FIFA 13

henrys hand said:
The reason why they haven't mentioned anything regarding inertia/momentum is because they haven't fixed it. Simple as that... When EA fixes something they trumpet it to the highest pitch, so that everyone and his mother knows about it.

Seems like introducing proper footplanting and a realistic inertia/momentum-model is not easily possible for EA without changing all of the gameplay surrounding it, so I guess until next-gen-Fifa it won't happen.

A major bummer for me, but I still look forward to the new AI and first-touch-improvements.
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Hmm, no I don't think it's as simple as that, at all. A core element of gameplay that is so big, such as player motion physics, is not just "fixed" - the way these annual sports titles develop is more typically through incremental change.

The problem with looking at it from the perspective of it being broken and then "fixed" is that you're ignoring all the improvements that have been made from year to year, and when you compare many aspects of FIFA's gameplay in 12 to, say, 09 or 10, it is clear that improvements have been made in the area of momentum/inertia and player motion overall.

For example, if you were to go back and look at the thread for FIFA 11, you'd see several posts I made that contained loads of video clips showing how terrible some of the sliding and turning can be in FIFA 11, especially for defenders. In FIFA 12, the majority of these problems were eliminated by adjusting how "free" movement is when jockeying and by adding new animations.

Speaking of new animations, I think it's Rom who's talked about a lot of FIFAs problems with turning and breaking momentum is that FIFA doesn't incorporate the correct animations at certain but very important instances. So it's not really about a massive "fix" but incremental change through adding animations and limiting some of the features that create too much freedom, like jockey and 360 dribbling.

In fact, a lot of the problems, if not most or all, we're having with motion physics and specifically momentum have been caused by the introduction of so many new features meant to incorporate realistic freedom, like 360 dribbling and jockeying. So it's not that either of these games ever had realistic momentum to begin with, it's just that their technologies didn't implement realistic movement to begin with but as a byproduct of that momentum and player weighting was incorrectly felt to be realistic. The problem with FIFA is not that they don't have realistic a motion physics engine, per se, but that they went overboard with many of their big features this console gen, like 360 dribbling and jockey.

Yes, it would be nice if EA overhauled everything to do with player motion physics in one single year, like they did when they added the Impact Engine, but for whatever reason that hasn't happened. And I'm not even sure that's actually possible (this is where my lack of programming knowledge lets me down). Or that it's even more efficient to do so than the strategy of improving it year by year. (Also, even with all the work on the Impact Engine, it still wasn't quite ready for release and is again this year a priority feature.)

So, yeah, EA likely haven't mentioned anything about it because there's no big back-of-the-box feature to announce. Or maybe EA consider momentum too boring, nuanced, or technical for its audience so they don't bother talking about it.

But just because they haven't "fixed" it yet doesn't mean there haven't been improvements, and doesn't mean that with more animations added in 13, the impact of Complete Dribbling, further enhancements to defending, etc, that we could have improved player weighting and a greater influence of momentum and physics.

For what it's worth, when the gamechangers were asked for our top priorities, I made momentum and player motion physics my number one priority. So this is a big issue for me and I agree it's FIFA's biggest problem (that along with the AI). But to ignore the improvements FIFA has made over the last half decade in the area of player motion physics, even if those improvements overall aren't to the level we'd like, isn't accurate and is a bit unfair to the devs.
 
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So there has been playtests by the community now, but when does the NDA end for this? Sometime in June? Hopefully you guys from here were there.
 
mfmaxpower said:
Hmm, no I don't think it's as simple as that, at all. A core element of gameplay that is so big, such as player motion physics, is not just "fixed" - the way these annual sports titles develop is more typically through incremental change.
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You are right, there are slight improvements in that regard from Fifa 09 to fifa 12, but it seems they are just a byproduct of added animation instead of a deliberate attempt at "fixing" it.

Once EA makes the problem of inertia/momentum and proper footplanting a priority then it will be really fixed, and when that happens EA will market it as a big feature.

For Fifa 13 the focus is obviously on AI, so I guess that despite the gamechanger's suggestions this one was probably put on the backburner till nextgen.

It's a bit strange though that a big company like EA can't fix two big aspects of a game in a single year (or in two years).

Regarding the AI: What I could gather from the interviews is that EA seems to have focused on the offensive AI but the defensive AI they have left unchanged trusting that it can cope with the new offensive AI.

Imho the defensive AI in Fifa 12 was not very realistic, it simply doesn't work in an organized way that you see in reallife football, so I'm disappointed that it will stay the same for Fifa 13.

Another field is the whole tactical side which needs a major overhaul. Currently playing Fifa 12 doesn't require of us players to think much about tactics and the possibilities for tactics and its effect on the pitch are rather limited.

So once the offensive and defensive AI got right and proper footplanting and a realistic inertia/momentum-model got introduced, the next thing EA should focus on is the tactical side of the game.
 
Gab_ said:
So there has been playtests by the community now, but when does the NDA end for this? Sometime in June? Hopefully you guys from here were there.
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I'm not sure when the NDA ends; I don't recall seeing a date.

Rom went to the one today but not many of the GCs were able to go. We were all a bit upset about how this came about all of the sudden. Unfortunately, the gamechangers have largely been ignored by EA since asking for our priorities for FiFA 13.
 
henrys hand said:
You are right, there are slight improvements in that regard from Fifa 09 to fifa 12, but it seems they are just a byproduct of added animation instead of a deliberate attempt at "fixing" it.

Once EA makes the problem of inertia/momentum and proper footplanting a priority then it will be really fixed, and when that happens EA will market it as a big feature.

For Fifa 13 the focus is obviously on AI, so I guess that despite the gamechanger's suggestions this one was probably put on the backburner till nextgen.

It's a bit strange though that a big company like EA can't fix two big aspects of a game in a single year (or in two years).

Regarding the AI: What I could gather from the interviews is that EA seems to have focused on the offensive AI but the defensive AI they have left unchanged trusting that it can cope with the new offensive AI.

Imho the defensive AI in Fifa 12 was not very realistic, it simply doesn't work in an organized way that you see in reallife football, so I'm disappointed that it will stay the same for Fifa 13.

Another field is the whole tactical side which needs a major overhaul. Currently playing Fifa 12 doesn't require of us players to think much about tactics and the possibilities for tactics and its effect on the pitch are rather limited.

So once the offensive and defensive AI got right and proper footplanting and a realistic inertia/momentum-model got introduced, the next thing EA should focus on is the tactical side of the game.
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Yeah, that's certainly a valid way to look at things, although whether EA will ever make it a priority for one specific release or whether it'll just be incremental improvements, is anyone's guess. After all, nothing is ever truly "fixed" - all aspects of these games are ever evolving - and maybe through incremental improvements momentum, footplanting, etc will reach acceptable levels sooner rather than later.

Regarding the defensive AI, that's been a hot topic for discussion and I think many of us are rightly concerned. Still, EA are very aware that upgrading the attacking AI could imbalance the game if the defensive AI isn't up to it managing the new offensive movements. Their answer to this question in the webcast was that the defensive AI already has in it the code to handle attacking movements and player runs, irrelevant of how advanced they are - they suggest that how a defender marks a man does not need to be changed or upgraded with the new attacking AI.

Now, there are certainly already deficiencies in the defending AI, but I think it's fairly safe to expect EA not to release a game that is drastically imbalanced in its AI after making the AI a priority - that would be disastrously embarassing. Those with less opinions of EA might think otherwise but right now I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Also, though defending hasn't been made the priority, every year upgrades are made and there's every reason to expect some improvements in 13.

Then, about your comments on the tactical side of the game, I agree 100 percent. In fact, behind player motion physics (momentum) and the AI, upgrading FIFA's Team Management options and menus was our (the GCs) third priority. That doesn't mean anything really, but so far all we've heard are FIFA 13's new gameplay features, and anything about tactics and team management will be revealed later.

So basically you've nailed what the GCs agreed on as the top three priorities in FIFA - momentum/movement physics; the AI; and Team Management. AI is being addressed, changes to momentum we likely won't know until we've played it, and changes to Team Management/tactics, if any are made, won't be revealed until later.
 
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mfmaxpower said:
Regarding the defensive AI, that's been a hot topic for discussion and I think many of us are rightly concerned. Still, EA are very aware that upgrading the attacking AI could imbalance the game if the defensive AI isn't up to it managing the new offensive movements. Their answer to this question in the webcast was that the defensive AI already has in it the code to handle attacking movements and player runs, irrelevant of how advanced they are - they suggest that how a defender marks a man does not need to be changed or upgraded with the new attacking AI.

Now, there are certainly already deficiencies in the defending AI, but I think it's fairly safe to expect EA not to release a game that is drastically imbalanced in its AI after making the AI a priority - that would be disastrously embarassing. Those with less opinions of EA might think otherwise but right now I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. Also, though defending hasn't been made the priority, every year upgrades are made and there's every reason to expect some improvements in 13.
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The most promising aspect of the AI is that the CPU will supposedly be able to think one or two steps ahead, ie. decide contextually and intelligently how to behave in the offense.


That same idea should though be applied to the defensive AI as well, to make the defensive AI able to think one, two or even three steps ahead. I mean this regarding pressuring, currently the pressuring is pretty linear, the one who has the ball gets pressured, always in the same way, regardless of context.

In real life football, defense and midfield use pressure contextually, that can even mean that two midfielders run away from the ball-carrier to instead cover the possible players who might get a pass from that ball-carrier, depending on situation.
I don't think that the reliance on the current defensive AI will make Fifa 13 unbalanced, knock on wood, but it will make it boring regarding defense and midfield play. That is what makes Fifa 12's gameplay so gridlike.

Changing the offensive AI is only a part of that, to really bring life to Fifa it is necessary to change the pressuring-AI in midfield and defense to think one or two steps ahead as well.

Another thing is the new first-touch-control-aspect which is long overdue, but why stop there and not adapt it to every touch of the ball?
 
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I dunno, personally I think this "thinking two passes ahead," or whatever is, is being made a bit too much of. In reality, football is mostly reactionary and, especially for defenders, thinking two passes ahead is just not happening.

And being able to think three steps ahead? Playing in defense, yes you'd like to be able to anticipate certain movements and plays, but for the most part it's really just about marking your man, picking up runs, and staying mentally focused on your job. Those are the things - the basics - that I think need improving when it comes to the defensive AI.

For my part I've played a lot of CB and it's really hard for me to imagine how often I'd actually be trying to predict multiple passes/plays into the future. For the most part it's simply about accurate threat assessment - do I stay on my man or is there another threat I need to pick up or do I just concern myself with maintaing shape/line?

In the webcast, the devs made the argument that the defensive AI is already programmed to be able to pick up whichever is the most important threat, so a new, more advanced attacking AI won't compromise the defense.

So, I dunno, I'm a bit non-plussed by this emphasis on thinking ahead. Sure it sounds great but in reality, IMO, what FIFA needs is better immediate decision making, such as who do I mark now, do I shoot or pass, do I dribble forward aggressively or put my foot on the ball?

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but when it comes to defending I'm not concerned that it's not getting the same type of upgrades as the AI - being able to anticipate two steps/passes ahead - because the basic nature of defending is much more reactionary. Keeping shape, knowing when to pick up a man/run, proper decision making in tackling vs containing - these to me are more important.

It works the same on offense for me: better movement and runs is very important, and being able to plan two passes ahead sounds neat, but for basic decision making is what needs a big upgrade - knowing when to pass, shoot, dribble, etc. This, combined with greater tactical variety, is what I'm really looking for.

I'm excited for the AI upgrades, like I said especially the movement and runs, but I'm a bit worried about what hasn't been mentioned.
 
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mfmaxpower said:
For my part I've played a lot of CB and it's really hard for me to imagine how often I'd actually be trying to predict multiple passes/plays into the future. For the most part it's simply about accurate threat assessment - do I stay on my man or is there another threat I need to pick up or do I just concern myself with maintaing shape/line? ...
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For a centre back that would be about right, cause anything else is too time-consuming as in the back every lapse can cause a goal immediately. But for the midfield the situation is a bit different and another approach possible and desirable.

The midfielders can and should act more contextually, since if they make a mistake in assessment there is still a backline as a safety-net.

So it would be desirable if there were different AI for the backline (differentiating between center and wings), for the midfield-player and the offense-players... both for offensive and defensive play.

The other aspect is regarding stamina/fatigue, an intelligent contextsensitive pressure-AI helps to better maintain stamina/fatigue. I guess this among other things is what differentiates good from better teams.
 
henrys hand said:
For a centre back that would be about right, cause anything else is too time-consuming as in the back every lapse can cause a goal immediately. But for the midfield the situation is a bit different and another approach possible and desirable.

The midfielders can and should act more contextually, since if they make a mistake in assessment there is still a backline as a safety-net.

So it would be desirable if there were different AI for the backline (differentiating between center and wings), for the midfield-player and the offense-players... both for offensive and defensive play.

The other aspect is regarding stamina/fatigue, an intelligent contextsensitive pressure-AI helps to better maintain stamina/fatigue. I guess this among other things is what differentiates good from better teams.
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Yeah, I see what you're saying. It's difficult, for me at least, to translate some of the terminology and concepts used in designing gameplay into what happens in reality on the pitch. An example is this planning ahead feature that's being done for 13.

In any case, I think most important right now in terms of defending is just for the AI to get better at maintaining shape and picking up runs.
 
That's brilliant. So right.

The offsides thing was always going to be hard to program (knowing which player a through ball is going to, for example) but it's occasionally terrible.

Then again, I'd say at least 90% of the time it gets it right.
 
mfmaxpower said:
I dunno, personally I think this "thinking two passes ahead," or whatever is, is being made a bit too much of. In reality, football is mostly reactionary and, especially for defenders, thinking two passes ahead is just not happening.

And being able to think three steps ahead? Playing in defense, yes you'd like to be able to anticipate certain movements and plays, but for the most part it's really just about marking your man, picking up runs, and staying mentally focused on your job. Those are the things - the basics - that I think need improving when it comes to the defensive AI.

For my part I've played a lot of CB and it's really hard for me to imagine how often I'd actually be trying to predict multiple passes/plays into the future. For the most part it's simply about accurate threat assessment - do I stay on my man or is there another threat I need to pick up or do I just concern myself with maintaing shape/line?

In the webcast, the devs made the argument that the defensive AI is already programmed to be able to pick up whichever is the most important threat, so a new, more advanced attacking AI won't compromise the defense.
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Top level football is built around pre-emptive movements. It has to be, particularly at the speed of the modern game. Defensively you wouldn't expect sides to think two passes ahead in the way described for attack unless that second pass is clear (which to be fair is in line with what EA have done by keeping the existing defensive setup). If striker 1 is about to pass to the left winger, you expect your defenders to still see striker 2 as a threat. But when your team is on the ball, you will find that most top level teams do build certain moves around routines designed to help players know where each other is (or key participants in the move) without having to look up for prolonged periods of time.

See this for more. http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jan/29/secret-footballer-andy-gray-pundits


So, I dunno, I'm a bit non-plussed by this emphasis on thinking ahead. Sure it sounds great but in reality, IMO, what FIFA needs is better immediate decision making, such as who do I mark now, do I shoot or pass, do I dribble forward aggressively or put my foot on the ball?

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but when it comes to defending I'm not concerned that it's not getting the same type of upgrades as the AI - being able to anticipate two steps/passes ahead - because the basic nature of defending is much more reactionary. Keeping shape, knowing when to pick up a man/run, proper decision making in tackling vs containing - these to me are more important.

It works the same on offense for me: better movement and runs is very important, and being able to plan two passes ahead sounds neat, but for basic decision making is what needs a big upgrade - knowing when to pass, shoot, dribble, etc. This, combined with greater tactical variety, is what I'm really looking for.
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The first choice does need work, no doubt. But I do think that can be done with things as they are - not that I know, of course, but I imagine the AI to be coded to rank threats in a way that is changeable, for instance, and pass/shot decisions will be based on an eventual probability calculation that will have plenty of room for tweaking. Whether it does is up to the people we routinely beg to smarten things up.
 
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To me that could be any Fifa from about 09 onwards, but then stills like that do nothing for me, show me something exciting EA, show me the new CM menus!!! ;)
 
Placebo said:
To me that could be any Fifa from about 09 onwards, but then stills like that do nothing for me, show me something exciting EA, show me the new CM menus!!! ;)
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yo are ok, but, well, I see new faces (di maria, albelda,soldado..) and i think that football field is bigger

nothing more.
 
Sorry but if people are getting hard ons because a few more players have REAL looking faces then it's obvious where EA's priorities lie.
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
Sorry but if people are getting hard ons because a few more players have REAL looking faces then it's obvious where EA's priorities lie.
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I do not care to faces, just comment the game and bring new photos ..

When you teach something of gameplay, menus etc. .. is also commented
 
mmmm oh, the best notice

bye bye madrid red!!! haha bye!!

all people with madrid red in online..I hate this...bfff
 
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