Nick Cave
Wrexham fan for my sins...
I've had a keeper booked once and that's about it, though I did have one vanish on me but that's a whole other EA thing...
Let's FIFA 11/12/13: Making the perfect football game.
- Thread starter romagnoli
- Start date
cereal_killer
Milou-dom
Nick Cave
Wrexham fan for my sins...
I hope they improve the AI shooting. Countless times playing against the AI, they'll just run into the box with the ball and carry on running until my keeper collects the ball. There needs to be some sort of trigger so that if you start rushing with the goalie, they know that they need to do something quickly.
Placebo
Ԁlɐɔǝqo
They're much better at shooting on world class and up, usually a lob which is hit or miss but at least they try 
aarenlainey
Non-League
- 29 March 2010
There would be more of other features that are needed to be improved further here.In order to make the things more perfect. The rating system shown above is quite perfect here.
Yeah, they do try the odd lob, but never when they're in the box. I'm talking about situations were they get the ball 9-10 yards out and they start towards goal, if I press Y to move my goalie out they don't do anything and just run and my keeper just dives at their feet and collects the ball.They're much better at shooting on world class and up, usually a lob which is hit or miss but at least they try
There's never a situation were the AI will get the ball, I'll start to rush my keeper out and then the AI sees that and takes a shot. They always just run into the keeper.
Gab_
I agree
- 6 April 2009
The way that FIFA currently simulates time wasting needs a serious look at. Currently the CPU (if it is winning) goes up in attack and pass the ball around like barcelona making it really hard to take the ball. They can have a 1 on 1 with the keeper and still don't shoot, instead walk away and pass someone else and waste time (always very deep in your half). Every team does this exactly the same with perfect cool and perfect passes... so amazingly scripted and unrealistic that you can't help yourself from screaming at the screen.
Most teams in real life don't attack with the full team and pass it around if they're winning. I would say most teams often clears the ball because the players don't have the confidence and technique to pass the ball around while the other team charge forward with 100% pressure. Maybe manages to clear it to a forward that then tries to waste time by the corner flag or try to get a freekick or throw in.
Most teams in real life don't attack with the full team and pass it around if they're winning. I would say most teams often clears the ball because the players don't have the confidence and technique to pass the ball around while the other team charge forward with 100% pressure. Maybe manages to clear it to a forward that then tries to waste time by the corner flag or try to get a freekick or throw in.
nerf
Forming triangles
Apologies for quoting myself, I just thought it would be better to have this stored in the appropriate thread rather than lost in the less-appropriate thread it was originally posted in.
It goes some way to illustrate one of my major problems with FIFA 10. I've been playing quite a bit of FIFA 09 recently, it's nowhere near as messy as this.
...in fact, without wanting to erroneously paint 09 as some sort of paragon of defending, here are a couple of examples.
It clearly did a better job of setting the defensive line; not flawless, but not as terrible. If this was fixed up and the marking improved, as well as improving the general decision making (when to track runs, cover for teammates etc), it would make FIFA 11 playable.
Because even my Sunday League team doesn't defend like this:
Here are two separate examples from this week of the moment a player is about to release an attempted through ball from about 30/35 yards out. Look how Arsenal's defenders set up (even if the line isn't perfectly horizontal, it's their intent we're looking at).
1.
2.
To contrast with FIFA Italy's trademark 'startled starfish' defensive approach to the exact same scenario:
It goes some way to illustrate one of my major problems with FIFA 10. I've been playing quite a bit of FIFA 09 recently, it's nowhere near as messy as this.
...in fact, without wanting to erroneously paint 09 as some sort of paragon of defending, here are a couple of examples.
It clearly did a better job of setting the defensive line; not flawless, but not as terrible. If this was fixed up and the marking improved, as well as improving the general decision making (when to track runs, cover for teammates etc), it would make FIFA 11 playable.
Because even my Sunday League team doesn't defend like this:
R
Review
Guest
I hear ya. Messi needs to play like Messi and Barcelona needs to play like Barcelona. They should take a page from NBA 2k10 and add signatures styles for the best players. Signature shots, passes, dribbles, tricks, feints, and turns.
- Thread starter
- #192
romagnoli
Misses Retri
- 7 August 2004
Just wondering what people think of Klash's post on the fishall's about giving out tricks in a far more precise way than just a 5 star system. This kind of stemmed from an argument about how many skill stars Messi should have, given that he doesn't really perform tricks. Some people think he should have 5 stars because he could definitely do the tricks if he tried, whereas I personally argue that the point of the trick ratings is that it's meant to represent an animation set that the player has based on his personality.
I think tricks should at least be grouped together in a different way, and there should be more substitute tricks to cover the more technical ones (e.g. 3 star(?) players do at least pull off a simpler trick when you try an elastico). The McGeady spin could be replaced by something more like Berbatov's turn and flick v West Ham last season, except without the flick up, maybe even without stopping the ball.
The idea behind Klash's and my thoughts is that you should limit the more technical skills to the most technical players, rather than the hundreds of players who seem to be able to do bloody rainbow flicks at the moment. Given that the game is moving towards letting you dribble past players just by using the left stick, tricks are going to become less essential and more about trimming, more about individuality than necessity. I personally think there needs to be error built in to the trick system too, so that, even if a player CAN do a trick, it doesn't mean that he'll pull it off every damn time unless he's very good at it. If you bumped JT's trick rating up to 5 stars, should he be able to run rings round players despite his appalling stats in the dribbling and ball control dept?
I think tricks should at least be grouped together in a different way, and there should be more substitute tricks to cover the more technical ones (e.g. 3 star(?) players do at least pull off a simpler trick when you try an elastico). The McGeady spin could be replaced by something more like Berbatov's turn and flick v West Ham last season, except without the flick up, maybe even without stopping the ball.
The idea behind Klash's and my thoughts is that you should limit the more technical skills to the most technical players, rather than the hundreds of players who seem to be able to do bloody rainbow flicks at the moment. Given that the game is moving towards letting you dribble past players just by using the left stick, tricks are going to become less essential and more about trimming, more about individuality than necessity. I personally think there needs to be error built in to the trick system too, so that, even if a player CAN do a trick, it doesn't mean that he'll pull it off every damn time unless he's very good at it. If you bumped JT's trick rating up to 5 stars, should he be able to run rings round players despite his appalling stats in the dribbling and ball control dept?
Last edited:
Gab_
I agree
- 6 April 2009
Personally I think every player should be able to try to do every trick, they can try to do it in real life so why not in the game?
People have to understand that the only reason FIFA plays like "street" is because every trick succeeds 100% of the time, which obviously isn't the case in real life. I have seen defenders in real life, that you thought had shit ball control, do advanced tricks in the warm ups before the game. So it's not like they can't do a lot of the moves, it is just when doing in under pressure in game, they fail very often (which is the reason they never perform them).
The system that I want to see is where everyone can try to do a trick. Currently if I try to do a McGeady spin with someone that can't do it, nothing happens and he just runs straight a head. This is very confusing for me as a user, because I don't know if I made a bad move with my thumb or what the hell happened. You should always give the user the output that he expect from the input (I have mentioned this 100 times before).
What should happen is that this guy maybe has a 5% success rate of this trick, meaning that he will most likely lose the ball while performing this trick (hopefully in a dynamic way so it doesn't look exactly the same all the time). So even if you do fail the trick, something good might come out of it, you never know, just like in real life.
The rainbow flick for example should have an enormous fail rate, even for the most skilled players out there. There is a reason that no one every does it under matches and only in warm up. It's really hard to pull off perfectly and even if you do manage to flick it over your head, the direction and length will wary a lot so you will probably lose the ball even if you manage to do it.
So to sum it up:
Personally I think every player in the game should be able to try to do any trick. For every trick (or groupings of tricks if EA are lazy) they implement fail rates. So Ribery might have 90% chance of pulling of the McGeady spin, while John Terry has a 4% chance. If they don't pull it off they will lose the ball while doing it (just like it is implemented currently in the 360 spin if you do it while running, but with more random outcome so the ball doesn't get lost the same way all the time because it looks scripted).
People have to understand that the only reason FIFA plays like "street" is because every trick succeeds 100% of the time, which obviously isn't the case in real life. I have seen defenders in real life, that you thought had shit ball control, do advanced tricks in the warm ups before the game. So it's not like they can't do a lot of the moves, it is just when doing in under pressure in game, they fail very often (which is the reason they never perform them).
The system that I want to see is where everyone can try to do a trick. Currently if I try to do a McGeady spin with someone that can't do it, nothing happens and he just runs straight a head. This is very confusing for me as a user, because I don't know if I made a bad move with my thumb or what the hell happened. You should always give the user the output that he expect from the input (I have mentioned this 100 times before).
What should happen is that this guy maybe has a 5% success rate of this trick, meaning that he will most likely lose the ball while performing this trick (hopefully in a dynamic way so it doesn't look exactly the same all the time). So even if you do fail the trick, something good might come out of it, you never know, just like in real life.
The rainbow flick for example should have an enormous fail rate, even for the most skilled players out there. There is a reason that no one every does it under matches and only in warm up. It's really hard to pull off perfectly and even if you do manage to flick it over your head, the direction and length will wary a lot so you will probably lose the ball even if you manage to do it.
So to sum it up:
Personally I think every player in the game should be able to try to do any trick. For every trick (or groupings of tricks if EA are lazy) they implement fail rates. So Ribery might have 90% chance of pulling of the McGeady spin, while John Terry has a 4% chance. If they don't pull it off they will lose the ball while doing it (just like it is implemented currently in the 360 spin if you do it while running, but with more random outcome so the ball doesn't get lost the same way all the time because it looks scripted).
Placebo
Ԁlɐɔǝqo
I don't mean to belittle anyone but who can and cannot do tricks in Fifa is so far down the list of problems with the series right now that should be addressed, that I can't see any point to wasting any time, or maybe it's just me that finds tricks inconsequential due to the players I use in Fifa.........
nerf
Forming triangles
I agree, this sounds like how it should be.
Gab_
I agree
- 6 April 2009
Maybe so, but the thread is not for FIFA 11 only. The trick system is broken and should be fixed, maybe for Let's FIFA 13 if Manager Mode isn't still top priority
- Thread starter
- #197
romagnoli
Misses Retri
- 7 August 2004
We already have dozens of posts in here and hundreds throughout the official forums to cover other problems. I've been on a mission to make sure EA are up to their ears in suggestions for fixes for pretty much every fundamental gameplay flaw going. They aren't short on advice, believe me.
However I do think tricks are a potentially serious issue. It took EA till WC2010 to make it feasible to dribble past players without using tricks at all. Tricks cannot be allowed to go completely unchecked as the celebrations have. It's utterly imperative to me that EA don't just go about fixing the game in one or two areas, leaving several other glaring issues completely unaddressed because we were too busy complaining about the same thing. You don't paint a wall by putting 15 coats on the same corner.
About giving everyone the same tricks... I'm not sure I agree, though I see the thinking. I definitely agree that there should be error, and that tryin to press certain trick combos should lead to something happening rather than nothing at all. I get the sentiment about giving everyone the same trick set, but I can't see it being workable or having the desired effect of making the play believable.
I also disagree that Neville should be able to try a triple elastico. Some players wouldn't even know how to try certain tricks, let alone try and fail. Certainly the more fundamental tricks should be universal to some extent, but I do think there is a line beyond which players wouldn't even know where to begin for the most fanciful moves.
Gab_
I agree
- 6 April 2009
I agree Neville might not know where to start, but if you told him in real life what would happen? He would probably lose the ball directly after the first touch, so you wouldn't even see that he tried the triple elastico. I don't think they should play the whole animation and plop the ball out from it. His animation would fail after the first touch, so it wouldn't really look stupid like if he did the whole thing.
But what do you think should happen if I did a trick that doesn't exist for that player? You said you think something should happen, but I can't see how something could happen if he didn't try to do the trick.
But what do you think should happen if I did a trick that doesn't exist for that player? You said you think something should happen, but I can't see how something could happen if he didn't try to do the trick.
nerf
Forming triangles
Then they should instantly trip over the ball, stumble and lose it. Otherwise you're into the realms of subsitute tricks or, worse, nothing at all, and I don't like the idea of either.
- Thread starter
- #200
romagnoli
Misses Retri
- 7 August 2004
We currently have substitute tricks. Are you not a fan of those?
My worry is that there are more tricks than can be mapped to just L2 and the right stick. How do you give lesser players the tricks that they are currently assigned and still keep the option to perform the more elite tricks, without losing some of the spontaneity with which more technical players can perform them?
I don't think one button and one stick is up to the task.
My worry is that there are more tricks than can be mapped to just L2 and the right stick. How do you give lesser players the tricks that they are currently assigned and still keep the option to perform the more elite tricks, without losing some of the spontaneity with which more technical players can perform them?
I don't think one button and one stick is up to the task.
Gab_
I agree
- 6 April 2009
I think they could add some basic tricks to left stick like in PES. Like dropping a shoulder/body feint, two foot dribble (I don't even think this exist in FIFA, I mean the one Iniesta often does) and maybe some others too. This way some of the basics moves are available to people that don't use tricks but want to be able to take on a man without going fifa street on his ass.
- Thread starter
- #202
romagnoli
Misses Retri
- 7 August 2004
Gab,
you can do the two foot dribble. It's not a trick, but it's something that occurs naturally when you move the player about. I do it an awful lot with David Silva in the WC demo - knocking the ball from one foot to the other, juggling it about until the defender is sucked in, then knocking the ball on with the right stick.
Another one WC2010 has on the left stick is the sidestep (much like PES 5 which did the same on the LS). However, as I've bleated several times over on the official forums, I think much more should be mapped to the left stick, such as L2 + sideways on the right stick, which does the body feint from which you can either do the Stanley Matthews or a shoulder drop.
you can do the two foot dribble. It's not a trick, but it's something that occurs naturally when you move the player about. I do it an awful lot with David Silva in the WC demo - knocking the ball from one foot to the other, juggling it about until the defender is sucked in, then knocking the ball on with the right stick.
Another one WC2010 has on the left stick is the sidestep (much like PES 5 which did the same on the LS). However, as I've bleated several times over on the official forums, I think much more should be mapped to the left stick, such as L2 + sideways on the right stick, which does the body feint from which you can either do the Stanley Matthews or a shoulder drop.
Nick Cave
Wrexham fan for my sins...
Commenting on the lack of handball in 10 on another site which I have copied here, it made me think about including more player characteristic and non human input into the game, as I stated I think this would add to the game but means some incidents and actions would be down to the individuality of the players rather than the pressing of a certain button combo! I'd be interested to know what you guys think of this...
I'd still love to see more variations on running and shooting styles and I know we all crave to see more individuality of players in the game stats wise and I feel this would only aid that!...
It would be very hard to implement in anyway other than a random event such as a last ditch block or a slide tackle to cover leading to a raised arm or hand, you could have a deliberate handball button selection as with a dive button I guess but otherwise it would be out of your control...
That opens a whole can of worms regarding other things. Do you want 100% control over your player and his actions or say a player with high aggression getting up and reacting or retaliating to a bad challengeby confronting the player, as happens in real life but is not as a direct button press by you?
This would bring more realism into the game for me but would mean some things were not 100% human controlled...
I'd still love to see more variations on running and shooting styles and I know we all crave to see more individuality of players in the game stats wise and I feel this would only aid that!...
It would be very hard to implement in anyway other than a random event such as a last ditch block or a slide tackle to cover leading to a raised arm or hand, you could have a deliberate handball button selection as with a dive button I guess but otherwise it would be out of your control...
That opens a whole can of worms regarding other things. Do you want 100% control over your player and his actions or say a player with high aggression getting up and reacting or retaliating to a bad challengeby confronting the player, as happens in real life but is not as a direct button press by you?
This would bring more realism into the game for me but would mean some things were not 100% human controlled...
YoungGun_UK
20 TIMES!
Yeh I think it would be difficult to do it "properly" but the likes of Ronaldo and Messi who are world stars should atleast have their characteristics.
TikTikTikTikTik
*****
- 7 August 2004
- Liverpool
Something I posted in the WC thread, but really should have been in here. It's only a bit of fluff in the whole scheme of things but still worth a look:
Was thinking about presentation and replays/celebrations the other day and how they could fix it. I came up with a very simple solution to make it all more lifelike: Just shoot all the cutscenes as if they have been filmed in real life.
So none of the "low cam near the waist looking up at the players" nonsense, no goal replays that "you are a midget standing on the pitch looking up Gerrard's arse while he takes a freekick" crap. None of the weird half high sweeps or running alongside the player stuff. Only make replays and celebrations from a real perspective.
I find it amazing that they haven't done this. Surely it's an essential element to recreate the atmosphere.
Was thinking about presentation and replays/celebrations the other day and how they could fix it. I came up with a very simple solution to make it all more lifelike: Just shoot all the cutscenes as if they have been filmed in real life.
So none of the "low cam near the waist looking up at the players" nonsense, no goal replays that "you are a midget standing on the pitch looking up Gerrard's arse while he takes a freekick" crap. None of the weird half high sweeps or running alongside the player stuff. Only make replays and celebrations from a real perspective.
I find it amazing that they haven't done this. Surely it's an essential element to recreate the atmosphere.
Nick Cave
Wrexham fan for my sins...
Yeah, surely they could just copy a few league game entrances and a few top cup game entrances, I'm sure we'd all be very happy if they just did a deal with sky and straight copied their presentation for the whole thing...
YoungGun_UK
20 TIMES!
They must do as their is Sky Sports boards in MM, They should use that to their advantage.
stuartyd
Premier League
- 11 October 2004
I totally agree.
I think limiting certain skill moves to certain players will add to the individuality that we are all looking for. I think I'm right in saying that when the elastico got introduced in PES only Ronaldinho & C Ronaldo could do it, certainly not all players.
I appreciate that this limitation would only add to the Real Madrid, Man U abusers but hey ho they would probably have chosen teams like that anyway.
stuartyd
Premier League
- 11 October 2004
The bit in bold is my pet hate, I've been saying this over on the official forums for ages now. Another one is the replay of a foul which is zoomed in on the player who makes the tackle and you can't see jack s***t, who the hell came up with the idea of these kind of replay angles?
Right........
My thoughts on what 2 things are needed.
Individuality and "Calculated Randomness"....
Individuality
This has been laboured extensively on here I assume and must be split into 2 parts. Individuality of the player and also the team which must be addressed in 2 parts, but are linked. As is the calculated randomness
The Player-
I want a player to not only play but behave how they do. From heads dropping to other's inspiring others. Yes I want Xavi to play like Xavi, creating space effortlessly with a change in direction not a trick, etc, and outwitting more burly midfielders, but I want the team to have a brain.....
The Team
not so much wanting Barca to play like Barca which everyone says etc etc, but i want a team to target the new young fullback just brought in the team for instance..... I want a keeper dodgy on crosses to be tested by the A.I with more balls ion the box. If an inswinging corner maybe lead to a chance and made the keeper flap, I want the A.I to prey on this weakness, put more men round the keeper, pump the ball in etc. Lots of things like that, especially in a career/manager mode etc
Calculated Randomness
This is going to be hard to explain so please bear with me, and I will use a recent example....
Many will disagree. But I think it is a massive thing all next-gen titles miss- the players character. Why players do things "in the heat of the moment"
Why did Busquets roll around last week? Cos he got facepalmed, and went down to get an advantage as his character is of a bit of a cheat. Therefore hidden stats could show "Gamesmanship"
as say at 80. His reaction like this of course won't always happen to a foul/tussle. Its very rare. maybe such a scenarion happens once in 200 games. When the probability arises there's an 80% chance Busquets rolls around due to his stat. Most refs will then send Motta off in real life.... Maybe Fifa's ref in the match is influenced- (another hidden stat) and sends Motta off, or he gestures Busquets up and books him?
Now, more hidden stats could show lets say Zlatan's reaction to Busquets. What if the hot-headed Swede fouls Busquets, or indeed any other Inter player as he is in a rage at his mate's sending off???- no different to normal. But what if it was a very late, and deliberate (we all do it when playing lets be honest). As it was late and clearly deliberate when we pressed to slide tackle, as we set out with "intent", why dont we get a new animation, showing it 2 footed, or leaving the "foot in" etc
I could give loads of subtle idea, from reacting to going a goal down, to feeling the ref got a goal wrong (offsides and goals should have "human error" in the game, not just a clear goal or not.... Obviously then some players whinge and get booked...sometimes.
None of the above bar the bad tackling, should be player controlled. It should be calculated randomness.
In conclusion
Invisible stats for Gamesmanship, showboating, temper, Mental strength (positive and negative to going a goal down/lost cause), influence on the play of those round you, composure with snatching shots or chances, reaction to hostile crowd etc etc Stuff sometimes just happens...........like the real sport.
Officials, who get things right and wrong, wave away clear penalties, and get conned. All rare, but all "in the game" and random. Kind of random anyway.
I hope Fifa 11 comes out, and we are all seeing new stuff not just eleven vs eleven and new cut scenes that don't mean a thing.
I hope some of you can piece together my ramblings and venture to my world out of the box........
My thoughts on what 2 things are needed.
Individuality and "Calculated Randomness"....
Individuality
This has been laboured extensively on here I assume and must be split into 2 parts. Individuality of the player and also the team which must be addressed in 2 parts, but are linked. As is the calculated randomness
The Player-
I want a player to not only play but behave how they do. From heads dropping to other's inspiring others. Yes I want Xavi to play like Xavi, creating space effortlessly with a change in direction not a trick, etc, and outwitting more burly midfielders, but I want the team to have a brain.....
The Team
not so much wanting Barca to play like Barca which everyone says etc etc, but i want a team to target the new young fullback just brought in the team for instance..... I want a keeper dodgy on crosses to be tested by the A.I with more balls ion the box. If an inswinging corner maybe lead to a chance and made the keeper flap, I want the A.I to prey on this weakness, put more men round the keeper, pump the ball in etc. Lots of things like that, especially in a career/manager mode etc
Calculated Randomness
This is going to be hard to explain so please bear with me, and I will use a recent example....
Many will disagree. But I think it is a massive thing all next-gen titles miss- the players character. Why players do things "in the heat of the moment"
Why did Busquets roll around last week? Cos he got facepalmed, and went down to get an advantage as his character is of a bit of a cheat. Therefore hidden stats could show "Gamesmanship"
as say at 80. His reaction like this of course won't always happen to a foul/tussle. Its very rare. maybe such a scenarion happens once in 200 games. When the probability arises there's an 80% chance Busquets rolls around due to his stat. Most refs will then send Motta off in real life.... Maybe Fifa's ref in the match is influenced- (another hidden stat) and sends Motta off, or he gestures Busquets up and books him?
Now, more hidden stats could show lets say Zlatan's reaction to Busquets. What if the hot-headed Swede fouls Busquets, or indeed any other Inter player as he is in a rage at his mate's sending off???- no different to normal. But what if it was a very late, and deliberate (we all do it when playing lets be honest). As it was late and clearly deliberate when we pressed to slide tackle, as we set out with "intent", why dont we get a new animation, showing it 2 footed, or leaving the "foot in" etc
I could give loads of subtle idea, from reacting to going a goal down, to feeling the ref got a goal wrong (offsides and goals should have "human error" in the game, not just a clear goal or not.... Obviously then some players whinge and get booked...sometimes.
None of the above bar the bad tackling, should be player controlled. It should be calculated randomness.
In conclusion
Invisible stats for Gamesmanship, showboating, temper, Mental strength (positive and negative to going a goal down/lost cause), influence on the play of those round you, composure with snatching shots or chances, reaction to hostile crowd etc etc Stuff sometimes just happens...........like the real sport.
Officials, who get things right and wrong, wave away clear penalties, and get conned. All rare, but all "in the game" and random. Kind of random anyway.
I hope Fifa 11 comes out, and we are all seeing new stuff not just eleven vs eleven and new cut scenes that don't mean a thing.
I hope some of you can piece together my ramblings and venture to my world out of the box........