StuartCulli
College Dropout
- Joined
- 25 July 2006
- Newcastle United
The fuck are you talking about.
FIFA 13
- Thread starter OPM
- Start date
mfmaxpower
International
- Joined
- 29 July 2010
This is actually a timely discussion considering David Winner's recent interview with Wayne Rooney:
http://espnfc.com/us/en/news/1071240/beautiful-game-beautiful-mind-.html
And then Jonathan Wilson's comments on the topic in today's Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/may/29/wayne-rooney-answers-questions
My point, I think, was that yes, decision making, and within that a player's ability to correctly anticipate the game, is one of the most important aspects of the game, but translating what happens in the split-seconds a player chooses and implements his decisions on the pitch into "thinking multiple plays or passes ahead" is sort of twisting reality into fantasy.
Like you said, attack is a bit different from defense, which is more reactive, but even so complex attacking plays is more about repetition and practice than it is actual thinking and planning. Barca, for example, aren't who they are because of their ability to think ahead but because their players are instilled with a specific type of style from a very early age and they do it over and over and over again.
So, like Rooney with his now famous bicycle kick, it's the elite talent combined with 10,000+ hours of practice that makes certain things become like second nature and allows for brilliance on the pitch, not a player's ability to think ahead of the game.
Now, I am not saying being able to read the game and how moves might play out aren't of importance - they certainly are. For example, a fullback deciding to make a crash run into the box when the play is developing on the other wing can create a great scoring opportunity. Examples like this are plentiful.
My issue with what EA have said so far regarding the AI upgrades is that it seems a little too narrow in focus, with the emphasis being given to this planning ahead aspect, and I worry that other aspects of the AI will be left behind. For me, there's just a lot of stupid shit that needs to be worked on, like players not shooting, or the defenders who dribble all the way back to their 18 and then kick it out, or players not passing backwards, etc.
And maybe it's really just a problem that sometimes real life doesn't translate well when your designing games, like a footballer's decision making processes.
I think I might have just rambled more than anything else. Did that make sense?
DuduBR9
Champions League
- Joined
- 25 July 2010
Well, the graphics from the view of the field look different to last year definetly, but the interesting thing there is the AI teammate starting a run and giving you option. That's great!
AntrAcsA
Banned
- Joined
- 8 November 2006
YouTube - EA in a Nutshell
It's funny because it's true
It's funny because it's true
- Staff
- #215
Anyway, they could look a lot better with a better body model.
romagnoli
Misses Retri
- Joined
- 7 August 2004
Max - I don't see it as fantasy to think two moves ahead - the repetition you're speaking of applies to off the ball movement and team interplay as much as anything else, even though the teammates involved and the runs they're inclined to make may change. That said, I feel that having two separate moves being thought of would be better than linking the two 'moves' together.
I do agree that it's all for nothing if the first move of the two, or the final move as far as shooting is concerned, is bad. I hope that's what was meant when EA talked about the CPU being more 'human' at the lower levels, so that the Professional AI does shoot when clean through, as well as have a more vague understanding of passing percentages etc.
I do agree that it's all for nothing if the first move of the two, or the final move as far as shooting is concerned, is bad. I hope that's what was meant when EA talked about the CPU being more 'human' at the lower levels, so that the Professional AI does shoot when clean through, as well as have a more vague understanding of passing percentages etc.
mfmaxpower
International
- Joined
- 29 July 2010
Fair enough. I think my problem has more to do with the difficulty of trying to use programming code to replicate human behavior, and the way they marketed it to us in the webcast just struck me as not sounding quite right. It's beyond our capabilities at this time to replicate what goes on in a footballer's brain in those critical split-seconds, and these type of "gamey" solutions are necessary.
As the long as what they're doing works out - and as long as it's enough of an upgrade to the AI in general and not just in attacking moves - then I'll be happy.
As the long as what they're doing works out - and as long as it's enough of an upgrade to the AI in general and not just in attacking moves - then I'll be happy.
romagnoli
Misses Retri
- Joined
- 7 August 2004
The biggest problem right now with trying to mimic human behaviour - without getting carried away and talking about how they cannot map out a human brain - is that, even with the limited version of a footballer's intelligence that either game has now, they can only deal with one or two players at a time. Everyone else has to use an even more stripped down intelligence until it's their turn to be 'controlled' by the CPU or the user. It's never like the game is playing 11 v 11 Clubs, where 21 (or less) of the players are CPU controlled.
If every single player was thinking independently then there wouldn't be the need for something like this 2 moves ahead (which at least means more players are able to break free from the shackles of generic team positioning) to try and make up for it. Hopefully next gen will account for that, but right now slightly awkward fits like this are all we can hope for.
I've not watched the PES 2012 AI vids again to see how they did things, incidentally - I think that had two first move options instead of a first and second move?
If every single player was thinking independently then there wouldn't be the need for something like this 2 moves ahead (which at least means more players are able to break free from the shackles of generic team positioning) to try and make up for it. Hopefully next gen will account for that, but right now slightly awkward fits like this are all we can hope for.
I've not watched the PES 2012 AI vids again to see how they did things, incidentally - I think that had two first move options instead of a first and second move?
Juan Mata and Obraniak have got faces, too. Seems EA makes seperate faces this year.
Anyway, they could look a lot better with a better body model.
There is no way you can tell Obraniak has his real face with any accuracy
Arthur Young
Banned
- Joined
- 4 April 2012
That Wilson article in the Guardian should be a contender for Private Eyes "Pseuds Corner"!
John Locke - as if anyone takes his thought seriously in this day and age!
John Locke - as if anyone takes his thought seriously in this day and age!
Shikashi
League 1
- Joined
- 6 November 2009
Doesn't look like a generic face model from that angle, but you're right.
henrys hand
Premier League
- Joined
- 2 September 2010
I think you mean that the basics should be coded perfectly first, before trying to incorporate higher cerebreal functions of football.
But maybe it's possible to do both in one sweep...
Wishful tinking probably.
CalcioCalabrese
Weekend warrior
Having watched an Asian Champions League game in person last night, it was clear to see how the Japanese team built up play with well drilled routines and build up patterns. They knew exactly where each other would be when the ball went forward. That's more than 2 passes ahead but shows perhaps what EA might be thinking of. I think someone mentioned it the other day - about making sure they code in more than 1 pattern so the AI doesn't try to build up the same way.
You even notice on PES at the moment, if you cut off their passing lanes well, the AI sometimes hoofs the ball long. Not always and they do play out with some nice stuff, but once attacking intelligence starts using multiple outcomes and trying different things then I think we'll get to have some cracking games against the AI.
Let's face it - you do get some great games online or offline 1 v 1 - but that's not to say everyone you play uses entirely different buildup play.
You even notice on PES at the moment, if you cut off their passing lanes well, the AI sometimes hoofs the ball long. Not always and they do play out with some nice stuff, but once attacking intelligence starts using multiple outcomes and trying different things then I think we'll get to have some cracking games against the AI.
Let's face it - you do get some great games online or offline 1 v 1 - but that's not to say everyone you play uses entirely different buildup play.
Ronaldinho_23
Premier League
lionel messi 73 goals 25 assists..
c.ronaldo 62 goals 15 assists...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
mario gomez 32 goals?
EA sport will have a problem with stats...
c.ronaldo 62 goals 15 assists...
.
.
.
.
.
.
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mario gomez 32 goals?
EA sport will have a problem with stats...
CalcioCalabrese
Weekend warrior
??
Ronaldinho_23
Premier League
How you make in FIFA this?
If in real life, messi scored 73 goals, the last year scored 58...
this eyar in fifa 12, messi have 95, and no is the best, no is the most speedy, no is the player that make "a lot of" goals..
for me in fifa 12, alexis is better than messi..more speedy, more stonger..
then, as you do, that messi is the player who is in reality?
you can think that this isn't important, but it is, no is possible that drogba, ibrahimovic, pato, benzema etc..are the same level as the Argentine
CalcioCalabrese
Weekend warrior
Now I understand. Well I have said this before. I think FIFA shows off players with strength, speed and even heading ability. But they don't really let players with great dribbling shine. Play with Messi, Ronaldo and Robben on Pro Evo and then play with them on FIFA - to me, only Ronaldo is good on both games. Hopefully if the dribbling mechanics are more important on FIFA this year then the good dribblers will also shine.
p.s. FIFA screens and news have just hit Twitter!
p.s. FIFA screens and news have just hit Twitter!
Ronaldinho_23
Premier League
new screens are same that fifa 12..
graphics no is the most important, but, I pay for a complet game, gameplay, graphic
graphics no is the most important, but, I pay for a complet game, gameplay, graphic
Shikashi
League 1
- Joined
- 6 November 2009
Character models may be the same, it would be ridiculous if they weren't, but 13 is going to have a bunch of re-done and new animations.
Ronaldinho_23
Premier League
i think that EA could talk with coca-cola and others sponsors.
is sad look stadium with "fifa 10,fifa11,fifa12" "let go fifa" and this adverts..
grass could be more green, and less yellow
soccer goals
(i want like a PES)I don't saw the night lighting, but I hope the improve
bernabeu fifa - NIGHT -
bernabeu real life - NIGHT -
- Staff
- #232
The Ox has got a face, too, not a decent one, though.
I need to post here more often. There's always the summer. Assuming no change, I'm heading down to Guildford for a hands on this Friday, and will be able to talk about my impressions (I believe immediately, not entirely sure).
Just a heads up, if you have any specific questions you want answered or focused upon, post them here - http://fifasoccerblog.com/blog/fifa-13-playtest-we-want-your-questions/ - assuming they are relevant to on pitch gameplay impressions only (ie, no questions about graphics, licenses, game modes, kits, blah-blah-blah), they should get answered.
Just a heads up, if you have any specific questions you want answered or focused upon, post them here - http://fifasoccerblog.com/blog/fifa-13-playtest-we-want-your-questions/ - assuming they are relevant to on pitch gameplay impressions only (ie, no questions about graphics, licenses, game modes, kits, blah-blah-blah), they should get answered.
henrys hand
Premier League
- Joined
- 2 September 2010
I have four gameplay-questions regarding Fifa 13:
1. Is proper footplanting and a realistic inertia/momentum-model implemented?
2. Is the defense-AI improved and more realistic?
3. Is the tactical side of the game considerably expanded?
4. Is the stamina/fatigue-system relevant and improved?
To 1 & 3, I'm pretty sure it's a definite no. I'd hope for improvements with 2 and 4, but, I don't have much hope with either. Will definitely post if I am surprised by any of these factors though.
TikTikTikTikTik
*****
- Joined
- 7 August 2004
- Liverpool
I have one,
Does the AI adjust midgame based on the score (like PES does)? Creating a nice flow vs the AI.
Does the AI adjust midgame based on the score (like PES does)? Creating a nice flow vs the AI.
mfmaxpower
International
- Joined
- 29 July 2010
Rom said he noticed no difference in momentum from his playtest, so yeah, it sounds like #1 won't be improved, which is massively disappointing to me. Though what's being played now is a very early build, so I'm still hopeful that at least minor improvements can and will be made before final release.
But Rod, we don't know about #3 for sure, since changes to Team Management, which governs tactics, wouldn't be announced until later, right? I guess I'm still hopeful that Team Management - our (the GC's) #3 priority - will get an upgrade.
Also, regarding #2 we heard in the webcast that most of the improvements to AI are being done on the offensive side, so I think we can already say that #2 will likely remain pretty much the same.
Now, personally, I don't have too big an issue with the defensive AI - I still find defending in FIFA pretty easy in general and somewhat over-powered - so I'm curious to how you'd like it improved and made more realistic?
And regarding #4, I think that's also a no, or at least any improvement made in this area, it won't be present in this build.
mfmaxpower
International
- Joined
- 29 July 2010
The AI already does this - it's why so many people keep claiming that the game is "scripted."
But the problem isn't that the AI doesn't adjust, it's that AI and tactical features in FIFA aren't particularly robust.
Hopefully the upgrade to attacking AI will help and, like I mentioned above, hopefully changes to Team Management and tactics will be made for 13, though if they happen they won't be present in the current build being tested.
TikTikTikTikTik
*****
- Joined
- 7 August 2004
- Liverpool
Does it? Doesnt seem hugely apparant to me, other then a late in the match boost. I want the Ai to park the bus if they score and are playing a far higher rated team. Or the other way around and that my players can actually keep their positions instead of moving up with every counter. I know you can get them to somewhat execute a park the bus but it still is pretty poor imo. And most of the time doing that wont actually give you a tactical advantage and its easier to juts play how you were.
Scutch
Futsal Master
FIFA 13 PS3 preview: hands-on impressions
The biggest footy game around is back. But after yet another title win, will it continue to laud it over the rest of the footballing world next season? Find out as we go hands-on with FIFA 13 for the first time…
“Never change a winning team” goes the old adage in football – only it doesn’t always apply. Had Sir Alex Ferguson stuck to such a policy, Manchester United would still have Peter Schmeichel barking at defenders from between the sticks and Mark Hughes sternly strolling round up front grumbling F-words under his breath. (As opposed to doing the same thing on the Loftus Road touchline.)
Even Champions need to reinvent themselves, which is why perennial trophy-winner FIFA 13 is once again going through a summer of tinkering ahead of next season’s big title race.
So can EA Canada’s footy game succeed where United failed, and hold off its most hated rival? PES 2013’s round of pigsbladder-booting is shaping up well this year, so it’s critical that the longstanding genre leader evolves.
The biggest change on this front is control. First touch is contextual and dependent on your player’s abilities as well as all manner of advanced physics: the angle at which the ball is travelling, its velocity, its height, the distance between the stadium you’re playing in and the planet Jupiter, and so on. Ok, one of those is a fib, but the bottom line is no more insta-trapping: instead, Alan Lee will control the ball like Alan Lee rather than Lionel Messi.
Hands-on, it’s immediately clear that this adds much more variation and error to matches, although it’s a bit overdone at present – half the Lyon team also control more like Lee and less like Messi. My first couple of games were littered with individual mistakes, even playing as Chelsea and then Manchester City – teams packed with players of excellent technical ability.
The upside of them making unforced errors means you get the ball back more often – particularly in games versus the AI, which in previous years seem to deploy men with superglue feet at every level of the game – but the obvious counterpoint is that it’s also more difficult to retain possession, and giving the ball away cheaply yet having no control over doing so can does initially frustrate.
Some balancing is required, then, but the idea is a sound one and there are still around three months for developer EA Canada to fine-tune. The key to getting it right will be subtly differentiating between the better players in the world instead of taking the best of the best and then scaling down their ratings – Lyon should play more like Barca than Barnet.
Adjusting to this new control mechanic makes those first few games a little jarring at times, but otherwise the action is already as fluid as last year’s game, and some subtle improvements are very evident. Quick free-kicks happen seamlessly, with AI team-mates shifting the ball back into position then looking to move into space as soon as the ref’s whistle goes. Strikers also bend their runs better – although I still saw far too many offsides – and full backs seem more aware of when it’s a good time to overlap, rather than requiring a tactical prompt to do so.
Best of all, the ‘all-or-nothing’ gamble of the square-button tackle has been toned down: the AI assists the angle of your challenge this year rather than relying on you to get it right to the exact degree. There’s still an element of risk versus reward, but it’s been significantly downplayed – and that’s definitely a good thing.
Shooting feels much the same for now, although I spotted a handful of new keeper animations – including City and England custodian Joe Hart brilliantly diving backwards to claw a goalbound Frank Lampard rocket (deflected, obviously) around his near post. Players seem to leap more realistically, and hang longer, for headers too – in one game Didier Drogba nodded home firmly into the bottom left corner, from as far away as the penalty spot. It’s the kind of goal you’ve seen him score a dozen times for Chelsea, but never appeared possible in previous FIFAs – at least, not without a massive goalkeeper rick.
Penalties are the same. Hey, stop with the Dowie face – I’m just the messenger.
There’s little to report at present in terms of off-field improvements. I spoke to line producer David Rutter for an interview that’ll appear in issue 73 of the mag (out 10 July) about the possibility of a PES-style ‘quick subs’ screen – indeed I’ve nagged him about it for years – but he brushed off the enquiry. So either it’s a surprise being saved for later or, more likely, it’s not happening at all.
The most controversial discovery of the day occurred in my final game, playing as Barca against former OPM man Nathan Ditum’s Chelsea. From a Messi corner, Carles Puyol headed firmly onto the bar. The ball dropped down a good couple of yards over the line, span out… and the game went on. (I also went on to lose 0-5, so this moment wasn’t inconsequential.)
It could have been a bug in the early code, but here’s hoping it’s a nod towards Sepp Blatter’s reluctance to embrace goal-line technology. (Unlikely, yet we can hope.) US sports series MLB: The Show was improved significantly by the introduction of umpires who make mistakes, and FIFA would unquestionably feel even more ‘human’ if it made the same move – albeit with the option to turn them off it people want to retain robot linesmen. I’m speaking to Rutter again next week at E3, and will make sure to clarify this possibility – and what went on with the over-the-line non-goal – then.
For now, it’s clear that this early code still isn’t quite there – its biggest modification, that of player control, is clearly a work-in-progress. But elsewhere improvements outnumber moans, and FIFA holds the advantage of already being number one in the eyes of both fans and critics; so it’s going to take something truly special on PES’s part for the latter to do a Man City. There is one certainly you can already rely on ahead of next season, though: you’re going to enjoy it more than Mark Hughes will.
http://www.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/2012/05/30/fifa-13-ps3-preview-hands-on-impressions/
The biggest footy game around is back. But after yet another title win, will it continue to laud it over the rest of the footballing world next season? Find out as we go hands-on with FIFA 13 for the first time…
“Never change a winning team” goes the old adage in football – only it doesn’t always apply. Had Sir Alex Ferguson stuck to such a policy, Manchester United would still have Peter Schmeichel barking at defenders from between the sticks and Mark Hughes sternly strolling round up front grumbling F-words under his breath. (As opposed to doing the same thing on the Loftus Road touchline.)
Even Champions need to reinvent themselves, which is why perennial trophy-winner FIFA 13 is once again going through a summer of tinkering ahead of next season’s big title race.
So can EA Canada’s footy game succeed where United failed, and hold off its most hated rival? PES 2013’s round of pigsbladder-booting is shaping up well this year, so it’s critical that the longstanding genre leader evolves.
The biggest change on this front is control. First touch is contextual and dependent on your player’s abilities as well as all manner of advanced physics: the angle at which the ball is travelling, its velocity, its height, the distance between the stadium you’re playing in and the planet Jupiter, and so on. Ok, one of those is a fib, but the bottom line is no more insta-trapping: instead, Alan Lee will control the ball like Alan Lee rather than Lionel Messi.
Hands-on, it’s immediately clear that this adds much more variation and error to matches, although it’s a bit overdone at present – half the Lyon team also control more like Lee and less like Messi. My first couple of games were littered with individual mistakes, even playing as Chelsea and then Manchester City – teams packed with players of excellent technical ability.
The upside of them making unforced errors means you get the ball back more often – particularly in games versus the AI, which in previous years seem to deploy men with superglue feet at every level of the game – but the obvious counterpoint is that it’s also more difficult to retain possession, and giving the ball away cheaply yet having no control over doing so can does initially frustrate.
Some balancing is required, then, but the idea is a sound one and there are still around three months for developer EA Canada to fine-tune. The key to getting it right will be subtly differentiating between the better players in the world instead of taking the best of the best and then scaling down their ratings – Lyon should play more like Barca than Barnet.
Adjusting to this new control mechanic makes those first few games a little jarring at times, but otherwise the action is already as fluid as last year’s game, and some subtle improvements are very evident. Quick free-kicks happen seamlessly, with AI team-mates shifting the ball back into position then looking to move into space as soon as the ref’s whistle goes. Strikers also bend their runs better – although I still saw far too many offsides – and full backs seem more aware of when it’s a good time to overlap, rather than requiring a tactical prompt to do so.
Best of all, the ‘all-or-nothing’ gamble of the square-button tackle has been toned down: the AI assists the angle of your challenge this year rather than relying on you to get it right to the exact degree. There’s still an element of risk versus reward, but it’s been significantly downplayed – and that’s definitely a good thing.
Shooting feels much the same for now, although I spotted a handful of new keeper animations – including City and England custodian Joe Hart brilliantly diving backwards to claw a goalbound Frank Lampard rocket (deflected, obviously) around his near post. Players seem to leap more realistically, and hang longer, for headers too – in one game Didier Drogba nodded home firmly into the bottom left corner, from as far away as the penalty spot. It’s the kind of goal you’ve seen him score a dozen times for Chelsea, but never appeared possible in previous FIFAs – at least, not without a massive goalkeeper rick.
Penalties are the same. Hey, stop with the Dowie face – I’m just the messenger.
There’s little to report at present in terms of off-field improvements. I spoke to line producer David Rutter for an interview that’ll appear in issue 73 of the mag (out 10 July) about the possibility of a PES-style ‘quick subs’ screen – indeed I’ve nagged him about it for years – but he brushed off the enquiry. So either it’s a surprise being saved for later or, more likely, it’s not happening at all.
The most controversial discovery of the day occurred in my final game, playing as Barca against former OPM man Nathan Ditum’s Chelsea. From a Messi corner, Carles Puyol headed firmly onto the bar. The ball dropped down a good couple of yards over the line, span out… and the game went on. (I also went on to lose 0-5, so this moment wasn’t inconsequential.)
It could have been a bug in the early code, but here’s hoping it’s a nod towards Sepp Blatter’s reluctance to embrace goal-line technology. (Unlikely, yet we can hope.) US sports series MLB: The Show was improved significantly by the introduction of umpires who make mistakes, and FIFA would unquestionably feel even more ‘human’ if it made the same move – albeit with the option to turn them off it people want to retain robot linesmen. I’m speaking to Rutter again next week at E3, and will make sure to clarify this possibility – and what went on with the over-the-line non-goal – then.
For now, it’s clear that this early code still isn’t quite there – its biggest modification, that of player control, is clearly a work-in-progress. But elsewhere improvements outnumber moans, and FIFA holds the advantage of already being number one in the eyes of both fans and critics; so it’s going to take something truly special on PES’s part for the latter to do a Man City. There is one certainly you can already rely on ahead of next season, though: you’re going to enjoy it more than Mark Hughes will.
http://www.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/2012/05/30/fifa-13-ps3-preview-hands-on-impressions/