back on topic, the point is, he did want to improve the online bit - 2 vs 2 at least - and also prevent FIFA from stealing his show completely with their online Be a Pro. Thus appeared Legends and Become a Legend.
- The Edit mode needed to be improved.
They tried to bring it back to old standards.
- Licenses. They tried to get the Champions League license.
Loads of assets had to be done for it to work correctly. It's sort of a "new" competition in the game.
- Stadiums. People complained that they weren't detailed.
In Seabass's interview, he states something about stadium improvement, that he can finally tick it off the list.
- People complained for ages about never knowing why players in the Master League would refuse millionaire contracts. Also, the fact that once you had 40 world class players, the Master League would become pointless and not a challenge at all.
They added the negotiation factors, as well as the players now liking or disliking the club and the fact that they play regularly or sit on the bench frequently affects their morale is a slight improvement.
We can easily question Konami's commitment to user feedback, but I feel it is slightly unfair. They can't answer all the feedback all at once. They choose a couple of topics, address them, and also address a couple of new things.
SaintScott said:
I think a lot of the issue with fan feedback isn't so much taking ideas on board, it's a lack of transparency for decision-making - people WANT to know why shirts can't be set untucked in edit mode when they could in PES5. They want to know whose idea the thudding ball and grey goalposts were. The company works in software, you'd think they'd be a little more media savvy than just having maximum secrecy and very poorly co-ordinated PR leaks. I hate to use EA as a model for this kind of thing after their 10 years of crappy versions, but they've got back in the game (sorry!) by using fans as focus groups and testing on their customers (and before release, unlike the PES2008 online Beta I paid £40 for last year).
I'm all up for transparency here. Nonetheless, culturally, they are a Japanese company. Now, let me tell you a couple of things: I will easily vouch that Konami also conducts fans, focus groups, and receives their suggestions to some degree. FIFA is produced by a canadian company. Their playground has always been Europe. It's pretty legitimate that they'll invite the guys from FSB for a weekend there and get them to play the game, as well as earn that free awareness that the guys will generate through the blog.
True enough, Konami is a bit more closed about it, but make no mistake: they might not be so open about it, but they also have their own feedback loops of sort, both with japanese and europeans. If I am not thoroughly mistaken, a well-known member of EvoWeb, who currently is involved in beta-testing the game and has been doing so for the past 2 years or so, I am pretty sure that he might have some word or the other on what Seabass is doing wrong and right, and they improve over it.
Also, even though most of you will frown upon this reference of mine, I have heard from secure sources that there were PES2008 betas that were a lot better than the final game, in what concerns game speed and features, if I'm not mistaken. Many good people were crucified for having told us that as leaks - ThomasGoal being one of them.
Punzz said:
Then they go back to PES5 because it's a fan favourite, but still they hate you and all the fans' feedback."
I'm sorry but when have the Konami developers ever come out and said 'this year the game plays like PES5 because we all know you loved that game'
They simply changed the pace of the game because last year was ridiculous. The PES5 statement came along because one of the Konami EU staff mentioned to suffwan or someone from WENB that the games pace is similar to PES5.
As for this so called patent talk, it doesn't fly with me.
You're right though, they don't owe us anything. In saying that though, if they want to better their game then I'm sure reading through european gamers opinions could give them a different spin on everything.
Another thing. I read they've limited the import chant option to 1 chant per team, does that still stand? I won't be too happy if thats still the case
I'm sorry, but even I haven't heard anything from Konami developers saying anything at all, nor have I seen any of them. Nonetheless, the statement in PEsS2009's MySpace FAQ is the following:
Q: Has the game speed been slowed down this year? Last year's speed was in all honesty, atrocious. If it is the same, or even close this time around, I don't see myself playing the game.
A: Yes it has – this was one of the most requested bits of feedback we got from last year's title and this one has been compared to the speed of PES 5, which seems to be the version preferred by a lot of PES fans.
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=259239164&blogID=421954722
I'm pretty sure you can read them they way you want: either that, by chance, the speed is similar to PES5's, or that the speed is similar to PES5 because it seems to be the version preferred by a lot of PES fans. I really don't know how they would've come up with this without paying attention to fans opinions.
Nontheless, about the patent talk, if it doesn't fly with you, let me try a different approach - take it from someone also in the software business.
There are legitimate communication channels for everything. They are completely entitled to - mostly for their safety, also - not to take feedback from the Contact Us form in their site. When they want feedback from users, for whatever purpose it is - product management, beta testing, user groups, feedback sessions - they have them sign NDAs, and sure enough, do whatever they want to do then. It is as hard to prove that they don't take feedback from fans as it is the other way around.
I will not try to defend nor criticize Konami's position on it. However, I wouldn't say that they don't take any feedback from the users. I believe that your statement that says "I'm sure reading through european gamers opinions could give them a different spin on everything" is a bit extremist, and over-generalizing. The fact that a vocal minority expresses its discontent with the game doesn't mean that another vocal minority actually likes the game for what it is - which doesn't mean that it doesn't recognize that the game needs to improve - and, above all, doesn't change the fact that a vocal majority still buys the game in a way that this is Konami's biggest cash-cow.
Do not risk thinking that the fact that there are 20 or 30 people here who argue that the game is worthless, and 10 or 20 of us who try to take it for what it is make the whole market for Konami's game.
Furthermore, as someone earlier put in much wiser and better words than I could ever had, since the game gets so many good reviews here in Europe, have you ever stopped to think that maybe you are wrong and the game is, in fact, a good game - which, once again,
does not imply by any means that the game is perfect or could not be improved in any way.
Seriously.
END OF PART I
