FIFA/FC vs PES/eFootball

Chris Davies said:
Many reasons.

I buy football games to be a part of a virtual recreation of the real world. I play football games to take a poor team and slowly (not overnight) turn them into a club that rise a division, or two, and then struggle again, with the AI providing a realistic interpretation of every real-life team I come up against, mirroring the real team's ability, manager, tactics...

That's alongside real-world problems, like getting through an injury crisis, developing youngsters, transfer windows, having to sell players to get by...

Playing online immediately means resigning from realism (in more ways than one), whether you play FUT/myClub or the standard "Divisions", and resigning from club management in general (just pressing "play match" over and over).

FUT/myClub means having the best players in the world from day one (which it never used to be - you used to start with a bronze team and work your way up, which I enjoyed). It means playing against people who spam buttons and use whatever the latest exploit is to force a result. Playing the AI might be rubbish, but in comparison to playing online, at least the football they play is semi-realistic (with variety based on team strengths or pre-defined tactics, not based on giving the ball to the fastest player, or only ever using finesse shots).

Outside of gameplay, it's boring. There's nothing to do other than buy the best players (who exist thousands of times over), and be placed in divisions based on your performance rather than your team's performance (you don't play in a league, even in "Divisions", you simply have to reach a certain points total - there are no teams around you).

I hate it, frankly. Both games have created eSports that are games in their own right, but they're not football games. If career modes didn't exist, I wouldn't buy the games.

You play on manual - I struggle to find any matches on manual (I have tried, largely in FIFA but also in PES) and even then, it could be the best gameplay in the world, but there's no realism in the squad management mechanics. Injured player? Buy an injury card! All that crap... If you play "Divisions" or similar, it's just playing the same game over and over (not in gameplay terms, but in squad management terms - you have no reason to rotate your squad, or take risks on fatigued players or developing youth players).

And frankly, I don't want to have to play on manual. There should be a football game that exists by now where you can't simply push a random direction on the stick (where no player exists) and the "pass" button, and yet always make a successful pass, by default. There has to be a half-way house between you never miss a pass and you must get the exact degree of stick rotation and length of button press right to make any pass.

Granted, win online and you know you've beaten a person, which is more challenging than beating the CPU, and therefore satisfying. But I feel more satisfaction playing PES and getting a Europa League place after a long season against semi-realistic AI...

...than playing FUT/myClub and reaching a designated "WIN" points total, after just ten games, playing as a 90-rated super-team, against a fantasy team of players from three different eras, in a match that plays like pinballs flying between magnets, with someone holding a gun to your head and screaming "PASS NOW THEY'RE PRESSING PASS PASS PASS FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD" because tactics (by-and-large) mean absolute jack-shit and you have to "play their game" of pressing for 90 minutes and never letting go of "sprint" and always being on all-out attack and it's just so shit.

In my opinion. (You asked...)


The question "why don't you play online" elicits the same response in me, i.e. "why the hell would anyone play online" (due to all the above). But I know many do... because we all enjoy different things...

Even if you gave me my dream online football management experience somehow - a persistent world where every player only exists once, where there are real transfers between clubs that you negotiate to try and get the best deal (because budgets matter), where you play every league/cup game but it's against another person and not the AI...

...the gameplay would be so highly skewed to the person, and not the team or their strengths, that no match would be (e.g.) Newcastle v Tottenham. It wouldn't represent them at all. It would be Chris v Other Guy, both playing how we always play, which isn't shaped by the type of players we have, but by the engine's "weaknesses".
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I do agree with what is said here,i really need my football fix, can anyone recommend me a Pes game modern,better than pes 2019, because i m not enjoying pes 2019 with its way too assisted gameplay on 1 bar and basic shooting...
 
Lobbedball said:
I do agree with what is said here,i really need my football fix, can anyone recommend me a Pes game modern,better than pes 2019, because i m not enjoying pes 2019 with its way too assisted gameplay on 1 bar and basic shooting...
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I've been talking to @Emroth about this all week on Twitter. :D

The best AI in a "modern" PES game for me is in PES 2017. The AI actually varies its play depending on the team and the players, they will surprise you with long shots occasionally, and each game is a little different. On PC you've got some brilliant mods that make everything licensed - on PS4 you've got decent option files (from that era, not with current players sadly) and better graphics.

Compared to the modern games, there are niggles - often my players (but it happens to the AI too) become "locked" in an animation that sets them onto a collision course with a defender (or goalkeeper), and it's really difficult to accept responsiveness issues when PES 2019 feels so good on-the-ball. But for playing against the AI, PES 2017 was the last great PES experience, for me.

It is absolutely clear-cut how the AI is diluted from then on. Playing PES 2018 afterwards, you see the same patterns starting to appear for every AI team. Lots of backheels, but even more chipped through-balls. In 2019, on Top Player and above, every team has the pass accuracy and fluidity of Man City, when they need a goal.

As the on-the-ball gameplay has improved and the gameplay made more "open", the AI has been dumbed down to cope with the increase of variables. In my personal opinion. (And AI changes from now on are made with myClub players in mind, not guys like us - so it'll just get artificially harder, faster and sillier...)

I've stopped playing FIFA 19 because it's just stupidly fast, and again, the AI has been programmed for FUT guys and not us (I conceded a goal over the weekend where the striker was moving his leg towards where the ball was going to be, literally less than a second before it had left his teammate's boot).

For me, the AI should be much, much more realistic in 2019 than it is...
 
The True Brits is a massive PES fanboy I think, take what he says with a giant pinch of salt. He uses his YouTube channel and Twitter to promote his PES Universe stuff.
 
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yep, sure he is a fan! of footballgames as a whole (like me) and then, when he had to pick one he would probably choose PES.
anyway... i like that he's talking about the stuff i don't like in the latest versions too. he's definitely not hiding the games flaws! so i like to watch his view on things. not much different with spoonys videos! to me that is!!

but yeah, ill make up my own impressions! first hand, while playing, when the demo and final game is out! :)

edit:
even when opinions differ (and per se thats a good thing), i always like to at least listen to the ones that are not mine. IF they are written in a civil way and make sense (somehow)!
in my life, i always did good at least to listen or better, think about why the "other side" has this or that opinion!
its not all good and bad, 0 and 1, truth or lie! life happens in between those values, imo! ;)

:D
 
Human eyes and brain easy can see and recognized when some animation or movements is not right or it's out of place. Since FIFA start using Frostbite engine, the animations are a huge problem and I can't handle it. Like PES fan I'm always jealous of FIFA's animation in the PS3 era, but now the things are turning around.
 
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Mikhail said:
The True Brits is a massive PES fanboy I think, take what he says with a giant pinch of salt. He uses his YouTube channel and Twitter to promote his PES Universe stuff.
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Umm... i think he mentioned that in one of this video...so i bet you did not watch the whole thing :P
And yes 90% of his channel PES content and yes the pesuniverse logo is on all his vids. These arent news. As for the pinch of salt he is very genuine about the game faults, hes a legit source who i and the majority of evo-web can identify with 100%.


And yes as for E3 PES won it hands down. EA just put out a trailer of Volta/general game, underwhealmingly looks the same as 19. While PES does too we got at least some content info and a tons of gameplay.
 
gabe.paul.logan said:
And yes as for E3 PES won it hands down. EA just put out a trailer of Volta/general game, underwhealmingly looks the same as 19.
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Er, I don't think anyone can honestly say either game looks massively different to the previous game...! The AI dribbling with Messi does not mean much, nor do ML cutscenes...

But fair play, they showed gameplay (which will change by release because PES always does). Would be interested to see FIFA's but, sadly, I think they've held off because it's currently "very slow" and loads of people have been complaining about it.

In-fact, when their community guy posted that they're "reviewing feedback", I begged them not to speed the game up (which is pointless I know) - and before long...


 
Chris Davies said:
Er, I don't think anyone can honestly say either game looks massively different to the previous game...! The AI dribbling with Messi does not mean much, nor do ML cutscenes...

But fair play, they showed gameplay (which will change by release because PES always does). Would be interested to see FIFA's but, sadly, I think they've held off because it's currently "very slow" and loads of people have been complaining about it.

In-fact, when their community guy posted that they're "reviewing feedback", I begged them not to speed the game up (which is pointless I know) - and before long...


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Its ok. I got your back!
Screenshot_20190618-110506_Twitter.jpg
:LOL:
 
Chris Davies said:
Er, I don't think anyone can honestly say either game looks massively different to the previous game...! The AI dribbling with Messi does not mean much, nor do ML cutscenes...

But fair play, they showed gameplay (which will change by release because PES always does). Would be interested to see FIFA's but, sadly, I think they've held off because it's currently "very slow" and loads of people have been complaining about it.

In-fact, when their community guy posted that they're "reviewing feedback", I begged them not to speed the game up (which is pointless I know) - and before long...


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The fastest both companies, split their versions to oneline/offline, the best for us will it be (i am not master Yoda :P :P )
Such response from online FUT/MC addictives , will be the main reason that the feedback and fixes are biased towards only PvP. really no probelm with these people, create a big online arena, even a MOBA, throw them inside and let them play, ping-pong, frontnine, deathmatch football, FPS FUT, whatever they like.
 
Chris Davies said:
Er, I don't think anyone can honestly say either game looks massively different to the previous game...! The AI dribbling with Messi does not mean much, nor do ML cutscenes...

But fair play, they showed gameplay (which will change by release because PES always does). Would be interested to see FIFA's but, sadly, I think they've held off because it's currently "very slow" and loads of people have been complaining about it.

In-fact, when their community guy posted that they're "reviewing feedback", I begged them not to speed the game up (which is pointless I know) - and before long...


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that first answer to your post is a mirror of the whole scenery, i guess! and its sad (in so many ways)!
i'm (we are) with you! we wont give up!! :SAL:
 
Chris Davies said:
In-fact, when their community guy posted that they're "reviewing feedback", I begged them not to speed the game up (which is pointless I know) - and before long...
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Jesus Christ. Simple people want a simple game it seems. Unfortunately this is the target demographic of both companies.
The stripper laps dances with the marks with the money, Not the cynics urging her that her talent is better spent in theater.
 
I reread that answer again.
Just a thought:
It seems to me, that people who answer like that can’t get their imagination running (blossom). How can he judge what’s competitive for me and what’s not?! To me, same button combos and same looking passing, crosses and goals with a high win at the end (aka esports PES League) isn’t my cup of competitive.
I get my competition feeling (and a lot more joy out of it...) when I’m playing with a second devision team trying to get relegated in ML. I personally dont need the fency scores or a clean 87 to 0 wins/loss streak... :)
But hey, I leave it to anyone to enjoy it their own way!

But the fundamentals of the sport aren’t for discussion!!! (guess you got me entering the fundamentals-train, @Chris Davies )

edit: i like your answering tweet, @Emroth ! :TU:
 
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PRO_TOO said:
Just a thought: I reread that answer over and over again.
It seems to me, that people who answer like that can’t get their imagination running (blossom). How can he judge what’s competitive for me and what’s not?! To me, same button combos and same looking passing, crosses and goals with a high win at the end (aka esports PES League) isn’t my cup of competitive.
I get my competition feeling (and a lot more joy) when I’m playing with a second decision team trying to get relegated. :)
But hey, I leave it to anyone to enjoy it their own way. But the fundamentals of the sport aren’t for discussion!!!
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It seems that "competitive" for them means the amount of goals they score.
They dont understand the whole concept of "chess" play, tactics, marking, thinking what the opponent will do next, thinking what you should do next, how to break the defence line.. they dont want to think. The only question is - will GK save my next shot or not.

They might not even realise, that mote realistic, slower game, could potentially bring them more emotions, more joy and be more rewarding when they score.

I dont think half those people ever experienced more indepth, realistic gameplay. They just dont know what they are missing.

Would it be difficult for them to adjust? Probably. Would they be pissed off that they cant go through the whole pitch glitching with Ronaldo? Definetely.
But once they understood the whole concept and how to actually play football - i think that at least half of them would appreciate what they got.
 
PRO_TOO said:
Just a thought: I reread that answer over and over again.
It seems to me, that people who answer like that can’t get their imagination running (blossom). How can he judge what’s competitive for me and what’s not?! To me, same button combos and same looking passing, crosses and goals with a high win at the end (aka esports PES League) isn’t my cup of competitive.
I get my competition feeling (and a lot more joy) when I’m playing with a second decision team trying to get relegated. :)
But hey, I leave it to anyone to enjoy it their own way. But the fundamentals of the sport aren’t for discussion!!!
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For me the most appropriate word is "amusing" or "challenging" . "Competitive" which is the "gospel" of the majority of online players, is not a feature i find interesting to be honest. 10 years before, i would say the different for both games , as i had the "virus" of " i want to be the very best/ i want to be the world champion/ i want to win every possible person on PES/FIFA/ i want to play from my couch and conquer the whole world". And it came very natural, as me and my best friend grew-up, the 2-3 times per year we can meet in someone's house, with a console and no wives-kids around, we prefer to play a coop ML, although we don't have time to play more than 1-2 seasons, than play 1vs1 with adrenaline and shouts as we are 20 years old again. We will of course play some 1vs1, best of 3 or best of 5 matches, but we don't find it as organic as a funny ML coop campaign. Even if in the past, we used to play 12-hours consecutive 1vs1 KONAMI CUPs.

I know this is offtopic, but i feel a little bit grampy, i prefer a good ML/CM story, 1,000% over playing 200 online exhibition random dudes and see who is the best. I respect "competitive" people, but i am not really interested in this project. The same i want from them, to respect us, we don't bother you, please don't bother us.

What i conclude is, i really don't find it is a crime to don't accept the "competitive" concept.
 
Emroth said:
It seems that "competitive" for them means the amount of goals they score.
They dont understand the whole concept of "chess" play, tactics, marking, thinking what the opponent will do next, thinking what you should do next, how to break the defence line.. they dont want to think. The only question is - will GK save my next shot or not.

They might not even realise, that mote realistic, slower game, could potentially bring them more emotions, more joy and be more rewarding when they score.

I dont think half those people ever experienced more indepth, realistic gameplay. They just dont know what they are missing.

Would it be difficult for them to adjust? Probably. Would they be pissed off that they cant go through the whole pitch glitching with Ronaldo? Definetely.
But once they understood the whole concept and how to actually play football - i think that at least half of them would appreciate what they got.
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but then... this sounds like playing a racing game where you dont take corners but hit every curb and drive a straight line just to arrive first (and there is no penalty for doing that)! it has nothing to do with driving, because a lot of fundamentals (drifting, braking, under/oversteering, slipstream driving, heel'n'toe,...i could go on)! its just about beeing first, no matter what! and thats crippling the sport (whatever sport that is) in a videogame!!

edit:
saying that about "beeing first"! nothing against that per se (we wouldnt be here if there wasnt the striving for more or better)!!! but this has become such a huge thing these days in general that "got too important for people", imo! everyone wants to be first, everyone wants to have an opinion on everything and everyone want others to let them know what they think and what they think is best! its crazy!
 
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I've recently found a few pro players who make sense and argue for some things that will actually make the games more realistic and more like football, which came as a surprise to me as I thought that the e-sport obsession was what was ruining the games, but it's not that simple. One of them even highlights many of the defensive issues in the games (when everyone screams "nerf AI defending!") and argues for more skilled passing and he does have EA's ear (which doesn't mean much).

Rex Dickson, the Madden creative director, quit earlier this year and he talked about all this stuff. About what their target audience is, the push for e-sports, even the DDA (the dynamic difficulty patent thing). So even though I haven't the slightest clue about madden/american football it was still very interesting to hear about all this from the horse's mouth, you can safely bet that most things will apply to Fifa as well. When it comes to gameplay, my main takeaway, is that it's the push to make the game accessible to absolutely everyone that's responsible for most of the dumbing down we're seeing.

There is this brilliant quote by the end of the video: "There's this attitude that the core consumers will come back and buy the game no matter what we do, so let's focus on the casuals and mass market audience". You could say that most of us here at evo-web are at least part of that the core group, so that's a very interesting thing to hear, right? :)

For anyone interested here's a link to the video:
 
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PRO_TOO said:

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Do you know why the ice skating is there, because of all the people who want instant response.
The game is built today to pass, shoot, cross as soon as you press the button not taking into account for the football player's animations. It should be the other way around when you press your button nothing happens until the football player is in a realistic position to do what you wanted.

What i'm saying is IRL if your controlling Messi and you make him pass he can't until his body gets into position to do so.

Sliding is seen when you press your button. So its either fast response times and ice skating unrealistically or less response times animation completes and its more realistic looking.

This is why we see ice skating today.
 
Chris Davies said:
Er, I don't think anyone can honestly say either game looks massively different to the previous game...! The AI dribbling with Messi does not mean much, nor do ML cutscenes...

But fair play, they showed gameplay (which will change by release because PES always does). Would be interested to see FIFA's but, sadly, I think they've held off because it's currently "very slow" and loads of people have been complaining about it.

In-fact, when their community guy posted that they're "reviewing feedback", I begged them not to speed the game up (which is pointless I know) - and before long...


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The term "slow" means so many different things to different people, I wouldn't get too caught up with this. Most FUTers that I've talked with usually mean slow when criticizing the game's responsiveness, especially online, which is a totally valid complaint, as online play can have real responsiveness issues.

I've played online games against people that were end-to-end games but the person commented that the game felt so slow to them, meaning their players were sluggish and there's input delay. Whereas I think many of us talk about it in terms of pace play and having a more realistic flow.

Unless you play online, you're likely thinking and talking about the game on different terms. The offline and online FIFA experiences are quite different.
 
Sometimes I think I understand gaming, but. There's this one guy I know, who turns on his PlayStation every night, plays FIFA 19 - specifically Career Mode - and his scorelines are broadcast via the "Friends" menu.

Every game he plays (as Everton), he wins by ridiculous scorelines:

TILXIpX.jpg


But he comes back and plays every single night, and wins 7, 8, 9 nil - then tells everyone how great the game is.

Isn't it incredibly boring?

And how as a company do you keep gamers like him happy, and gamers like us happy, with one game? (Well, I guess he can just keep playing on Amateur or whatever but... Seriously... I don't get it!)
 
Chris Davies said:
Sometimes I think I understand gaming, but. There's this one guy I know, who turns on his PlayStation every night, plays FIFA 19 - specifically Career Mode - and his scorelines are broadcast via the "Friends" menu.

Every game he plays (as Everton), he wins by ridiculous scorelines:

TILXIpX.jpg


But he comes back and plays every single night, and wins 7, 8, 9 nil - then tells everyone how great the game is.

Isn't it incredibly boring?

And how as a company do you keep gamers like him happy, and gamers like us happy, with one game? (Well, I guess he can just keep playing on Amateur or whatever but... Seriously... I don't get it!)
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Well, this week someone told me with gleaming eyes how he had won a match in FIFA 22-0.

He is 7 years old.
 
Chris Davies said:
Sometimes I think I understand gaming, but. There's this one guy I know, who turns on his PlayStation every night, plays FIFA 19 - specifically Career Mode - and his scorelines are broadcast via the "Friends" menu.

Every game he plays (as Everton), he wins by ridiculous scorelines:


But he comes back and plays every single night, and wins 7, 8, 9 nil - then tells everyone how great the game is.

Isn't it incredibly boring?

And how as a company do you keep gamers like him happy, and gamers like us happy, with one game? (Well, I guess he can just keep playing on Amateur or whatever but... Seriously... I don't get it!)
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I think it goes far beyond and deeper than that.

Socially, kids and teenagers (who are 15 or below) have a different conception of satisfaction and feeling fulfilled.
It's the #IWantItNow generation. And companies know that better than any of us.

As I'm writing this, I remember that amazing feeling of walking to the games store about 4 or 5 blocks away from my house just to see what I could rent. And if I didn't like anything, I'd just get ISS Deluxe on the SNES one more time.
Until I finally was able to buy it.
And then, I got a PSX. Oh, those were lovely lovely times.
Renting those first WE games on the PSX was a joy, I never wanted the night to end.
Until I found a way to make copies of the PSX games using my PC's disc-burner.... so now I'd go to the store like 4 or 5 times a year instead of every week.

But now I miss those times. I wish I had to go to the games store to see what's new and talk to the guy there who'd recommend me this game or that one (which usually would never match my own taste).

All they have to do now is press a button, put Daddy's credit card digits and start downloading.
It's no wonder they love winning 7-0 nil and feeling proud about that. They'd probably smash their controllers against the TV if they lost 5 or 6 games in a row.
 
This is why I think FIFA is closer to football nirvana than PES is.

Picture the scene - it's near the end of the season. You're fighting for a Europa League place.

You (Newcastle) are winning a very close game 1-0 against Leicester, and suddenly, they start throwing everything at you.

One of your CBs (Lascelles) is having the game of his life and he's saved you at least three times - he's having a Van Dijk day (because of his form this season, I received a £30m offer for him after this game - I love that the transfer system really works).

On Ultimate AI difficulty, they get this chance in the dying seconds, after my RB is pushed in the back and ends up heading the ball to their striker...


A totally rushed scuff of a shot.

I LOVE THAT THIS CAN HAPPEN, from the AI, on the hardest setting - every ball contact relies on physics and the physics can't just be ignored because the AI has to win.

Maybe PES 2020 will have a bit of this with the "miskicks" feature but from what we've seen in the gameplay vids so far, it'll be nothing as dramatic as this.
 
Chris Davies said:
This is why I think FIFA is closer to football nirvana than PES is.

Picture the scene - it's near the end of the season. You're fighting for a Europa League place.

You (Newcastle) are winning a very close game 1-0 against Leicester, and suddenly, they start throwing everything at you.

One of your CBs (Lascelles) is having the game of his life and he's saved you at least three times - he's having a Van Dijk day (because of his form this season, I received a £30m offer for him after this game - I love that the transfer system really works).

On Ultimate AI difficulty, they get this chance in the dying seconds, after my RB is pushed in the back and ends up heading the ball to their striker...


A totally rushed scuff of a shot.

I LOVE THAT THIS CAN HAPPEN, from the AI, on the hardest setting - every ball contact relies on physics and the physics can't just be ignored because the AI has to win.

Maybe PES 2020 will have a bit of this with the "miskicks" feature but from what we've seen in the gameplay vids so far, it'll be nothing as dramatic as this.
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Newcastle fighting for a Europa League place in the hardest difficulty..?
Yeah..very realistic..:DD

''every ball contact relies on physics and the physics can't just be ignored''.
Yes this can be true in some cases but there are also cases like this.Look at 7:14.
Total perversion of physics.


This is online,but i have seen these stuff happen offline also.Legs going through legs so you or AI can shoot as it was ''supposed'' to happen,headers going like the Hulk himself headed the ball etc.
So to say that EVERY ball contact looks correct and respects physics is a bit of exaggeration i think.
 
Dennis_87 said:
Newcastle fighting for a Europa League place in the hardest difficulty..?
Yeah..very realistic..:DD
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I know you're joking but it's a good point, sadly. People say the AI is too easy - and it is, in general - but I do find when you're playing a MUCH better team, the AI players go a bit, er, "bendy" (animations warping as they perform impossible maneuvers) in order to win. In PES they go into cheat-overdrive and I think that's worse, but not by much.

That being said, this is my second season, and I've managed to put together a great team balance after convincing a few promising players to join (which EA actually patched out a few patches ago - great players are much less likely to join not-great teams now, but I made these transfers before the patch)! :D

I do wish it was a harder grind - in the old days of PES you'd be grinding for 2-3 seasons to make a poor team good, then another few seasons to make them top-five. But I think those days are gone because nobody has the patience, sadly.

Dennis_87 said:
''every ball contact relies on physics and the physics can't just be ignored''.
Yes this can be true in some cases but there are also cases like this.Look at 7:14.
Total perversion of physics.
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Of course, not literally every single contact is perfectly calculated. But most calculations are very good, and when it's all based on ball velocity, spin, foot angle and the pressure that the player is under (i.e. how much he has to rush his shot), that's 4x more detail than you get in PES at any point (as has been discussed in the 2020 thread, if your player is roughly facing the player he's passing to, there is no need for a first-touch and the spin on the ball doesn't matter - if you press pass before the ball arrives, you will always hit a perfectly straight arrow of a pass).

I can't lie, it's not always perfect, and I've seen the ball hit an invisible goalkeeper's hand twice in the last year of playing FIFA 19. But at least once a game there's an example of the ball going through someone's legs in PES 2019 - and that happens in FIFA too but it's not usually the AI just fucking you over, it's usually because Frostbite is crap.

The only reason I actually played FIFA again last night (i.e. the YouTube clip) is that earlier I played PES 2019 and the AI scored by doing a sort of roulette turn with the ball through their standing leg and through my perfectly positioned defender's standing leg... Immediately had to turn it off.
 
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