PES 2009 General Discussion Etc. (STRICTLY NO FIFA TALK OR POLITICAL CHAT)

[Nick Cave]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Fifa to me always seems like a regimented exercise that doesn't really have any soul in it. I remember playing my brother a year or so back and we didn't even care who won, it was just something that was happening.

Pro Evo invokes actual football emotions whilst Fifa is just a game to me.

Used to feel that way too until 2008, then because me and my mate had to switch to FIFA or go back to PS2, due to the judder issue on my PS3. So after a period of re wiring to the FIFA game play and learning to live with the niggles, we are finding some good build up and crafting can lead to genuine great footballing moments.
I know the correction of glitches and tweaks along with some additions are needed to bring it up to the halcyon days of WE... But I just get the feeling the EA team are moving in a better direction than Konami and SB...
I still hope to come back to my old love affair of PES and WE...

 

[jeblo05]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

...Fifa to me always seems like a regimented exercise that doesn't really have any soul in it. I remember playing my brother a year or so back and we didn't even care who won, it was just something that was happening.

Pro Evo invokes actual football emotions whilst Fifa is just a game to me...

soul, emotion <--> just a computer game

this have been exactly me feelings put into the right words. Unfortunately I couldn't find any "soul" in PES2008(PS3/360), whereas on PS2 it's still PES as it should be.
I've enjoyed PES6/360, even if it's different to PES6/PS2, even with crippled/none existing game modes.

I've lost my love with PES2008

I'm missing my PES...

...

 

[Badgerman]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Just think of it as you've got a stunning girlfriend and she's just put on a bit of weight.

I've used this analogy before and I'm going to finish it as I did last time.

Us having girlfriends, lammo.

 

[Han]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Following the discussions on this last page I have the funny feeling that people have a different definition of "GAMEPLAY"
Sometimes people talk about animations when talking about gameplay and others ( like me )assosiate the word with playing the actual game and experiencing the way my opponent reacts. In CPU terms: The AI.
Animations are more the graphical part.
Also some confusion arise when we talk about the engine. This IMHO is similar. I believe there is a graphical engine and a gameplay engine.
The gameplay-engine has definatly changed in PES 2009 and the graphical engine has just undergo some additions in the animations.
I don't think things like the stadium belongs to any engine.

 

[Rob92]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Following the discussions on this last page I have the funny feeling that people have a different definition of "GAMEPLAY"
Sometimes people talk about animations when talking about gameplay and others ( like me )assosiate the word with playing the actual game and experiencing the way my opponent reacts. In CPU terms: The AI.
Animations are more the graphical part.
Also some confusion arise when we talk about the engine. This IMHO is similar. I believe there is a graphical engine and a gameplay engine.
The gameplay-engine has definatly changed in PES 2009 and the graphical engine has just undergo some additions in the animations.
I don't think things like the stadium belongs to any engine.

But certain animations lead to certain types of ball trajectory/power, which is a gameplay issue.
For example, when you are facing 90 degrees away from goal in PES 08 and shoot, it does that silly chipped shot animation, which leads to a weak shot.
Another example would be in PES6 when you want to slot the ball past the keeper in a 1 on 1, and the player pokes it with the outside of their foot straight at the keeper.

Animations can affect the gameplay.

 

[jeblo05]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Just think of it as you've got a stunning girlfriend and she's just put on a bit of weight.

I've used this analogy before and I'm going to finish it as I did last time.

Us having girlfriends, lammo.

I'm using this analogy, too of course. But the girlfriend LOST too much weight, instead of carrying some additional kilos. I don't want to have sex with skinny, 11 year old look-a-like...
___

"gameplay" and graphic engine are bound to each other, imo. For some reason PES2008/PS3 animations/animation transitions don't feel "smooth" anymore -> gameplay doesn't feel right anymore.

 

[Trance_Allstar]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Funny, that's exactly what I liked in PES from the first version, and what I thought that set it apart from other games. I can shoot the way I want to, and the player will shoot accordingly. If you want him to turn to the goal before shooting, you just have to turn him by yourself.

The fact that, if I was facing towards my own goal, tried to shoot, and the player did not turn around by himself to do a perfect shot has been since the beginning a really nice "simulation" feature that the game has... Unless I'm not visualizing what you're talking about

But each one to its own, no hard feelings

Also, I agree with the high passes being terribly fast, but hey, I believe that it will be fixed. PES4 was super fast, PES5 was slow - not slower, slow This is all a bit trial and error. Nonetheless, I was hoping that at this day and age they would be able to patch the physics and the AI whenever they wanted.

And while we are ranting, there are two things that completely piss me off in PES:

- Not being able to rotate 360º in free kicks;
- The fact that the players' shooting strength and passing strength is unrelated... They can do a stronger cross that a shot, sometimes. Also, they can shoot this strong, but they can't make a ground pass with enough strength (even on maximum power using the manual pass) to launch a counter attack to a player on the other side of the field.

There, I said it

Best regards,

Paulo Tavares

Well, if you turn towards the goal first and then shoot, then you've done a whole moment more than you should have to. I want the player to twist and shoot in one motion, not turn and touch the ball towards the goal and then shoot. The animation makes it impossible to, from a certain position, do the best possible move.

They should obviously animate the players to be as good as they can be in all situations. Also, it was perfect in PES5, so why remove it and replace it with a crippled animation?

 

[Han]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

But certain animations lead to certain types of ball trajectory/power, which is a gameplay issue.
For example, when you are facing 90 degrees away from goal in PES 08 and shoot, it does that silly chipped shot animation, which leads to a weak shot.
Another example would be in PES6 when you want to slot the ball past the keeper in a 1 on 1, and the player pokes it with the outside of their foot straight at the keeper.

Animations can affect the gameplay.

IMHO it's just the other way around
Evrything the gameplay- engine does will be redirected to the graphical engine.
Even with the nicest animations on earth this problem you describe will be performed the wrong way. Your problem has it's origin in a weak point in the gameplay-engine. But yes, I agree, animations and gameplay are linked, but for me your last sentence in the quote above should be "The gameplay affect the animations"

 

[Lami]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Just checked the WENB website and they haven't put the german magazine news up. Wonder why that is. I can understand scans being a big no-no but the information itself?

They can't confirm because they haven't play tested it yet.

 

[pjft]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

@Lami: I obviously am not seeing what the crippled shot is, since so many of you have talked about it - and if you say that PES5 got it right, then obviously I'm not talking about the same

@Rob92: Han got there early, but yes, it is the other way around. He explained what I wanted to say. Basically, the fact that the ball goes straight at the keeper or somewhere else is not a result of the animation - though the fact that you believe so means that it is well animated

The trajectory is decided by the gameplay. As far as the game goes, the player could even stand still while the ball moves from one place to another

 

[Trance_Allstar]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

IMHO it's just the other way around
Evrything the gameplay- engine does will be redirected to the graphical engine.
Even with the nicest animations on earth this problem you describe will be performed the wrong way. Your problem has it's origin in a weak point in the gameplay-engine. But yes, I agree, animations and gameplay are linked, but for me your last sentence in the quote above should be "The gameplay affect the animations"

Animations are gameplay. If an animation takes longer than it should in real life, then the animation needs to be adjusted to improve gameplay. The animation ruins the realism.

If an animation is performed alot faster than is humanly possible, like a goalkeeper skipping sideways across the line during a freekick, then the animation needs to be changed to improve gameplay.

Gameplay is just a word for "how the game plays". What is important for that is player models (proportions are important to properly simulate how humans move), the way the player models move (if their feet slide on the grass they might possibly be able to do things real humans can't do, like certain dribbles where a real human couldn't move like the game players do and would fall over), how they interact with the ball (animations matching ball hit powers, ball hits having realistic trajectories, curl patterns etc), how they interact with eachother (jostleing, collisions etc). Also how the ball interacts with its environment (bouncing off the ground, sliding along wet grass, hitting posts and bars, etc).

Strip away all the sounds and all the textures, and only leave the field, goals, players and the ball, and you have all the elements for the basic gameplay.

 

[Lami]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

@Lami: I obviously am not seeing what the crippled shot is, since so many of you have talked about it - and if you say that PES5 got it right, then obviously I'm not talking about the same

What crippled shot?

 

[Trance_Allstar]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

What crippled shot?

Run along the penalty line or a bit closer to goal.

The goal should be on the opposite side of your players strong foot.

Then take a shot. The player will sometimes perform a broadside type animation for the shot, which is more like a chip than anything. Basically he keeps his body oriented with his side turned to goal, and he pulls back his leg slightly, and then hits the ball with the side of his boot. A characteristic of this animation is that he doesn't follow through the pendulum movement, but his boot stops almost immediately after he hits the ball.


I have uninstalled PES2008 since long, so I can't make a video.

 

[pjft]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Ooooh, my bad, my bad.

I mistook Lami and Trance because of your avatars. :|

Sorry to both of you.

The crippled shot discussion was with Trance_Allstar all along.

 

[Rob92]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

What I mean is, on PES 08, you want to smash the ball at goal with a lot of power from a 90 degree angle, but the animation is for a silly chipped shot, the power/trajectory of the ball has to match that animation for it to look realistic. If an animation for a powerful shot was used, then the power/trajectory would have to match that, which would be a gameplay change.

And with the PES6 outside of the foot pokes, if they did the inside of the foot shot animation, it would probably be a much more effective shot.

So depending on which animation is used, or how the animation looks, how the ball reacts has to match this, which changes the gameplay...

 

[Trance_Allstar]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

What I mean is, on PES 08, you want to smash the ball at goal with a lot of power from a 90 degree angle, but the animation is for a silly chipped shot, the power/trajectory of the ball has to match that animation for it to look realistic. If an animation for a powerful shot was used, then the power/trajectory would have to match that, which would be a gameplay change.

And with the PES6 outside of the foot pokes, if they did the inside of the foot shot animation, it would probably be a much more effective shot.

So depending on which animation is used, or how the animation looks, how the ball reacts has to match this, which changes the gameplay...

The PES6 outside shot is a great example of the same scenario as the PES2008 chippy shot. It is the same kind of unnecessary shot that never was what I intended, and always made me go "no" every time it happened. Plus it was always so weak, again the player didn't put his foot through it, he just lightly touched it.
I'm so surprised that these types of things make it to the game, when they stick out like a sore thumb when you play the game.

Obviously it is even more frustrating that it happens when I don't push control shot, and instead just want to power that ball low past the goalkeeper who is coming out. It's like KONAMI don't even trust us to properly use the control shot button, so they program the game to automatically use the control shot when we are close to goal. What am I, 5? I can do 2 things at once (or in this case, first press the shot button, then press R2).

 

[Punzz]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Is this chipped shot the one where you are through on goal or at an angle and it performs a tiny chip to lob over the keeper? It only ever works when the keeper is very close to you.

The animation is in place to perform that shot but its been programmed in to certain positions and times on the pitch and then they've used a animation to reflect that action. The code shouldn't be in there in the first place irregardless of the animation it uses. If i want to perform a chip shot, i want to use the normal control method not some automatic system it tries to force upon you

 

[zeemeister]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

I am struggling to understand here. Has anyone actually tried to shoot a ball at 90degrees and smash the ball low with a pendulum style action of the foot?

I play alot of PES 2008 and usually readjust my strikers position to score a low shot past the keeper.

 

[Trance_Allstar]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

I am struggling to understand here. Has anyone actually tried to shoot a ball at 90degrees and smash the ball low with a pendulum style action of the foot?

Do you mean in real life?

 

[Rob92]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

This shows just how well that sort of shot can be struck in real life:

[youtube]ZAy7K9iHpQw[/youtube]

 

[Trance_Allstar]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

This shows just how well that sort of shot can be struck in real life:

[youtube]ZAy7K9iHpQw[/youtube]

I was looking for a good example myself, cheers.

Yeah, makes no sense to have the PES animation there when they could just do that. I prefer Sneijders shot.

If anyone with PES2008 could get a video of the shot we're talking about, that would be great. I'd do it myself but no PES2008 here atm... :/ Would be alot better with video examples.

 

[BaYern]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Speaking of animations, have you guys seen or played any 2k sports games? Their animations are the best out there, IMO. Just look at Topspin3, pure simulation. Why don't they come up with a footy game, I reckon it will be good.


:

 

[jflores]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Speaking of animations, have you seen or played any 2k sports games? IMO their animations are the best out there. Why don't they come up with a footy game, I reckon it will be good. Just look at Topspin3, pure simulation.

Agree. This guys are experts in animations. I would love for them to put together a nice futbol sim game. I bet it would be a challenge they would enjoy doing.

 

[zeemeister]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

I just had a session to see what this is about. I have bigger issues with the toe poke that goes at shoulder height passed the keeper or the sliding shot that can be executed with immense power. But I thoroughly enjoyed my match Arsenal vs Newcastle finished 2-1 to me.
Why do people hate pes2008 so much? I mean sure it has it's flaws and lack of license but it is still a great game. I mean in one highlight Owen latched onto a loose ball that he slipped passed Almunia but Clichy was on hand to slide about a meter away from the goal line. In another instance Van Persie had a shot blocked that rolled towards the middle of the field, I immediately noticed Flamini lurking in an open space about 35+meters from the goal and ran onto the loose ball to give it an almighty thump without stopping to control. The ball whizzed at a magnificent pace towards the goal but swerved a few feet wide. THIS IS FOOTBALL MAN!!

 

[Lami]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

In ML, I always wondered why is it players can develop their stats but not their special abilities? That should be implemented too.

 

[Lami]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

I just had a session to see what this is about. I have bigger issues with the toe poke that goes at shoulder height passed the keeper or the sliding shot that can be executed with immense power. But I thoroughly enjoyed my match Arsenal vs Newcastle finished 2-1 to me.
Why do people hate pes2008 so much? I mean sure it has it's flaws and lack of license but it is still a great game. I mean in one highlight Owen latched onto a loose ball that he slipped passed Almunia but Clichy was on hand to slide about a meter away from the goal line. In another instance Van Persie had a shot blocked that rolled towards the middle of the field, I immediately noticed Flamini lurking in an open space about 35+meters from the goal and ran onto the loose ball to give it an almighty thump without stopping to control. The ball whizzed at a magnificent pace towards the goal but swerved a few feet wide. THIS IS FOOTBALL MAN!!

I would've still had it if it wasn't for its extra hyperness and stifness.

 

[tobi]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

The outside the foot shot in PES5 was pretty good, yesterday I was playing Arsenal and Bergkamp scored a last minute winner that crushed me but when I watched the replay I had to give credit where it was due. He latched onto the through ball, got his feet sorted and calmly stroked the ball into the bottom corner with the outside of his foot, it brought a smile to my face.

I hope that shot is correctly done in 2009.

 

[Han]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Animations are gameplay. If an animation takes longer than it should in real life, then the animation needs to be adjusted to improve gameplay. The animation ruins the realism.

If an animation is performed alot faster than is humanly possible, like a goalkeeper skipping sideways across the line during a freekick, then the animation needs to be changed to improve gameplay.

Gameplay is just a word for "how the game plays". What is important for that is player models (proportions are important to properly simulate how humans move), the way the player models move (if their feet slide on the grass they might possibly be able to do things real humans can't do, like certain dribbles where a real human couldn't move like the game players do and would fall over), how they interact with the ball (animations matching ball hit powers, ball hits having realistic trajectories, curl patterns etc), how they interact with eachother (jostleing, collisions etc). Also how the ball interacts with its environment (bouncing off the ground, sliding along wet grass, hitting posts and bars, etc).

Strip away all the sounds and all the textures, and only leave the field, goals, players and the ball, and you have all the elements for the basic gameplay.

I wasn't at home this afternoon, so a little later to answer this:
I agree with you on the part where you say that gameplay is how the game plays. That is very close to the definition I used. After that I have some differences.
I show you with an example:
Think about the differences between, say, FIFA 99 and ISS pro evo 2: Everybody agreed that the animations and graphics of FIFA were better but that the graphically inferior ISS Pro evo 2 had far better gameplay.
See what I mean? With that in mind you can clearly see that a game has to have that invisible thing that make the game feel so much more like a football-game. The players in ISS PE2 were ugly blocked mans, compared with those of FIFA 99 but everybody who was a hardcore football-fan preferred ISSPE2!
So you don't need stunningly animated graphics as long as the play itself ( gameplay ) is the most important thing. Sure, those animations make it so much more attractive, but it's not the gameplay itself!

 

[Jamezinho]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

Speaking of animations, have you guys seen or played any 2k sports games? Their animations are the best out there, IMO. Just look at Topspin3, pure simulation. Why don't they come up with a footy game, I reckon it will be good.
:

NBA 2K8 is a work of art, so were 2K7 and 2K6. Same with NHL 2K and Topspin.

The 2K Sports team hit the ground running on the next-gen consoles with fantastic looking games that have great game play. None of this having to wait three years to develop a decent game. I really wish they would turn their attention to a soccer game, but I feel licensing issues may be a deterrent.

So you don't need stunningly animated graphics as long as the play itself ( gameplay ) is the most important thing. Sure, those animations make it so much more attractive, but it's not the gameplay itself!

My personal opinion is that with the capabilities of the 360 and PS3 would should expect games that are strong in all areas.

 

[Trance_Allstar]

Re: PES 2009 News, Discussion and Rumours

I just had a session to see what this is about. I have bigger issues with the toe poke that goes at shoulder height passed the keeper or the sliding shot that can be executed with immense power. But I thoroughly enjoyed my match Arsenal vs Newcastle finished 2-1 to me.
Why do people hate pes2008 so much? I mean sure it has it's flaws and lack of license but it is still a great game. I mean in one highlight Owen latched onto a loose ball that he slipped passed Almunia but Clichy was on hand to slide about a meter away from the goal line. In another instance Van Persie had a shot blocked that rolled towards the middle of the field, I immediately noticed Flamini lurking in an open space about 35+meters from the goal and ran onto the loose ball to give it an almighty thump without stopping to control. The ball whizzed at a magnificent pace towards the goal but swerved a few feet wide. THIS IS FOOTBALL MAN!!

You just described football in the broadest of senses. The devil is in the details.

Think about the differences between, say, FIFA 99 and ISS pro evo 2: Everybody agreed that the animations and graphics of FIFA were better but that the graphically inferior ISS Pro evo 2 had far better gameplay.

I think that is incomplete.

It's sort of like someone, commenting on playing a recent build of PES2009, saying "it's alot more fluid this year". It has absolutely no meaning. Most of us can sort of infer some meaning into the description, but does it tell us that the game is any good? The ultimate fluid football game is if the players just slide around without even moving, always moving and never standing still. Now that's fluid.

Why not just say "animations are better linked together this year, which means that you don't get apparent transitions between different actions", or something like that, if that is what you mean by "fluid".


But anyways, about your comment.

What do you mean when you say that everybody thought FIFA's animations were better? Did they have a higher resolution, so that they contained many animation frames and thus were alot more even when played in slow-motion?


Like I said, it's not just animations, it's how the players move and interact with eachother and the ball.

Take a look at this video for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3aOoafgujQ

First of all, I would dispute anyone who thinks those animations are nice. They go from stationary to moving quickly in no-time, the ball is constantly being shifted to adapt to the move the player is doing, feet are sliding like crazy. They have the "ISS" problem, in that the players can move the ball in different directions without actually touching it with the feet. When they turn they don't need to use their legs to help balance their weight as the centrifugal force should be unbalancing them. Nice animations? There's so many essential animations missing for a realistic experience it's not even funny.
Sure, they have a couple of "drag ball behind leg when turning" moves, but that doesn't qualify it as nice. Just look @1:24 in the video as the player in white is running to the right of the screen, and then turns downwards. It looks like he might aswell be running without the ball, since he doesn't hit it once when turning. It's not nice animations, because they don't work.



ISS PES2, which I've played alooot on the PS1, was far better animated than FIFA99. Players weren't sliding around, players were paced well, etc. They had the basic movements down alot more solidly than FIFA99. WHen a player turned with the ball, he would first shuffle the ball with his leg in the direction he was turning, and then would also push into the ground to push his body in the direction aswell. When players were running you could feel each foot as it was planted into the ground, in FIFA99 they just drift around, they don't bob up and down as they transfer weight from one leg to the next, and there's no sense of actually watching an actuall human, so the experience is inferior.

FIFA games also had big problems with the ball physics, ball speeds (shots were sometimes absurdly fast), ball trajectories, there were very little randomizing for accuracy and such, and if you took a shot from any angle or point you could guarantee that the ball would pass within 3 meters from a post or bar. No misshits, no realistic thinking.

In other words, the ball wasn't interacting with the players realistically, it was mechanical.


All this I mentioned as being part of the gameplay (kinetics, ball physics, ball-human interactions etc). Animations in themselves can be sweet-looking, but if the foot isn't touching the ball when you're turning, or is constantly automatically moved along the ground to be in the "correct" place for the player to be able to turn...