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FIFA 13

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They share tech for sure but not core engines as far as I'm aware :)

They're not some shitty dev like Codemasters who think they can turn a racing engine into a first person milsim engine!
 
info0 said:
Let me rephrase the above. Not NHL engine per-se more like... Read below :P.

Hm, heard it some time ago, that EA uses same core gameplay engine for all Sports games they make (NHL, Basketball, FIFA, Madden, not NFS and others though).

Later on I was confirmed of it by regularcat and FIFA modders, so I started to disassemble the game code myself. ;)

But even if you have no programming knowledge, run through all trailers for FIFA/NHL games. You wouldn't be as surprised. Player Impact Engine? Sure nice idea, but in FIFA it was rather bug fest in NHL it works (Players can break through GLASS walls. That is a sight to behold!).

Ultimate team? Nice test in FIFA. Running some time in NHL... For free ;).

Separate puck physics. I want to see such thing in FIFA, ie. separate real time calculated ball physics. This is something FIFA does not yet have imo ;).

Personality stuff, again, first introduced in NHL so each player reacts as his real life counterpart.

If you had played NHL game from EA you would find so many similarities you would have headache.

I will have to find article to prove all that though. ^^
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So basically you've seen some similarities among sports titles produced by the same company - big surprise - and decided to jump to the conclusion and promote it as fact that they share the same engine.

Typical FIFA-hating.

Yes, FIFA has many flaws. Yes, one of its biggest flaws is in the way players move without proper weight and momentum. This has been going on for years, though the skating and the sliding of the past - the reason for all the hockey and NHL comparisons this console gen - has improved dramatically, if only incrementally.

But no, FIFA is not NHL with a different name. What it is, is the most successful and acclaimed football game out there, and for good reason.

There are loads of reasons to justifiably criticize FIFA. That EA tries to maximize its resources by sharing tech and ideas among its sports titles isn't one of them.

Besides, as others have stated, the problems with FIFA's player motion physics likely comes from the transition to advanced tech that allows for greater freedom on the pitch, not because it borrows NHL's engine.

Both PES and FIFA in their transition to greater freedom have created problems elsewhere in their respective games. In FIFA, it's been with momentum and player weighting. I won't bother going into PES's issues here.

Criticizing FIFA's player movement is totally valid and justifiable. Creating something out of nothing just to belittle and attack the game are not.
 
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info0 said:
Let me rephrase the above. Not NHL engine per-se more like... Read below :P.

Hm, heard it some time ago, that EA uses same core gameplay engine for all Sports games they make (NHL, Basketball, FIFA, Madden, not NFS and others though).

Later on I was confirmed of it by regularcat and FIFA modders, so I started to disassemble the game code myself. ;)

But even if you have no programming knowledge, run through all trailers for FIFA/NHL games. You wouldn't be as surprised. Player Impact Engine? Sure nice idea, but in FIFA it was rather bug fest in NHL it works (Players can break through GLASS walls. That is a sight to behold!).

Ultimate team? Nice test in FIFA. Running some time in NHL... For free ;).

Separate puck physics. I want to see such thing in FIFA, ie. separate real time calculated ball physics. This is something FIFA does not yet have imo ;).

Personality stuff, again, first introduced in NHL so each player reacts as his real life counterpart.

If you had played NHL game from EA you would find so many similarities you would have headache.

I will have to find article to prove all that though. ^^
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I remember renting a copy of NHL 2011? and thinking to myself that the goaltenders are EXACTLY the same as their Fifa counter-parts. That was the year of Fifa 2010 which employed god-like goalkeepers in order to obviously counter the high amount of guilt-edged chances you get in one match.

I haven't played much Fifa since then so i don't know if that's changed a lot.

I saw other similarities but i think to a lot of Fifa players the comparisons between it and NHL end up hyperbolic even if some are true. I remember around Fifa 10 there was some guy on the EA forums who posted non-stop comparing the two games and claiming Fifa was just Ice Hockey but with a football.
 
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mfmaxpower said:
So basically you've seen some similarities among sports titles produced by the same company - big surprise - and decided to jump to the conclusion and promote it as fact that they share the same engine.

Typical FIFA-hating.
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I don't see any "Typical FIFA-hating" with anything he said. I think you're exaggerating. It's your post that comes across a bit aggressive in comparison to his.
 
Lami said:
I don't see any "Typical FIFA-hating" with anything he said. I think you're exaggerating. It's your post that comes across a bit aggressive in comparison to his.
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Yes, I probably was too aggressive. I just get tired of all the bullshit that gets thrown about.

And yes, "hating" is probably too strong a word, even if that's pretty much what he's doing by attempting to slyly belittle the game by making claims that FIFA uses NHL's engine.

info0 said:
They won't fix interia/momentum on this engine (it's used by NHL and only ported to FIFA. That's why you get to see players sliding on pitch motion :P).

Wait until next generation of consoles... For it to be fixed... ;)
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This is little different from posting in the PES forum the old and tired claim that the game plays on rails - it's intended as an insult, has little merit to it, and only serves to piss people off.

Based on his recent posts, he's clearly a PES fan. And in the relevant forums, he posts intelligent and helpful advice. But then he comes here and instigates. Maybe that doesn't meet the definition of "hating" but it's just as bad IMO.

I guess I just don't get what people get out of going into a forum for a game they clearly have a low opinion for and posting nonsense.
 
I guess the question is how threads for games should be treated - as areas for discussion by all parties, or areas for discussion solely by people who enjoy the topic in question.

I don't believe in segregating those who like FIFA/PES from those who don't. The 'I hate PES' thread was full of people enforcing and entrenching each other's opinions, gradually tipping major and minor flaws alike into hyperbole, while some of these perceived flaws could rightly be explained as strengths by other parties. The same becomes true of positives in the other thread - with nobody around to point out that certain observations are false or exaggerated, the game becomes beyond reproach. Both areas are hard to mine for good feedback - you could end up scrubbing out something the positive people see as a major part of the game, or you could end up not treating an area of concern because the positives are less receptive, perhaps even blind, to these weaknesses.

The NHL-FIFA connection, as you've said, is overplayed, and the idea is allowed to gestate and spread in ideal conditions - among those who want it to be true. But on the other hand, balanced discussion that doesn't degrade into slanging matches, trolling or a distinct us vs them mentality, is bloody hard - precisely because most football game forums are actually PES forums and FIFA forums sitting awkwardly together, comprising people who are mostly passionate about one or the other, rather than both.

But what other option is there? The more specialist a forum becomes, the more passionate the people who use it. You could probably have a much less emotionally charged discussion about nationalising the health service here than on a political forum with left and right wing subforums, but would you come out from it better informed overall? You'd still get the same clichés or uninformed one-liners in both cases - but they would at least be slapped down in the specialist areas by annoyed posters.

Ramble over.
 
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The first touch control both excites me and fills me with dread.

It's hard enough playing manual against assisted players already, but if my players are going to fluff it alot of the time when recieving the ball, it is going to make closing down that much more easier and people who use the legacy defending are going to have a field day.

But when with manual vs manual it will be great, but hard still.
 
I own every FIFA title since 98, own every ISS/PES title to date too. With few exceptions (didn't buy FIFA 08. 09. 10 on PC because it would be waste of cash, got them for console instead).

How does that make me PES/FIFA fanboy? ;)

I do enjoy both games, I also do have some programming knowledge and yes, those are the things not only I did see. So the truth lies in between somewhere ;). I didn't say FIFA is completely based off NHL game. That would be incorrect. Both games are vastly different in what they have to deliver, etc. ;)

However, dismissing the fact that both share parts of core gameplay is wrong. 360 dribbling, individuality/personality, gk reactions, AI, Player Impact Engine, physics (tweaked a lot) are all shared between the two. Plus in NHL they are pulled off almost bug ridden free.

No wonder NHL game from EA is the voted as best sports game almost every year. Yes, no FIFA, but NHL game (and yes, I do own them too, the joy they give is far more intense than what you can fine in any footy game released recently :/).

I can only say that I want to have TWO great footy games released THIS time around. No more bullcrap and PR talking nonsense. What I see on the pitch is what matters the most and sadly both PES 2k12 and FIFA 12 fail to deliever in that aspect (ok, FIFA didn't even bother to be patched, PES did release patches till now. That's what is called game support...).

Btw I do care for FIFA, but EVO web was not the site intended for FIFA in the first place I believe. If you want to see my input about FIFA go to soccergaming forums or EA forums :P. Nick is the same on all ;).
 
info0 said:
I own every FIFA title since 98, own every ISS/PES title to date too. With few exceptions (didn't buy FIFA 08. 09. 10 on PC because it would be waste of cash, got them for console instead).

How does that make me PES/FIFA fanboy? ;)

I do enjoy both games, I also do have some programming knowledge and yes, those are the things not only I did see. So the truth lies in between somewhere ;). I didn't say FIFA is completely based off NHL game. That would be incorrect. Both games are vastly different in what they have to deliver, etc. ;)

However, dismissing the fact that both share parts of core gameplay is wrong. 360 dribbling, individuality/personality, gk reactions, AI, Player Impact Engine, physics (tweaked a lot) are all shared between the two. Plus in NHL they are pulled off almost bug ridden free.

No wonder NHL game from EA is the voted as best sports game almost every year. Yes, no FIFA, but NHL game (and yes, I do own them too, the joy they give is far more intense than what you can fine in any footy game released recently :/).

I can only say that I want to have TWO great footy games released THIS time around. No more bullcrap and PR talking nonsense. What I see on the pitch is what matters the most and sadly both PES 2k12 and FIFA 12 fail to deliever in that aspect (ok, FIFA didn't even bother to be patched, PES did release patches till now. That's what is called game support...).

Btw I do care for FIFA, but EVO web was not the site intended for FIFA in the first place I believe. If you want to see my input about FIFA go to soccergaming forums or EA forums :P. Nick is the same on all ;).
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It's one thing to say that FIFA and NHL share technologies and have similarities. That's a perfectly valid observation and I don't think anyone doesn't expect EA to share tech and ideas among its sports titles.

It's quite another to say that FIFA's engine is ported from NHL's, imply that this is the reason for the lack of correct player motion physics, and then claim that it will not be fixed on the current engine.

EA have explicitly stated that they rebuilt FIFA's engine for 07. For you to say that, no, EA simply ported the engine is quite the bold statement. Which is why I asked you for a source.

FIFA has plenty of problems. Why you think it makes sense to draw conclusions from FIFA/NHL comparisons, I don't know.

And I never called you a fanboy.
 
The first touch thing could be great if they do it properly.

It would diversify the gameplay a lot by making you have to think about how to go about your football based on the players you have.

i.e. When using Spain/Barcelona, you can have the confidence to play the ball into people's feet at pace knowing that they have the technique to get it under control almost instantly, whereas with lower league sides that type of play would just give the ball away in dangerous areas, making it a better policy to just punt the ball forwards.

That's my biggest issue with FIFA at the minute to be honest, the way it doesn't reward or even encourage any kind of real football thinking.
There is a place in the market for a fast-paced action packed arcadey football game, but FIFA and EA takes themselves so seriously as an accurate representation of football.
I wish they'd deliver on that one of these years, or at least just just accept that they're not trying to deliver a simulation.

It's a bit like how with Mario Kart you can just have a quick blast on it and have loads of fun without being a fan of motorsport in the slightest.
Games like that are entertaining, but they aren't the ones I'd play consistently and when I'm on my own.

I enjoy a bit of FIFA 12 for a laugh with my flatmates, but it can't engross me in the same way PES used to.
 
mfmaxpower said:
...And of course FIFA encourages real football thinking. To say that it doesn't is a ridiculous exaggeration.
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I don't agree that it's an exaggeration. I think it's more a result of stats & individuality having more meaning on PES than FIFA.

Take shooting as an example:

- on FIFA, you don't really think twice about pressing shoot when you're in a goalscoring position as the ball will hit the target or go close to it
- on PES, you need to be very aware of the player's body shape and preferred foot before you press shoot, otherwise the outcome is a lot less forgiving than it would be on FIFA.

This goes for passing/throughballs and crossing also. You do have to think about when to make the pass and when your player is free etc with FIFA but the error is a lot more forgiving so you don't have to think as much about who you're controlling and whether their ability will be able to pull off what you're trying to achieve.

I'd be hoping for a FIFA assisted setting that took into account proper error instead of needing to resort to slider hacks or manual controls. More stat based error and proper first touch error has the potential to really diversify the often repetitive gameplay. You'd even probably need to increase your match length to really get an immersive feel :)
 
Sorry, but to argue that FIFA does not reward or even encourage any kind of real football thinking, as Rob did, is an exaggeration. Hell, even the earliest football games required a basic understanding of the game... or else it wouldn't be a football game.
 
I think it was a throwaway line though and didn't come across, in my opinion, as implying what you thought. He did say "any" but he didn't put it in bold or italics to make it stand out :P
 
mfmaxpower said:
Sorry, but to argue that FIFA does not reward or even encourage any kind of real football thinking, as Rob did, is an exaggeration. Hell, even the earliest football games required a basic understanding of the game... or else it wouldn't be a football game.
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That's a bit pedantic.

Obviously you need to know the very basics of football, such as which goal to aim for, the offside rule etc. but apart from that it's almost a simple "connect the dots" from A to B with a shot at the end. There's always a forward pass to a free player, the passing is too accurate, and the ball control too precise.

It seems like whenever you try something creative, when it actually pays off it's the exception rather than the rule - you're better off just plugging away with the quick counter attacks and chipped through balls than trying to set anything up with nice build-up play.

Playing multiplayer against people who self-admittedly take no interest in football, can still be on a level playing field if they know "how to FIFA".
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
I think it was a throwaway line though and didn't come across, in my opinion, as implying what you thought. He did say "any" but he didn't put it in bold or italics to make it stand out :P
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Yes, you're probably right. I guess I just get frustrated at how often the criticisms of these games get's taken to extremes, whether it's that PES plays on rails and lacks freedom, or that FIFA is dumb, arcade, etc. It's difficult to have constructive discussion when people choose to egregiously misrepresent these games.

It just boggles my mind why people bother to comment on a game pretty much only to bash it, frequently with nonsense. It happens all the time in FIFA forums regarding PES, and it happens here regarding FIFA. I guess it goes to what Rom said, and you have to take the bad with the good of the internet.
 
I've found myself generally doing quite well of late by trying to play something kind of like real football online. Whether that's because I'm actually benefitting due to the gameplay engine or simply because the other player isn't expecting variety/organised defending is another matter of course. But the rate at which I routinely face people who just use 1-2s between strikers to upset the central defensive shape, or use lofted through balls rather than passes along the ground, or move forward rather than sideways, is a clear effect of the current gameplay.

As max says, EA clearly try to make the game more realistic as they progress from year to year. But I think there are a lot of stumbling blocks along the way, the sorts of things we mention time and again. The nature of how the game is developed means that EA favour one or two pieces of extremely detailed new tech to several little, rougher representations of the same thing. It leads to bigger gaps in key areas while they wait for EA's attention (first touch), while the new tech has to be underplayed because they need to tessellate with these missing components to really shine (passing error).

But on the plus side, it means the areas they HAVE worked on should be futureproof, because they're more than detailed enough as it is. And once EA have spent enough time adding everything that's missing, eventually we should end up with something approaching our ideal football game. That's provided we can keep on elaborating exactly why we think each of these missing key ingredients are pivotal to a more realistic yet still fun experience. So, even though momentum hasn't been explicitly mentioned (and I do hope complete dribbling will address some of our problems), it is important to be positive about the changes that ARE in our favour.
 
Whenever I've played online as of late I'm just making a concerted effort to do the complete opposite I usually would do.

With FIFA being fairly one-dimensional to a degree, you start to open up realistic space if you just play with a bit of unpredictability.

EA could obviously implement plenty more options to do this & make it a little more engaging, of course, but mostly it's just down to the player getting suckered into playing FIFA and not football.
 
Yeah, I too have my fingers crossed that complete dribbling improves some of the problems with momentum. Though if it did, I'm not sure why they wouldn't have mentioned it, at least in the webcast, considering it's a top issue for the hardcore, GCs, and much of the community, and has been a top issue for years.

Maybe they're trying to emphasize what complete dribbling allows you to do rather than what it won't (since increased effects of momentum essentially equals less freedom)?

I'm also hoping that, even though defending has hardly been mentioned, new animations will be added to improve the issues on the other side of the ball.

Last year was a significant improvement over 11 in regards to how players without the ball could manipulate sprint, jockey, and the left stick to slide, turn, and do the impossible. That combined with auto-tackle was one of the primary reasons defending had been over-powered. Hopefully more animations will be added again this year to address some of the issues that remain.

I'm not getting my hopes up much though since they haven't mentioned anything about it specifically. But you'd think they'd understand that their new first touch feature will be compromised if players are able to move and react to a touch unrealistically.
 
One really good thing that hopefully will come out of this first touch is that we might not have all these passes into the box all the time. Well they're probably be there, but the result will be a lot of bad touches and not perfect scoring chance every time. You now, just pressing the pass button to someone deep inside the box that always take a great touch, followed by 5 perfect quick touches (both feet) in a half circle and shoots at goal.

I'm the complete opposite of BobbyBox on this. It's the best thing that could happen in FIFA and the first step towards complete dynamic touches on every touch and not just the first one. It'll come.

Also again I really hope the new AI they talk about is about realistic movement patterns and not only "gaming patterns" if you know what I mean. PES has some of these now with lay up plays and such, even if not much it is real life patterns of movements. There are a lot of patterns that all teams use, even if they're aware of them or not, and I hope EA study it more closely and tries to implement them soon.
 
What are your thoughts on the length of an online ranked match? If you want to play a more realistic type of game with a slower buildup, 6 minute halves aren't bad but 8 or 10 would be better. Especially if they start implementing more dynamic elements to the gameplay and buildup play. Or maybe I'm just sleeptalking this morning...
 
Gab_ said:
One really good thing that hopefully will come out of this first touch is that we might not have all these passes into the box all the time. Well they're probably be there, but the result will be a lot of bad touches and not perfect scoring chance every time. You now, just pressing the pass button to someone deep inside the box that always take a great touch, followed by 5 perfect quick touches (both feet) in a half circle and shoots at goal.

I'm the complete opposite of BobbyBox on this. It's the best thing tahat could happen in FIFA and the first step towards complete dynamic touches on every touch and not just the first one. It'll come.

Also again I really hope the new AI they talk about is about realistic movement patterns and not only "gaming patterns" if you know what I mean. PES has some of these now with lay up plays and such, even if not much it is real life patterns of movements. There are a lot of patterns that all teams use, even if they're aware of them or not, and I hope EA study it more closely and tries to implement them soon.
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Yeah, and another byproduct that I'm hoping for is that they'll tune down the reaction times of the CPU - if CPU defenders continue to be able to react lightning-quick at times, especially on the higher difficulties, the balance will be even more screwed-up with realistic first-touches.

There's a great opportunity here for EA to tweak/fix other elements of their game when they add the new first-touch feature and complete dribbling. Let's hope they don't waste it.
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
What are your thoughts on the length of an online ranked match? If you want to play a more realistic type of game with a slower buildup, 6 minute halves aren't bad but 8 or 10 would be better. Especially if they start implementing more dynamic elements to the gameplay and buildup play. Or maybe I'm just sleeptalking this morning...
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I don't think anyone would disagree that 8 minutes is better than 5, and 10 minutes is better than 8, if realism and slow build-up are the priorities.

That said, I don't imagine EA will ever move much beyond 5 min halves, for a myriad of reasons. One is the pure excitement level. Another, which I think is probably pretty important, is simply that people like to get as many games as possible out of their free time.
 
You're probably right on all those points. I thought it was 6 minutes at the moment? I've had some pretty entertaining games online with ebbs and flows. Maybe the decreased repetitiveness that may come in with these new changes will be enough to spice things up for me.

I was never a huge fan of the filtering system on WC 2010 because there were too many variables to finding a match. So whilst I don't mind options for who you can filter out online, it needs to be streamlined a bit.
 
mfmaxpower said:
Yeah, I too have my fingers crossed that complete dribbling improves some of the problems with momentum. Though if it did, I'm not sure why they wouldn't have mentioned it, at least in the webcast, considering it's a top issue for the hardcore, GCs, and much of the community, and has been a top issue for years.
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The reason why they haven't mentioned anything regarding inertia/momentum is because they haven't fixed it. Simple as that... When EA fixes something they trumpet it to the highest pitch, so that everyone and his mother knows about it.

Seems like introducing proper footplanting and a realistic inertia/momentum-model is not easily possible for EA without changing all of the gameplay surrounding it, so I guess until next-gen-Fifa it won't happen.

A major bummer for me, but I still look forward to the new AI and first-touch-improvements.
 
pes4lyfe said:
Does anyone else find the l1 precision dribble in fifa 11 pointelss and usless?
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It has it's moments, mostly the contextual elements, but overall I think the feature was pretty underwhelming, to say the least.

That said, the devs are making Complete Dribbling out to be a much bigger leap forward, akin I think to the addition of 360 dribbling. I'm not sure it could be as big an improvement as that, and you can never trust the hype, but they are making it out to be quite a change.

For me personally, when watching the webcast I was pretty underwhelmed with Complete Dribbling, but maybe that's just because I'm having trouble imagining how it will actually change things. Others, like Rom and I think Rod too, have a more optimistic opinion of Complete Dribbling though, so maybe one of them will say why.
 
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