Let's FIFA 11/12/13: Making the perfect football game.

romagnoli said:
I agree that the player movement is wrong AS WELL AS the method and control over taking free kicks/corners in the first place. It's not an engaging, sit up in your seat moment. The lack of thought required to take them both through the act of taking then and the disinterested behaviour of others on the pitch, makes them feel pretty lifeless.
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Bland, lifeless, all of the above. It is nice that the PK system at least now has an element of suspense to it, or at least more than it did before.

Here's what I don't get:

So if you're left footed and want to curl the ball left to right with top and sidespin, you would charge up the shot, press 10 o'clock or so and then roll the stick past 12 o'clock. A fast roll would see you whip your foot round the ball more, adding more top/side spin but making it more likely that you lose some accuracy. A more gentle roll would see you risk less spin, placing the shot more instead.
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1. I charge up my shot power. Pretty self explanatory;
2. Then I press the (L?) stick in the direction I would want my boot to make contact with the ball;
3. Then I... do what now? I roll the (L?) stick to simulate spin?

But if I'm using the same stick to do both 2 and 3, how does the game differentaite between where I want the ball struck and the spin? I.e. If I go to 10 o'clock then roll to say 2 o'clock, how is the game sure I didn't just intend to hit the ball at 2 o'clock with no spin?

Hmm, now that ive written it out I guess it makes sense, and the problem I just mentioned would be part of the learning curve. Okay, I like it.
 
I would like to see the skill moves system change.

First, I'd like to see the star ratings become representative of player potential, not ability; they should indicate likelihood of success, not limits on what can be attempted. So, for example, a player would not need five stars to be able to attempt a five star trick, however a player without a five star rating would require the absolute ideal circumstances to complete the most difficult tricks.

Second, and I'm less sure of this part, I'd like to see the star ratings themselves change. An idea would be to include half star ratings and basically make each half star be equivalent to 10 percent. A player, say a CB, with only a half star skills rating would only have a 10 percent chance of completing a five star trick under ideal circumstances, basically meaning when he's not under pressure and the player perfectly inputs the trick. Likewise, a five star player would have a 100 percent chance of success when not under pressure etc.

It does get trickier when working out success rates for less than five star tricks, and I admit I haven't fully thought this part out, but I think it's doable. So like a two star rated player would have a fifty percent chance of pulling off a four star trick; a one star would have a thirty three percent chance of completing a three star trick, etc.

To me changing the system makes sense on many levels. First, it's simply realistic that any player can attempt any trick. Right now Rooney is, I believe, three stars and he can't attempt the simple stop and turn move. How the hell does that make sense? Second, I'm sick of trying so damn hard to remember who can do what, and though this won't solve that issue by itself it would help if players at least attempted moves and failed rather than me having to guess whether I inputed the move correctly or if the player didn't have the right rating. (i much prefer not having to remember each damn player's skill rating in PES.) Third, a system that gives a player more freedom in choice of actions is in tune with what games are doing in general by focusing on greater freedom - dammit I should have the freedom to attempt a 360 with John Terry if i want to... as long as the trick system ensures that Terry falls on his face the majority of the time I try such a stupid thing.

I get that EA are worried about games - at least h2h matches - becoming a trickfest but the current system is poor and is due for some tweaking. Thoughts?
 
I'd like the input method to be changed as well. Sometimes when I want to do a trick nothing happens, because for some reason; I've done the L2/trick input too fast together, or whatever it doesn't come off.
I don't really think the idea of hitting L2 then doing a motion really lends itself to smooth gameplay.
 
To be fair, can you imagine a different input system that allows for such a variety of different skills? It's a very simple system when you consider the variety of tricks. I do agree it could be improved though.

For one, maybe the system could be made "smarter" so that it's better at recognizing what you're trying to do. The amount of times I'll screw up a simple ball roll is frustrating and we're talking about one of the most simplest of tricks.

To be honest, I think in theory the combination of L2 and the R stick is a great system for skill moves, it's just the application could be improved. For me there's two specific problems with completing tricks during matches:

1) I struggle at times doing the simplest moves because of having to adapt each move's controls to the direction I'm heading. I'm not sure this is a problem with the system as much as I wish it was a little more forgiving/understanding of my inputs.

2) I rarely can remember a player's skill rating. Sure in my CMs I learn each player's particular abilities but in other cases, like when playing UT, there's no chance that I remember who can do what.

Again, like I said in my previous post I think one step toward making the trick system both more realistic and practical would be to move away from limiting what players can attempt and toward a system that is based on possibility of success. At the minimum such a change would remove the frustration that stems from attempting a skill move only for your player to not respond at all.
 
Yea that's true, maybe my frustration getting the better of me. I always have to think about the direction I'm facing when I want to do a move, so I do the move in my head, then on the control, which usually means the balls going the other way already.
 
The problem with stick usage is that inevitably it will add delay. For the easier tricks it is more of a problem because they are often instinctive. I have asked EA to look at making far more of the simple, body shifting moves to be left stick based - for example, if moving forwards, tapping forwards again should see you fake to slow down and then tap the ball forwards again. Fingers crossed they listen to that!

But also with the delay, it makes reading what you've pressed reliably all the more important. If there's lag then it adds a lot more time onto you realising the trick hasn't been pulled off than just the lag alone, because you feel you have to wait to see if the trick was actualy read but is taking longer than expected. For some reason FIFA 11 seems a lot less reliable than 10 or WC for this. I dunno about you guys but I also find the right stick knock on also seems to make up which direction I've pressed at times - I'll end up losing the ball because it knocks the ball into a direction I didn't want it to precisely because I knew it wouldn't work!

As for the lag, I'm not 100% sure it's that bad (well it is, but I mean I'm realistic about not expecting instant response). It's the momentum issues that mean that the responsiveness you need from the game is instantaneous. The general fidelity of the game in close quarters is buggered anyway, whether you're playing a manual pass or just want to get out of a pingpong tackling situation; this extends to tricks as much as anything. PES isn't more responsive but it is more evenly balanced between someone who is holding pressure and someone who is trying to dribble or trick their way past. Consequently, once you know what you can and cannot do, you don't feel the responsiveness is a problem, even in close quarters where you can wriggle out of very tight spots.
 
Just out of curiosity Rom are you also putting your efforts to try and help improve PES 2012? Not saying you should but personally I'd love PES to improve on this year's addition as I think its got a better "base" to improve on using the WENB feedback sections
 
I'll make suggestions for it, but PES is an enigmatic beast. The studios have very different ways of doing things - where FIFA try to copy football directly as often as possible, PES is happy to veer quite a bit from real life in order to get an end product more like football. PES also needs to keep some of that hyperrealism, that exaggeration of aspects of football, in order to make them the focus of the game and translate the idea across to us. Plus I think that game is very much one man's vision, even if he is accepting feedback from us.

I might send some stuff to Adam and ask him to pass it on to Murph - it's just going to be a lot harder to be heard in Tokyo.
 
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