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Liverpool Thread

Re: Liverpool Thread

Vannizzlefashizzal said:
wow, ya reaching now...

rafa inherited a team that pretty much got to and won The Champs League...

The team SAF inherited in 86' doesnt compare...
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Rafa inherited a team that, lets face it, didnt have the level to even compete for the Champions League. He added to that team Xabi Alonso and Garcia (and some other players who then were sold with a profit) and thanks to his amazing tacticals abilities he won the Champions League. Since then he has been reshaping our squad by selling and buying players, thats the reason why we dont have good alternates, because if you have to sell first in order to buy its going to be very hard to have a big and competitive team.
In fact, supposing all our players are fit, we have one of the best 11th man of the world, and for me, the best of England.

--------------------Reina-----------------------
Johnson------Skrtel--------Agger---------Insua/Aurelio
------------------------Masche------------------
------------Aquilani----------------------------
Kuyt--------------------------------------Riera-
------------------------Gerrard-----------------
----------------Torres--------------------------

--------------------Dudek-----------------------
Finnan-------Carragher----Hyypia----------Traore
------------------ Alonso-----------------------
Garcia------------Gerrard-----------------Riise-
---------------------------Kewell---------------
------------------Baros-------------------------
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Jumbo_ said:
Yeah lets not start all this again.

Rafa's problems seem to be man-management (getting the best out of players, keeping everyone happy etc), transfers and he hasn't always done so well with the media. Obviously there are exceptions to that (Torres) but in general this is where he has struggled. You guys have got more professional players on your books than anyone else in the country, yet hardly any of them are good enough to play in the team. That's gotta say something to you!!

What Jermain Pennant said in that interview about Benitez neutering players I actually agree with. He does sound a bit bitter about his time at Liverpool but then again, I can understand why. For a good example of this, look at Ryan Babel. He was meant to be one of the hottest prospects in Europe and has shown glimpses of that for you, and regularly plays well for Holland, but when he puts on a Liverpool shirt, more often than not he looks average at best.

Maybe Rafa has a problem with sort of traditional wingers with flair, I mean I can't think of one who has played at 'Pool in his time and done well?

Babel, no. Riera, no. Gonzalez, no. Pennant, no. Kewell, no. Leto, no. El Zhar, no. Zenden, no.

Then there's the various other younger lads who have either come and gone or are still not looking any closer to getting in the first team. The only one who's done well is Benayoun and he isn't really a winger. The fact that when Torres is out, Rafa would still rather leave Kuyt on the wing than put him in his natural forward position is strange to me.

Tactically he seems to like his players very disciplined (with the exception of Gerrard now, and possibly Johnson) and maybe this ideology he holds, combined with the not so great man management is what is causing the problem. I know some managers dont like being too friendly with their players and there is nothing wrong with that if it works, but I seriously think Rafa has some issues here. If what Torres put in his book about when he announced he was having a baby is true then that's really bad (and why would he lie?).

That said, it's obvious he's a very capable manager and like you say there aren't that many available who could do better, and it would mean starting over and a serious clear out.
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These book are written to sell, and it wasnt even written by Torres, like almost every Autobiography.
 
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Re: Liverpool Thread

Liverbird said:
Rafa inherited a team that, lets face it, didnt have the level to even compete for the Champions League. He added to that team Xabi Alonso and Garcia (and some other players who then were sold with a profit) and thanks to his amazing tacticals abilities he won the Champions League.
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It wasnt a team of no hopers tho, houllier had already won the uefa cup with his team, and I think got a 2nd place finish...

he inherited a good team, which was my point, his subsequent teams havent had the same quality in depth....

and being 3-0 down at half time and going for it is hardly amazing tactical ability, surely an "amazing tactician" wouldnt have been 3-0 down in the first place..

I dont rate SAF as a tactical genius, far from it, us winning so many games from a losing position isnt dowm to tactics.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Vannizzlefashizzal said:
It wasnt a team of no hopers tho, houllier had already won the uefa cup with his team, and I think got a 2nd place finish...

he inherited a good team, which was my point, his subsequent teams havent had the same quality in depth....

and being 3-0 down at half time and going for it is hardly amazing tactical ability, surely an "amazing tactician" wouldnt have been 3-0 down in the first place..

I dont rate SAF as a tactical genius, far from it, us winning so many games from a losing position isnt dowm to tactics.
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And what about the other victories against Chelsea and Juventus ? That ones were also luck ?
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Come on Abhi, stop being so defensive, Tik could see the points I was making and that I'm not just digging at Rafa.

1) Rafa signed both Leto and El Zhar, and the fact that they've hardly featured is exactly my point! If Rafa doesn't want wingers then why does he buy them? And why does he keep buying average young players? El Zhar's played what 20-25 games and done nothing. Dont give me the 'we dont have as much money as the rest of the top 4' bollocks he keeps come out with cos it's irrelevant to this point.

2) Vincente might have said Rafa made him the best winger in Europe, but lets be honest, he didn't did he?!! He's never been world class, he had a few seasons where he was really good but nothing more and he's perennially injured.

3) IMO Babel is a much better player than Nani, but then Nani has achieved a lot more than Babel has so who's better becomes irrelevant. He's scored more goals, got more assists, played better, played more often and at the end of the day, won more. I think if Babel had've signed for Arsenal (like was touted at the time) he'd have progressed more and we'd be looking at one of the most exciting players in the league.

4) Why sign these players on as professionals (it costs more) if they are not good enough and are only considered youth players? Do better scouting before you sign them and if they're not good enough release them like everyone else does so they can make something of their career instead of rotting in your reserves.

5) I never said there was a problem with playing Kuyt on the wing in general, he usually does great there, although he's been a bit crap this season. Anyway, he's a player I really like. I said when Torres is injured, play Kuyt upfront. He's more likely than anyone other forward in your squad to get a goal so put him upfront where he's a natural.

And Liverbird, you've been brainwashed. :LOL:
Rafa inherited a team that, lets face it, didnt have the level to even compete for the Champions League.
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:CONFUSE: You mean the won he did win the Champions League with?

Like Van said, in that situation tactics don't come into it really. Without cheating Gerrard's starfish dive you might have lost 3-2!

These book are written to sell, and it wasnt even written by Torres, like almost every Autobiography.
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But it has to go through Torres before it's released. Why would he risk falling out with Rafa if it wasn't even true? It'd be stupid.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Leto hasn't played, because he didn't get the work permit. Simple as. El Zhar's injured, but he did play last season, and played his part in our come back wins last season.

Vicente was the best winger in the world, the season Valencia won the league. As soon as Rafa left, he's degraded.

Torres said as well, that it was Rafa that improved him 10x as a player, because of his work on details.

They're youth players, and don't cost much. Simple. How they come into consideration is totalll irrelevant, given that Rafa's been given of the youth team only this season.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Liverbird said:
And what about the other victories against Chelsea and Juventus ? That ones were also luck ?
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what about losing the 1st 3 group games that CL campaign?

anyhow, I didnt say it was down to luck...

I just dont see how it can be "amazing tactical ability",

and thats not anti-lfc, cos I'd say exactly the same thing to anyone who thought the same about Fergie....
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

I already said Torres was an exception.

I know about Leto's work permit problems, but that only puts it in the bracket of a shite signing IMO. These days most players if they are good enough can get through on appeal due to the amount of football they'll play and the fact they'll be more likely to get in the national team because of this. The fact Leto didnt says it all. He went on loan and still didnt do enough to get in a national team that has selected nearly 80 different players under the current manager.

If it doesn't prove Rafa doesn't really like flair wingers then it does prove that it was another poor transfer by Rafa.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Jumbo_ said:
Come on Abhi, stop being so defensive, Tik could see the points I was making and that I'm not just digging at Rafa.

1) Rafa signed both Leto and El Zhar, and the fact that they've hardly featured is exactly my point! If Rafa doesn't want wingers then why does he buy them? And why does he keep buying average young players? El Zhar's played what 20-25 games and done nothing. Dont give me the 'we dont have as much money as the rest of the top 4' bollocks he keeps come out with cos it's irrelevant to this point.

2) Vincente might have said Rafa made him the best winger in Europe, but lets be honest, he didn't did he?!! He's never been world class, he had a few seasons where he was really good but nothing more and he's perennially injured.

3) IMO Babel is a much better player than Nani, but then Nani has achieved a lot more than Babel has so who's better becomes irrelevant. He's scored more goals, got more assists, played better, played more often and at the end of the day, won more. I think if Babel had've signed for Arsenal (like was touted at the time) he'd have progressed more and we'd be looking at one of the most exciting players in the league.

4) Why sign these players on as professionals (it costs more) if they are not good enough and are only considered youth players? Do better scouting before you sign them and if they're not good enough release them like everyone else does so they can make something of their career instead of rotting in your reserves.

5) I never said there was a problem with playing Kuyt on the wing in general, he usually does great there, although he's been a bit crap this season. Anyway, he's a player I really like. I said when Torres is injured, play Kuyt upfront. He's more likely than anyone other forward in your squad to get a goal so put him upfront where he's a natural.

And Liverbird, you've been brainwashed. :LOL:


:CONFUSE: You mean the won he did win the Champions League with?

Like Van said, in that situation tactics don't come into it really. Without cheating Gerrard's starfish dive you might have lost 3-2!



But it has to go through Torres before it's released. Why would he risk falling out with Rafa if it wasn't even true? It'd be stupid.
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Exactly. Just compare that Liverpool team with Chelsea, Manchester, Arsenal, Juventus, Milan. It wasnt good enough, if Liverpool won that Champions was because Rafa´s genius tactics.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Jumbo_ said:
I already said Torres was an exception.

I know about Leto's work permit problems, but that only puts it in the bracket of a shite signing IMO. These days most players if they are good enough can get through on appeal due to the amount of football they'll play and the fact they'll be more likely to get in the national team because of this. The fact Leto didnt says it all. He went on loan and still didnt do enough to get in a national team that has selected nearly 80 different players under the current manager.

If it doesn't prove Rafa doesn't really like flair wingers then it does prove that it was another poor transfer by Rafa.
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He didn't get the work permit. Nothing to do with him being good enough or what not. And nothing Rafa could have done.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

How would he know Leto would have work permit problems? When he signed, he was free to play, and did start a couple of games. It was midway in the season, that the problems arose. And christ, we even managed to make a profit.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

man management is about treating every player differently. players like torres that fit into rafas coaching style excel while players that dont seem to be left behind.
Liverbird said:
Exactly. Just compare that Liverpool team with Chelsea, Manchester, Arsenal, Juventus, Milan. It wasnt good enough, if Liverpool won that Champions was because Rafa´s genius tactics.
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theres a lot more that happens in a football match than genius tactics. even if his tactics were good it wouldnt have won his team the match. there was a lot of luck that went into that match and almost every match that gets played especially if they're tight ones. uniteds last couple runs in the cl had some amazing tactical performances but i dont claim they're the soul reason we won the games or the competition. at a team like liverpool or united it should be expected that you're astute tactically.

im not trying to take anything away from rafa but to say he won you the cl with his tactics alone is crazy.
 
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Re: Liverpool Thread

I agree Phat J 22.

Abhi - usually if a player doesn't get a work permit the transfer is cancelled. He only played for you in the CL as the rules are different for this. Liverpool signed him despite not getting a permit then got him a dodgy Italian passport to get around this which was revoked after an investigation.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

:LOL: Deary me!

Just out of curiousity Jumbo what did Torres have to say in his book about Rafa?
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

He said that when he told Rafa that he was having a baby Rafa just carried on talking about corners or something!!! ::LOL:
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

:LMAO: Yeh I think that is a problem, SAF, Mourinho and Wenger sides have all had that "Family" like environments you feel. Players like Lampard and Ronaldo especially improved much more cause of their relationships with the coach.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

I rate him as a manager for fuck sake!! But surely you can see these things are causing problems and he's far from perfect? You just seem to make excuses for him.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

What excuses? I've said that he has to take a huge share of the blame for the current situation. I've said that much. There's no excuses for the way we're playing. We're in bad form, and playing disjointed football, and our defense is a joke. Rafa's responsible for that.

All I'm doing is defending him for all those cliches that are thrown at him. YoungGun's claim that Rafa doesn't have a good relationship with players is bullshit, the moment you hear Gerrard talk about him, and consider how he's become on the of best players in the world under him.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

i gotta say this is quite a weird conversation. there are some man utd fans who show respect to rafa for his tactical knowledge but say he's not perfect (wich is definitely agreable) and some liverpool fans who admire rafa's skills as a a coach but admit he's made some mistakes (wich is also agreable)....
the only thing i can't get is.... why are u guys arguing then? coz it seems to me u're all saying the same thing! :P

anyhow there's one line that made the read worthy
He said that when he told Rafa that he was having a baby Rafa just carried on talking about corners or something!!! :
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:APPLAUD::WORSHIP:
i always liked rafa, as a coach and as a person....
but if he really did that, then i got a new idol!
seriously the more i try to picture this scene in my mind, the more i respect the Man!! :LOL:

liverbird said:
No way Spalleti is better than Rafa. His methods injured a lot of romans players
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:?
yeah, he has this bad habit of throwing darts at his players while they're doing their tour de stade..... too bad as he could make a pretty good coach if it wasn't for his sadism.... :LOL:
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Abhishek said:
All I'm doing is defending him for all those cliches that are thrown at him. YoungGun's claim that Rafa doesn't have a good relationship with players is bullshit, the moment you hear Gerrard talk about him, and consider how he's become on the of best players in the world under him.
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But then we could talk about Xabi, Keane, Mascherano, Babel, Agger, etc. All players who want/wanted to, or have left because of Rafa.

He does have good relationships with certain players though, I mean, he must be best friends with Dirk Kuyt considering he's always in the team. Either that or Rafa got caught in a brothel in Amsterdam and Kuyt has the evidence so it's all blackmail...
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

matherto said:
But then we could talk about Xabi, Keane, Mascherano, Babel, Agger, etc. All players who want/wanted to, or have left because of Rafa.

He does have good relationships with certain players though, I mean, he must be best friends with Dirk Kuyt considering he's always in the team. Either that or Rafa got caught in a brothel in Amsterdam and Kuyt has the evidence so it's all blackmail...
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What is Mascherano doing in that list ? I am argentinian and I have to say that Mascherano always sais that he admire Rafa, that he is the best coach he has ever had. But, last summer he wanted to leave because his wife didnt get the visa. Plus, for a southamerican its Liverpool its a complicated place to live (though I would love to live there) and he was wanted to play for Barcelona for those two reasons.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

SAF's only recently started doing it and only really tends to do it in the big games against teams with competent attacking fullbacks like Arsenal, Chelsea, Inter or Barca and so on. I expected Park to play on the left tomorrow to counter Johnson but he's injured so not sure who will now. Giggs probably but he's not the best defensively.

Giggs+Evra vs Johnson+Kuyt should be quite an interesting battle. :D
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Liverbird said:
No way Spalleti is better than Rafa. His methods injured a lot of romans players, he didnt care about his players (Aquilani for example).
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lo zio said:
:?
yeah, he has this bad habit of throwing darts at his players while they're doing their tour de stade..... too bad as he could make a pretty good coach if it wasn't for his sadism.... :LOL:
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lol i didnt even bother with that one :P
 
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